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| 09-20-2011 08:48 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Official word, not faithful Quote:
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| 09-20-2011 07:35 AM | |||||||||
| Suannehill |
Re: Qualified to discern leprosy Quote:
What was tapped by Aneheim to lead after the plastering was "sad" to say the least. "Getting plastered" takes on a completely new meaning! 
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| 09-19-2011 04:48 PM | |||||||||
| OBW |
Re: Official word, not faithful Quote:
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| 09-19-2011 07:27 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Official word, not faithful Quote:
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| 09-18-2011 06:46 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Official word, not faithful Evil Book 5 Elders’ Training, Book 10 1. WL refers to an illogical and unreasonable rebellion, although it was completely logical and reasonable to stand against sin and an LSM takeover of the churches. A Test to Faithful Ones WITNESS LEE: “The illogical and unreasonable rebellion is a test to the faithful ones. Any saint who knows the New Testament teachings logically and reasonably and who is faithful to the Lord according to his holy and unchanging Word would not care for the unbridled speakings in the present turmoil. So the turmoil is really a test to the faithful ones for their approvedness.” (1 Cor. 11:19) (Elders’ Training Book 10, p. 15) 2. In the following paragraph, WL referred to the “rebellion” as a sifting, or a kind of purifying, to the “faithful ones”, himself included. He claimed to be slandered, defamed and lied about, referring to the actions of former leaders against him. Yet, the facts of unfiltered history show that they spoke the truth. Still, official word has it that ”faithful ones” in the church were purified in the so-called “rebellion”. See www.TwoTurmoils.com/PeopleChange.pdf for a truth-study of the alleged rebellion. Purification to the Recovery WITNESS LEE: “A rebellion always brings about some sifting among God’s people. This sifting can be considered as a kind of purification exercised by the Lord’s sovereignty to purify His collective people. Furthermore, the occurring of a rebellion also renders some purification to the faithful ones in their intention, their motive, their purpose, their aim, and other matters. To some extent I have been purified. During the turmoil, when I heard that people slandered me, and defamed me, as the Lord said in Matt. 5:11, “Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and say every evil thing against you, lying for My sake,” I checked with the Lord to find out if I was wrong. By such checking, I was purified.” (Elders’ Training Book 10, p. 15) See www.TwoTurmoils.com/PeopleChange.pdf for a truth-study of the alleged rebellion. |
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| 09-16-2011 11:39 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Qualified to discern leprosy Quote:
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| 09-16-2011 09:08 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Qualified to discern leprosy By attempting to limit the scope of who is qualified he acted hypocritically and he will be condemned by his own words. |
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| 09-15-2011 07:35 PM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Qualified to discern leprosy Quote:
How dare anyone think it's his co-workers or his son as the office manager who were the leprous ones. |
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| 09-15-2011 03:28 PM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Qualified to discern leprosy Quote:
According to this analogy it was the OT priesthood that was responsible to deal with leprosy. According to Peter, the saints in the NT are "a royal priesthood". So when WL says "we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children" is he referring to the saints in the church? Is he referring to us? Because if he isn't it sounds like he is promoting a clergy laity system which, in my opinion, would be extremely hypocritical for a person that disparaged the clergy laity as much as he did. |
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| 09-15-2011 11:49 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Should lies prevail? Quote:
We know in part what the quote was referring to as what "offended the Body". The 18 points from 8/28/88. Never knew of these point existence until the last 5-10 years. Personally I was helped by these points and was not offended in the least. Talking about ambition. There are different types of ambition. It's one thing for a brother to try to gain a following. Did the quarantined brothers try to do that? No. They gravitated towards saints who would receive them. If they are guilty of any ambition and myself included, it is to be treated with dignity. Who wants to be shunned? Who wants the ability for mutual communication cut off? This is considered a "misunderstanding"? Unless there is communication, there is no way to clear any misunderstandings. |
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| 09-14-2011 08:51 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Should lies prevail? B. Lee reiterates toward the end of the book what he said earlier about respecting the opinion of “the Body”, referring to the Local Churches who quarantined four LC leaders in 1990. from Problems Causing Turmoils – 1993 WITNESS LEE: “Regardless of how much we have received from a certain one in the past, if he does something that offends the Body, we must practice the truth. We must know the Body and trust in the Body. The churches in CA wrote an open letter because they felt burdened and were held responsible to let the churches on this globe know the damage certain ones did in California and the loss which they had suffered. In this open letter they said that they had made the decision to quarantine these ones. Should we listen to the churches or take care of our own personal observation of the situation? If we put the notification of so many churches aside and go to investigate the situation for ourselves, this is an offending to the Body. Do we respect the Body or do we respect ourselves? "It is not a matter of whether someone is right or wrong. He might be right, but still he offended the Body. We need to see the Body. What the Lord wants is the Body….” The Problem of Ambition Those who took the lead in the recent turmoil did not care for the Body. They also misunderstood us. Such misunderstanding comes mostly from ambition. If a person did not have any ambition in a certain matter, he would not have any misunderstanding. If a person desires to gain something for himself and does not get it, he may feel that he has been mistreated. Actually, he was not mistreated by others, but was misled by his own ambition. The problem here is the desire to achieve something for themselves. See www.twoturmoils.com We must speak the truth; we must not let lies prevail; we should not let evil-speaking triumph, “no matter how much we have received from a certain one in the past”. |
