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| 05-30-2020 06:52 AM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
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| 05-29-2020 02:16 PM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Nell |
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| 05-29-2020 01:50 PM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
 Sorry, but I thought I was answering it in my way, but obviously not to your satisfaction.Yes, that's my personal hypothesis/guess, for what it's worth. (but I'm a man, so what can you really expect of me?) |
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| 05-29-2020 12:58 PM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Refering to your statement above, my question is, do you believe "women are more easily deceived" because of her emotions? Do you believe some form of "emotions=deceived"? Nell |
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| 05-29-2020 12:28 PM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Quote:
This wise administration is according to supplying their need and provide for their protection. Why? Because there is weakness. Man isn't able to do this alone and needs the Lord. Woman can't do this alone and needs the man. Children (this is the most obvious) need protection big time, and have both parents (ideally). This is the loving arrangement in God's household . . . for a good reason - for the proper care of everyone and to cover their weaknesses. |
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| 05-29-2020 11:51 AM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Nell |
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| 05-29-2020 11:35 AM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Yet women are targeted. Women are stereotyped and punished. I don’t disagree with your comments. I asked SoG a question because of his comment. I would like to know where he’s coming from. Nell |
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| 05-29-2020 11:08 AM | ||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Why did God create such a subtle serpent? Methinks it was all a setup in the garden. They both failed miserably. We all failed. We all have sinned. Why blame women? How does that help? Why suppress women? Doesn't that create more trouble? |
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| 05-29-2020 11:00 AM | ||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
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| 05-29-2020 09:22 AM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Nell |
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| 05-29-2020 09:12 AM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Quote:
Gen. 3:6 says this: 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Where was Adam? It appears he was standing right there beside her, watching the whole thing. Instead of protecting her, he just stood there watching it happen. He knew what God's command was...it was spoken directly to him...he knew exactly what was happening to her and he let it happen. Then later...like a coward...he blamed her for something that he could have stopped from ever happening. Quote:
Paul says: 1 Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." Quote:
It would be interesting to ask Paul, someday, if he realized that his personal letter to Timothy...his attempt to protect women...would live to be misinterpreted as commands to follow for all time...to denigrate, mistreat, and otherwise stifle the woman in her position in the Body of Christ and in the world as a whole. This seems to be another instance of prescriptive vs. descriptive. Quote:
Genesis 3:3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Nell |
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| 05-29-2020 07:48 AM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
 )And I completely agree that woman was brought to man as a helper, and is so nicely complementary - man & woman are complimentary to each other. These complementary characteristics can work really well in parenting I think. And I so appreciate my wife's insights and strengths on a wide variety of things. But that means there are also things that are not strengths. Equal, but different for a reason. So what did the devil know when he approached Eve with his scheme? Why did he go to her first, and not Adam? (I think he probably knew that going through Eve was a good way to get to Adam and that it would be difficult for him to resist Eve. Therefore he went to Eve first.) |
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| 05-29-2020 06:25 AM | ||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
If women are supposed to learn in silence and at home, why did that not apply to Adam? What examples do we have in scripture of women being properly educated in silence at home by their husbands? How can we fault Eve for listening to a talking serpent? Did other animals talk too? Was she ever warned about the serpent? Where was Adam to protect her from all of the animals which he had previously named in the presence of God? If Eve was deceived, then Adam was doubly deceived. And he disobeyed God, which was his transgression alone. What we are missing here is "context." What was the situation Paul and Timothy were discussing? What had been said that we don't know. |
