Questions about Daystar [Archive]

IDon'tKnow

03-23-2009, 06:55 AM

In the tape recording between Sal Benoit and Witness Lee about Daystar debts.

1. That Overseas Christian Stewards an unregistered entity owned Phosphorous, I.E. the Overseas Christian Stewards which was composed of Witness Lee and two other brothers owned Phosphorous personally.

2. Phosphorous produced the Daystar motorhomes and sold them to Daystar. So when Witness Lee got the saints to invest in Daystar he was investing in a guaranteed buyer for his motorhomes.

3. Daystar went bankrupt, Phosphorous did not.

4. Daystar owed Phosphorous money (according to Witness Lee).

5. Witness Lee got Max to convince the saints to forgive the Daystar debts.

First question does the fact that Daystar still owed Phosphorous money mean that Witness Lee required the money owed to him by Daystar even after he convinced the saints to forgive those debts?

Second question given that donations from the trainings went to pay off Daystar debts. Does that mean that they went to pay off Phosphorous (I.E. Witness Lee)?

Third question, It is my understanding that the Daystar motorhomes were being sold by saints through door to door sales (I.E. using free labour). It is also my further guess that the capital for such a business would primarily be tied up in the motorhomes on hand. Therefore any debts which the company had would in all likelihood have been for the purpose of buying Motorhomes off Witness Lee. Furthermore the majority of the saints money which was invested into the business would also have gone to buy Motorhomes off Witness Lee. Therefore all (or most) moneys from Daystar would have gone to Witness Lee, K.H. Weigh, and Samuel Chang (The owners of Overseas Christian Stewards as well Phosphorous). Less the expenses for the actual construction of the motorhomes. Does this mean that Witness Lee made off with all the Daystar money?

Does this make any sense or am I merely frothing at the mouth.

Here is link to a diagram which illustrates what happened with the money (not made by me just to be clear) http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf (http://www.laymansfellowship.com/public/1970sLoanFromChurchInBoston.pdf)

Igzy

03-23-2009, 09:47 AM

Gotta love this one:

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/images/mini-home-port.jpg

Her: "Uh, no dear. Only one of us can fit at a time. Anyway, you have to drive."

Him: "But this is the way to the driver's seat."

Ohio

03-24-2009, 05:04 AM

Don Hardy, who was treasurer for Daystar in SoCal, resigned his position with the business when he realized that he was assisting in illegal operations, with money laundering schemes.

Don Rutledge, while elder in Dallas, accidentally learned that LSM had set up a secret church account under the name of the Church in Dallas in order to funnel moneys to those investors who made enough noise, and threatened to "blow the whistle" on WL.

Igzy

03-24-2009, 07:17 AM

Ohio,

I know it's not like you to spread rumors. Did you hear this firsthand?

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Ohio

03-24-2009, 01:23 PM

I read their accounts.

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Igzy

03-24-2009, 02:39 PM

Thanks for the clarification.

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djohnson

03-24-2009, 03:04 PM

IDontKnow you forgot to ask about the lady church members they asked to pose in bikinis to make advertising materials to sell the Daystar.

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IDon'tKnow

03-24-2009, 07:39 PM

I have a few more question. The investment by the saints in the Daystar business was this to be considered as a loan to Daystar or to be for the purchase of shares in the Company. I ask this because as far as I'm aware if somebody owns shares in a company if that company goes bankrupt, getting your money back is not really on the cards. All your entitled to is a share of what's left over when all the debts are paid off if their is anything. That said I'm getting the impression that Daystar never actually went bankrupt.

SB: And so then when Daystar went bankrupt ....
WL: Stopped, stopped

From transcript of Sal Benoit, Witness Lee conversation.

It seems it just stopped. Which begs more questions. Was their a reason why they could not let Daystar go bankrupt. Would it be detrimental to certain people if the accounts were able to be scrutinized by Third Parties as they undeniably would have been had the company gone bankrupt. According to Don Hardy testimony that would seem to be the case.

Secondly, after this Phosphorous definitely went on to make tennis rackets according to the recording, and at least according to another testimony by Brent Barber these tennis racquets were to be sold by saints. (I'm not certain whether the saints were supposed to invest in the racquets or not, does anyone know how daystaresque the tennis racquet scheme and future schemes were). So did Witness Lee learn anything from Daystar. After all the damage done with this first failed business scheme (actually according to reports from taiwan it would seem that this wasn't the first), he still continued.

Just to clarify, I personally at this point do not believe that Witness was deliberately setting out to fleece the saints. I do believe however that he made some horrendously bad decisions which he seems to have failed to take the lesson from. Such a failure should have truly caused him to question his own infallability and caused him to be more open to see that he truly needed the balancing of other members of the Body. Not just those who agreed with his every word.

aron

03-24-2009, 08:25 PM

I personally at this point do not believe that Witness was deliberately setting out to fleece the saints. I do believe however that he made some horrendously bad decisions which he seems to have failed to take the lesson from. Such a failure should have truly caused him to question his own infallability and caused him to be more open to see that he truly needed the balancing of other members of the Body. Not just those who agreed with his every word.

Yes, I agree. We all make bad decisions from time to time. You have, I have; we all have occasionally. Hopefully we make them less as we age. That is my goal, anyway. But we still err, occasionally, which is why the counsel of others is indispensible. To do away with the balancing words of other christian brethren would be arrogant, and folly. May God have mercy on us all!

There are 3 verses in Proverbs, which I had here on my "byline" when I began posting. Eventually I got bored with them and changed them, so I can't tell you chapter and verse. But all 3 verses said the same thing: "With a multitude of counselors there is safety". The Lee camp seem to have decided that infallibility came with highly developed doctrines. I myself coming into the LCs was impressed with "The Oracle in Anaheim", but eventually I read about Daystar and other bad decisions and I realized, belatedly, that I'd been had.

No more hero worship for me! Jesus only!

Indiana

03-24-2009, 09:46 PM

I have a question in to Don Hardy about post 15 and 16. The bikini story is something I could hardly believe, but seems it was true from what I have previously heard.

One sister that I heard was involved is, and was, a very saintly sister and, frankly, one of the most attractive and voluptuous women I had ever seen, when I first saw her in the late seventies. She would be someone you would want to hide or cover up, not put on display.

When I met with Max Rapoport in Dec 2001, he was remorseful over his experience with Daystar, especially having cooperated with WL to ask the elders to encourage the saints to waive any reimbursement by WL. He was deeply regretful. There was so much hype that this venture was of God, and so many saints lost money, that it seemed appropriate that reimbursements were in order. This, at least, is my understanding.

Igzy

03-25-2009, 03:06 PM

All sorts of cute and probably inappropriate comments are coming to mind, but I'll just wonder aloud...

If they wanted girls in bikinis why didn't they just hire models?

As Alice said, it just gets curiouser and curiouser... :justlurking:

IDon'tKnow

03-25-2009, 04:17 PM

If they wanted girls in bikinis why didn't they just hire models?

I don't have any special insight into this. But if I were to guess I would have to say probably because you have to pay models.

djohnson

03-25-2009, 07:34 PM

When you consider what else was going on, trying to convince lady church members to pose in bikinis for "God's move on the earth" seems mild in comparison.

And by the way I am not being prudish on this issue. Even the whole investment idea doesn't bother me. What is disconcerting is that it was all cloaked in false "spirituality". Why not just say: "This is strictly business. Your investment is at risk. You may lose it all. Can you afford to do that? If not you shouldn't invest." About the women how's this: "We are a business and we know sex sells. So we want to hire you to be models to stand next to the mobile home and will pay you the going rate." Then there is clarity and people can know what they are saying yes or no to.

But instead they have to disguise it all with their trademark god-talk. And base the whole thing on superstition instead of business reality i.e. "God is going to specially bless us. Why? Just because it's us!"

countmeworthy

03-25-2009, 09:20 PM

Does anyone know the names of the recruiters ? There should be a public record of this.

Paul Cox

03-25-2009, 10:54 PM

Couple of Daystar pictures on this recreational vehicle page.

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/oldmh.htm

Quote from this site:
"Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?"

If only they knew.

IDon'tKnow

03-26-2009, 01:45 AM

I think if we look at how Daystar was handled it pretty much explains how the majority of things are handled by LSM now. Rather than repenting for daystar Witness Lee and many of the leading brothers instead chose to use fleshly means to deal with the fallout. (The doing of at least borderline illegal things funnelling money into daystar constitutes fleshly and if your doing such things to deal with the fallout of your wrong doing you obviously haven't repented.)

