YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

wow, I can relate almost everything on this! How can you know so much like the marriage issue since you left at age of 23?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

A new video posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfOv9-6yE-U

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks. I've subscribed to your channel.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #3 on Abuse of Authority has been posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9scXlTXlOI&t=20s

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #4 on the Fallacy of the Local Ground has been posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Oe6ILfi44

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Video #5 up. More opinions on the local ground. Thanks for listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xb-EZ0aRJU

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #6 on the Fallacy of the Minister of the Age now posted.
I wanted to get these foundational videos up quickly. Now I'll take a break for a while. Thanks for listening!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFwdYsxg4pY

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks for making those videos, keep them coming.....

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

That's funny, because my voice is slightly altered on the audios. :lol:

No, I'm not him. I got the idea for starting my channel from seeing him, but I do things in a very different style.

The ones I put out form the basis of my argument about the group. I am praying about how to go forward. Thanks for your support!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #7 up, which examines the question of whether the "the Lord's Recovery" is a cult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX-3_llIG6o

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #8 is up, examining the Christian Research Institute's (CRI) flawed defense of the "The Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2l4B1-NnK4

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #9 up. Message to the Lord's Recovery - Time to Grow Up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLNHLttR8E

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #10 posted. Subject - Exposing the Siege Mentality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzhvIizk0Sg

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I loved the newest installment, Cal. Everything I saw is getting named. Siege Mentality indeed.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thank you, byHismercy! :)

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #11 posted. "Is That Really How God Does Things?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAoFgzxXZTY

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #12 posted. On Going on Post-Lord's Recovery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAmSs1dGfMA

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #13 posted. A Simple Way to Go On Post-Lord's Recovery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R16pRi0-aOQ

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #14 posted. Not So Unique After All.

Turns out the "Lord's Recovery" is not as unique as it claimed. It is actually a very typical controlling, abusive group, manifesting all ten characteristics of a "cult" as specified by the Cult Education Institute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zmqxabNTNM

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #15 posted. God Gives Us All Things to Enjoy.

Exposing the extreme and imbalanced austerity of human behavior in "the Lord's Recovery" movement and recommending a healthier approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rkggy7WeAE

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #16 posted. The Sanctity of Autonomy

No person, group, church or ministry has the right to give you orders. Your spiritual decisions are strictly between you and God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzCL29Ji5-c

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #17 posted. The Hypocrisy of "the Recovery"

Belief in the principle of recovery should compel "the Lord's Recovery" to understand that people might have to leave the movement for recovery to occur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEp1QIERgeM

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Is that your voice on the vid.?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

No, that's Ohio. ;)

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Is that your voice on the vid.? -Awareness
Voice masked (altered electronically).

Well, they know now exactly who you are. They, LSM DCP body.
They will get you.

Let your voice be heard!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Cal vs. Ohio.

The conflict never ends. Who will get quarantined this time? Stay tuned.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Now, now, ya can't fool me. I know Ohio's voice. Maybe it's a voice crying out in the wilderness.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Ohio is the brains, I just supply the voice.

Or is it the other way around? :confused5:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I agree Ohio could be the brains. He's a sharp cookie. He'd add much to your youTube channel.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

That's an awesome idea! Cal, how about interviews for the channel with ex LCers......current even, and such?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #18 posted. The LR De-personalizes God and Relationships

Examining how "the Lord's Recovery" de-personalizes God and relationships to make members emotionally dependent upon Witness Lee's ministry and the group's identity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9fMskhvMUM

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #19 posted. Making a Mockery of Servant Leadership

Servant leadership is how God protects his people from overbearing leaders. "The Lord's Recovery" leaders run roughshod over and make a mockery of servant leadership.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7szsZw1GYI

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #20 posted. Exposing the Abuse of Oneness

Examining how "the Lord's Recovery" hijacks the principle of unity for their own purposes, using it to control their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnai6i0SdhQ

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #21 posted. Exposing More Abuses of Oneness

More examination of how "the Lord's Recovery" hijacks the idea of oneness to control their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEARH1LGmGQ

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hey will you post it on YouTube continually? I am going to follow your channel.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Sorry, I don't know what you mean...

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode #22 posted. Exposing More Abuses of Oneness.

Noting the LC "rumor" squashing website shepherdingwords.com. And a call to speak out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51j5wtYvhpg

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Just started listening to your YouTube channel. Overall very good.

I do think there is one thing that might warrant a different perspective — not necessarily in the videos, but in our thinking. We constantly look back at the LC in the 60s and at least part of the 70s and think about how much certain things were so good.

And they were. But I am not sure that the LC was responsible for that. If you had your ear to the ground, so-to-speak, concerning trends in Christianity, there were many movements in the same direction. the LC was not the first inner-life group to come along. They were not the only group pushing more spiritual views of Christian practices. There were many. My family (I was in high school at the time) was enticed because it tapped into a kind of teaching that was coming from several directions around us.

That we now find more of mainstream Christianity speaking of things that they were not talking about in the 60s and 70s is not about the influence of the LC. It is about the influence of a diverse movement that had great impact on the whole. And so much of that movement was found within the churches it would eventually impact. Or by the people from those churches who also were involved in those inner-life groups.

Unlike the LC which attracted people away from others into a separate fold. The people who come to be part of the LC were people who had some desire toward where that kind of movement was going. They just got caught up in the LC's version of the movement.

But you are right that the LC has stagnated, going nowhere since that time. Why? Because the things that really made the LC were not the inner-life movement, but the specialties of their teaching. Ground. MOA. Deputy authority. God's best. The "up to date move of God." And so on. What was motivating about the early LC was the people who came seeking that inner-life. That were about unity, oneness, fellowship, etc. Things that were forefront at first. Once they were trapped in a system that convinced them they could not go, the joy began to fade. They still grind it out, but it does not look the same anymore.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Do you have transcripts, or is it strictly to be heard? I'm not suggesting turning it into a book format, though that might be something to consider, but putting it into a format readable by a Nook or Kindle app would be nice. It's harder to stop a YouTube video at any point and then return a day later. Close the browser and you are left either starting over or fishing for where you left off.

I realize that 15 to 30 minutes each is not particularly long, but either I need to carve it up, or put up with others complaining that I am taking too much time at any point.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks OBW! We've talked about making transcripts. YouTube is supposed to have some kind of service to do this, and I need to look into it. Thanks for the reminder.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E23 - shepherdingwords.com - Deputy Authority

Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" website shepherdingwords.com and its specious claims about "deputy authority."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXVlzmQue-Q

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E24 - shepherdingwords.com - DA, Shortcomings, MOTA

Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" website shepherdingwords.com and its specious claims about "deputy authority" and other matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_aichNcM4s

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E25 - shepherdingwords.com - Responding to a Listener's Comments

Responding to a listener's posted comments about "deputy authority."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzwIxNiYx7Y

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E26 - A Better Way to Determine Spiritual Authority

Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" views about determining spiritual authority and suggesting a simpler, better way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPybhGqEuoE

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hi, I think it would be good to address the matter of how the leaders in the Recovery not only claim "deputy authority" but they equate their "authority" with the Old Testament authority that certain people obviously had like Moses (and not so obviously had like Noah).

The leaders in the Recovery claim that if someone disagrees or "opposes" or "rebels" against them that they will suffer God's judgment as if one rebelled vs. Moses. Yet with Moses, you had all the accompanying signs of one that represents God in the Old Testament, i.e. commanding 10 supernatural plagues, helping to save and lead all the Israelites out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea, meeting with God at Mt. Sinai, receiving the 10 commandments, guiding the Israelites through the wilderness with miraculous manna, water out of a rock, cloud during the day, fire at night, etc, etc.

Now there is a big change in the New Testament and how authority is handled. Where are the accompanying signs of the leaders in the Recovery? No signs? So how can they claim the same consequences if one "rebels" against them.....

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Great points, Raptor, and I would add that Moses himself made it clear that Jehovah would one day raise up a Prophet like himself. (Deut 18.15)

There is exceedingly strong and overwhelming evidence that this coming Prophet was not Joshua, David, Peter, Paul, Nee, Lee, or Blended Wee, but Jesus, and only Jesus, who built God's house. (Hebrews 3.1-6)

And btw, here is a great polemic, written from the background of a false prophet from Arabia who also claimed Moses' authority, that connects Moses and Jesus is so many ways.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant

Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Great clip Cal.

I saw this comment on your channel: "Cal is so right when he says that "deputy authority" according to Witness Lee is the doctrine of demons. Paul said something similar to Timothy in I Tim 4.1-3. I'm sure Timothy wondered how "forbidding to marry, and abstaining from certain foods" could be so dangerous. But they were. Church history tells us this conclusively. The popes have also claimed to be the "deputy authority," the vicar of Christ, and popes throughout history have killed more genuine Christians than the Roman empire. This doctrine of "deputy authority," might be the worst doctrine there ever was because it can so easily abused by fallen men."