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| 05-28-2020 10:15 PM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
My take: I think it might be the emotional part that causes issues for men. I wonder if that’s not a characteristic of man that causes him to perhaps equate the emotional part of woman as her being “deceived”. The implication is that men, at times, believe because she is “emotional” she is deceived: “emotion=deceived”. The woman was given to man as a helper. Could it be that the emotions of woman, created by God, are meant to balance perhaps the strong (perhaps stubborn) will of man (also created by God)...to help him...to help each other through situations that call for a balance of “mind, emotion and will”? The man who was not deceived, but willfully sinned, is held accountable for the fall of man. The woman was deceived, admitted it, was likely “emotional”, but was blessed as the vessel to bring forth the Savior. Could we say “women are more easily emotional” while men are more easily stubborn? I'd be interested in getting the take of others on these questions. I hope it's not too harsh. —Nell |
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| 05-28-2020 03:19 PM | ||||||
| Curious |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' I just want to add two things quickly. One, I cringe too, not so much at Paul's instructions being considered here, but at my own origional post. I sound quite angry and combative now I read it again. Not delivered in a gentle spirit, perhaps a bit of 'truth without love'. My apologies for that. Also I know I mention history here and there. That might seem odd or irrelevant. I think of history as 'the threshing floor' of truth. Big patterns that repeat over and over, like elevation of rulers to God-like status, exploiting the people hand over fist as Samuel warned would happen when the Isrealites demanded a King..... I see that history verifies this over and over. Every tyrannical despotic King, Tzar, Emporer, Pharaoh, Ceaser, General Secretary...to the little-known cult that your next-door - neighbor belongs to. Whatever the name, is just a WL on a bigger or lesser scale. A look at history reinforces the truth that authority without accountability is a means to darkness and evil, not light and truth. Same with the woman issue.... I feel what I've said in the post about about how the fallen world has treated and viewed women historically is relevant to the discussion. Even though it might seem a bit left-field. The bigger lessons of history can only verify God as the source of truth. If the fruit of an interpretation of scriptures aligns with what has caused darkness and harm, then that raises at least a caution and rethink about where and how that interpretation really sits. Teaching 'full submission, silence, and that a man can not learn or be taught from a woman, and that she is prone to being deceived, and by implication men are not, definitely lowers her to that vulnerable state of being a lesser being. Its also what the LC basically teaches all it's people to do, replace 'man' and 'woman' with 'leaders of recovery' and 'followers' and you have the same exact deal. |
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| 05-27-2020 11:38 PM | ||||||
| Curious |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' As I’m the source of this thread originally, I feel I have a bit more to add now its been revisited. My opening diatribe was my attempt to compare what the bigger view of the council of scripture would indicate on the idea that women are more easily deceived, rather than take a big lead on this from one statement of Paul, though I don’t pretend to have all the answers. History attests to much mistreatment of women, especially from Homer the Greek philosopher, onwards, in the rise of Western Civilisation. But most parts of the world have exercised misogyny as part of the cultural norm without the help of Homer’s philosophies. In Italy in the middle ages, it is advised to men to treat their wives as they will, with the only caution being not to beat her too harshly while she is heavily pregnant, or a disaster may happen.(!) The implication being that a man can beat his wife to the degree that could cause a miscarriage in a heavily pregnant woman, at any other time, including while in early pregnancy. He also has liberty to use her body in any way that so pleases him in regards to sexual practice, she is as ‘meat’ to be had according to his inclination. This is from literature written during the time. Disturbingly, that sort of attitude is not unusual for most of the world, for most of time. I advise anyone subject to human nature to be cautious about doctrines that elevate men to positions that give free reign in terms of authority without due accountability. The fallen nature of either gender loves this kind of liberty. As women carry babies and are physically weaker and as child rearing necessitates their dependency on men, this puts women in a more vulnerable situation. This is important to keep in mind in my opinion. An alternative possibility I’ve heard regarding Paul’s words is that when he said ‘A woman’ must remain silent, he was referring to one particular woman, but not naming her. He did not mean every woman, just one asking questions and disrupting