Given that the brother's failed to trust in the Lord for the aftermath of daystar, this led to them not to trust in the Lord for the cult books, instead taking them to court and going against God's word. Instead of trusting the in the Lord for the oneness of the saints instead having to enforce a manmade political oneness.

Ohio

03-26-2009, 06:30 AM

I think if we look at how Daystar was handled it pretty much explains how the majority of things are handled by LSM now.

Knowing that Daystar investor "payouts" to upset LC "investors" occurred in the mid-70's, following some highly questionable business practices which resulted in bankruptcy, I wonder how this all escaped the prying eyes of the Thomas Nelson (publisher of Mindbenders) legal team just a few years later?

aron

03-26-2009, 07:29 AM

Given that the brother's failed to trust in the Lord for the aftermath of daystar, this led to them not to trust in the Lord for the cult books, instead taking them to court and going against God's word. Instead of trusting the in the Lord for the oneness of the saints instead having to enforce a manmade political oneness.

The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar, and it was small, and covered by much flowing of the Spirit. Many were getting saved, testimonies of lives changed were common, God was still very prevailing. Later the Spirit began to dry up, fewer and fewer new sinners came and confessed before the throne of God, and the seed began to grow and sprout. Eventually there was, for many of us, no more Spirit, just a great big tree full of the birds of the earth. We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Let us stand fast, therefore, and not be entangled again in the yoke of slavery." - Paul of Tarsus

Oregon

03-26-2009, 08:17 AM

A lot of truth in this statement Aron.

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Ohio

03-26-2009, 10:05 AM

The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar, and it was small, and covered by much flowing of the Spirit. Many were getting saved, testimonies of lives changed were common, God was still very prevailing. Later the Spirit began to dry up, fewer and fewer new sinners came and confessed before the throne of God, and the seed began to grow and sprout. Eventually there was, for many of us, no more Spirit, just a great big tree full of the birds of the earth. We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one.

I wonder how much of that flowing of the Spirit was common to all God's children at that time, in the chaotic era of the late 60's - early 70's called "Jesus people movement." Somehow the LC leaders felt that the blessing was exclusive to us, since we were the unique testimony of God on earth.

UntoHim

03-26-2009, 11:07 AM

The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar...We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one
Sorry guys, but the Local Church was never, ever any better then the "fallen Christianity" it claimed to be "recovered" from, otherwise Daystar would not have happened to begin with. As a matter of fact, we now know that this was not the first time that Witness Lee attempted to enrich himself and his sons through the fleecing of Local Church members.

We also know that Lee pulled the same shenanigans in the Far East, pilfering a number of LC members of their life savings, and now we know this is the reason that Lee decided to bless our fair land with his LC religion, and not because he cared so much for all us poor, poor blind and christless Americans.

So when discussing the Daystar debacle I think it is important to keep in mind that this was only one of many business "investment" boondoggles in which Local Churchers ended up taking a financial bath, while Lee and his sons escaped relatively unscathed.

If there is any doubt in anyone's mind about how messed up and unethical the Daystar "business" was, they need to review this:
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf (http://www.laymansfellowship.com/public/1970sLoanFromChurchInBoston.pdf)

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aron

03-26-2009, 06:11 PM

I wonder how much of that flowing of the Spirit was common to all God's children at that time, in the chaotic era of the late 60's - early 70's called "Jesus people movement." Somehow the LC leaders felt that the blessing was exclusive to us, since we were the unique testimony of God on earth.

Good point. The whole movement of the Spirit among the young people, circa 1965 - 1975, was surely not limited to the LC, but they somehow felt it was theirs because of the "ground". This notion that the spiritual blessing was proprietary to the ground of oneness taken by the LC might have led to obstinacy in the face of said blessing being removed.

When I came in, the "golden days of yore" were a fairly common topic of conversation, with the usually implied corrolary that we needed to keep doing what we once did (again, the "ground") which ostensibly had led to the outpoured Spirit in the first place. A few unchallenged assumptions in this train of thought, to be sure.

I suppose we all have error-laced trains of thought. Perhaps what allowed this particular train to drive off the bridge was the insular nature of the group. Daystar came and went, and nobody could pull the brake handle. All anyone could do was jump off.

IDon'tKnow

03-27-2009, 04:27 AM

Sorry guys, but the Local Church was never, ever any better then the "fallen Christianity" it claimed to be "recovered" from, otherwise Daystar would not have happened to begin with. As a matter of fact, we now know that this was not the first time that Witness Lee attempted to enrich himself and his sons through the fleecing of Local Church members.

I doubt he was actively out to fleece the saints. If he was I'd have to think he wouldn't have let things get to the point where he had to use LSM money to pay off daystar's debts (unless of course daystar debts were overstated in order to provide a convenient method of funneling money into overseas christian stewards). That said you are correct in that it seems that daystar was not the first time he has done this, nor was it the last. Which would seem to lead to the inescapable conclusion that either he was out to fleece the saints or he was extremely hard of hearing.

Also on the subject of the LC during the 70's. I hear alternatively about how great it was and on the other hand I hear about parent's burning there children's baby pictures. What would be the fair and balanced view of the LC's in the 70's? In particular what was the retention rate of children from the LC compared to other church's from that time?

OBW

03-27-2009, 01:00 PM

IDK,

A fair and balanced report of the 70s will be hard to come by. Each of us have perspectives, some of which will be contradictory with another’s. Since I “came in” to the LC in early 1973, I have some perspectives. Some of my view now is hindsight. But here goes.

In the 60s and 70s there were many groups that were breaking out of the standard modes of Christianity. There was an “inner life” movement, mostly in the form of people reading and listening to independent writers/speakers. There was a “charismatic” awakening going on that bled over into Baptist, Episcopal and even Catholic churches. (I recall hearing a nun making reference to the saved and unsaved priests. Interesting discussion!) By the late 70s, some of the mainstream churches were beginning to move out of the old ways, but it was still mostly within charismatic groups.

Without getting into the various peculiarities of the LC, it was mostly a group that was deep into “inner life” teachings without also having any charismatic component. But it also brought some forms that were appealing to those in Christianity that were tired of simply coming on Sundays and listening. The participative services were very appealing.

There was the form of looking at all of the scripture. (I say form because even though more than one passage was often used, the focus was still to make a point, and in hindsight I think that the inclusion of many verses from diverse places in scripture sometimes created the illusion of completeness more than any actual substance to support the positions taken.)

And these peculiar practices, like calling on the Lord, coupled with teachings that had us convinced that we were more “in spirit” than our counterparts in Christianity. Add the very community-oriented focus that put us together so much, and a sort of camaraderie was created that caused us to behave in certain ways when we were together. And it caused us to generally refrain from admitting that the rest of our lives were not consistent with this almost euphoric state we had in many meetings, unless the genre of the meeting was confessional in which case we would simply admit that our time outside of the meetings was never as good as in the meetings.

The result was a blind following. If we read where some group in Asia burned all of their occult books and things, someone would suggest that we should burn the things that stood between us and God. Since we often spoke in terms of Christ as our “first love” we would sometimes consider that any earthly love was Satanic. So if we wanted to prove our love for Christ, we would burn the things that reminded us of our tendency toward earthly loves. Unfortunately, this meant burning pictures of children and spouses. Several have testified of these. At the time we would never admit any misgivings.

But years later many have come to realize how crazy these things were. While it is true that our love for Christ must be first, that does not mean we despise everyone and everything else. At least one sister who has testified of this has also told of the problems she is now having with a daughter who was brought up in that environment.

When Jesus said we had to hate mother and brother and sister, he was not making a statement of absolutes, but using a descriptive device to emphasize position. Following Christ must be absolutely first. But it is not meant to be understood as our only love. Otherwise, we would have no way to love our neighbors as ourselves. Of course, that may explain why the LC tended to fail at loving anyone outside the LC since they actually hated anything about themselves except for the “Christ within each other.”

Last, Lee may not have been out to fleece the saints. But he was out to live off of them. And since his sons tended to be problems (and to be greedy), we had to cover for them as well. Before Daystar there were health supplements. There were also calendars. Since I left there was a cottage LSM industry of “ministry” artwork. My Dad’s house has a decent-sized study with two complete walls of bookshelves (almost all the way to the top of the 10 foot ceilings) and they are approximately 1/3 full of LSM materials. A lot of it is repetitious. That’s a lot of money for resources that only help make the reader proud of his knowledge of what Lee says (and not so much of what the scripture says).