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E28 - shepherdingwords.com - Racism or Sexism in the LR?

Looking at claims of racism and sexism in the "the Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muxiF6FvmUs

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks for doing these videos, they are clear and to the point. I hope that people in the LC will come across these and listen to them.

The shepherdingwords.com tries to downplay the purpose and intention of LC teachings like deputy authority. WL's Pasadena conference is the perfect example of the fruit of that kind of that teaching.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks Freedom! I hope they are also short (enough) and living! ;)

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Keeping all your YouTubes short, quick, living, and to the point?

YES! :hysterical:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E29 - shepherdingwords.com - The Daystar Debacle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Examining the unethical actions of the leaders of the "the Lord's Recovery" movement of Witness Lee in the Daystar money-making scheme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjxRkTmql34

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

And since it was probably never reported on tax returns (a presumption) it was also likely a little bit of a money laundering scheme.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Good point about the ethical issues of Daystar. After 40+ years, there really isn't anything that could be done about the legal issues anyways, so the fact that they chose to use that as their argument definitely is a big smoke screen.


That was something I noticed right away when reading the article. They completely sidestepped any of the ethical issues.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I heard the best line ever from Cal . . .

"These guys are the most exclusive ever, they won't even be buried next to a non LCer." :hysterical:

.................................................. ...........

Hi Cal,

Have you done a segment on the Recovery burial ground at Grace Terrace Memorial Association in Rose Hills Memorial Park Cemetery?

Talk about fleecing the saints! LSM operates their own cemetery. They claim that you can get buried with the "holy saints" rather than with those "worldly" Christians. Anybody want to get buried next to Philip Lee? That will cost you extra.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I've talked about it a couple of times, but not in detail. Like I said, you can't make this stuff up! :lol:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E30 - shepherdingwords.com - The One Publication Edict

Examining the fact that the "the Lord's Recovery's" one publication edict proves it cannot be the "unique move of God."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsAKFf7RXyk

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E31 - Sheep, Wolf or Sheep Dog

Summarizing and expanding on the subjects I've covered so far, and why I feel called to speak out.

I'm going to try to take break for a while. This is a good place to pause and recharge. �� ��

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMxe99uiz00

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Naw this is very different. I can sense this brother is speaking truth in love in these youtube videos. I listened to all of them in a few days and it cheered my heart. When I saw the videos of Texas street preacher, it is hardly accurate and he is acting like a bully, and I can't sense any anointing. If The Lord ever spoke through a member, I am certain it wouldn't be like this. (Yes we can recognize his voice). He is merely just judging another and will probably fall into judgment himself. These youtube videos by "cal", as I see it, is spiritual discernment. The only thing I wonder about is who he is, and why he remains incognito, because I would like to send him a few questions :D any way to contact you brother "cal"?

I've been in fellowship with people meeting as the church and reading "the ministry" for 15 years, but the Lord has spoken to me and warned me about being proud, exclusive and falling into empty rituals. Sadly, (this is my personal belief I guess) I think many churches in the Lords recovery, even if the Lord came back, many of these brothers and sisters would still have the Lords table in their traditional way without realizing He came back. I hope I am wrong! The only pathway I see now it to practice to have brotherly love to ALL Christians, not insisting on anything, and personally living in the condition of Philadelphia. When these videos of "Cal" came out, it was like everything the Lord had spoken to me was articulated and it was great joy to me. I now meet with a few other Christian groups, but that isn't easy as well. In the Lords recovery I felt it was one extreme, reading ministry too much, but in the Christian groups i found another extreme, meeting where it all becomes a social arena instead of getting into the Word together. Being a Christians isn't too easy, I confess 😳 anyway thank you so much for the videos and please keep them coming. I hope also many that are currently in the Lords Recovery can listen to them and challenge themselves and search their heart in light of these videos. As soon as a group thinks it is above others there should be a red flag.
Sincerely from a seeking brother in Europe

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

SeekeroftheFullTruth, Thanks for your post! I have a wonderful solution to your problem. Simply send an Email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting membership for the forum (I have reserved "SeekeroftheFullTruth" for you to have for your UserName). We will shoot you back a temporary password and then you can communicate with Cal and others on the open forum, or through the Private Messaging system.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Your brother who is unto Him
-

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hi SeekeroftheFullTruth,

It makes me happy to know you've gotten some good from my videos.

As for my identity, I've always worked under a pseudonym on this forum, as most of us have, and it just seemed natural to continue that way. I prefer to protect my privacy as well as my family and to keep my options open. I've noticed though with Facebook now, many are speaking out about the LR under their real names, which is great. It's a new generation!

But UntoHim is right, if you get an LCD login, we can communicate with the personal messaging system here.

Thanks again for your kind words!

Just a note that I am going to try to take some time off and figure out which direction to take things going forward.

Blessings,

Cal

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E32 - It's Easier to Control Others When You're a Morally Exempt God-man - "The Lord's Recovery"

Showing how "the Lord's Recovery" leaders blur right and wrong to enable their controlling of their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

You mentioned in this YouTube presentation that Witness Lee after a Thanksgiving Conference in 1988 held an elders’ meeting on November 27, 1988, in the meeting place of the church in San Gabriel.

If you go to the Thread Bill Mallon’s Passing you will see a post by Thankful Jane dated 10-5-2019 in which she shares:
Some here may be interested in the link below that contains many handwritten notes by Bill Mallon made during two periods of Local Church "rebellions" (1977-78 and 1987-1992).

These notes are collaborative historical evidence that will aid in confirming what is true about these two so-called "rebellions." (Many of today's church-kids were born around the time Bill was making these notes.) His notes have not been made public before now. Over the years, the Living Stream Ministry leadership has rewritten history to support their own narrative (their cover-up) of the truth about things that happened during these so-called rebellions.

Out of respect for Bill, before reading any of his notes please read first all of the material in the topic/thread that begins with “Bill’s Request: ...” (It is also found at the link below.)

Bill Mallon Speaks Posthumously


When you click the above link and look in book VIII of Bill Mallon’s notes (11-23-88 to 1-4-89), specifically photocopies DSC03077 to DSC03080, you can read in real time what Bill was told by John Ingalls after this elders’ meeting. John Ingalls tells Bill that “W.L. is hardened, and almost wild, raving, vindicating himself.”
Please note the Topic entitled “Names of Leaders that Correspond to Initials Used in Bill’s Notes” for assistance with the abbreviations.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

You mention John So in this YouTube message and the one-publication edict.

I would refer those who are interested to go to Book III of Bill Mallon’s notes (see my post #68 for details.)

Specifically note photocopy DSC02543 In a conversation with John Ingalls on 1-7-88 in which J. I. says John So tells about Germany, that the saints there know “Mt 16 is the foundation of the church, that it was not given by W. L. or W. N., but the Father. No new way for Ecclesiastes states there is nothing new under the sun. He said he is happy they are far away, that Germans are not gullible.”

Also DSC02589-2590 “Don Rutledge urged me to call John So.” 3-2-88
“P. L. was on John So’s case for 2 years. 5 bros went to Germany to bring printing under Str control and to get them to submit to P. L. But John So couldn’t for conscience sake tho he gave them the liberty. 5 bros got daily instruct from P. L. Then Germany was cut off from Liv Str. Germany sent 4,000 sheets camera ready to L. Str but not printed… John So and Germany in old way. Str set up office in Eng and tried to cut off Germany, cause prob among Eng churches. Also now bros in Switz have permission to print anything but exclu Germany.”

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

This corresponds with John So's own testimony given to the saints in Manila. That is also worth reading.

It is beyond pathetic what Philip Lee did to the saints from Stuttgart in retaliation to John So resisting PL's domination.

Reading what Witness Lee allowed his sons to do to the saints caused me to lose all respect for him.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

When was the second RK clip recorded? Is that something recent?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E33 - A Spoken History of the Lord's Recovery (1960-1997)

A spoken version of Steve Isitt's "A History of the Lord's Recovery in the US." This history reveals little known surreptitious events in the movement from 1960 to 1997.

https://youtu.be/VpkP6jOZXXI

Transcript here: https://tinyurl.com/y6qx6spa

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I listen to these videos every day, and then I start all over again. I found this to be good antidote, and it helps me to wash away all the deception of the whole "ministry spirit" that is in LR and has crept into my heart without me noticing it. Today I called an elderly couple I havent had fellowship with since about 2010 because they "left." I took the word of the blended brothers, something like: "they are rebellious, full of death, opposing the Lord." It was some wonderful 58 min long fellowship ended by prayer. I discovered, they are not rebellious, not full of death and they are not opposing the Lord. They are opposing a ministry that replaces Christ as the solid Rock! As soon as I dropped the seperating wall A.K.A the ministry spirit, the foundation was there right away for life-giving fellowship with my beloved brother and sister I didnt reach out to for so many years. Immediately the love of Christ could flow between members. I got a deep realization of what Paul wrote: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you (Roman 15:7!)."