the flow of the meeting. That could be a possibility. Also, ‘she must ask her husband at home’….women were not educated, only men could read and study the scriptures. This is an undisputed fact from the times. They also had been allotted a separate area in the temple, although this had not been the case originally. So being once again included in the proceedings of the gathering of the faithful, they had lots of questions and learning to catch up on. To ‘ask their husbands’ at home was the revolution in including women, advising husbands to teach them, rather than exclude them as had been the norm. I think we in our times don’t appreciate the dangerous and perilous nature of existence of people, especially women, in the times of the bible (as per Nell’s post). Nor do we appreciate the extent of the ‘oppression’ and exclusion of women from education and higher pursuits. That women are capable of these activities is born out by women who wrote under male pseudonyms and even the odd artist was secretly a woman, in past centuries. Personally, I can’t accept the position that God only equips one half of the human race with talents and abilities only to supply genes to the other half. But that issue is not really at question here, except as an extension to ‘teach (include) your wives at home’. My last bit here is to say: Any human who submits their life to God, is going to develop wisdom, good character, faith, resistance to careless sinning etc, over time. Regardless of their gender. Any person who does not, will be prone to both disobedience, (to any Christian values they don’t subscribe to) and deception, self-deception etc. A wise person teaches others by word, conduct, even just their composure and presence. It is unavoidable that when a person possesses substance, it influences others. It is impossible to avoid learning from a maturing person. If it’s a person’s journey with the Lord that is being testified, how can that be a sin, based on their gender? We all learn from each other all the time. It is intrinsic to relationship that mutual learning happens. To take Paul’s instruction to mean he is forbidding all women to ever teach any man just makes no practical sense to me and is impossible to implement. Men in the church who subscribe to the doctrines that have come from these scriptures of Paul, often seem more worried they might sin by overlooking those scriptures, than they are worried about the danger they might sin by denigrating, misusing and abusing through disempowerment, the helpmeet God gave them. Adding to, if even in a lesser way, the volume of injustice that has and continues to happen against women. That’s my thoughts. |
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| 05-27-2020 03:43 PM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
1 Tim. 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived [when he sinned], but the woman [having] first been thoroughly deceived [became involved] in his transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, [i.e., the bearing of Jesus Christ] if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Adam was older and more mature than Eve. When it's said that Adam was not deceived when he sinned, that means...he sinned willfully. He knew what he was doing. Eve was deceived...that means she didn't have full realization of what she was doing...unlike Adam who willfully sinned. Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me (deceived me), and I did eat. So, Adam blamed God. There is no record that Adam confessed his sin in this passage. Of course, that doesn't mean he didn't repent at some point, but there is no record here, and his behavior doesn't indicate contrition on his part. God said to Eve: What have you done? Eve admitted she was deceived and she admitted to eating what God told them not to eat. She confessed. I don’t know for sure, but if you admit you are deceived, it might be that you are no longer deceived and you understand that what you did was wrong, but that’s my thought. It makes sense to me. Which is worse, being deceived, or willful sin? The woman did confess. She acted on a precursor of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Adam didn't. His behavior was cowardly. I don't know for sure why Paul brought Eve's name into the record here, but in this context, I don't think he was blaming her for being deceived. Rather, he honored her confession. Maybe Paul wanted to underscore his point that the women of the church needed protection rather than pushing them to the front lines with the men to be assaulted by Nero. After the woman confessed, God turned to the serpent and cursed him; he turned to the woman and in effect, blessed her. Then God turned to the man and booted him from the garden. An interesting verse...written by Paul: Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. ...death reigned from Adam (not Adam and Eve, not Eve). ...Adam's transgression...not Eve's. Eve may have sinned first, but Adam was held accountable. So, maybe we should also discuss whether men are more given to willful sin. Whaddyatink? Nell |
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| 05-27-2020 01:34 PM | ||||||