So there are clearly two views, maybe more. There is the insider’s “everything is wonderful” view, and the former member’s view of “what the #*@^ were we doing?” And then there’s the question of what aspect you are looking at. When you look at the move away from the old-line Christian experience, there is much positive to see. But when you look at the peculiar teachings and practices that came along with it, there is much to lament.

Terry

03-27-2009, 09:02 PM

In particular what was the retention rate of children from the LC compared to other church's from that time?

What is your angle? In order to answer your question, it depends on your perspective. In the 1970's I was a K-6th grade. At that age, if you keep the parents, you keep the children. When a child turns 18, they're no longer minors yet in many way; still children. As no longer a minor, do these fall under the retention rate you're asking about?

Terry

IDon'tKnow

03-27-2009, 09:51 PM

What is your angle? In order to answer your question, it depends on your perspective. In the 1970's I was a K-6th grade. At that age, if you keep the parents, you keep the children. When a child turns 18, they're no longer minors yet in many way; still children. As no longer a minor, do these fall under the retention rate you're asking about?Yes they were who I was talking about actually. How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible? I ask this because it seems that the true spiritual health of a group could quite possibly be measured by how the children react to it. If the majority find the need to escape then my guess is that group isn't that healthy. Even the apostle Paul linked how a man cares for his children with who should become an elder.

I guess on that note.This may be a low blow, but I know that Timothy and Philip Lee caused many problems in the church. Were there similar problems with the rest of Witness's children? Also what happened to Timothy after Daystar? Did he just sought off fall of the map?

Terry

03-27-2009, 10:50 PM

Yes they were who I was talking about actually. How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible?

Each locality is different. As each locality is different, there are different circumstances. It's a difficult question to measure. Consider this some young people remain because that's where their parents meet. Some young people remain because of a vision they see in the ministry. As to those that wanted to flee away, how many young people left because of the world. How many young people left because they followed their parents out due to "circumstances" in the local churches.
Speaking for myself, I'm one who left for a time. The Lord NEVER lets HIS children go. When I yearned for Christian fellowship, I returned to the local churches because that was my comfort zone.

Terry

Ohio

03-28-2009, 06:54 AM

How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible? I ask this because it seems that the true spiritual health of a group could quite possibly be measured by how the children react to it.

This highlights perhaps the most tragic and exposing fact of the program. So many false promises were provided concerning our children, yet after all these years, we see generation after generation of our children up and leave, wanting nothing to do with the LC's. Of all the young people in our place, only one, IIRC, has remained with the program, and sadly with the recent quarantine, this one is on the LSM side.

aron

03-30-2009, 07:37 AM

How many of those who were children in the church life, found that once they turned 18 the just wanted to flee as far away as possible?

I don't have numbers, and they vary by geographic region, but the simple answer to your question would clearly be "the vast majority". In those (non-LC) fellowships I've been meeting with that put families first, the majority of children remain to fellowship with the flock after they've grown. But put the "church" first, and the children flee. Duh.

aron

03-30-2009, 11:27 AM

Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei? I was on my way out of the LCs, and meeting with them very infrequently, when one day I stopped by and saw a video being shown. They were building a 50 story building in Teipei, and it had some name like "Lotus Flower" or "Nightingale" or something. Cultural, maybe. Here we call buildings "45 Washington Place" or such.

Anyway, this was to raise $ for the propogation of the gospel through the far east, if I recall. Probably a little word was passed to the effect that there was an "opportunity" for the saints to contribute to this project, but I was disinterested at this point and barely paying attention. I wonder how that one turned out? Part of the building was supposed to be for LSM (China) offices, and part was to be rented out, with the rent being used for some Godly work.

I also remember on more than one occasion Lee speaking pointedly about the Baptists and Methodists failing in God's commission by constructing hospitals and universities. Getting entangled in the world, and all that. Our mission, said Lee, is to declare Christ, not to build buildings. Hmm...

Terry

03-30-2009, 12:48 PM

Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei?

The building project was completed. When the brothers spoke regarding this project, the base floor was for the ministry and the rest of the building would be leased out.

Terry

Ohio

03-30-2009, 04:42 PM

Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei? Anyway, this was to raise $ for the propogation of the gospel through the far east, if I recall...I also remember on more than one occasion Lee speaking pointedly about the Baptists and Methodists failing in God's commission by constructing hospitals and universities. Getting entangled in the world, and all that. Our mission, said Lee, is to declare Christ, not to build buildings. Hmm...
Aron, sure I remember that. Isn't there a plaque in the lobby with a quote from WN about the word of God alone is our standard ... as you say, "Hmm ..."

Anyone else notice, that in so many ways, how LSM has condemned others, so they are guilty of the same ... just as the Scripture saith, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." --Rom 2.1

IDon'tKnow

03-30-2009, 05:02 PM

Ohio

03-30-2009, 05:31 PM

Oh yeah.
I remember on the other forum seeing a thread about Daystar and LINKO. But Daystar was talked about on the thread pretty much to the exclusion of LINKO. All I know is that LINKO was a building project that was never constructed. When was LINKO? What was it meant to be for? Why wasn't it constructed? and where did the money go? Does anybody know anything about LINKO?

I was in Irving (probably mid 80's) when they sprung that one. I was staying at the hall between meetings after lunch and the young people were writing rah, rah songs "Let's go Linko, Let's go Linko, yeah, yeah, yeah ..." I found it hard to believe, and strange to say the least, coming from the midwest. I remember thinking that these Texas saints really were as "absolute for the ministry," as had been rumored back in Ohio.

Linko was a property outside Taipei city limits where LSM planned to purchase land and build a civic arena auditorium which could hold all the saints at one time bussed in from all Taiwan. Who knows what happened. They never informed us. Where did the money go? Good question.

Hope

03-31-2009, 09:22 AM

Linko was something that the office came up with. It was presented as an example of the wonderful God ordained leadership of the recovery. After a lot of money was raised and spent on the property and many plans made and a great hub bub made, the brilliant office learned that the land had not been approved for development and was basically useless.

I never supported this project and the young BBs promoted it as a means to humble the elders. Minuro gave a stirring speech at an elders coworkers meeting about how the elders would be blessed if they went to Linko and shoveled dirt. He promised that the Spirit would enliven you as you shoveled dirt and they would be greatly rewarded spiritually if they gave up being an elder and went to Linko to shovel dirt.

Just another boondoggle. Just another ridiculous project proposed by the office and the deputy authority. How things had changed!! Yet the Daystar fiasco was the beginning in the USA of one scheme after another which was divinely judged. We were very much like the nation of Israel. We had great victories and huge failures. Solomon built the temple and then his immorality and projects caused the nation to be divided. The Bible is faithful to record both the victories and blessings and the defeats and failures. But there is hope. The Lord is never defeated. God is faithful. What He has promised He will do. The Lord has won the victory.

I really like Rom 4:19-21, And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. NASB

Another favorite passage in these days is from the Old Testament, (I just must quote it here. We in NC have a wonderful hymn based on this passage.)

Zeph 3:9 - 20 "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder. 10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings. 11 "In that day you will feel no shame Because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; for then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain. 12 "But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. 13 "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong and tell no lies, nor will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths; for they shall feed and lie down with no one to make them tremble."
14 Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!Shout in triumph, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! 15 The LORD has taken away His judgments against you, He has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you will fear disaster no more. 16 In that day it will be said to Jerusalem: "Do not be afraid, O Zion; Do not let your hands fall limp. 17 "The LORD your God is in your midst, a victorious warrior. He will exult over you with joy, He will be quiet in His love, He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy. 18 "I will gather those who grieve about the appointed feasts — They came from you, O Zion; The reproach of exile is a burden on them. 19 "Behold, I am going to deal at that time with all your oppressors, I will save the lame And gather the outcast, and I will turn their shame into praise and renown in all the earth. 20 "At that time I will bring you in, even at the time when I gather you together; Indeed, I will give you renown and praise Among all the peoples of the earth,When I restore your fortunes before your eyes,"Says the LORD. NASB

Much Peace and Grace to all in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Hope

countmeworthy

03-31-2009, 10:01 AM

Igzy

03-31-2009, 10:43 AM

I'll probably regret asking, but what does "LINKO" mean?

YP0534

03-31-2009, 11:07 AM

I'll probably regret asking, but what does "LINKO" mean?