I heard Ron Kangas had said: Steve Issit is a man of death. And from the little I heard, he seemed to mock John Ingalls for following in the conscience, (I am sorry if I misunderstood this)
Ron Kangas will reply to the King: Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
King Jesus will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E34 - shepherdingwords.com - The Significance of Lily Hsu's Book

Responding to shepherdingwords.com's weak accusations about Lily Hsu's book "My Unforgettable Memories," whose contents cast much doubt on the claims and legacies of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

https://youtu.be/V8bV9uOnW2Q

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

googlelight, thanks for sharing this testimony.

This is exactly how LSM divides the body of Christ on a personal level.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E35 - Thoughts on Witness Lee's Trinity

Considering Witness Lee's view of the Trinity, and proposing a better view.

https://youtu.be/DLAQh3_8x3E

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

That was deep Cal :xx: Ive had 8 years+ of university, and I am still struggling to comprehend what you are saying :rollingeyesfrown::scratchhead::scratchhead::scrat chhead::scratchhead:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

lol

Then just try reading Jonathan Edward's essay. At least I tried to make it simple. :lol:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...20the%20Tr.pdf

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Simply put, I'm trying to say that Lee's view of the Trinity focuses on unconcious, impersonal processes (dispensing) rather than conscious, personal relationships (persons in fellowship), and that this lends to or parallels the LR's tendency to have a warped view of relationships.

I do not know whether Lee's view of the Trinity informs his view of relationship or vice versa. But I believe there is a connection.

The word we should think of when we consider the Trinity should be "relationship" before "dispensing."

I do not believe one who truly appreciates the love between the Father and the Son, which is the Spirit, can have the cold, distant view of relationships that the LR has. That is, something is wrong with their fundamental view of God himself. Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thank you Cal! I am trying to figure out your age (I guess I am just humanly curious). Contentwise, it seems like you have lived together with Methuselah, becoming 969. But Given you started to fellowship with LR at around 18+ in the 70s, it seems reasonable that you are between 60 and 70. I dont need an answer. My guess would be 64.

I thank you for your service to the Body of Christ. May your videos enlighten all. It is evident that you are not against anyone, but simply speaking the truth in love. For those in the bubble, you are probably now the enemy. I think there will be a time in near future 1 - 5 - 10 years, the Lord will descent to the ministry city, and the ministry tower man has built, and if it pleases Him, he will say: "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other" Genesis 11:7. I may stand corrected, but if this nevertheless happens, I think your videos Cal will help so many confused Christians, hopefully as much as it has helped me.
Today I have found more healthy Christians, where there is the liberty of the Spirit. The meetings are not perfect, and there are many things I am not used to, but I tell you, when I leave that group of Christian, I sense I am filled with love toward them, they hardly do anything right, but they love the Lord in a simple way. Again, thank you for your service Cal. Dont stop!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks, googlelight. You're support means a lot. I'm glad to be able to do something to help people. As to my age, let's just say (1) I feel younger than I am and (2) you are a sharp cookie. :)

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

hi Cal
You are one small potato. A small member in Christ just as all other members of the body of Christ. :)
Cal is only one of the YouTuber of The Age. :D
No offense.
You are 'matured' enough, by your own definition. :skeptical:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hello Cal,
I want to respond to your alternative proposition of the inner workings of the trinity. E35

I appreciate all the work and time you are putting into your youtube channel. What you have presented on the trinity certainly does address what lacks in WL’s assessment of who the trinity is. Weather true or not I don’t have enough insight to tell, but it seems far safer than The LC teaching on the trinity. I share your concerns about the damage it, along with much else that comes with the package of the LC, does to the people ensnared in it. I think it takes courage as well as work and time to deliver the messages on your channel.

I find Cal’s posts in themselves demonstrate what the local church lacks….rational, logical, sensible thought processing with a good dose of common sense. Its hard to argue against those and sound plausible, really.

We all rely on, and trust in, a legal system that bases its evaluations on the same principles. Where would our justice system be without them? And therefore our society? Stepping away from those principles is dangerous, in my view. It leads to superstition, and superstition is based in fear. It reverts to an uncivilised way of functioning, actually. A way that western civilisation broke out of as it developed the rule of law, human rights, scientific methodology, democracy etc. all these things are only possible with rational and logical thinking, something WL clearly had no appreciation or understanding of in its history or significance. He didn’t really understand the west, it’s clear. And he clashed against it when he turned against his American followers.

I hope I haven’t rambled.

Cal’s posts demonstrate good sound thinking as well as good conclusions. It’s clear he has given it all deep thought over a long period of time. It’s also noteworthy to me that he is not showing partiality. E28, ‘racism or sexism’ is one example amongst others, where he holds back and is not interested in blanket accusations beyond what he is certain of from his experience. (Those who have such experience can voice those grievances on this forum, and elsewhere, without clashing with him). This is what integrity does. An important detail to be respectful of too.

I hope he keeps going for as long as he feels lead to. I’ll be following them!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Is your point that you feel I've lifted myself up? If so, can you tell me why you feel that way? When did I say I've matured enough? If I said something like that you probably took it in a way I didn't mean. I certainly have more maturing to do.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I very much appreciate the support. And what you say I hope is true of me.

As 'least' said, I'm just one small potato. I don't have all the answers, I just have my view and feel led to make these videos at this time. I have no idea how long I will feel led to continue, but I hope people know that I'm not trying to make a name for myself or anything like that. I'm just trying to use the gifts and skills the Lord has given me for the good of his kingdom.

Not everything I say is going to agree with everyone. Realize that I'm not trying to define what should be true for everyone, but rather simply my own beliefs and views.

I'm not anything of any age. :gag:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I agree. From my memory, the stress was on individual performance. "Eating Jesus is the way", "turn to your spirit", "let's all gain Christ", and similar phrases, got the individual to focus on their own "experience and enjoyment", versus the experiences of Jesus Christ adjudicated by his relationship with the Father.

The experience of Jesus, on earth, v/v the Father in Heaven is amply documented, and I've covered it in such detail that many readers will be bored to tears, so I'll keep it short. "He (the Father) rescued me (the Son) because He delighted in me" in Psalm 18, for instance clearly was corroborated by NT statements that the Father delighted in the Son. We hardly need to cite them, but here's a slow-pitch softball: "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight. Hear him", e.g., Matthew 3:17; 2 Pet 1:17; cf Matt 17:5; 12:18.

When you see it, it's soooo obvious what's happening in the text: the Son loves the Father and obeys, the Father delights in the Son and raises him from the dead and gives him glory, and a kingdom that never ends. There's a relationship here that's constantly implied and often stated quite plainly, and is seen consistently in the doings of both parties.

Now, in covering Psalm 18, for instance, either WL would say, "No, God didn't delight in David - David was a sinner", or he'd say, "This is the NT believer enjoying grace on the proper church ground." But in the middle there's a big hole, where the actual person Jesus Christ lived - yes, in "coinherence" (or consubstantiation or what silly physics-level-term we use) - with the Father and by the Holy Spirit.

Sorry to rant but it's been a bit of a peeve - we arguably got short-changed, and the effect's been huge. Instead of focusing on Jesus the Christ as the Way to the Father, we'd focus on self-performance, which was whatever the MOTA wanted us to do, usually for 'ministry' benefit. Then the manipulative demands would begin - look at any HWMR outline, and count how many "we need to" and "we should" and "we must" are embedded in the text. It's rife with them. All WL's unmet needs got placed on the believer, with "making it" and "overcoming" and so forth connected with local church activities and performances. It became about one's relationship to ministry demands, with a distant and abstract "processed God" receding over the conceptual horizon.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E36 - The Basic Problem

Showing that the basic problem of the Lord's Recovery is their valuing their "vision" more than people, and thereby making people means to the end of fulfilling that "vision," resulting in abuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4kfH-KlW68

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Just plain excellent!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks. :) God is so good!

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"There is a lack of genuine care for people simply as people, there is a lack of love for people as people"

Cal, you have a gift. Keep going with your videos as the Lord leads you, you're doing a great job and helping people with your words (Ephesians 4:29, Proverbs 12:18) at least they have helped me to better understand the LC and given me the reassurance I needed at my darkest night, I couldn't thank you enough.

God bless you and the rest of pure hearts in this forum.

Psalm 118:5-6 “Out of my distress I called on the Lord; the Lord answered me and set me free. The Lord is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me?”

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I'm so glad you've been helped! Thank you.

Yes Lord! Bless the folks on this forum, on Facebook and all those who have joined together to help each other!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.

When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.

I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.

(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)

Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Very well said. The LR is all about "accomplishing God's purpose," and people are just means to that end, and thus expendable in the hands of the "co-workers" in that effort. People are valuable only to the extent they further the cause, otherwise they are just a problem.