| Trapped |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' What about Paul's reference to Eve being deceived who was not in that time and place and same societal constraints? In other words, what is Paul's point in bringing up Eve? That's the part that makes me cringe. How do we know when to apply "that time/place/society" versus "for all time" to any given portion of scripture? All the epistles were to certain parameters of people and situations, and yet we follow them today. These are head-scratcher questions on my part, not belligerent ones. |
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| 05-27-2020 12:56 PM | ||||||
| aron |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
Paul was saying, "Don't let your freedom in Christ overturn current societal constraints." Whether or not those constraints are equitable, or eternal (immutable and unchanging) are not the issue. Don't distract people from the message of Jesus' resurrection. We got freed from eternal death. Don't grumble over temporal matters. Don't throw off societal yokes because you believe in Jesus Christ. Here's another way to look at it. Look at Jesus with women. He never, that I can see, overturned societal constraints of his time. Yet he was completely transcendent - his interactions with people, including (and especially[!]) women - were transformative. The human person Jesus took the petty, modest and mundane human interactions, even within their outward limitations and humiliations, and grew something so precious there. Whether you're woman or man, slave or free, Greek or Jew or Scythian, is beside the point. You may have to live within the dictates of that "package" but in that "package" you can find something transcendent. There's a person waiting to meet you, there. |
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| 05-27-2020 12:19 PM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
The passage below puts Paul's letter to Timothy (1 Tim. 2) into context. Her book was written in the format of numbered paragraphs. This passage is an edited (by me) version of paragraphs 325 and 326. 325. And, then, there was a peculiar peril to women, of which Paul would know, though Christian women might be ignorant of it. We will describe it in the words of Prof. Ramsay … “The ingenuity of Roman practice had in A.D. 31 perverted a humane scruple . . . into a reason for detestable brutality [criminal outrage] to the young daughter of Sejanus; . . . If such things were done to the innocent daughter of a Roman noble, why not to a Christian criminal?” … We know, then, that the situation which women Christians occupied under Nero was that of extreme peril, not only to life, but, as Church history shows, to virtue also. 326. To be sure, one should not carelessly assume that anything in the Bible is of exceptional and temporary import only. Yet we are now dealing with a personal letter, and advice given to one individual, and given in a time of exceptional peril and these facts ought to count for a great deal…. … We might have suffered a stagger to our faith in Paul’s tenderness and prudence, if not a stagger to our faith in the Bible, if, in a time of such supreme peril to Christian women, Paul could be represented as urging women to the front of the fight, and putting on them equal ecclesiastical responsibilities with men, when he knew that the cost to them would be far heavier than to men. Rather, we find in Paul’s letter to Timothy precisely that sort of natural advice that a tender over-pastor under such conditions would give to one in charge of a church in his jurisdiction: “I should not allow a woman to teach or control a man. They (the Romans...not the women) are attacking our reputation for common decency, and we must meet it by separating the women from the men, and having them keep very quiet.” All history testifies that women did not shirk martyrdom for Christ’s sake, but Paul says: “However willing they may be, I do not permit it. We men must take the lead: … Thus might the Apostle, who, ten years before, wrote to the Corinthians about women “praying and prophesying,” and to the Galatians about the same time, to the effect that there could be no distinctions as regards sex in the Christian body, now consistently write after this manner to Timothy, for he must have regard for the situation under Nero, and the relations of Christian to the social order about them. It seems to us far more sensible, then, to ascribe Paul’s precautionary advice to the then existent perilous times, especially for women, than to go back to Eve, or to creation to find a reason. The context of Paul writing a personal letter of advice to care for the health and safety of women who were in extreme danger and in under Timothy's pastoral care meets the need of the day. It also explains the seeming contradictions in Paul's writings wherein he is supportive of women, yet cares for them in a practical way to keep them from harm. Hence the verses: 1 Tim. 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. I think it's totally believable. Hope this helps... Nell |
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| 05-27-2020 11:43 AM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
On further reading - you are saying they are in a slave class? Now I really need to hide for fear of collateral fallout!  Actually, I think I do get your point . . . more to how things, legally, were viewed in their respective times, right?