It's a district just outside Taipei. That's all.

aron

03-31-2009, 11:51 AM

During the Daystar, Linko projects, did the elders ask the congregation to reach into their pockets to give to these projects? The only 'project' I recall being pushed on us were the Chinese calendars w/the grotesquely, ugly fish that looked demonic to me. I think vitamins were also pushed on us but that was more word by mouth unlike the calendars which were pushed on us at the end of the messages at the meeting hall.

In my area we had special meetings where we were told that we had opportunities to contribute to projects occuring elsewhere, i.e. Anaheim. So the main (Sunday morning) meeting wasn't a tithing meeting, but in that meeting we were informed about a special meeting regarding the Lord's move elsewhere. "Big doings, saints!" Those who were curious, like myself, and showed up, got dunned.

Hope

03-31-2009, 01:21 PM

Welcome back HOPE!! :)

Question:
In the 70's when I was in San Diego, we had very, very few messages on 'tithings & offerings'. The 'collection box' was in the back of the meeting hall and we rarely heard anyone talking about placing offerings. We learned by watching people place their offerings in the box.

I believe the boxes are still at the back of the meeting halls not readily seen.

During the Daystar, Linko projects, did the elders ask the congregation to reach into their pockets to give to these projects?The only 'project' I recall being pushed on us were the Chinese calendars w/the grotesquely, ugly fish that looked demonic to me. I think vitamins were also pushed on us but that was more word by mouth unlike the calendars which were pushed on us at the end of the messages at the meeting hall.

Countmeworthy,

I would assume that every church handled these matters in their own way. In Dallas, we never presented Daystar to my knowledge even though there was a lot of talk as a brother attempted to sell them to the public and sometimes one was parked in our parking lot.

After a meeting, we permitted brother Chang to present his vitamin business. I bought some. Also we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account. I was asked to take care of the Dallas saints. I had a meeting with some of the young people and a few put in a few dollars. Unfortunately, I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.

I never mentioned Linko in Dallas but it was a big deal in Irving complete with models of the buildings to be built etc. Because the church in Dallas would not join in the cheerleading and fund raising from Irving there was more and more a strained relationship. Dallas did give money for Irving and the goal and purpose for the facility was shared. Benson came over a time or two and did some fund raising for that hall after a Lord’s table.

Usually Dallas had a sizable surplus in our bank accounts. On three occasions in Texas area elders meetings Benson and Ray put a press on Dallas to release our extra funds for Irving and LSM. We said no each time as our conscience did not agree that the money had been given by the saints for the questionable projects. This put quite a strain on our relationship.

Enough for now about these events. I am getting a little sick at my stomach.

Hope

OBW

03-31-2009, 04:37 PM

In Dallas, we never presented Daystar to my knowledge even though there was a lot of talk as a brother attempted to sell them to the public and sometimes one was parked in our parking lot.You may be correct that there was not a general public attempt to "sell" Daystar as an investment, although I have a vague remembrance of something. In any case, I know that my dad lost some money on it. How was he recruited to invest? I'm not sure I could say.

countmeworthy

03-31-2009, 04:52 PM

Countmeworthy,

I would assume that every church handled these matters in their own way... I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.

Enough for now about these events. I am getting a little sick at my stomach.
Hope

Take Heart Hope. The Word of God is true and Faithful. The Lord promises to make ALL things new. He heals our pain..sometimes it's long and drawn out in our eyes. Everything happened for a reason.

Look up. Our redemption draws nigh now.

IDon'tKnow

03-31-2009, 05:46 PM

Also we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account. I was asked to take care of the Dallas saints. I had a meeting with some of the young people and a few put in a few dollars. Unfortunately, I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.This was wrong on so many different levels. First off there is the obvious deception getting people to put their savings in with you without telling them it's going into keeping your high risk bussiness afloat. But I'd have to think that the most dissapointing aspect of this is that this deception was committed against the young people. I can imagine the sense of betrayal one might feel when going to withdraw your money and finding that sorry you can't do that it's in Daystar. I just hope they had the good sense not to try and ask the young people to sign a waver. At this point I wouldn't be certain. Either way this and anything like it would go a long way to explaining why many of the church kid's left. Betray them while their young.

Enough for now about these events. I am getting a little sick at my stomach.I'm sorry if I'm bringing more of this up for you. I understand that this was just as much a deceiving of you. They shouldn't have gotten others to cooperate with thier scheme without fully informing them as to the specifics.

YP0534

03-31-2009, 05:55 PM

If the worst thing to issue out of the Local Church in the U.S. were some money scams, I would consider that small potatoes. Not excusing, but if your heart was right and you gave as to the Lord (or can release it now on those terms) this is your gain. The problem is the exploited relationships which were utilized for the schemes and then the lack of resolution of any of the relationship problems that resulted. No one should care very much that the money itself is gone. But the damage to the Tabernacle of Testimony will be addressed by the Lord upon His return if it is not addressed properly now.

aron

03-31-2009, 06:16 PM

Take Heart Hope. The Word of God is true and Faithful. The Lord promises to make ALL things new. He heals our pain..sometimes it's long and drawn out in our eyes. Everything happened for a reason.

Look up. Our redemption draws nigh.

One of my bad habits is that I often daydream; I create a fictitious parallel "world" in my mind where I don't make any mistakes and I do everything right. If I go far back enough in my troubled history and "scrub" my troubled life ("if I only took that job, or didn't take that job") I find myself in a wonderful place, with no bills, solid investments, a beautiful shiny car, a successful career, etc, but no Christ. You see, when I do everything right I don't need God's redemption, God's salvation. Also, I find that this new "world" bothers God because in that world there are two perfect people on the earth, Jesus and aron...people start getting confused who is actually the Christ...

So eventually my reverie is broken and I go, "Naww..." I stick to being a repentant sinner. In a life full of dark storms and "wrong turns", one day I chose Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. The whole Local Church thing is merely a tempest in a teapot. It's nice to think, as I heard BP once declare, that one is in the cental lane of God's move on the earth, but that is really so much deluded presumption: it's like saying "I am an overcomer". The one who presumes to be the elite is automatically disqualified! The only thing we can be sure about is that we were sinners, and one day in a vision of God's Chosen One called us from the darkness to the light. Good enough; trust in the Lord's calling, and His mercy, and go forward.

Anyway, cmw, this is my tangenital "amen" to your post. Peace to you and grace, both now and always. ;)

Ohio

03-31-2009, 06:25 PM

... we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account ... We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM.

This is most disturbing. It's even hard for me to believe. Obviously the whole "little banker" scheme was concocted knowing full well in advance that the young saints "surplus" moneys would be used for Daystar business debts. No doubt about it, there was no accident here. Is there any way that this could not be called embezzlement?

For years I heard WL condemn all Christianity and all Christian leaders for compromising the purity of the gospel and the truth relating to money, boasting that he and his ministry alone upheld the standard pleasing to the Lord, without any trace of compromise. One verse often used by WL to support these claims was 2 Cor 2.17, "For we are not like the many, adulterating (or peddling, retailing, hawking) the word of God for profit." How can we ever excuse or coverup this blatant contradiction and hypocrisy?

What's even more troubling to me is the fact that LSM never went back and attempted to make good on their past debts. Wasn't Message #2 of the New Beginner's Series entitled "Clearance of the Past?" Right after the message, "Knowing You are Saved." Why doesn't that message apply to LSM too?

At the time LSM purchased that huge La Palma Campus, the price tag was $30 plus million dollars, with 1/3 from Taiwan, 1/3 from the US churches (remember that $2,000 quota per offering unit!), and 1/3 from LSM's cash reserves. If LSM had over $10 million in cash reserves, (and how did they ever come up with that?!?) why couldn't they go back and make good on bad debt? Practice what they preach and clear the past?

Terry

03-31-2009, 06:57 PM

At the time LSM purchased that huge La Palma Campus, the price tag was $30 plus million dollars, with 1/3 from Taiwan, 1/3 from the US churches (remember that $2,000 quota per offering unit!), and 1/3 from LSM's cash reserves. If LSM had over $10 million in cash reserves, (and how did they ever come up with that?!?) why couldn't they go back and make good on bad debt? Practice what they preach and clear the past?

Ohio, in order to answer your question you need to adjust your thinking. Living Stream is a ministry, but it is also a business. As a business, it needs profitability to function long term. One may say, "no it's a non-profit". As a religious organization it has non-profit tax status, but it's a business that operates in the black. So, I suggest Living Stream is primarily a business functioning as a ministry.