But such an attitude make God's love hollow. In truth, the only thing that could have motivated Jesus to suffer and die on the cross the way he did was pure love--love both for the Father and for us. He endured it all for us, each one of us. That's love.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Sorry if I'm in left field on this thread. I shy away from social media, even youTube channels. Sorry Cal.

But Lee's economy was a failure over and over again. Well until he realized he could be successful pushing his books on the saints. That's why he kept Philip.

It reminds me of AmWay, that realized the real money was in selling the training tapes. LSM is still an ongoing vital business ... doing the same thing.

It should be noted, that it's not the church I pictured that Jesus promised to build. In fact, it's not a church by any definition ... but it's the backbone of Lee's LC movement ; "Gods'" Economy.

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E37 - A Broader Perspective

Pulling back to view the experience of "the Lord's Recovery" from a less religious, more general view, and proposing a fundamental principle for going forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrRSFDIpkLM

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

In a couple episodes you have mentioned Ron putting down listening to the conscience. Do you know where/when that was said and the context? Is there somewhere that could be listened to or anyone who has an excerpt of that?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Can you explain in detail how the LC downplay relationship? I know as a member you can have no friends but hanging around with their members. Is that what you mean?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

It's in Episode 32. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY

I don't know the whole context, but his point is clear. He is saying that John Ingalls was wrong for having a conscience problem with the way Philip Lee was handled. He is saying that "life" supersedes the conscience. This is not a healthy teaching.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

The LR in general discourages close relationships with anyone not in your immediate family. (I've even heard them teach "don't love your wife too much.") They discourage friendships, both with people inside and outside the LR. Witness Lee often spoke about not being "buddy-buddy" with anyone. These types of relationships were considered "soulish."

The LR also has a strange view of our relationship with God, they talk more about "experiencing" Christ (in a rather impersonal way) than getting to know Him as a person.

And the LR has an extreme view of our relationships with ourselves. They believe in "denying" the self to the point of low self esteem.

All these approaches work together for the LR to isolate you emotionally and take control of your emotional life in order to become the controlling emotional factor in your life. According to them, your sole source of enjoyment should be your experience of God, which of course they define. This furthers their control.

All these teaching are unhealthy.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks. Do you know where Ron said that? Was that at the recent summer training or somewhere else?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHjUTJuYBco

Here is the message by Ron Kangas revealing what he thinks of the conscience.

Dec 2018 at the 1:12:18 mark for context - 1:16.04 of the sound byte

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

You make some really good points here! I must admit I never saw "God's Economy" as such a central thing as some did. Even now, it is occasionally brought up here, but I don't think it has quite the same meaning as it did coming from WL. I got a lot out of the "Recovery" but at the same time it wasn't as much about the Person of Christ or our Father, as it was about the machinery that was God's economy. In other words, it was all about the purpose - God eternal has a purpose and He will get it regardless of you . . . and if you get in His way ----> SQUISH! You'll be flattened under the galactic steamroller.

After leaving the LC and drying out for several years, and coming to a place that didn't have that kind of spiritual baggage, I saw it was love that was His main motivation. As WL said near the end of his life, love was missing from the ministry, and I believe that to be quite true. Yes, God has a purpose, but the reason for His purpose is love . . . and the way He executes it is also all in love -- for us! We are brought into the love relationship between our Father and His Son!

A couple years ago we were going through some passages about His administration in His house (which can be called his economy). I saw that the order and the authority in the house was really for one key thing - so that everyone living in the house gets what they need - food, shelter, care, love and other attention. This is why there is an order . . . an administration - so that all God's riches can be loving dispense properly to all in need. It's the same in a human household - there needs to be some basic authority and headship. Why? So everyone can partake freely of all that the household has to offer. It's not "The economy stupid (as Clinton famously said);" it's love.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks. Do you have a rough idea where in the 90 minutes Ron talks about it?

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E38 - A Broader Perspective, Part 2

More looking at the controlling "Lord's Recovery" from a general view. In this video we encourage self-trust and the right to scrutinize any subject. Also information on Steve Hassan's BITE model of mind-controlling groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jATWIyrfTdI

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

What a sad mockery of John Ingalls.

Are we supposed to believe such "mockers" like Ran Kangas have now advanced? He is now "reigning" in life?

I call B.S. on this nonsense!

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E39 - A Broader Perspective, Part 3

More examination of "the Lord's Recovery" as a undo-influencing, controlling group, looking at how it lines up with Steve Hassan's "Influence Continuum." The results do not reflect well on the LR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr2P7ZS6ZLk

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Dear brother, it is so lovely you put this out. Maybe the Lord did make you a sheep-shepherd afterall! People in the LR might react to it, or dont like the things you share, but this is just the system in them reacting, which is totally to be expected. With time, if they are truly seeking our beloved Lord with a pure heart, they will see! In particular I love how you managed to put out some 39 episodes now without bitterness, slander or anything of that sort. You just say it like it is, just as Paul did to timothy; "Alexander the coppersmith did many evil things to me; the Lord will recompense him according to his works." After I have listened to all these episodes in depth and taking notes, the outcome of it is that I have had much wonderful fellowship with a variety of christians in my city, and returned to following my conscience and listening to the anointing. I shared my experience with a couple in the LR and to my great surprise, they agreed to all the things I related to them. I have no intention for them to leave or not to leave, but just to return back to the Lord. Sadly, In LR usually returning to the Lord is equivalent to returning to life-study/MR/blended brothers up-to-date speaking/the Vision/The Ministry/The Speaking of the Body.
You dont believe me? Id say like Johnny Cash:
"There are some people who say we cannot tell...
Well, I was there when it happened and so I guess I ought to know"

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks, gl. I appreciate it. I'm glad you've gotten some good out of them. I've had to throw out some of my attempts because I felt the spirit wasn't right. I just try to be honest and sincere and follow the Lord's guidance. And I try to not take myself too seriously. :)

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for them getting married without natural infection is fine, they said it's for the Lord. God obviously created us with the ability to favor and able to attract different gender, why such this weird group of people even exist?!

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E40 - A Broader Perspective, Concluding Thoughts

Wrapping up for now the investigation of "the Lord's Recovery" from a more general, sociological standpoint. Finishing up with a word of support and encouragement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4q_3RTt444

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E41 - If You Grew Up in "The Lord's Recovery"

Examining the particular needs of people who grew up in controlling groups, that growing up in a controlling group is not that uncommon, and that a full life post-group is possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1732nUnkyo

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E42 - Another Indicting Comparison

Comparing "the Lord's Recovery" to Cult Research's (cultresearch.org - Janja Lalich) list of defining characteristics of a cult. The results do not reflect well on "the Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHuy9XLdXd8

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E43 - The Linchpin of Control

More insight into the true nature of authority, and exposing some of the errors of "the Lord's Recovery's" view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bka89J3jcHg

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hello. I want to go a step further to what Cal is saying on episode 43,’ The Linchpin of Control’, on the claim of 'shepherding words' that we should submit weather the leaders are right or wrong. I want to add the following layer of response to that directive: to submit to something that is clearly wrong, or ‘evil’ IS rebellion against God. We can’t serve two masters, when we serve one, we are automatically rebelling against the other.

To even attempt to make a theology out of allowing evil in the pursuit of God, is evil itself. Resisting evil is not easy and can be hugely costly. Going with the flow for self-protection and self- preservation has happened over and over in history, its what the masses do, not the exceptions who create change for the better.

Submitting to evil is rebellion against good (God), it is an inescapable truth. And if the church allows evil then it is tolerating Jezebel, not being the church in Philadelphia any more. Is that what the shepherding words are trying to tell us? They want to switch to be the church in Thyatira, just for a change?

How can the church be a testimony of God to the world if it allows evil to flourish without hinderance? The answer is simple, she can’t. there will be no testimony of God in her if she presents the character of the world. Satan is the ruler of this world, in other words, the world is already in submission to evil. THE difference between the world and the kingdom of God, IS who rules. Satan is God’s enemy, how can submitting to the enemy of your King be obedience to your King? This is completely non-sensical.

How could David have been forgiven and restored to God after Bathsheba if the prophet Nathan had not confronted him? He could’ve lost his relationship with God through it. Accountability is God’s grace to the leader, as much as for any other reason. The purpose is for restoration of that leader, not destruction.

To create a theology to avoid that shows great rebellion against the fundamentals of Christianity. Sorry, LC leaders. It’s a critical failure on your part. Bless you.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

It depends on what we consider is "wrong." LSM built their teaching around Moses marrying a foreigner, and Noah drinking too much wine. They then infer that any error by The Deputy Authority, regardless of seriousness, is only a test to the rest of God's people. Any and all criticisms of this Deputy will result in swift judgment from God.