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| 09-13-2011 01:54 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Qualified to discern leprosy "Furthermore, we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children." - WL. 1993 Brother Lee felt that he alone could discern leprosy in the Body. The truth is that he could not even discern his own condition and that of his son, Philip, who was fully unqualified to be in and among the saints directing and instructing elders and young people, corrupting them, as well as LSM staff sisters. Excerpts from Problems Causing Turmoil Witness Lee: "When we accept someone at the Lord's table, we have to consider the Body. According to the practice of Rom. 14, we accept all of the Lord's children, but according to Rom. 16:17 we have to mark those who make divisions, and turn away from them. We cannot receive division-makers who have been quarantined by the Body. Furthermore, we have to realize who has the function and qualification as the priest to discern leprosy among the Lord's children. Again, this is a matter of practicing the Body life. If a local church receives someone who has offended the Body to the uttermost, that local church is obviously not going along with and not one with the Body. We have to take care of the Body. ...But receiving a person who has made trouble in the recovery and who is still making trouble involves the Body very much. If we behave ourselves properly, we are okay in the Body. But if we commit something that is condemned by the New Testament, the Body has the right to say something. The Body will check with a local church if there is a division-maker among them whom they have not disciplined. If they do not discipline such a one, they are wrong and offending the Body. To know the Body is the proper recovery of the Lord. If we are for the recovery, we need to realize what the recovery is.The Lord desires to recover the missed Body of Christ and to recover the neglected oneness of the Body of Christ. This is the Lord's recovery." Brother Lee's discernment of leprosy was so far off that he considered John Ingalls such a leper but not his own son. When Philip was finally removed from his position at LSM and excommunicated in the church, WL took him to a Lord's table meeting at another LC, the church in Cypress. Did he respect the feeling of the Body and the churches then? He also had no discernment of the divisive activities of Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, and Andrew Yu, among others. |
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| 09-13-2011 12:04 PM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Book of Evil-Speaking #5 Elders Training Book 10 Quote:
If you embrace the content of these texts, the speaking is innoculating. I however have found the speaking in these books to be cancerous and from the tree of knowledge. |
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| 09-13-2011 11:55 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Seeing the Body Quote:
What would be said of Stephen Kaung or Vern DeFromke? Since they were co-workers with quarantined brothers on a defunct Christian periodical, they were not respecting the feeling of the Body and are thus in rebellion. I am sure 150 years ago John Nelson Darby echoed the same thought towards anyone who did not adhere to his feeling of the Body. I seem to have heard Hudson Taylor received George Mueller. Not respecting feeling of the Body. No, I'm not trying to be negative. Just to point out how little Christ we have when only a select few of members of the Body have the pulse what the feeling of Christ's Body is. Oh by the way, this is yet another trait the Exclusive Brethren share with the local churches. |
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| 09-13-2011 08:43 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Seeing the Body Quote:
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| 09-13-2011 05:44 AM | |||||||||
| awareness |
Re: Seeing the Body Quote:
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| 09-12-2011 08:25 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Seeing the Body http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...rmoilsPost.pdf When leaders and brothers and sisters in the LC recognize the Lord is speaking to them through members of His Body on this forum, they will regard the truth more than their agenda and not disregard the feeling of the Body any longer. |
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| 09-12-2011 12:01 PM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: A Paper in the Wind Quote:
In today's local church culture, when you reference Jude 1:3 (contend for the faith); what is the faith to contend? Clearly it's the ministry. This becomes the mode for whom is rejected, whom is worthy of labor to go after, and to whom there is indifference. I will say the local churches do recieve, but much in the same mode you'll encounter with any denominational or non-denominational church; come and you'll be received. |
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| 09-11-2011 03:52 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Book of Evil-Speaking #5 Elders Training Book 10 Book of Evil-Speaking #5 Elders Training Book 10 To assert that this is now the fifth book of evil-speaking from the press at LSM is not an exaggeration. They produce the books; I report them. Young people especially need to learn how not to speak; and thus stay away from lies and mere party-line agenda in the Local Churches. The content of Elders’ Training, Book 10, like the four books of evil-speaking before it, deals falsely with the late 80s turmoil in messages given in 1989-1991. It joins the first four books of fiction and evil-speaking - A Response to Recent Accusations, RK The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, WL An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ AY The Problems Causing Turmoil WL http://www.UnfaithfulWitness.org/Ano...lSpeaking5.pdf |
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| 09-06-2011 09:16 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-05-2011 05:19 PM | |||||||||
| rayliotta |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-05-2011 04:15 PM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-04-2011 02:08 AM | |||||||||
| rayliotta |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-03-2011 03:14 PM | |||||||||
| rayliotta |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
Wouldn't you rather have Robert Duvall's poker face representing you? Rather than some follower who's too loyal to see what he's in the middle of, and you just have to pray he stays that way? |
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| 09-03-2011 02:44 PM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-03-2011 02:21 PM | |||||||||
| rayliotta |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-03-2011 09:05 AM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
A talented, experienced, loyal follower who lived a thousand miles away during the blackest time of your history, and who digested edited and sanitized messages all his life, and then is brought on board to do interviews with outsiders? |
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| 09-03-2011 01:34 AM | |||||||||
| rayliotta |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
Loyal follower with blinders on (oh, he's harmless, he doesn't see anything) -- OR Loyal follower, free of blinders, looks at everything there is to know, then turns, looks at you, smiles, and says, Very good, when do we start? 