Terry

Ohio

03-31-2009, 08:13 PM

Terry

03-31-2009, 08:55 PM

This is most disturbing. It's even hard for me to believe. Obviously the whole "little banker" scheme was concocted knowing full well in advance that the young saints "surplus" moneys would be used for Daystar business debts. No doubt about it, there was no accident here. Is there any way that this could not be called embezzlement?

One verse often used by WL to support these claims was 2 Cor 2.17, "For we are not like the many, adulterating (or peddling, retailing, hawking) the word of God for profit." How can we ever excuse or coverup this blatant contradiction and hypocrisy?

Practice what they preach and clear the past?

I had never heard of the little banker scheme. Saints are really like sheep. Trusting those responsible for the flock would not conduct themselves as those in the world would. Embezzlement? Whatever happened to following business law and business ethics?
What would happen if a brother privy to violations of business ethics protested?

Practice what they preach and clear the past? It would be in the best interest of wounded members of the Body, but not in the best interest of certain individuals.

Terry

Igzy

04-01-2009, 07:28 AM

Ohio, in order to answer your question you need to adjust your thinking. Living Stream is a ministry, but it is also a business. As a business, it needs profitability to function long term. One may say, "no it's a non-profit". As a religious organization it has non-profit tax status, but it's a business that operates in the black. So, I suggest Living Stream is primarily a business functioning as a ministry.

Terry

I work for a non-profit organization. People have misconceptions about them because "non-profit" is a misnomer. A non-profit needs to be profitable like any business or it will go out of businesss. The difference is all profits must be plowed back into the business.

For-profit businesses exist to provide profit for owners or shareholders. Non-profits exist to provide some sort of service. But they can provide a profitable living for employees, and surplus earnings can be invested. The primary difference is that non-profits cannot issue stock or dividends.

djohnson

04-01-2009, 10:37 AM

I know of at least two people who would not forgive the loans they made to the Daystar debacle and expected repayment i.e. Lee tried to get them to sign off on a forgiveness document and they refused. Before that they were apparently quite influential and high profile in Lee's church. After that they were relegated to the back 40. Both eventually left that crazy place.

djohnson

04-01-2009, 10:45 AM

Ohio I think what Igzy is saying is: Daystar was a for profit enterprise. LSM is a non-profit enterprise. Technically speaking LSM must plow it's profits back into it's legit ministry activities ("legit" being often loosely defined by non-profits). Paying back the debt incurred by Daystar is not one of these activities. However Lee personally as a matter of good will and integrity could have paid back the debt.

Ohio

04-01-2009, 11:07 AM

Ohio, I think what Igzy is saying is: Daystar was a for profit enterprise. LSM is a non-profit enterprise. Technically speaking LSM must plow it's profits back into it's legit ministry activities ("legit" being often loosely defined by non-profits). Paying back the debt incurred by Daystar is not one of these activities. However Lee personally as a matter of good will and integrity could have paid back the debt.

djohnson, I understand the difference between the two enterprises, and I have no problem with NFP's making money and prospering -- but that was not my point.

In the "little banker" scheme, saints entrusted LSM with their savings, in lieu of a local chartered credit union. There was a level of trust which the flock of God had placed in the elders and the ministry. These moneys were recorded and forwarded by the LC's to LSM, which then transferred (illegally?) the moneys out of LSM accounts to other accounts (like the church in Dallas!) in order to pay Daystar business debts. Thus LSM was temporarily "broke," and requested the saints to consider their deposits as "offerings," by signing a forgiveness document. This is way different than investing in Daystar directly!

Here's my point: When LSM later became more "profitable," why did they not go back and reimburse with interest all of those initial depositors.

countmeworthy

04-01-2009, 12:23 PM

djohnson

04-01-2009, 12:35 PM

Sorry for my misunderstanding Ohio. So they were using the LSM and the Lee church in Dallas as conduit accounts?

But as I understand it they also took equity investment and loan monies directly into Daystar. Is that correct?

Obviously the whole thing from start to finish was a mismanaged mess without full disclosure as to the risk level and shrouded in the cloak of false spirituality. At the time the Lee church elders were pitchmen for Daystar investments. Now they are pitchmen for books and conferences of the LSM. Same role different product. How they allowed themselves to be reduced to such a level is beyond me. Sad really.

Terry

04-01-2009, 12:51 PM

Terry

04-01-2009, 01:01 PM

I work for a non-profit organization. People have misconceptions about them because "non-profit" is a misnomer. A non-profit needs to be profitable like any business or it will go out of businesss. The difference is all profits must be plowed back into the business.

For-profit businesses exist to provide profit for owners or shareholders. Non-profits exist to provide some sort of service. But they can provide a profitable living for employees, and surplus earnings can be invested. The primary difference is that non-profits cannot issue stock or dividends.

Igzy, if you were to compare ministries to ministries how would you differentiate Living Stream to Lifeway or to Stephen Kaung's ministry?

Why would someone such as myself refer to Living Stream as a business first ministry and not apply the same description to these other ministries?

Terry

Igzy

04-01-2009, 02:14 PM

Igzy, if you were to compare ministries to ministries how would you differentiate Living Stream to Lifeway or to Stephen Kaung's ministry?

Why would someone such as myself refer to Living Stream as a business first ministry and not apply the same description to these other ministries?

Terry

Terry,

I couldn't say because I know nothing about the business end of those other ministries.

However, again, there is nothing legally wrong with a non-profit/not-for-profit making a profit. In the case of ministries, it really comes down to ethics. Should, for example, Joyce Myers' non-profit pay her such a huge salary? Ultimately it comes down to potential followers of that ministry deciding whether or not the organizations's handing of finances passes muster.

However, dj is probably right, it is probably illegal for a not-for-profit company's monies to be funneled to pay the debts of a for-profit company.

Paul Cox

04-01-2009, 09:50 PM

As I'm reading through the Daystar, Linko, & 'little banker' schemes, how is it that the LSM meetings/conferences/trainings continue to talk about the "Lord's work" via messages on biblical topics ?

Are they THAT deceived they think they have done nothing wrong? They came up with Daystar, Linko and the 'little banker' schemes.

Btw, they now have these motor homes touring the country touting 'Bibles for America'. I wonder if they're making money or losing money. Anyone know?

My question is serious. For those who left in the last few years and were there throughout these schemes, did the leaders never show any kind of embarrassment or remorse for misleading the church?

Do they not take any responsibility at all?

A group of people who are brainwashed into believing that whatever they do has the blessing of God is a scary thing. They have not taken responsibility for any wrong doing, and never will, because they are fully convinced that they did no wrong.

Anything that we see as wrong is, to them, an issue of the ends justifying the means. You will notice how they use the Bible as a law book, always coming up with some kind of loop hole to explain whatever it is that they have decided is a part of "God's Move on the Earth."

Make no mistake about it, the inquisitioners of the dark ages had the same mindset. Remember the story about a group of Peter Waldo followers (I think) being rounded up in France into a barn? The cleric overseeing the proceedings said something to the effect of, "Burn them all, the Lord will decide which are His." Scary stuff - "God's Move on the Earth," "Apostle for the Age," "Acting God" - truly scary stuff.

Roger

IDon'tKnow

04-01-2009, 09:51 PM

It's interesting to put these happenings in context with the happenings in the eighties.

In the seventies Witness Lee encouraged the saints to invest in Daystar a company which was to buy it's merchandise exclusively from Witness Lee's own company. Daystar later failed. According to the Daystar accountant

Brother Lee and many leading ones faced potential criminal and civil penalties for violating state and federal securities laws and were in desperate need of re-paying those who had lost their life savings and were threatening to contact authorities because they believed there had been lies and misrepresentations.

The Mutation of Deputy Authority in the Lord’s Recovery, page 21I assume that this would probably be the motive behind funneling funds from the not-for-profit LSM to the for-profit Daystar, further compounding the offenses. Add to this that previous to this were many other failed business ventures, and after this the Phosphorous factory was converted to making tennis racquets to sell to the saints. We can see one a huge mistake on the part of Witness Lee (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't simply a scam) and further a marked inability to learn from these mistakes.

Fast forward 10 years and this person is saying things such as.

“I love you and I take you as my husband, but whatever you say I have to bring to the Lord to see if it is really His leading for me. I need to pray to find out whether I should take your word wholly or in part and whether it fits in with my situation.” If a wife had this attitude, how would her husband feel? Her attitude is a kind of subtle dissension, and her husband would not be able to tolerate it forever. I have been tolerating such an attitude from some, though, for the past fifteen years, but my toleration has ended."