But look at the fruit of such a teaching. Has God really given a carte blanche license for some "Deputy" to sin? What then are the limits placed on his failures? And how is it that the Deputy alone gets to decide that he alone is the Deputy? At least the Pope has a college of Cardinals to select him.

Think about the lust for power which then inevitably develops in fallen leaders. Who would not want to be above the law concerning all their failures. I have long been convinced that the constant rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland was due to such perks for the winner. Could not Lee's successor, the subsequent MOTA, now eliminate his rival by fabricated charges resulting in quarantine.

Does not these MOTA teachings, by definition, result in ecclesiastical politics? Is this not ruling like the Gentiles? Did not our Lord specifically warn us about this?

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For the pity of the 'sisters', calling for comments on Minoru Chen's messages to the LSM LC LR 'sisters'. 2019 messages. And 18 lessons for sisters!

Search : 2019 NorCal Sisters Conference

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

V
Just read about a young man in the Philippines who left the RCC, tried several Protestant groups, flirted with atheism, then finally decided that he could recover God's original intended church, with himself as Executive Minister (naturally). This was 1914. He managed to convince thousands to follow him over several decades, then his son took over & globalised it and now they have several million adherents. Seems they teach that salvation is contingent on church membership, as all other groups are apostate.

Now the grandson's in charge, and he's purged other family members including his mother(!), and he's free to do as he wants. He's now the Executive Minister, after all. They make every congregation repeat the sermon from HQ every Sunday morning, play videos promoting the Executive Minister's leadership, warn members to stay away from the internet, social media and anyone who criticizes the church leadership, or who publicly note the EM's lavish lifestyle....

The more I read about such controlling and abusive sects, the deeper my suspicion that these aren't flawed five-talented ministers - Drunken Noah, anyone? - but rather one- and two- talented ones aiming for positions to which they've no claim to. It's exactly the gentile-styled "leadership" the Lord warned us about. Ohio is right.

Here's a powerful prayer as antidote for such fallen aims. Psalm 19:13(a) says, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins". Those who fall into the sin of presumption will be sent down - Jesus' teaching made this clear. We're not ignorant of the enemy's schemes. There's little difference between Felix Y. Manalo and Watchman Nee, except the vagaries of geography and culture.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_ni_Cristo

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ACan you provide a transcript, or at least a synopsis?

And I'm still waiting to hear why they sell books by Mary McDonough et al, then tell women that their place is to be silent in church.

The discussion of womens' roles in the contemporary church is not without some difficulty. But we should at least expect one's position to be coherent and self consistent.

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Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Will look into this.

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E44 - Five New Articles on shepherdingwords.com - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Examining more misleading information put out by "the co-workers in 'the Lords's Recovery' in North America."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rGpWkEJrzY

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E45 - Looking at Minoru Chen's Messages to Sisters

Some commentary on messages regarding the role of women in "the Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpxRTNlTCHE

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E46 - A Look at the Netflix Documentary "Cults Explained "

Commentary on the well-done Netflix "Cults, Explained' documentary.

Episode video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nqx3SDecWo

Documentary video here: http://bit.ly/CultsExplained

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https://youtu.be/SdXXUIvhP30

Hi Cal, just wanted to share this perspective from ones discussing the last few minutes of Minorus message to the sisters. I think you said you didn't listen to the whole thing? I didn't either, but this member (members?) found some cause for concern.

It just seems like the culture of silence Minoru is promoting amongst the sisters speaks in defiance of Gods' word....in the council of many is safety.....

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

We're still waiting for the culture of silence to be broken.

MC: "And now we'll address any questions or issues you may have."

Sister X: ""I'm wondering when I can have my book published by LSM, to take its place besides the one by Mary McDonough. Why is LSM selling her book online, and not mine?"
MC: "I'm sorry, my dear sisters, but the door for revelation to sisters is now closed. Once Brother Nee put quill to parchment, that age ended, and a new age began. But don't worry, there's a place for you today, in the children's meetings."

Sister Y: "Brother Minoru, we can see in ministry literature that sisters once held responsible positions next to Lee and Nee. In writing on the resumption of Watchman Nee's ministry, for example, WL said that only two sisters sat up front with him as Nee talked, while the rest of the congregation was seated apart. So what happened to the role of women in the church?"
MC: "Again, my dear sisters, you have to understand that the age changed. Today, your responsibility is to be docile and listen to my patronizing lectures."

Sister Z: "Did anyone ever tell you that you're full of baloney?"

The counsel of many will be restored, as is stated in Proverbs. In many counselors, battles are one, and safety is secured. May the Lord grant all of us courage to seek this, and to speak out our counsel, and not give up. Minoru's a Christian confessor, yet at present he seems willing to live with such glaring contradictions (among many), and then becomes a tool of oppression and control.

In the church, it's the age of Jesus Christ, not the age of spiritual giants nor the age of small potatoes. Each one has a voice in the common counsel, and none should be denied. There's no male or female, young or old, slave or free man, Jew or Greek. rich or poor. If LSM Blendeds won't step up and lead believers into this, someone else will. A new day has dawned, the saints are going on.

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I took down that message after realizing it gave people an impression I didn't mean to give.

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E45 - Looking at Minoru Chen's Messages to Sisters

Some second thoughts on this sensitive subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyP4PW0t90

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E45 - Looking at Minoru Chen's Messages to Sisters

Some second thoughts on this sensitive subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyP4PW0t90

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

The only portion of the sisters message I listened to was that final 9 minutes in the link I posted. Minorus' message was very clear. When women speak, it is gossip. It saddens me to know this is the double speak all those sisters are receiving as 'coming from God' or 'a word from God'. I know that is what I used to think about the messages coming from the LC elder brothers.

Again, this conflicts with Gods will for us, coming together in 2s or 3s, in fellowship, in prayer. I don't know how that can happen if women are being indoctrinated that their interpersonal communication and sharing is nothing but gossip and should be avoided. Let me say here, I agree with God, gossip is not for believers. However, to proclaim this from the pulpit, and the weight this gives the leadership, is so wrong. The Lord Spirit is capable of leading our communications in holiness, and we can also know His voice.

Thanks for looking at it again, Cal. I probably don't know enough about this matter to comment either. But then again, I can't stomach listening to this 'ministry' anymore.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

The only portion of the sisters message I listened to was that final 9 minutes in the link I posted. Minorus' message was very clear. When women speak, it is gossip. It saddens me to know this is the double speak all those sisters are receiving as 'coming from God' or 'a word from God'. I know that is what I used to think about the messages coming from the LC elder brothers.

Again, this conflicts with Gods will for us, coming together in 2s or 3s, in fellowship, in prayer. I don't know how that can happen if women are being indoctrinated that their interpersonal communication and sharing is nothing but gossip and should be avoided. Let me say here, I agree with God, gossip is not for believers. However, to proclaim this from the pulpit, and the weight this gives the leadership, is so wrong. The Lord Spirit is capable of leading our communications in holiness, and we can also know His voice.

Thanks for looking at it again, Cal. I probably don't know enough about this matter to comment either. But then again, I can't stomach listening to this 'ministry' anymore.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Amen to moving on with Jesus, and away from this insidious LC imbalance. The Lord is awesome and I love witnessing the portion He gave to each member, both brothers and sisters. Balance is the word used and recognized in many Christian voices and perspectives, and it is the balance I so appreciate. Imbalance seems to be the fruit of believing your own little group has the only authentic view/speaking from God/practices.....

This morning I can't stop thinking how balanced everything will be when we are in His presence in heaven. He will restore it. Just as He will restore our souls!

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E47 - Women in God's Kingdom - The Original Intent

A look at God's original intent for men and women, and how the improvements in the world's culture just might be the work of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcto5MmhvMM

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E48 - Wrapping Things Up

A summary of what I've spoken before. In a glide path to 50 episodes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDIcNkeMP7U

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E49 - Three Life Principles

Presenting three basic life principles which are based on the two greatest commandments, and showing how "the Lord's Recovery" missed them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u4Nsw6JxaE

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E50 - The Power of Knowing God

Explaining that, from my personal experience, the only way to be truly free is to break through to God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d4CyZQoPi4

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E51 - Covering Up, Not Covering

First part of examining "the Lord's Recovery's" misinterpretation and misuse of the biblical story of Noah's curse of Ham and Canaan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N55gxAg0IlU

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E52 - Covering Up, Not Covering, Part 2

Second part of examining "the Lord's Recovery's" misinterpretation and misuse of the biblical story of Noah's curse of Ham and Canaan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhJKz8Zb2w

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hi, I have just got to add my 2 cents worth here.

I’m joining my comment to this teaching on: Noah cursed, and it caused great harm. It did not reflect God’s ways but rather the fallen human nature, in opposition to God’s character and intent. That’s a brief summary of what I hear in episode 52.