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| 09-03-2011 01:26 AM | |||||||||
| rayliotta |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
I just don't see Chris Wilde filling that role. He's been too trusted for too long. As they say, good lawyers don't ask questions unless they already know the answer. P.S. I'm glad you brought up the example of the White House press secretary, is this kind of like when Sandy Berger came out of that room, with those pieces of paper falling out of his pockets? He didn't know what he was looking for, did he... |
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| 09-02-2011 07:21 PM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
Quote:
I said that "All of the top-level Blendeds are complicit in the coverups." You said, "I wouldn't use such a blanket statement. If you consider Chris Wilde a top-level blended, he was far removed from the events." That's why I said that, "Chris Wilde is not a top-level blended." Now you say, "Before becoming the PR guy, Chris was a local elder. So like all other local elders, he's one who could and would believe whatever the official word was." My point from the beginning was that "top level blendeds" are "in the know." They are not just those who were spoon fed the official LSM line. "Top level blendeds" know better. "Top level blendeds" witnessed unrighteousnesses, and "top level blendeds" committed unrighteousnesses on behalf of WL and LSM. What makes "top level blendeds" part of the "inner blended sanctum" is that they are also guilty of the same unrighteousnesses. The ones in the "inner blended sanctum" are part of the "inner blended sanctum" because they have both witnessed unrighteousness and also committed unrighteousness themselves. I hope this is completely clear.  |
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| 09-02-2011 07:08 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: A Paper in the Wind Paper in the Wind - 1988 1. I once asked a brother about a former member named Alex and suggested we contact him. His sincere reply was that he didn’t think Alex was for the ministry. Therefore, the brother wasn’t inclined to want to visit him. This was in 1994. I ran into Alex four years ago and found out what Alex is FOR. He is FOR the Lord, just as he was formerly. He spoke very fondly of all the saints and of the elders and of brother Lee and his ministry. He had been asked or advised to leave by two elders, as a 23 year-old with questions about the new way. 2. A current elder in Redding, CA, (last I heard), formerly an elder in Tempe, told me by phone in 1999 that once he was helping a 24-year old brother in Tempe who was troubled by matters in the late eighties turmoil and that he, the elder, was doing everything he could to help this young brother, even to the extent that the elder called Brother Lee for fellowship. Brother Lee felt to suggest to him to let this troubled one go and become as “a paper in the wind” and to “let the wind take care of him”. I asked the elder if that sounded like Christ to him. He paused at this legitimate question as if he knew the obvious answer; but he did not answer the question. He changed the subject instead to John Ingalls and made negative remarks about him. I was shocked at the indignant and defensive posture he suddenly took. Brother Lee’s main concern and encouragement was for the elder to spend his time caring for the positive ones and new ones who were not contaminated or dissenting. Therefore, taking the advice of Brother Lee, the elder let the young person go. He had changed his stance from caring for a young brother who had been stumbled, to lining up with the proper mentality of a soldier in the army for “the Lord’s new move”. 3. WITNESS LEE’s word toward the end of the turmoil: "To avoid further damage by the present turmoil, we need to practice a strict quarantine over this contagious disease. Whenever any of the dissenting ones attempts to contact you, no matter in what way and in what polite or "spiritual "manner", you should keep the apostles' teaching in Romans 16:17 and Titus 3:10 to turn away from him and reject him. Do not try to exhort or argue with such people or to find out what and how they really are. If you say anything to them, you will "swallow their bait" and they will "hook" you. You are a gentleman, a sincere, honest Christian, and a humble follower of the Lord, but they are under the deceiving of the devil and unavoidably bear some of his poison. It is impossible to talk or argue with them without being contaminated by their poison. Instead of spending the time to meet with this kind of dissenting ones, we had better save our time to pray and get into the Word so that we may have some riches of Christ to minister to the saints.” (The Ministry of the New Testament and the Teaching and Fellowship of the Apostle, pp 32-33) Br. Lee's word on The Proper Receiving of the Saints 1968 “It is only by being so liberal and general that we can receive all the saints in a proper way. If we are otherwise, we cannot avoid being sectarian in the matter of receiving. If we are special in anything and insist upon that, we will probably not receive those who differ from us in certain matters. But the Apostle said, “”Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.” What he meant when he referred to “him that is weak in the faith” is illustrated in the following verses: i. e., the matter of eating and keeping of days. By this we are affirmatively told that we must receive the saints who differ from us in these things. Any saint who holds a different opinion or concept regarding the things we are in favor, we must receive, “for God hath received him.” As long as he is a saint, as long as He has received him, we have no right to reject him. Our receiving must be the same as God’s receiving, no less and no more. God’s receiving is the basis of our receiving. Our receiving must not be according to our taste, our opinion, or our assertion. It must be in accordance with God’s receiving. It must be based upon God’s receiving – nothing else. God receives people according to His Son. As long as a person receives His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, as His personal Savior, regardless of the concepts he holds regarding all other things, God receives him immediately. Since God receives people in this way, we too must receive people in the same way. Our receiving must be in accordance with God’s receiving. If our receiving differs from His, it means that we are wrong: either we are more narrow or more broad than God. This will cause much trouble and damage to the church life. God’s receiving is based upon Christ’s receiving, and Christ’s receiving is in accordance with our faith in Him. Whoever believes in Him, He will receive. Whoever receives Him, He will never reject. He said, “Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). Since coming to Him, believing in Him, receiving Him, is the only condition for Christ’s receiving, so we must receive people upon the same basis with nothing added. As long as anyone believes in Christ our Lord, as long as he receives Him as his personal Savior, we must receive Him with nothing else required. Regardless of how he may dissent in so many other things, as long as he is a real believer in the Lord, we have no choice but to receive him, for the Lord has received him. This is why the Apostle said, ‘Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.’ We must receive whoever Christ has received. We must have such a proper receiving of all the saints that we may keep the proper unity; otherwise, we can never keep ourselves from being sectarian and causing much confusion and damage to the church life. To practice the church life by keeping the proper unity, such a general receiving is necessary. May the Lord have mercy upon us!” (W. Lee, Practical Expression of the Church, pp 66-77, 1968) Thirty years later Witness Lee: This is a lesson for us all. The co-workers in different places need to learn; all responsible brothers in all localities need to learn. The eyes of the brothers and sisters all need to be opened. Too many things we need to learn. We have acted wrongly in the past, including me, I have to admit. I have had very painful repentance before the Lord. I am very sorry! I am sorry for the Body of Christ - not only for the brothers and sisters among us, but also for the ones in the denominations. You have to bring this message back and read it over and over again in mutual fellowship. Then you will see we were wrong before… To understand and analyze this needs a fair bit of effort. Again I say, a few of you must come together through pray-reading, studying, reciting, and prophesying. We must learn from our past mistakes to receive people according to God's Son...undeviating… not deviating a bit from the path…” (Chinese New Year Conference, Anaheim, Feb 1997, WL’s final message) |
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| 09-02-2011 06:51 PM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 03:52 PM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 03:41 PM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
It is better to have a spokesman who does not know the "whole truth," kind of like the White House uses their press secretary -- if he knows too much, he cannot lie with a clear conscience. |
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| 09-02-2011 03:37 PM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 03:35 PM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 01:52 PM | |||||||||
| rayliotta |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 01:31 PM | |||||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: Evil Book #4 Yeah I think you got that right Terry!
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| 09-02-2011 01:26 PM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 12:11 PM | |||||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: Evil Book #4 So there are "levels" of blendeds? Is it like those fancy deserts served in a tall skinny glass where there are different levels of stuff... chocolate on one level, vanilla on another and strawberry on another? That's not very "blended". What up with that? |
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| 09-02-2011 11:43 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
Since 1997, the blendeds who took party have had ample opportunity to repent and make a turn and have not. "They should have some response" , but have yet to respond. |
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| 09-02-2011 11:33 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 09:31 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 09:28 AM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-02-2011 09:23 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
As for BP and RG, I do not know what to say. To make members of the Body expendable at the expense of a man's ministry is unfathomable. |
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| 09-01-2011 12:06 PM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
His treatment in this case violated the word of God, He did not display a care for the sheep, and He did display a oneness with the wolves. But I believe this event is also a window into the souls of others who were involved: JI is one, RG and BP and KR are others. The idea that KR would knowingly lie in order to do the whitewash makes him one with WL in this crime. Clearly his care and concern was not with the sheep. Likewise I find it very egregious that RG and BP could close their eyes and ears to this. |
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| 09-01-2011 11:55 AM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-01-2011 11:53 AM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
I would think that it is far more difficult for the victim to keep silent, knowing the perpetrator gets off scot-free, and worrying who his next victim will be. This is why Paul's words are so wise and instructive concerning leaders, "those that sin rebuke before all that the rest may be warned." All are warned about sin, and all are warned about PL. Those who know the victim are now free to comfort and encourage her without shame, and those who do not know the victim's identity, still can be warned. This makes the LC constructs of "The Work" and the "Local Ground" all the more error prone. WL and company used both paradigms to protect his darling boys. Since WL headed up "The Work," he silenced all the brothers by saying he would "take care of it." Who would dare question WL? Since discipline was supposedly governed by the matter of the "Local Ground," only Anaheim could address the problem of WL, and who was the lead elder in Anaheim, but WL. It was widely said that Anaheim was "WL's baby, since he raised her up." |
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| 09-01-2011 11:31 AM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
Brothers had wanted PL sent away to Taiwan, but WL wouldn't have it. |
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| 09-01-2011 10:48 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