Elder's training book 7, message 4.and according to John Ingalls

Brother Lee strongly vindicated the way he had taken against all criticisms. He drew a line; any who would not take this way, he said, are "dropouts", and the Lord will have no mercy. Addressing the brothers, he said that none of them understood what he was doing. None knew what he was doing in Taipei; hence there was no one that he could fellowship with. When I went to Taipei, he said, I did not fellowship with one person concerning what I was going to do. He continued: None of you is perfected. Who can say that he is perfected? So you are not qualified to criticize what I am doing. I didn’t include you in my fellowship – how can I? So let there be no more talk about anything I do. You criticize my young trainers in Taipei, telling me their mistakes, but I was doing everything; what they did was to carry out my burden.

Speaking the truth in Love, John IngallsHow can a person who made such a huge mistake after he had supposedly been the minister of the age for 20 years, come out and suggest that his will should be taken 100% not only without the need for prayer but that actually to pray whether to take it would be an act of dissent?

Mistakes are to be expected in our christian life but we should learn from them. Did Witness Lee learn anything from Daystar? Did the recovery? Personally I believe that if Witness had learned from Daystar he would have learned that on his own he is perfectly capable of making decisions which jeopardise the entire recovery (Imagine if criminal proceeding had been brought), and as such he needed the fellowship of the brothers, he needed the balancing of the Body, he needed the protection of the Body, and as such would not have been able to just sweep aside the cares and concerns of the other brothers and sisters. Furthermore the recovery should have learned better than to receive this teaching from Lee that he was to be followed in such a way.

I have to question the spirituality of a person and a group which can do this. It seems like Witness had his pre-conceived notion (I am the wise master builder destined to carryout/oversea/whatever God's building on the earth) and nothing either God or man could do could persuade him otherwise. If when you come to the Lord he cannot right you on such things are you truly coming to the Lord. I think this is why the Lord said in John 4:24 "those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truthfullness." If we attempt to come to the Lord and are not willing to be completely honest, and to truly accept His leading whatever it may be then I believe we are essentially just praying to ourselves. I know for me at least this is something which I will hopefully be truly reminded of again and again throughout my life.

Hope

04-02-2009, 07:57 AM

We all are full of personal contradictions. To practice what we preach is not easy. Idon’tknow has merely pointed out , rightly so, some of the many personal contradictions of what Brother Lee preached and what he practiced. In the same way, I could point out many personal contradictions in Benson Phillips. Most of the BBs are a barrel full of contradictions. The PROBLEM IS THEIR CONCEPTS OF “DEPUTY AUTHORITY” AND THE EXCLUSIVE “GOD’S MOVE ON THE EARTH,” “VISION OF THE AGE,” and all of the various permutations. If an individual saint buys into this malarkey, then they are way out on a limb and scheduled for a big disappointment and disillusionment.

I recall a conversation with Witness Lee regarding the American character and his failure to take this factor into consideration. Witness Lee told me that he had learned that Americans are susceptible to “hero worship.” They do not critically consider what their leaders may propose. He believed that some of his wrong headed ideas had gotten support due to this flaw in the American character and that he needed to be careful not to take advantage of this weakness. Yet we know he repeatedly took advantage of this American characteristic.

On another occasion, after the DayStar failure, he apologized to me for his terrible mistake. He told me that Watchman Nee had warned him never to mix business with the church but that he had done it anyway. He said if he had to face Watchman Nee he would not know what to say. He would have “no face left.” He then added that I should not follow him, WL, but rather be true to the “vision.” I assured him that I was not following him personally, but rather the “vision.” Of course, I never forgot that particular conversation. I considered it a lot. I determined never to be caught following a personality but to seek to follow only the Lord and the truth in the Word of God. Of course, I have had many failures but eventually the violations against the truth and against the saints of God forced me to take another way in order to be true to the Lord and to my conscience.

I propose that as we discuss the personal failures and contradictions of WL and the local churches, we keep a cool spirit and attempt to recognize both sides. There is no need to be scandalized because we can see outrageous contradictions. Anytime a person is set up as the “end all to end all,” contradictions will more than abound. To assist those caught in the system, they must be relieved of the incredibly strong loyalty bond to the “special personalities.” It is because the contradictions and shortcomings of the leadership were allowed to go unchecked that the big mess and damage has occurred. Therefore, I believe that if this exercise is carried out in a proper spirit the innocent can be helped to escape the terrible grip of “Deputy Authority.”

Hope

Terry

04-02-2009, 12:50 PM

On another occasion, after the DayStar failure, he apologized to me for his terrible mistake. He told me that Watchman Nee had warned him never to mix business with the church but that he had done it anyway. He said if he had to face Watchman Nee he would not know what to say. He would have “no face left.” He then added that I should not follow him, WL, but rather be true to the “vision.” I assured him that I was not following him personally, but rather the “vision.”

What exactly is the "vision"? It has been a catch phrase without knowing it's definition?
The "vision" you and Witness Lee were talking about, I don't believe is the same vision spoken today. The "vision" I have heard spoken recently is intertwined with Witness Lee's ministry.

Terry

Terry

04-02-2009, 12:59 PM

Terry,

I couldn't say because I know nothing about the business end of those other ministries.

However, again, there is nothing legally wrong with a non-profit/not-for-profit making a profit. In the case of ministries, it really comes down to ethics.

Igzy, I agree with you to a point. There is nothing wrong with non-profit's making a profit. For example I'd have no problem if Living Stream did as Lifeway does and sets up a Christian bookstore in an outdoor mall. Selling Christian books of multiple ministries.
What price is profitability worth? You cannot price the Lord's testimony. It is pure and perfect.
Yet quarantines and lawsuits are business decisions first and foremost while portrayed as ministry decisions.

Terry

Igzy

04-02-2009, 02:29 PM

I propose that as we discuss the personal failures and contradictions of WL and the local churches, we keep a cool spirit and attempt to recognize both sides. There is no need to be scandalized because we can see outrageous contradictions. Anytime a person is set up as the “end all to end all,” contradictions will more than abound. To assist those caught in the system, they must be relieved of the incredibly strong loyalty bond to the “special personalities.”

Hope

Well said.

IDon'tKnow

04-02-2009, 05:40 PM

The PROBLEM IS THEIR CONCEPTS OF “DEPUTY AUTHORITY” AND THE EXCLUSIVE “GOD’S MOVE ON THE EARTH,” “VISION OF THE AGE,” and all of the various permutations.

Agreed I would say that this is the point where the error changes from merely being an error into being a system of error.

IDon'tKnow

04-03-2009, 06:00 PM

Knowing that Daystar investor "payouts" to upset LC "investors" occurred in the mid-70's, following some highly questionable business practices which resulted in bankruptcy, I wonder how this all escaped the prying eyes of the Thomas Nelson (publisher of Mindbenders) legal team just a few years later?

I think this could probably be considered one of the biggest proofs that the Mindbenders wasn't very well researched. After all Daystar would have been a gold nugget making their case. Also something which you should keep in mind is that at least by the time that Sal Benoit made his tape recording daystar had not gone bankrupt. It would seem that Witness Lee would not allow this to happen and that He funneled money out of LSM into daystar to prevent this from happening. Therefore I'm guessing there wouldn't be any obvious documents of a bankruptcy lying around. To find out about it they probably would have had to hunt down and interview ex-members.

IDon'tKnow

04-06-2009, 10:43 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but Daystar was originally owned by other people and then bought by the saints. I was wondering does anybody know who originally owned it and what was bought. In particular If we were to investigate would we find that Daystar was originally owned by friends of Timothy Lee? Second of all did the saints really need to buy an existing business seeing as how the factory was already owned seperately by Phosphorous (unless of course the factory was originally a part of Daystar which would be interesting).

OBW

04-07-2009, 06:44 AM

The history of the Daystar project is fuzzy to me in some ways now. But I recall that there was talk of it as something not yet done when it was first “sold.” I really wish someone who specifically remembers how it was talked-up in Dallas could remember things about it. Don has not recalled any church time being given to it. I wonder if it was some discussion that occurred after a meeting.

In any case, few companies are entirely created out of the air by its investors. Assuming a corporation, it usually is created by a lawyer with a funny name. Someone comes along and says “I need a corporation” and finds it “on the shelf” at the lawyer’s office, buys it, and renames it. Then changes are made to its charter to match the requirements of the new venture, then actual capital and other property is contributed to it so it can begin business. So the idea that Timothy Lee or the owners of Phosphorus, or even Phosphorus itself owned Daystar before the saints invested is not, of itself, proof of shenanigans. You must look into all relationships between the companies once in operation, and find evidence of non arms-length transactions, transactions directed by people with conflict of interest, etc.