Now I want to go ahead in time to the establishment of the twelve tribes if Israel. To establish something God could bless, I see a reversal of what Noah did….I see the engaging of the principles of repentance and forgiveness as laying a necessary foundation for moving forward as the people of God.

Joseph’s brothers hurt him, Benjamin, and their father through their anger that they were treated badly while he was given special status. They sinned in a cruel way towards Joseph. Joseph was deeply hurt by what they did. Yet in the end they showed the depth of their repentance, and Joseph extended his heart and forgave them, genuinely. (…Another brief summary).

(A brief note, lots of bible commentators are harsh on the Joseph’s brothers. It helps to look at them with more compassion than traditional thinking affords them).

The story is a great example of how people can hurt each other in families, especially with favouritism. And is illustrates the principle in the Lord’s prayer ‘forgive us our sins (repentance) as we forgive those who sin against us (forgiveness).

As a conclusion, Israel could never have been established with its twelve tribes if this reconciliation did not happen. The forming of Israel as a nation depended on it. that is very significant.

Back to Noah, he could’ve repented to his son for his outburst. Ham could’ve forgiven his father, and it could’ve all been resolved using principles of God’s Kingdom, and the division would not have persisted. God’s prescription for repentance and forgiveness are His antidote for division, and destruction of relationships. Noah and his sons didn’t know that, and the rest is history, as outlined on the channel. The LRM of WL cannot avoid ongoing division unless they do it God’s way. God’s way works, as you can see from the story of Joseph, and is clearly instructed in the new testament.

By ‘cursing’ dissenters the LRM are acting in spiritual blindness and are validating the flesh as described by Cal. Noah didn’t know better, he wasn’t provided a new testament copy of the bible!!. But we don't have that excuse anymore, and neither does the LRM.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

If the Recovery teaching about "covering" were an actual truth of the Bible, then shouldn't King David have cursed the prophet Nathan for not "covering" him? (II Samuel 12)

David was, after all, the greatest anointed king of Israel. If ever there was needed this "covering" teaching it was for him.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Well said, Curious.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

They might say that Nathan "uncovered" David in private. But the Bible records the uncovering. So much for David's privacy. They might said, well, David is not here anymore. But neither is Witness Lee. So why do they need to keep "covering" him? Wouldn't it be better if everyone was able to learn from his failures, as we are from David's? But then his mystique as MOTA would be compromised. Turns out that's what protecting his image is all about.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Because as quick as the MOTA gets uncovered(thank you, LCD) the book buying stops and the book burning begins.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E53 - Covering Up, Not Covering, Part 3

Third part of examining "the Lord's Recovery's" misinterpretation and misuse of the biblical story of Noah's curse of Ham and Canaan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRBSctAYZ2w

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E54 - The One New Testament Ministry?

Examining shepherdingwords.com's historical revisionistic claims about Witness Lee's "unique ministry of the age."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzt90Qa7UOs

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

On episode 54 you question the confidence in which on their 'shepherding words' site, the apostles of the LR flatly deny what any ex-LC person knows to be, some of the very clear, core, defining beleifs about themselves. This is indeed, quite surprising, and you raise the question of what they may be up to.

To learn about the actual teachings of the localchurch, for a long time I tapped my questions into Google.... 'Witness Lee on (.......)', whatever I was puzzled about. It took me to 'life studies' and exerpts from various of his books. Some things I found that were the most revealing in the way that I could not accept as a christian, I can't find them anymore. They don't appear from the same word prompts.
I didn't keep a record of where they were so i can't trace them..... it's a while ago now. I think its possible they have re-edited WL's writings as supplied on the Internet, that way they can adapt, remove some of the more judgemental, hostile to Christianity in general, and ridiculous things, without acknowledging any mistake or alteration.

That's my suspicion....They are slowly and secretly adapting themselves to a more user-friendly model of operation. While denying any adaption. Even younger LCers were more accepting of other Christians than older LCers I experienced. That's my theory to offer anyway.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

On episode 54 you question the confidence in which on their 'shepherding words' site, the apostles of the LR flatly deny what any ex-LC person knows to be, some of the very clear, core, defining beleifs about themselves. This is indeed, quite surprising, and you raise the question of what they may be up to.

To learn about the actual teachings of the localchurch, for a long time I tapped my questions into Google.... 'Witness Lee on (.......)', whatever I was puzzled about. It took me to 'life studies' and exerpts from various of his books. Some things I found that were the most revealing in the way that I could not accept as a christian, I can't find them anymore. They don't appear from the same word prompts.
I didn't keep a record of where they were so i can't trace them..... it's a while ago now. I think its possible they have re-edited WL's writings as supplied on the Internet, that way they can adapt, remove some of the more judgemental, hostile-to-Christianity in general, and ridiculous things, without acknowledging any mistake or alteration.

That's my suspicion....They are slowly and secretly adapting themselves to a more user-friendly model of operation. While denying any adaption. Even younger LCers were more accepting of other Christians than older LCers I experienced. That's my theory to offer anyway.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Curious, I think there is some of what you say going on. And the denial and duplicity which accompanies it, particularly the accusing others of slander, who are simply reporting what the LR has at least internally proclaimed and taught, is unacceptable.

If they are trying to improve their beliefs and message that is good, but to go about it by denying they have held to bad beliefs in the past, and further to accuse others of slander who testify to that, is not encouraging at all.

They are either clueless or liars.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I agree with you Cal. If an organisation is fundamentally honest and able to be responsible, and take the rap itself for its own past mistakes and problems, then everyone is safe.

No-one is safe in an organisation where those in charge are fundamentally blame-shifters and liars, regardless of their potential doctrinal improvements. The habit of lying is problematic enough on its own and reveal where their hearts are at. Protecting, defending and justifying themselves and their pride while caring not who they turf under the bus to do so, reveals much about their heart and motives. Lies hurt people, there’s good reason why one of the 10 commandments instructs us not to do it. Its as plain and simple as that.

To lay themselves out honestly would be for them to trust God for the outcome, an act of actual faith on their part. To lie and cover up reveals no faith on God, nor fear of Him, nor love for Him (as to love him is to love His ways). That equation adds up to....no real belief in Him!

They do not demonstrate integrity, and in refusing to be vulnerable or duly responsible, they therefore remain immature, both personally and corporately. What a dangerous thing for anybody to offer trust into such a system. Anyone who does so puts themselves at great risk of harm, needlessly.

But we can all learn important lessons from exposure to this organisation, lessons that can be a great protection going forwards. That's the positive aspect which is ultimately the most important thing. May we all be transparent, honest, responsible for our own actions, and have the courage to be vulnerable, and never underestimate the value of integrity.

Lastly, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that in order to survive they do have to alter things that WL taught. Sites like this forum help them to identify what those things are, as they will be hard to see from within their closed system. They want to survive, but God doesn't endorse lying, to serve Him you have to play by His rules.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Or maybe, like some other fringe groups of the past that eventually became more mainstream Christians, they are on the first steps of a journey from their fringe back into the fold.

Naaahhhh

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E55 - Max, John and Other Abuses

Examining the half-truths and lies presented by "the Lord's Recovery" about how it handled Max Rapoport, John Ingalls and other abuses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAR5WQ3cJMs

Re: John Ingalls / Minoru Chen Anaheim Annual Corporate Meeting
 

http://www.ourneedtoexamineourselves...ateMeeting.pdf

John Ingalls explains his experience in the required annual business meeting referred to in Shepherding Words. Brother Lee had strategically moved Minoru Chen into position as an elder in Anaheim.


Excerpt

"The business meeting and election were to take place on the Lord’s Day, March 5th. On Thursday evening, March 2nd, Al and I met with Minoru Chen and Philip Lim to discuss the agenda for the business meeting. Minoru made a point very strongly that according to our custom the directors should always be elders. In fact, without our knowledge, in the preceding Lord’s Day meeting on the Chinese-speaking side, Minoru had educated the saints to this effect, pointing out that in the coming election for directors, they should do the same on the English-speaking side. This we declined to do in the present divided situation, since the by-laws expressly stated that any member of the corporation could be nominated and elected to the post. We anticipated that this time we would have to vote by ballot as there would likely be more than one candidate nominated.

Re: John Ingalls / Minoru Chen Anaheim Annual Corporate Meeting
 

Interesting! Reminds me of the Midwest quarantines.

As DCP swept in to steal meeting halls, all the Midwest LC's were suddenly forced to examine their bylaws and prep the saints for contentious elections.