There is a higher standard for an elder than for others, and I think it includes being reprimanded before all when they sin. I see it along the lines of Samson, that reprimand may do more good for the Body of Christ than all of their previous labor combined. It is about going through the experience of the cross and despising the shame. The real confusion occurs when more than one person are involved in a sin. For example, if you want to publicize PL molesting a sister, will the sister also be shamed and how do you feel about that. So it is possible for a victim to be victimized twice. If you try to cover that part up and hide her identity it will be almost impossible to do without lying and being involved in a cover up. These are tough calls. Also, leaders of the LRC are not omnipotent, they may want things to work out a certain way, but what are you going to do. You can't control what BM and others do and say. The point is it is very difficult to deal with sin in a "clean" way that doesn't involve further problems. |
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| 09-01-2011 09:22 AM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
In another post, Hope was in a meeting with several TX leaders when the news was discovered. The brothers were outraged. BP then decided to call WL. It was WL who suggested their course of action -- relocate and coverup and silence the concerned. WL did the exact same things when junior got caught, so he was good at it by then. |
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| 09-01-2011 08:25 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 09-01-2011 07:48 AM | |||||||||
| OBW |
Re: Evil Book #4 I'm with you on most of this. But there is an exception to the "cover the sin" idea. I'm not looking at it now, but I believe that Paul said that we should be open about the sins of an elder. "Make and example" were effectively the words. I'm sure that this is not meant to say "broadcast it on the mountain top," but I'm also pretty sure that sweeping it under the rug was not intended. |
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| 09-01-2011 06:36 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 Are you talking about BM? I also was bothered that he left and no one said why or gave you any details. I understand you want to cover sin, but you can still give a more adequate explanation. Paul said "those that sin rebuke before all that the rest may be warned". I think something to the effect "he is dealing with sin in his life" could have served both purposes, you know why he left, you don't need to ask anymore questions, but the details are still covered. Also, the matter of those "serving" in the LSM downstairs. Think about it, virtually any other ministry would pay people for that "service" and therefore they wouldn't need to work a second job during the day. What the LRC calls service is really just the LSM robbing the church of key members. Sometimes we think that the LSM was just a small little ministry, but since everyone had to buy books and since the LSM paid very few salaries, and since they didn't have an advertising budget, they must have had a very high profit margin. And profit is what the owners, WL and PL get. |
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| 09-01-2011 06:07 AM | |||||||||
| OBW |
Re: Evil Book #4 Yeah. In the early days, they met in one of the downstairs rooms. But I don't think any of those will fit 140. But I really don't care about the perceptions of the space unless it is discouraging the people and they just won't come because they feel so inadequate. Of course, that presumes that we should ever feel "adequate." What I remember most about Irving was the number of people that you never saw in meetings because they were "serving" downstairs in the LSM. And I was bothered early-on how an elder in Irving — and one of the leads in the printing — could simply leave one day and we not even know it for some time. That really shows the disconnectedness of the whole thing. |
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| 09-01-2011 05:24 AM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 Talk about implosion. I visited Irving in the 90s and was shocked by how few people were in the meeting. Their number was similar to what Odessa had been like when I left Odessa. The only difference is, if you have 140 people in a meeting hall designed to hold 2000 it really emphasizes how small it is. (If I recall correctly the meeting I was in had less than 140). NYC did something right with their meeting hall. They have these partitions that divide the hall into 4 rooms. The biggest of these four is used for the Lord's day meeting and looks full. But during a conference they can easily double or even triple the size of the meeting hall. |
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| 09-01-2011 05:15 AM | |||||||||
| OBW |
Re: Evil Book #4 While I never actually read the book The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life I do recall a series of messages given in Irving, I think at least in part by Benson. This was within a year or so of our leaving. At the time I was struck by the fact that the words said there were citizens and soldiers, but outside of those messages, only the soldiers were truly acknowledged as existing. Every other message somehow made it all about being a soldier or being deficient. And the atmosphere was that if you were not a soldier you weren't just a citizen, you were a second-class citizen. Of course the "soldiering" in Irving was mostly involvement in the message preparation and printing. Not entirely like Anaheim. But I could attest that there was a marked separation of people between LSM volunteers and others just like the difference between those regularly engaged in the New Way and those not so engaged in Anaheim. I have to assume that the only thing that caused Anaheim to blow up the way it did was the added problems of a similar usurping of people for the LSM (like in Irving) and the problems with Phillip Lee that were becoming somewhat openly known there. It's a wonder that more churches did not implode in the manner that Anaheim did. |