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| 05-27-2020 11:23 AM | ||||||
| Nell |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
K. Rahab We proceed to Rahab (v. 5). Rahab was a harlot in Jericho (Josh. 2:1), a place cursed by God for eternity. Although she was a harlot in such a place, she became a grandmother of Christ. How could a harlot become a grandmother of Christ? In order to answer this question, we need to find the principles. The entire population of Jericho was destroyed except Rahab, her family, and her possessions. She was saved because she turned to God and God’s people (Josh. 6:22-23, 25; Heb. 11:31). After she turned to God and His people, she married Salmon, a leader in the army of the leading tribe of Judah and one of the men sent by Joshua to spy out Jericho. At that time, Salmon became acquainted with Rahab and, in a sense, saved her. Eventually, Rahab married him, and they brought forth a godly man named Boaz. Pretty amazing. Nell |
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| 05-27-2020 11:10 AM | ||||||
| aron |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
So what happens? People start to get wild. Women and children start to sass. Slaves say, "Hey, man, I'm free in Jesus Christ. Don't tell me what to do." Paul was saying, Remember the society in which you live and obey its constraints. We are still Greeks and Jews outwardly, still women and men, still slave and free. Don't take your freedom in Christ Jesus as an excuse to disorder. Galatians 5:13 "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love." Cf: 1 Cor 8:9 "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak." And 1 Cor 9:19 "Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible." Similar, Paul's "Women will be saved by child-bearing" doesn't mean that this is their path to salvation, but that the circumstance of being a mother, caring for a drooling and pooping infant will give them the opportunity to unselfishly love others, and not just care for their own things. Similar to being a husband to a wife, or father of children. Or, if you're a slave, to be subject to an earthly master because there is one Master in heaven, and he put you in that spot. So serve Him with fear, as you accept your earthly role. Imagine if your master's a drunken lout, and you're a pious sober Christian. Yet, because of God's sovereign arrangement, you have to be subject to this one. Find God in your circumstances. Back then, women couldn't vote, couldn't drive carriages around etc. They were less than the men, in society. Paul said, Accept that. You are great in the kingdom. If you're nothing on earth, so what. (And they never got this simple point, in the LC. There, it was all about being a respecter of persons. Women were "great" when Nee needed to leverage them. Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Margaret Barber - lionesses of recovery.... then the worm turned, and 1 Tim 2 was invoked. What a ridiculous travesty. In the LC - Witness Lee was truly, transcendently great. Everyone else's greatness, or social position, was referent, or relative, to that singular point. Similarly, if you got into Harvard or Stanford you were on your way to greatness. Etc, etc. It was all about outward position. Either your place near Lee or your place in society.) Paul and Jesus were very much alike in this manner - outward position was nothing. In fact it could be a terrible stumbling if one wasn't very careful. |
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| 05-27-2020 10:54 AM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' I recently heard a brother on the radio speak on this, and he was quite strong on the idea that scripture forbids women to take a leadership role in place of a man. I kept expecting the censors to come on and shut him down at any time! Look, I've been married to a strong woman for 22 years. She bought a franchise over 30 years ago that facilitates leadership develop to organizations. When she was in the corporate world with an international Fortune 500 company, she quickly rose to the VP level. (BTW - she says she wasn't even aware of a "Glass Ceiling" and said so once when interviewed by media - that's not what they were looking for!) She's a very strong goal setter & achiever and very high on the accountability scale (for herself and others). I've learned so, so much from her over the years, in both the business and personal realms (I've been full-time in the family business for some time). However, while we consider ourselves equals, we also know there are key differences & strengths to each. While she usually shows a lot less emotion than many women, there is still a pretty strong emotional side. I think it might be the emotional part that can cause issues for women, and I wonder if that's not a characteristic that lends itself to deception at times. Women and men are certainly complimentary to each other (FYI: I might not show enough emotion at times), and I so very much appreciate this of my wife, and she of me. But we all are coming from a place of being in the post-Christian world, where feminism has gone to an extreme and saturated the culture. So talk like this (e.g., in 1st Timothy) can actually sound alien to many now days. But God sees things clearly, and I've had a glimpse of what His household administration looks like. He has an administrative order (i.e., economy) to things, in order that His household might thrive, and so everyone gets what they need in an atmosphere of love. This household order is the Lord, then the husband/father, then the wife/mother, then the children. Again, this order is set by Him so that everyone in the household gets supplied with what they need, in an administration of love, caring (and yes, accountability). So we can "kick against the goads" of this, but we will likely get hurt in the process! I'd be very interested to get the take of others - AND ESPECIALLY SISTERS! |