Re: John Ingalls / Minoru Chen Anaheim Annual Corporate Meeting
 

E56 - "Assailing" the Local Ground

More exposing the fallacies of "the Lord's Recovery's" teaching of "the local ground of oneness."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyEdrmkVX-g

Re: John Ingalls / Minoru Chen Anaheim Annual Corporate Meeting
 

E57 - Ron Kangas, the Demeaning of Women and the Real Cause of "Turmoils"

Examining the words of Ron Kangas, the demeaning of women and the real cause of so-called turmoils in "the Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGVbCk8tdSo

Re: John Ingalls / Minoru Chen Anaheim Annual Corporate Meeting
 

E58 - "The Lord's Recovery's" Wrongheaded Views of Political and Social Activism

Refuting "the Lord's Recovery's" backward claims that Christians should not be involved in political or social activism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N6tG8NR1JM

Re: John Ingalls / Minoru Chen Anaheim Annual Corporate Meeting
 

E59 - Analyzing a Typical Ron Kangas Rant

Exposing "the Lord's Recovery's" demagogic us-versus-them mentality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRSqGyPW5pA

RE: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E60 - More on Ron Kangas's Rant - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

More insight into the demagoguery of "the Lord's Recovery"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csH_A1KIAd0

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E61 - The Greatest Among Us

Exposing the emptiness of "the Lord's Recovery's" claim of being "God's best."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXOS02lN43Y

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hi Cal, maybe you want to speak about the fruits of exclusivity?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Christian Piano and Instrumental Music

Five and a half hours of gentle Christian piano and instrumental music. Classic and modern hymns and inspirational selections. Blackscreen for listening using your television.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3dW7M0b_30

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E62 - Just One More "One True Way" - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Shedding more light on "the Lord's Recovery's" confusing themselves with their ideal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K67yBa6GYyo

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks for all the time and work you've put into these 62 episodes, Cal.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

You're welcome. And thank you, too.


Sorry I missed this. I feel like I've covered this some. But I will think and pray about about it some more and see where the Lord leads. Thanks for the suggestion.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E63 - Truly a Legacy of Shame - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Quotations from leaders of aberrant groups down through history show that "the Lord's Recovery's" claims of being the unique move of God are nothing new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdF-zGteMgo

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Wow, this episode is fabulous. All the episodes are good, and great, but this one really takes the axe to the root of the tree. And in a broader way. ANY group claiming this set of 'delusions' is exposed and therefore this episode is perhaps a very necessary guide to those leaving, as to what may feel familiar and attractive but is to be a red flag.

I have a friend who has gone through three exclusive groups, each time believing themselves to be in 'the one' true church. This friend cares nothing for listening to anyone outside their current group for advice, including me. This information is a great way to avoid that fate for those leaving the LC. Excellent work, and very relevant.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

this is a masterpiece. But Cal you should share positive experience after you left and join other groups. I think for that you can have another 50+ videos, your channel is helpful for those who had left and still a believer of Jesus.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks JiL, I have shared some positive experiences since the LR, things, but I will share some more. Thanks!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E64 - What to Do? Where to Go? What to Be? - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Thoughts on some questions I've received and on going forward from wherever you find yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxlI7in83IM

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

An old-fashioned saying that I think sums up the relationship between loving others, trust, and one's having ownership of one's own choices and responsibilities in life goes like this:

'Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe!'

I say that over in my mind whenever something pops up around me that could compromise one of those 3 values. I think it harmonises well with episode 64.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Very encouraging, brother! The Lord was amening your message within!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Love it. Thanks, Curious!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Glad it helped!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E65- Examining Witness Lee's "God's Eternal Purpose and Economy" - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement

Taking a look at what's right and wrong about Witness Lee's view of God's purpose and economy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW2EfhoU6uQ

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E66 - Some Humble Advice to Ron Kangas and the Other Co-workers in the LR in North America

Some sincere tongue-in-cheek advice to the continuation of the one true ministry of the age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr1eYg2jGDo

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Cal, this was a great example of the Lord's recovery's hypocritical positions taken to their logical end.

Honestly I'm surprised the blended brothers haven't contacted you directly yet to join their ranks - you represented their teachings perfectly! :hysterical:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks Trapped!

I'm awaiting the call.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E67 - Speech and Thought Control in Action - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

In "the Lord's Recovery," crisis control equals speech and thought control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtZ3BsZrt0I

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E68 - Partial Inspiration, Temporal Discipline and Endless Self-Promotion

Seemingly everything "the Lord's Recovery" teaches is an opportunity for them to promote themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blt3RPv5h6g

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Self-Promotion is always at the expense of God's Firstborn Son!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E69 - No, Witness Lee wasn't an Apostle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

Responding to the shepherdingwords.com article on apostles and co-workers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyng2LDKbI

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E70 - The Appalling "Apostle" Effect - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

More examination into the bad fruit produced by claiming apostleship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW8_coUuG0

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hey Cal, I realized later you covered everything I mentioned in my comment. (I listened to this installment with giggling 6 and 11 year olds literally crawling all over me.) Next time I will slow down and listen to the whole thing before I start ranting.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I didn't think you were ranting. I always appreciate your comments They've been a big help. Yep, kids and puppies can be a distraction, but they are worth it. I'm dealing with the latter right now.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Awe, well puppies are at least as much fun as children. They probably go to bed easier too. ;-)

Re: Emanna today on Apostles fellowship
 

Brothers at LSM / E-manna appear to be following Cal Freeman's posts on Apostleship. Their fellowship might help us, while they, perhaps, might pick up key and essential points from Cal.


The Fellowship of the Apostles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bible Verses~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the teaching
and the fellowship of the apostles, in the breaking of bread and the prayers.
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Words of Ministry~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Part 2 of 2]
The word "fellowship" used in Acts 2:42 and 1 John 1:3
indicates the putting away of private interest and the joining with others for a certain common purpose. Hence, to have fellowship with the apostles, to be in the fellowship of the apostles, and to have fellowship with the Triune God in the apostles' fellowship, is to put away our private interests and join with the apostles and the Triune God for the carrying out of God's purpose. Our participation in the apostles' enjoyment of the Triune God is our joining with them and with the Triune God for His divine purpose, which is common to God, the apostles, and all the believers.

The fellowship of the apostles is open, receiving all kinds of genuine believers in Christ. For example, this fellowship receives believers who have been immersed and believers who have been sprinkled. Furthermore, those in this fellowship do not require that believers be immersed only by them.

However, certain sects insist that only their baptism is valid. They may insist that a believer be baptized again if he wants to join their group. This is an illustration of a fellowship that is different from the fellowship of the apostles.

Do you know how to determine whether or not a particular Christian group is a sect? One way to determine this is to check whether or not that group receives all real believers in Christ. Any group that does not receive all true believers is a sect and is not practicing the fellowship of
the apostles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

Bible verses are taken from the Recovery Version of the
Bible and Words of Ministry, from Witness Lee, Life-
study of Acts, pp. 93-94. Both are published by Living
Stream Ministry, Anaheim, CA.

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Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thank you for this profound video.
I got EF. 4:16 while listening.
The Body.. Builds up itself in... love
Not through the ministry of the age, or Gods economy... In love. Thank you. This is true light...it has set me free

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

So glad it helped! Blessings to you!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E71 - Looking at a Defense and Confirmation Project Publication, Part 1 - The LR Movement of W. Lee

Responding to a DCP publication which defends "the Lord's Recovery's" criticism of everyone but themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiS7jsHkQFU

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E72 - Coronavirus and "the Lord's Recovery" Questions vs Questionings - The LR Movement of W. Lee

Checking in about the coronavirus, and making some parallels with "the Lord's Recovery"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW6WgayLQVs

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E73 - Coronavirus and "the Lord's Recovery" Commenting on a Comment - The LR Movement of W. Lee

More discussion on the coronavirus and "the Lord's Recovery" and addressing a listener's comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uoTTYFYRZY

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E74 - The Top 10 Things "the Lord's Recovery Got Right - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

My top ten list of the best of "the Lord's Recovery"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gskEKEak7-g

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Episode 74, I just want to say, excellent! So clear-thinking and wise to seperate the good out, and name it. Amongst this list are the things that I liked and was drawn to, the functioning of the believers to share together that makes things interactive and alive, rather than always sitting and listening to a speaker only. And pray-reading within the context Cal outlines has really helped me absorb mentally and spiritually from what I read, a practise I have taken on with me too.

This episode is excellent in helping to redeem the good from this movement, cutting through the confusion, which is one of the biggest issues for all of us impacted by the LRM. I predict it to be of immense benefit to those leaving and trying to sort it all out. Its really a true 'balancing word'!

I am looking forward to next episode!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thank you, Curious! I appreciate your prayers asking the Lord to give me wisdom in what I speak. It's easy to be a smart-aleck. In fact... it comes naturally to me! :D

But I need to be tenderhearted, too. Our amazing God knows how to act in every situation. He is my example. Thanks again, and stay healthy!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

*************

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E75 - The Top 5 Things "the Lord's Recovery Got Wrong - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

My top five list of the worst of "the Lords' Recovery"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UEZj-2Nb2I

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E76 - Get Me to the Church On TIme - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

How "the Lord's Recovery" has missed what God really wants us to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGNqx1jxAdA

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E77 - The Failed Experiment - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

Update on the progress of the channel, some odds and ends, and a look at the failed experiment called "the Lord's Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RglabkiR6II

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E78 - Ten Things "The Lord's Recovery" Should Do to Reform - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

Ten Things "the Lord's Recovery" must do to have a future besides being a fringe, suspect group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxBbmXF29ac

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

This is a great video. So many of the problems within the LC are related to things like their authority structure or lack of humility. It's hard to believe how they can remain so oblivious to some of these readily apparent problems like their public perception, members leaving, etc.