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| 08-31-2011 07:00 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Evil Book #4 WITNESS LEE: "I said that being in the army is different from being a citizen. Not everyone in a country is in the army. Gideon eventually only had 300 who became his army (Judg. 7:7). I went to Taipei in 1984 because I was burdened for an army to be raised up who would practice the God-ordained way, but I did not have the intention or the expectation for all the saints in the recovery to be the same". (p. 11, The Problems Causing the Turmoils) Ironically, WL's book called The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life did not talk about the real problems causing turmoil, and thus missed the mark. The problems causing the turmoils essentially came from the plan and the execution to make all the churches and the saints the same. In the Wake of the New Way excerpt (2000, written 11 years ago) Genuine Oneness Not Pursued "Although brother Lee called for the respect to be given those saints or churches not taking the new way, I do not know where that was done, how that was done, or if it was done. The atmosphere that was created was not conducive for a genuine acceptance of non-cooperating churches and members and I don't know how such acceptance could have been possible. For instance, in a meeting in Taipei I attended in October 1987, brother Lee ended his message abruptly, pounding his fist on the table once, and pronouncing emphatically that anyone who didn’t take the new way was foolish, and then he sat down. This was not a demonstration of acceptance. "Another word he gave was to the elders: 'Now you know where I am and where you should be. Also, you know what all of us should do -- go to fight as an army and in the army. Who are the us? Those that are in the army fighting for this ministry.' (Eldrs Trng, Book 7, One Accord for the Lord's New Move) "This wasn’t a word of comfort or peace to those brothers or churches not in the army. Brother Lee had a vision and he had a goal, and the atmosphere in the recovery did not allow for a comfortable divergence from his objectives. "This was the spirit of the new way, a spirit very much of power, but not love. It was obtrusive in its pursuit for the one accord, while failing to consider, care for, or accommodate those strewn in its wake. The modus operandi of the new way violated the genuine oneness of the Body with all its precious members". Link to In the Wake of the New Way http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...ftheNewWay.pdf |
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| 08-31-2011 12:02 PM | |||||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
"What shall we do know?" Difficult question. I wanted to be one with all Christian in my city..including those who meet with the local churches. Nearly my entire existence as a Christian and as human being was through the local church movement. The next question was where do I go? There's no right answer to be given. It is between God and yourself. Just as the brother had stated, "I knew I had to be true to my conscience and the truth I had seen." |
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| 08-30-2011 08:04 PM | |||||||||
| awareness |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
More proof that Witness Lee's movement was/is a franchise corporation ... Headquarters located at : Living Stream Ministry. |
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| 08-30-2011 07:31 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
WL claims he had no intention or expectancy that all the saints be the same. He also claims that what he meant by one accord was misunderstood by some (p. 4, The Problems Causing Turmoil 1993). Actually, the steps he took and the impression he gave in his speaking early on in the new way gave every indication that he wanted the churches and saints to be the same. And, they could begin by getting rid of the one-man speaking concept in all the localities and come under his universal leadership and blue print he set forth for the churches to follow. One of many examples to give about his pursuit to produce cookie-cutter churches and saints was shown in Elders’ Training Book 7. It is not that people misunderstood what he said about the one accord and being the same, it is in print. "If you expect to have one accord in any kind of society, group, or movement, you need the same kind of thinking that comes out of the same kind of knowledge. The Soc***ist party stresses soc***ism. Any political party has its own “ism”. They stress their “ism” in order to have a party, to have what we call the one accord. Without the one accord, no party could accomplish anything. Any society, group, or movement needs this one accord that comes out of the same kind of thought, the same kind of knowledge” (One Accord For The Lord’s Move, W. L., pp. 97, 99-100). And, at an important juncture his intention and expectation was reflected in a letter of agreement drawn up by two close listeners to the heart of brother Lee during intense elders’ training meetings held in Feb 1986. Dear Brother Lee: After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord's recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God's New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord's ministry and the one wise master builder among us…." - (1986 letter of agreement by 400+ brothers) One accord, as in a political movement, was encouraged as was the elders’ handing the reins of leadership over to a universal leader for his planned and orchestrated movement. He would lead the churches and do so by his ministry, that is, “by the apostles’ teaching”, as he put it. Here is a paradox: Oneness with the ministry was gained at the price of division in the church. For some to “sail on” in one accord was to provide the fertile bed of discord among the rest -- the believers, the members of the Body of Christ meeting as the church in their locality”. The work and the church were being mixed during the late eighties turmoil, and much damage occurred in the recovery. It was not until this point that brother Lee was prompted to give the following word of generality to all the elders and co-workers. This was a pivotal time in local church history. Although his words had changed, the tone and direction of the churches had been set and the minds had galvanized among leaders according to their new way training under Witness Lee. He shared, "As long as you do not do anything against our New Testament constitution, no one will bother you. Among us in the Lord’s recovery, there is nothing worth worrying about because basically we do not have any heresy or any kind of organizational control. Everyone in every church has the full freedom to go on. I hope that we would be so faithful and loyal to the Lord’s recovery. We should mean business with the Lord that the Lord’s recovery will be prevailing and even flourishing on