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| 05-27-2020 10:15 AM | ||||||
| Trapped |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Great posts, Curious, all of them. I'm not sure whether to bring it up, but it's highly relevant to the thread title. What on earth do we do with these verses in 1 Timothy 2? 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. The reason I say I'm not sure whether to bring it up is because I know there have been many many many papers and articles and commentaries out there written about this verse and the meaning of "assume authority" in the original language, with no consensus, and I'm not sure we'll reach an "aha, this is what Paul meant!" conclusion here either. I personally read the verses and cringe. It makes it sounds like females function on half a brain, and I know enough of them to know they don't. But the verses are there and thus have to be contended with. Any thoughts? |
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| 01-24-2020 01:07 PM | ||||||
| Curious |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Thankyou, guys for your support to my possibly unconventional take on that account. It prompts me to add the following: If we think of Rahab the harlot, as a victim of abuse and exploitation, (which provides context for why she could hate the life she had to the point that she could betray her people and city so completely), then we can see that it can take only one abuse victim, taking action, to bring down a whole evil structure. The whole city was brought to the ground. As well it brought her into a new life where she was married and able to live a dignified life, one deprived of her in jericho. |
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| 01-24-2020 07:15 AM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
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| 01-24-2020 02:42 AM | ||||||
| aron |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Curious, great post. Many were encouraged to see Jo and Greg Casteel stand up. It is not wrong to seek rightness. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His rightousness, and everything else will be added to you." |
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| 01-24-2020 02:18 AM | ||||||
| Curious |
Re:its ok to stand up for yourself I realise that I have more to say…. Now let’s consider the account of Judah and Tamar, his daughter in law. Found in Genesis chapter 38. This is just my take on it. I’m not a biblical expert. Nor a theorist. I’m a real-life-ist perhaps. If there is such a thing. Judah had 3 sons. The eldest married a young lady named Tamar. He did something evil that the bible doesn’t give any detail of. God kills him. As is the custom, to protect the widow, the next son marries her, but also displeases God and God kills him too. Judah then withholds his third son from Tamar, scared that the same fate may befall him too, should he marry Tamar. He handles it by lying to her about it and just fails to honour both the custom and his word to her. Next, having lost 2 of his 3 sons, if that weren’t enough for poor Judah, his wife dies too. That’s a lot for anyone to take. Tamar is left, having done no wrong, in the situation where she will not be able to marry. Stuck at home with her dad, her prospects are grim. Yet she is not one to take injustice lying down. She has a plan. Now, widows and orphans are the poorest people in the bible. Both NT and OT. I want to say this about prostitution. For most of history, and for most of the world, prostitution is another word for poverty. Poverty and desperation. I don’t know if this prospect was one Tamar would have been forced into for her survival, its just an idea of mine. certainly she would have been stigmatised against any other prospect for marriage, and outside of male protection, women’s prospects weren’t good. So, in a very bold and tactical move, she covers her face, dresses in the attire of a prostitute, and makes herself available to Judah. Judah takes the bait pretty eagerly and Tamar becomes pregnant to him. When awareness of her pregnancy is brought to Judah, he is quick to pronounce judgment on her of the harshest kind…to burn her to death! In spite of the fact that it had been overlooked that Judah had failed to provide his third son to her, as he should have. Its only when its proved that he is the cause of her pregnancy that Judah humbles himself and repents unconditionally. When she gives birth there are 2 sons, so the blessing for Judah is he lost two sons, but after repenting, he gains 2 sons in place of the ones he lost. God restored. Like Job, who was blessed with more children after his ordeal. What to make of this story? 