As for timing, I recall that one brother went from Dallas for a period of time to work on the things. I don’t recall if it was to actually build them, or to correct some aspects of their manufacture before they could hit the US markets. I also was at a brother’s house (Colley Joseph?) when Bob Bynum drove one of those things into Dallas, arriving at about dinner time. When the engine was turned off, it dieseled for about 30 seconds before going silent. Even though that was a common phenomenon for many large V8 engines of the day, I thought it was odd for one that was supposed to be so new. That told me that the process of driving it the 1,500 miles from the West coast had already taken a toll. I really don’t recall seeing that one or any others again, although some have reflected upon it being parked in the parking lot at the meeting hall (behind the “big house”).

To me, one of the biggest questions is why anyone would think that they could get into the RV business, even to own a dealership, and much less to build them. Someone was smoking something funny, or thought they could use something no one would really know anything about to bamboozle a bunch of trusting sheep into investing...

Hope

04-07-2009, 11:19 AM

My first conversation regarding Daystar occurred in the Magnolia House in LA around 1970-71 summer time. Frank Deluna’s wife had inherited some money. He was looking to start a business. He and Tim Lee had come up with the idea of selling expensive exclusive motor homes. They were in the very early stages. I was in sales and very interested in running my own business. I was curious as to what I could learn. Frank and I spoke for about an hour on the porch.

A few days later, I happened to be in a group conversation with WL. The conversation went to the spreading of the local churches and the need for some of the brothers to serve full time and the need for funds to acquire adequate property. Since we were primarily a very young group, there was little surplus for any projects. WL mentioned the business that Tim and Frank were starting. He felt it “matched us,” what ever that meant I am not sure but those were his words. He then went on to share how he believed that the best way was to build the coach ourselves. He believed they could be manufactured in Taiwan which would provide jobs for the saints and resources for the Lord’s work in the Far East. Then they could be sold to wealthy Americans and by eliminating other entities, (that is keeping everything within the circle of the local churches) a substantial profit could be made on each unit. He went on to add that saints in the USA and Taiwan and Manila could invest for their own profit and provide a source of revenue for the “Lord’s Work.” He wanted to dedicate 35% of the profit for “the work.” 35% of the profit would go to the investors and I do not recall exactly what was to happen to the final 30% perhaps it was to go for the work in the Far East.

The project moved very quickly from there. Within about three years, a factory had been built in Taiwan and a facility for finishing the coaches had been acquired and put into operation in Orange county. The only problem was there were no buyers and we were in the midst of the oil embargo. The project did not last very long. I was very close to Bob Bynum, who sold the coaches in the Southwest. We knew it was a real losing boondoggle. I was with him quite a bit as he evaluated the product and market. Very BLEAK. Max Rapaport became the President and quit his job to run Daystar. He told me that “if there is a market for the Daystar, it is sitting on the head of a pin.”

About this time, I was in a conversation with James Barber. James was very enthusiastic about the whole venture and had invested in the business. I told him my opinion and how hopeless it appeared to me. His response was that even if I was correct, WL was God’s man for today and the Lord would bless it anyway. I was in more than one conversation where some brother expressed this superstition.

In my opinion, it was something that got way out of hand and took on a life of its on. People were extremely enthusiastic and optimistic about the project. WL did not have to do much to persuade the saints to invest. Every pitch I ever heard was off line from a regular meeting and whoever was directing the meeting was very careful to give a disclaimer at the beginning that the Daystar business was a business and not a part of the church but that it was owned and run exclusively by brothers and sisters in the local churches.

Hope

IDon'tKnow

04-07-2009, 08:01 PM

Thank you hope for clearing up a misconception I had about Daystar.

Something else I was interested in seems to be that generally on this or the other forum I get the general impression that the Daystar's were not very good vehicles, on the RV forums I here things like.

In the mid 1970's I happend to come across the people that were forming the company. And happened to speek to it;'s presdnt.
The Daystar was the gem of all motorhomes built both then and now. Yes you could compair it agaist a Provost but that is as an apple to an orange.
Daystars I think were only 26' long. I would Deffinetly try to find & buy one, I heard that ultimely only 10 were produced. It was the right Motorhome built at the wrong time. Gasoline shortages with long lines around the block, the rich opting for hotels instead of R.V.'s etc.
More later if I remember.
Herb
Could somebody give me a clearer impression of what the Daystar RV was like.

Hope

04-08-2009, 07:16 AM

Quality of the Daystar unit.

It had pluses and minuses. It was designed by an elderly gentleman who had designed the original Coke delivery trucks. Many in the RV community did not like the design and believed it did not match the time. The interior was spectacular. Marble counter tops. Teak wood. Soft Cadillac leather. The body was core 10 steel. This made it safer than a tank but also put it at the limit of weight. The problem was that paint did not bond well to the shell. Several of the units began to shed paint. I saw one in Austin, it had been sold, but it looked like a mangy dog.

The main problem was the price. They had originally been priced at around 60k. A handsome sum in 1973-74. Eventually I believe the units that sold sold for around 30k. There were a dozen or so shells at the plant in Orange County which were never finished out and were sold for the steel.

No one was the same after Daystar. WL has said that the recovery lost its virginity. At least there was a loss of the Lord’s presence and the glow that had been with many began to fade. The simplicity and purity was gone. LSM became a business. Fees were charged for conferences. Some who served full time began to receive a salary. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” The push for “good material” began. We had a call for the gospel song that had a line that went, “To the beaches, the parks or where ever we may.” This song ceased to be sung. The highways and byways were replaced with go the campus and bring in the good material. So. California was never the same in spite of great effort to recapture the era of blessing and glory.

Hope

countmeworthy

04-08-2009, 09:04 AM

No one was the same after Daystar. WL has said that the recovery lost its virginity. At least there was a loss of the Lord’s presence and the glow that had been with many began to fade. The simplicity and purity was gone. LSM became a business. Fees were charged for conferences. Some who served full time began to receive a salary. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” The push for “good material” began. We had a call for the gospel song that had a line that went, “To the beaches, the parks or where ever we may.” This song ceased to be sung. The highways and byways were replaced with go the campus and bring in the good material. So. California was never the same in spite of great effort to recapture the era of blessing and glory.
Hope

Well...there's PART of my answer on how one moved up the LSM/LC totem pole. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” It never was about true 'growth & maturity in Christ' was it? :rollingeyesfrown:

The more I read about Lee, the more I see what a complex person he was. Seems like he was really torn between serving/honoring the Lord and the call on his life AND living in the flesh.
You wrote Lee said the Recovery had lost its' virginity. Who did he blame? Was he not at the HELM of the 'Recovery'? Did he not take any personal responsibility for its' demise? Did he care more about the organization than the LORD HIMSELF?

And how could he write the Life messages which spoke so much of the LORD Jesus? (But they also spoke a LOT about 'the church'---the LC church)
How true it went the way of the campus way....it still holds true today...what a shame. I'm so glad God has not given up on the older people. I've led my high school best friend to the Lord who is in her 50s. And I've led the parents of another friend who are in their 80s to the Lord too. (NOT tooting my horn here...just making a point God still is after and loves 'older people' not just the college 'good material'.) Btw, I'm a college 'drop out'. :D...and so are my friends I've led to the Lord.

Hope

04-08-2009, 10:17 AM

Well...there's PART of my answer on how one moved up the LSM/LC totem pole. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” It never was about true 'growth & maturity in Christ' was it? :rollingeyesfrown:

Dear cmw,

I like to avoid absolute statements like "It never was about true growth and maturity in Christ." Function based on growth and maturity were often manifested in many local churches. But over time a "totem pole" (to use your term) began to be erected. The glorious mystery of the functioning Body of Christ began to be replaced by a system with a leadership structure and organizational set of goals. It has become very similar to the mega church movement where some gifted leaders seek to organize and package God's work on the earth.

Hope

Ohio

04-08-2009, 10:37 AM

You wrote Lee said the Recovery had lost its' virginity. Who did he blame? Was he not at the HELM of the 'Recovery'? Did he not take any personal responsibility for its' demise? Did he care more about the organization than the LORD HIMSELF?

I have to believe the Daystar fiasco was entered upon with a certain amount of naivety and delusions of God's blessings ... maybe I give WL some credit for examining various avenues for supporting workers and building meeting halls ... at least he tried ...