this earth for the Lord’s purpose. Concerning practices among us, such as head covering, baptism, or preaching the gospel, we should let these things be as they are among the saints. If some of the sisters want to wear a head covering, let them do it. If others do not, give them the liberty. We should have this attitude with all the practices in the church life that are outside our common faith. If some feel that they are burdened to visit people for the gospel, let them do it. Those saints who are burdened to visit people for the gospel should not insist on this practice. We should try to avoid different kinds of terms, slogans, and sayings, and try to do our best to keep the oneness in the Lord’s recovery. We must avoid anything that damages the freedom of the saints or the oneness of the Body of Christ. It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same. This is impossible. Even twelve brothers within a local church cannot be the same in everything…." John Ingalls on Pivotal Elders’ Training Fellowship During the Summer Training in Anaheim in July 1988 "In his second message of the elders’ meetings, Brother Lee spoke concerning our going on. After all our sessions and hours of fellowship with Brother Lee, we had hoped that he would take steps to clear up a number of things publicly. This was surely an excellent opportunity, a perfect forum, and an appropriate time. He did give a few principles for our going on which would be helpful if practiced. He did say, "It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same," and, "Do not talk about who is for this or who is for that…We should not label ourselves or label others." We were thankful to hear these comments and urgings. But we were deeply disappointed that he did not go much further. What he should have cleared up he covered up, e.g., problems regarding the LSM office and the FTTT training in Taipei. We hoped he would have repented for some things that had caused many problems, not just for allowing saints from the U.S. to attend the training in Taiwan. We surely would have respected him had he done this, and the situation could have been altogether different than it turned out. "the close of Brother Lee’s second message, Dick Taylor (of Long Beach) and Frank Scavo (of Irvine) asked questions which Brother Lee attempted to answer. Dick’s question was quite appropriate and fit our situation. It was as follows: 'Many times you reach a point in your experience where you have genuine concerns. How can you fellowship about these concerns without being considered as negative and thereby causing another problem? This is a concern to me and this is related to the freedom of seeking the Lord and the truth.' In Brother Lee’s response he said that if you have a genuine concern for anyone in regard to the Lord’s recovery you should go to him alone without talking to anyone else. Any "pre-talk", he said, opens the door for the devil to come in. Now this may be true in many cases, but in our history of contacting Brother Lee over our concerns we felt we could not and should not do that. Since the issues were so momentous we needed fellowship for a clearer understanding and preparation for visiting him. In fact, Brother Lee and brothers around him have also had a lot of consultation among themselves regarding concerns for other brothers before going to them. I know because I myself participated in such discussions. "Brother Lee’s attitude while speaking was gentle and persuasive; he was seeking in this way to reconcile all the brothers and to set a course that would calm any fears or anxieties and eliminate any problems. Many were very happy with his fellowship; I was not at all happy or at peace. "During these elders’ meetings I sat next to an elder who had spoken with me a few times previously and was very sympathetic with our concerns, having much the same concerns himself. We agreed to meet together for some fellowship that evening over dinner. This we did, and as we ate we conversed about Brother Lee’s messages that day and their impact on the situation in general. The brother felt happy and said to me, "John, I think this is the best we can expect from Brother Lee. Be thankful." I tried to be; I tried to take his view. But in the depths of my being there was a nagging disappointment. Nothing had been dealt with. No wrongs had been righted. The root was not touched. The question loomed before us, What shall we do now? I knew I had to be true to my conscience and the truth I had seen." |
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| 08-30-2011 04:19 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Evil Book #4 WITNESS LEE: In Feb 1986 I called an urgent elders’ training in which I stressed the one accord, and I made my teaching very clear. I said that being in the army is different from being a citizen. Not everyone in a country is in the army. Gideon eventually only had 300 who became his army (Judg. 7:7). I went to Taipei in 1984 because I was burdened for an army to be raised up who would practice the God-ordained way, but I did not have the intention or the expectation for all the saints in the recovery to be the same. Really? Again, not telling the whole story. |
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| 08-30-2011 11:44 AM | |||||||||
| zeek |
Re: Evil Book #4 My answers to Mr. Lee Quote:
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| 08-30-2011 05:47 AM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
There is no way that the facts of history allow us to believe that WL was somehow fooled by ambitious, power-grabbing "Blendeds" into believing twisted distortions about John Ingalls and others. This is the line of reasoning by many GLA brothers who just cannot accept (or care to know) the facts. They know John Ingalls and others could never have done what they were accused of, and yet they also have to relieve WL of all culpability, based on their illusions of him as an Apostle and MOTA. |
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| 08-29-2011 09:08 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Evil Book #4 Witness Lee said that he, "was forced to publish The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, and the elders in the Californian churches were also forced to tell the churches on this globe what these people did." p. 11, The Problems Causing the Turmoil And that "It was not an easy thing for me to publish the book entitled The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. I considered very much before the Lord whether or not I should release the facts of the rebellious turmoil stirred up by certain ones. Many of the things that were a mystery to the saints. According to my discernment in the Lord, I eventually felt burdened to let the saints know. I documented every point in that book by writings and by verbal testimonies." p. 10 And, I also was forced to release the facts and "document every point by writings and verbal testimony", which counter the fictitious" and disingenuous reporting done in "official" accounts. |