1. With God, mercy triumphs over the Law. (the very middle scripture in the whole bible states just that!) Mercy is only available to the humble, humility comes with repentance, which comes with losing faith in ourselves as we see our own sinfulness. Just as David humbled himself before Nathan the prophet when confronted. Like Jacob as he spoke to pharaoh in his old age, acknowledging his failures, (in my opinion). The blessing comes with humility and repentance. Judah was pleasing to God when he repented. 2. God honoured Tamar in her effort to acquire justice in a system that was not gong to provide it to her. I’m sure He could’ve done it in a morally acceptable way if she had sought Him, she was a Canaanite and not familiar with the knowledge of God. Her treatment by her two husbands and father-in-law had possibly not helped her to understand God in a way that would have given her the best impression of the God they served! Tamar's plan was certainly practical and effective!! This story again highlights that God can be validating the cause of the woman in a situation. But my point this time, is that regardless of your gender, when you are mistreated by those in authority, it is ok to stand up for yourself. Tamar did and God brought justice to her, regardless of the way she went about it, even! If she had been passive and helpless, she would have lived with the consequences of injustice against her, and she would have suffered for it. Its also true that Judah benefitted from her assertiveness, and risk taking. He would not otherwise have learnt humility and righteousness either, which God was very pleased with him for. Jesus’ genealogy includes them both. True righteousness comes with that humility. Getting away with wrongdoing harms the offender too, and robs them of the opportunity to be faced with their failure, correct it, and be made right with God and man. If you are scared to stand up for yourself, I hope you can be strengthened by this account. It’s in the word of God, and its for people of all time, where justice is not being offered to those who are unprotected and mistreated. Take courage, take heart. Be bold when required and know that God is a God of justice. Pray lots always so that your heart and spirit are protected, and that you have guidance for the way to resist harm from others. God is not a God of fairness, life is not fair, but justice and fairness are not the same thing. That can be a hard thing to accept. He promises justice to those who seek it from him, even though life has been unfair. that's my little rant for today! |
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| 01-21-2020 06:30 AM | ||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
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| 01-20-2020 07:24 AM | ||||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' It was that woman that You gave me! 
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| 01-20-2020 04:07 AM | ||||||
| aron |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Quote:
(Speaking of which, when Nee & Lee were found plagiarizing they said it was just a cultural misunderstanding, in China when you copy that's showing respect.[But of course there's no fallen human culture in the LC!]) And then Lee also was easily deceived, repeatedly citing Mary McDonough as an authoritative source for his "three parts of man" idea, and selling her book "God's Plan of Redemption" on his LSM website. In LC meetings, the names of these "lionesses of recovery" were intoned in reverence, yet moments later people would be informed that women couldn't handle the spiritual load. Quote:
But if you google "Watchman Nee Elizabeth Fischbacher" or "Witness Lee Ruth Lee Peace Wang" you'll see how instrumental, essential even, they were to the rise of the Little Flock in mainland China. |
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| 01-19-2020 10:15 PM | ||||||
| Curious |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Personally I believe man and woman are equally responsible for the fall. they both transgressed and a battle of the sexes over it is not helpful. They both faced consequences, as they were both guilty. Also, though WL officially stated that women can't interpret the bible and are more easily deceived, yet in the end, though he didn't say it of men, it amounts to the same for either gender. Everyone in the LC relies on the interpreted word, not their own flow, and recites WL's writings in the same way, and its called prophecying. I think a controlling group often targets women more openly as it is easy to do, but in the end the goal is to control all. I spiced up my post here with a bit of sarcasm in parts which somewhat regret. I don't mean to have a go at anyone, except WL's doctrines. He did not make that one up himself though. It, and harsher interpretations of the implications of the fall for women, are found elsewhere in the Christian world. I did think my crazy format to contradict those sexist interpretations to be an effective and unpredictable way to illustrate a point. To make one think! I am a bit outside the box though!! |