But, for WL to make this statement about the saints losing their virginity over Daystar, assigning blame to them and accepting no accountability himself for the disaster, which he even later called a "cancer on the recovery," is to me ... plain and simple ... totally inexcusable ... for any servant of the Lord.

Last night I just happened to see Jimmy Swaggert on TV to my surprise ... at one time totally disgraced in failure ... kind of similar to King David ... yet he shamefully repented with many tears ... and it seems the Lord has restored some of his ministry. WL ... otoh ... all too often blamed others for what he should have taken ownership for.

countmeworthy

04-08-2009, 11:21 AM

Dear cmw,

I like to avoid absolute statements like "It never was about true growth and maturity in Christ." Function based on growth and maturity were often manifested in many local churches. But over time a "totem pole" (to use your term) began to be erected. The glorious mystery of the functioning Body of Christ began to be replaced by a system with a leadership structure and organizational set of goals. It has become very similar to the mega church movement where some gifted leaders seek to organize and package God's work on the earth.
Hope
I recant and apologize for not clarifying my thoughts. I ought to have been more careful when I wrote that statement.

I was generalizing the LSM institution as a whole. In my 'locality', the elders in San Diego were mature in Christ & in the Word of God...not merely in the ways of the LC under Lee's ministry. Obviously, you and many others were/are in a position of authority and are mature in Christ.

I'm sure there were many, many qualified Shepherds in the LC throughout the U.S. and abroad. Same thing with Christians who are not in 'leadership'. There are many mature, strong, steadfast. And there are many carnal, weak and lukewarm.

I was focusing on the big picture. Sorry.

IDon'tKnow

04-08-2009, 06:19 PM

Hi I believe I'm just venting here. But has anyone noticed that for all the talk about building and taking heed to how we build. Gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble. With Daystar (or rather the clean up) we have a prime example of building with wood. When the Brother Lee decided to launder (if that is the correct term) money through the churches to pay of Daystar debts, he was not just saving himself by exercising his flesh. He was teaching all the Co-workers involved this to the younger coworkers. They would have essentially been taught that it was essentially okay to perform such things when it was neccessary to do so to protect the church, rather than being constrained by the Lord and having faith that he was soveriegn in the situation (If you had faith like a mustard seed you wouldn't have to launder money to get yourself out of the toilet). I believe that this would have essentially been built into to these leading ones which they probably have then built into other leading ones. Does this lead to a situation like with babylon in Rev 18:16 "... and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls". Where if you were to look at the outward appearance it looked like the thing was constructed of gold, precious stones and pearls. But if you were to look at the inward structure of the building everything is being held up by Wood, Grass, Stubble.

Ohio

04-08-2009, 07:56 PM

(If you had faith like a mustard seed you wouldn't have to launder money to get yourself out of the toilet).

Interesting thought IDK ... actually there's very little faith left in the program, but you bring up a bigger point ... what materials were used for building in the LC's? We heard for years that the Lord's Recovery was built with ONLY gold, silver, and precious stones ... now I wonder if there was any at all.

countmeworthy

04-08-2009, 09:03 PM

Interesting thought IDK ... actually there's very little faith left in the program, but you bring up a bigger point ... what materials were used for building in the LC's? We heard for years that the Lord's Recovery was built with ONLY gold, silver, and precious stones ... now I wonder if there was any at all.

Now. Now, Ohio. Don't go throwing out the baby with the bath water! Perhaps there is a lot of wood, hay & stubble in the LC...and maybe always was but there are individuals in the LC..that are made from Gold (Divinity) Silver (Redemption) and Precious stones. Same goes for those in 'Christianity'. The Universal church has both Gold, Silver and Precious stones AND Wood, Hay and Stubble. The wheat & the tares.

(sigh).

OBW

04-09-2009, 06:47 AM

Now. Now, Ohio. Don't go throwing out the baby with the bath water! Perhaps there is a lot of wood, hay & stubble in the LC...and maybe always was but there are individuals in the LC..that are made from Gold (Divinity) Silver (Redemption) and Precious stones. Same goes for those in 'Christianity'. The Universal church has both Gold, Silver and Precious stones AND Wood, Hay and Stubble. The wheat & the tares.

(sigh).Don't give Ohio such a hard time. Virtually the only babies in the bathwater of the LC are the people. And too many of them are covered in years of bathwater that has affected how they react to the world outside their bathwater. Yes, they are dear ones of God. And fellowship with them can be good when they are willing to do it without their peculiar lingo (part of the bathwater). They need to get out of that bathwater, be washed in pure water, dried off, and some lotion put on their skin to begin to replenish the oils that make the skin healthy. (Talk about taking a metaphor to an extreme!)

countmeworthy

04-09-2009, 07:05 AM

Don't give Ohio such a hard time. Virtually the only babies in the bathwater of the LC are the people. And too many of them are covered in years of bathwater that has affected how they react to the world outside their bathwater. Yes, they are dear ones of God. And fellowship with them can be good when they are willing to do it without their peculiar lingo (part of the bathwater). They need to get out of that bathwater, be washed in pure water, dried off, and some lotion put on their skin to begin to replenish the oils that make the skin healthy. (Talk about taking a metaphor to an extreme!)

OBW,
Ohio wondered if there had ever been any gold, silver, precious stones in the LC. I was making a point there was. I am thankful for my time there. I grew, I got the Word into me, I learned the basics of sharing the gospel and building up the Body of Christ. I learned it there. That was Gold, Silver & Precious stones. You, Ohio, and just about everyone on this forum got much of the Gold, Silver & Precious Stones while in the LC.

But certainly there was a LOT more wood, hay & stubble. As you pointed out, the peculiar lingo, the 'look', the mannerisms, was wood, hay & stubble, and even worst was the shennigans with Daystar, the exclusive use of the RcV, the HWMR & other projects....surely that is all wood, hay & stubble.

That is why we are no longer there.

OBW

04-09-2009, 07:19 AM

I was really just pointing out that, while we hay have grown in our times in the LC, and we may have learned things that we did not know before, the only positive things that seem to come out of the LC are the people and the teachings that are also found elsewhere. Those teachings may have been less prominent in the 60s and 70s in other places, but they were never the sole domain of the LC.

While I can admit that a good part of what I learned there was worthy of keeping, I now realize that those parts were not peculiar to the LC. The only thing that I took with me from the LC that was not already in Christianity was myself. (That sounds funny because it seems to say that the LC is not in Christianity. But from their perspective, they are not.)

Ohio

04-09-2009, 02:25 PM

IDon'tKnow

04-09-2009, 06:24 PM

There has been focus on Daystar and it's nebulous history. What about the saints that were stumbled? Was there any concern for those that lost heart over how the Daystar situation was handled?
I realize it's been 35 years since and many meeting in the local churches came in after Daystar. Still there is a number meeting who can recall. Instead of searching for the one lost coin, it's swept out the door so the wind can blow the coin where it may.
This episode in history should be a learning experience and which direction not to take.

Terry

Terry

I see your point it is very easy for us to say when others are stumbled that they needed to take the cross and that it is their loss. But we also have to see that if it were that easy then the Lord would have returned 2000 years ago. I don't really know how to say this but I guess that if we find that in order to protect the fold we cannot repent to and look after the lost one, then in essence we have sacrificed the fold already because the fold then simply becomes a collection of sheep of which anyone could be sacrificed at enemy time for the greater good. (At this point this is just musing I'm not certain where I am with this).

Anyway does anyone no the story behind this. I.E. those who were discouraged over Daystar, how were they treated. Was their any kind of public repentance or was just a situation where all involved were expected to go on as if nothing had happened.

IDon'tKnow

04-24-2009, 05:02 AM

Another question I would wonder about daystar is this. Was it an influence in the 70's rebellion? And if so how direct?

My primary reason for thinking this is because if I'm not mistaken LSM money would have been, being funnelled through the churches to pay of daystar debts at this point. (Given that from memory in the OT Judah was considered as being guilty of fornication for relying on egypt for chariots and such (protection) instead of in Jehovah, I wonder whether this could be considered a form of spiritual prostitution). So it could be considered that the rebellion may have been a sort of punishment for this (possibly also the cult books). Second of all given that Max was probably the one who got Sal to tape the phone conversation with Lee he almost certainly knew about what was going on with the Daystar debts. Could his knowing about such blatant unrighteousness caused him to act in a way which he would not have done otherwise. (I'm not saying that he was justified in trying to make himself king but rather that seeing such hypocrisy and being involved in it may have made him more capable of rationalizing unrighteous actions.)