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| 08-29-2011 02:17 PM | |||||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Evil Book #4 - The Need to Mention Names Quote:
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| 08-29-2011 02:15 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Re: Evil Book #4 - The Need to Mention Names Excerpt from The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life. Witness Lee: "I put out that book concerning the present rebellion based upon Paul's principle in 2 Tim, where he mentioned the names of those who damaged the churches and the ministry. He mentioned Hymenaeus and Phyletus as ones who overthrew the faith of some (2:17-18), and he mentioned Alexander the coppersmith as one who did many evil things to him and greatly opposed him (4:14-15. What is happening to me is a repetition of what is happened to Brother Nee. The only difference was that Brother Nee was the "umbrella" at that time, so the covering umbrella eventually became the target. Now that the recovery has come abroad to the Western world, I have become the target. One of the rebellious ones said that the real problem among us was "the philosophy of a king". This shows that I have become the target of their opposition. They are still trying their best to accomplish their goal." P. 10-11. Witness Lee said that in Timothy names were mentioned. At the Titus Chu Roast in Whistler, Andrew Yu said we are going to mention names. Names are mentioned of those who damage the churches and the ministry or who greatly oppose, do many evil things, and overthrow the ministry. On the forum, I , and others, mention names also under the prevailing light we have to do so. |
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| 08-28-2011 03:56 PM | |||||||||
| manna-man |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
"Control" by mis-information. 
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| 08-28-2011 03:26 PM | |||||||||
| awareness |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
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| 08-28-2011 02:55 PM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
How can it be downloaded, besides cut and paste? |
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| 08-28-2011 02:51 PM | |||||||||
| awareness |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
"Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited. Your IP address is 173.30.59.107 [14:44:47 (GMT -08:00), August 28, 2011]." Quote:
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| 08-28-2011 02:32 PM | |||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=B98JTGDRV5BJS Quote:
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| 08-28-2011 02:19 PM | |||||||||
| awareness |
Re: Evil Book #4 Quote:
How nifty that Lee can cause turmoil and then shift the blame to others by accusing them of following the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That way Lee is not held accountable for what he causes. |
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| 08-28-2011 01:03 PM | |||||||||
| Indiana |
Evil Books The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life This book, The Problems Causing the Turmoils in the Church Life, is composed of personal fellowship given by Brother Witness Lee to the elders in Canada on August 13-15, 1993 in Anaheim, California. - Preface It joins the first three books of fiction and evil-speaking, A Response to Recent Accusations, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, and An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ, by RK, WL, and AY, respectively. This publication occurred three years after WL's messages that comprise the The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. Elders who listened to this continued, and intensified, rhetoric on rebellion and conspiracy became increasingly entrenched in the lies which are disseminated in their LSM-churches today. Excerpts Whenever there has been a turmoil, we have learned to be simple by staying with the tree of life and staying away from anything related to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. p. 8 The recent turmoil rose up mainly to put me down. Certain ones decided not only to put me down but also to put me out. Now they are endeavoring to preach their kind of doctrine to accomplish this. They did much in this turmoil, but I did not do anything. From the beginning Brother Nee and I have learned the lesson not to take care of these negative things. p. 8 This shows that our suffering is no different than what the Lord Jesus suffered and what the apostles suffered, especially Paul. p. 9 We need to realize that through all of the degradation and chaotic situations, the church is benefited. p. 9 The situation with Judas was under God’s sovereignty to help Him accomplish His economy. In the same way, through the recent turmoil we have been disciplined, educated, and corrected, and many have been tested, stabilized, and established for the furtherance of God’s move in His economy. p. 10 I have been speaking for over half a century, and I have passed through many troubles, but I have never changed my vision. Certain ones spread a lie that Witness Lee was all right up to 1984, but from that time Witness Lee changed and his change affected the nature of the recovery. So these ones desired to be the “heroes” to rescue the recovery out of Witness Lee’s change. p. 10 In these days we have to be for the Lord’s interest by taking care of the Lord and taking care of His Body to discern the real situation. It was not an easy thing for me to publish the book entitled The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. I considered very much before the Lord whether or not I should release the facts of the rebellious turmoil stirred up by certain ones. Many of the things that were a mystery to the saints. According to my discernment in the Lord, I eventually felt burdened to let the saints know. I documented every point in that book by writings and by verbal testimonies. |
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