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| 01-19-2020 09:28 PM | ||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' There is no record that God told Eve directly about not eating of the tree. She must have heard 2nd hamd from Adam. Perhaps the message was altered. Adam transgressed God's command, but the record did not say that Eve also transgressed. |
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| 01-19-2020 05:48 PM | ||||||
| Curious |
Finding Biblical Context For Women 'Are More Easily Deceived' Considering the teaching of the Lord’s Recovery on women; aka the half of the human race that is easily deceived and lacks discernment. Lets just take a little stroll through the ‘pure word of God’ to confirm this ‘unassailable’ truth. Let’s look at some demonstrations of the lack of discernment and propensity to being deceived in women, and their reliance on men to keep them in line with truth. Let’s start by gong to…The taking down of the city of Jericho. In a city full of people, only one discerned that the Israelites were the people of the one true God, and that God was the God of all humanity, and was a good and loving God. Only one person perceived that there could be a way to be rescued into their numbers by seeking an opportunity to connect with their spies. Of course, it would have to be a man that would be so able to avoid the deception of his own religious system, and to discern a way that God could enable such a connection to happen. Probably a Noah, or Abraham equivalent. A man who had kept himself clean and lived an upstanding and holy life, yes that’s the type of man that could have been an unhappy Canaanite living in a godless city and believing for a better life with the people of God. After all, this person is noble enough to end up in the lineage of Jesus himself! [Check out the account in the book of Joshua, chapters 2 and 6, Matthew 1:5 and James 2:25] Now let’s visit David, surviving in the wilderness, but doing it tough. In desperate need of food and supplies for his men, he approaches a man named Nabal, who wanted to help David, as a discerning male. Yet his wife, Abigail sent insults back to David instead. This nearly caused David to break out in a violent attack on Nabal’s household. Only the wise and discerning Nabal saved the day by negating his foolish and short-sighted Wife’s intentions and bravely approaching the furious David directly with an apology and the provision David had requested. [Check out the story in 1 Samuel chapter 25] Next let’s look at the divine conception. Naturally God spoke to Joseph about this first, as the male and the authority over her. Poor dear Mary would not have been able to discern an angel speaking to her, after all, being an easily deceived woman without discernment. And of course, God can only speak to a woman through her husband, so she had to wait to hear it from him to learn what was happening to her in becoming mysteriously pregnant. That must’ve been a bit tough on her, but what else can God do when all daughters of Eve are thusly unable? [From Luke 1;26-38] Not long before Jesus death, he was sitting in a house of a Simon the leper, in a room with his 12 male disciples. Amongst them, someone got up and preformed the priestly duty of anointing his body for burial. One person in that room felt the leading of the Holy Spirit to do so, no one else had a clue what was going on except Jesus and the person performing the anointing. Naturally, it could only be a man, firstly, to have such a discernment and secondly, only a man could perform the priestly duties. Yes, absolutely had to be a man. [Found in the book of Matthew 26:6-13] Another telling story is that of Pilate and his wife. Pilate felt, from a dream he had the night before, that he should have nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus, yet his wife pressed him to use this as an opportunity to further his career. Poor deceived woman, going for the temporary things and ignorant of the spiritual level of what was taking place. [Matthew 27:19-26, and Luke 23:12] Do these stories back the notion that women cannot discern and are easily deceived? Or is it as often as not that women are the ones WITH the discernment? And wouldn’t these biblical accounts of events unfold differently if WL’s ideas were actually supported by the bible? I have one last and obscure point. MAYBE Eve was more easily deceived than Adam because she was younger than him and had therefore had less time and opportunity to develop her relationship with God directly. If men can also be deceived and women can sin deliberately, then the two propensities exist throughout human nature and are not gender exclusive. Maybe the real lesson is to get to know God and remain close to Him to avoid either mistake of being deceived OR caught up in wilful disobedience? Maybe even Pauls words to women to be ‘silent’ in the church were not God casting a prohibition on all women for all time, as the words ‘listen’ and ‘silence’ in the English language contain the exact same letters as each other, maybe Gods message to us is to ‘listen’ to God to get to know Him and His ways, and that protects us all from being too quick to air our assumptions and be easily deceived! Just a thought. |
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