Before I left, it seemed like there was was an ever-increasing disregard for current members who were struggling or who might be considering leaving. Even just in general, the LC didn't give any thought to making the environment the type of place that people would want to be part of.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

It is the lack of humility why there will not be repentance, reconciliation, or reform. I know it will be refuted, but the fruit of deputy authority doctrine is pride.
The LC is fully rejecting any culpability why members leave. It's completely owned by those who leave. It's usually labeled by any number of adjectives as the cause why brothers or sisters leave.
The LC attitude is that of a math formula. Just plug yourself into the ministry and the ministry will take care of you.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

They have a great little system set up for this kind of stuff.

Having problems? You are too much in your mind.

Speaking up? You are rebellious.

Leaving to get help? You just remained in unforgiven offense.

Speaking up after you leave? DCP goes after you.

And then they circle tighter and shun the struggling member so their echo chamber reinforces itself all the more.

It's sad because the effect is on human lives. But since they circled tighter they don't see the effect. And even when they do see the effect, they, uncomprehendingly, don't care.

They are so steeped in a ministry that requires them to suspend logical thought to accept it that when they are confronted with reasonable discourse and logic it literally does not compute. It truly is so strange to encounter.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

When I hear "shun" as it relates to the LC I always think of the Amish practice. There is little difference. Why would you turn your back on someone just because they leave your group!? This is so silly and unbiblical. I can't think of anywhere in scripture that this sort of thing is even vaguely mentioned - am I wrong? While there are places in the word that speak of distancing oneself if a brother is in gross sin or strongly divisive, but nowhere does this extend to what we are talking about here - someone who is merely questioning and perhaps just wants to leave (or has left).

The only reason I can see the LC does this is a defense mechanism - man's attempt to protect a system and control something they don't like. Well boo hoo, show some maturity and get over it! Love and acceptance is to be extended to every member of the body of Christ - NO EXCEPTION. And especially not for some trivial and silly notion like this!

Where I've fellowshipped these past couple decades, many have come and gone for various reasons, including some that didn't quite agree with what was going on here. NOT ONCE have I seen the saints here SHUN someone because of this kind of nonsense. On the contrary, there is a lot of reaching out to just have simple fellowship in the enjoyment of Christ with one another, regardless whether they see fit to meet with us or not. And even if they don't want to come to a Sunday ministry gathering, oftentimes they show up at smaller fellowship and bible study gatherings.

Saints in the LC - this ought not to be so!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E79 - Responding to a "Lord's Recovery" Member - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee.

Responding to a long message from a "Lord's Recovery" member.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9abIN1epoHg

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E80 - Feel Free to Enjoy Your Soul - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

Exposing the "Lord's Recovery's" draconian micro-managing of people's inner lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8vp_eXLtxU

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Yes, opinion is certainly the work of the devil in us. Adam and Eve had no opinions or nasty soulish 'feelings' before the fall. We know this because it must be so, so that Witness Lee is proved correct.

Also, God forgot to put this in the 10 Commandments. After all, it was a stressful time with the Israelites rebelling at the bottom of the mountain the whole while. it must have been very distracting!

I’m sure if Jesus’ ministry lasted more than 3 short years, he would’ve remembered to mention it too. Good thing WL was able to articulate it for the Godhead….better late than never I guess…..it just proves his value as MOTA.

However, shocking though it may seem, there something even WORSE than opinion (and peculiarity-another gem of wisdom from the riches of WL’s ministry) Yes indeedy there is. And I’m here to let everyone here know what that is……it is being magnanimous. WL saw the danger in this as even worse than having an opinion. It is having an opinion that he couldn’t get at!!!!

You can find his insight on this matter covered in his book “The experience of Life” chapter 10, section 8-9, or Google ‘Witness Lee magnanimous’.

To hold one’s own counsel and keep ones own opinions to oneself, to have emotional self-control and be generous hearted enough to tolerate the differences of others, to also perceive the futility of arguing a point when hearers would clearly reject any discussion…..all these are more dangerous and sinister than merely having an opinion.

(Additionally, they are so frustrating when you are attempting to steam-roller a person into submission, where do you lever-up an edge, gain an advantage over someone who cannot be riled, and try as you may, you can't force to engage on your terms? I’m sure nothing could be more frustrating for our poor MOTA than this ability to remain not susceptible to his efforts to get inside someone’s head!)

Somewhere that I can’t find it continued to say that having an opinion and emotional reaction is better than being magnanimous, as at least there is an opening to 'deal with' the person in the case that what is inside them is not under their own control! (my summary of the text).

The dictionary defines ‘magnanimous’ as: ‘being generous and kind in forgiving an insult or injury, free from petty resentfulness or vindictiveness’. This definition makes me think straight away, of 1 Corinthians chapter 13 v 4-7.

According to WL, to be magnanimous means to be ‘self-righteous’, ‘arrogant’, ‘blind’, ‘in spiritual darkness’, a ‘Pharisee’ who ‘will one day open their mouth and pour out all these pent-up opinions’! ('Gems' from the text referred to above).

So wise of WL to understand the English language better than English speakers, and to redefine our words for us, oh and also to guide us away from scriptures on love. How deceived we would otherwise be!!!

Interestingly also, WL contradicts all this completely, in his writings on 'emotions'. What he says there instructs his followers to keep feelings and reactions very much to oneself. to be 'mild', 'temperate', 'restricted' and 'restrained', 'polite' and 'self-controlled', 'tranquil'..... magnanimous, perhaps? ["Lessons on Prayer" chapter 7 section 3, easy find by google 'Witness Lee on emotion'].

Therefore, perhaps we can conclude that to treat LC’ers we know with a magnanimous attitude, will be one of the most effective ways to disintegrate their system of thinking. Showing them by example the way of love as outlined in the Corinthians verses above, and being non-reactive to their efforts to control seems to be one thing WL could not conquer in a person. Just a thought that comes to me as I write this.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Great points, Curious. I just love how a little sarcasm can be used to expose some of the worst nonsense surrounding WL's own opinions.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thankyou for that. Interesting you validate my sarcasm, I am embracing it, I see it has it's place.

I can't help but wonder if the 10 commandments were rewritten to reflect WL's theology, what would that read like?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

1. Follow Witness Lee to be accepted by God
2. Read no other ministry besides Lee's
3. Do not notice contradictions in Lee's ministry
4. Remember to attend every feast given by Lee or his protegees
5. Honor Lee as your spiritual father
6. Thou shalt spread the threat of death to any who speak up
7. Thou shalt not have a conversation with the opposite gender
8. Thou shalt be robbed of healthy human enjoyments at every turn
9. Thou shalt slander anyone who rightly identifies false apostles and wolves
10. Thou shalt spit on all other Christians outside my little publication kingdom

I guess that's not really his theology, more the LC sociology.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Sarcasm does have a place. Both Jehovah in the Old and Jesus in the Gospels have used it effectively.

It was consideration of the 10 Commandments, specifically God's righteous standards, that helped clear my own brain fog concerning the many claims of the Recovery. How could the Lord endorse, or even bless, Recovery leadership after reading John Ingalls' truthful account of events? Lee and sons had egregiously violated every command of God.

As Trapped has enumerated, the commands of God must be rewritten for those in "the know," referring to the Blendeds, whose collective conscience has been seared by compromise.

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E81 - Megalomaniacs - The "Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee

More exposure of the corrupted mentality of "the Lords' Recovery."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYC8IQGgzMw

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Good video. It really can't be emphasized enough that if the LC ever did or still does have anything beneficial to offer, it has nothing to do with the claims that they make for themselves.

If they would just open their eyes, they might realize that outside interest in their group remains very low, they are struggling to retain the members that they do have, and nobody besides them has really heard of or even reads WL's books. If they feel they have something so great and valuable, they might want to just consider why nobody else seems to care.

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E82 - Faith, Not Fear - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Nee

Victory means trusting God and not giving in to fear and worry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REawlbbigRc

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Several episodes back there was a "DCP Part 1" type thing in the title of the video. Are you planning on doing a DCP Part 2?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I decided not to. Maybe in the future.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Interestingly also, WL contradicts all this completely, in his writings on 'emotions'. What he says there instructs his followers to keep feelings and reactions very much to oneself. to be 'mild', 'temperate', 'restricted' and 'restrained', 'polite' and 'self-controlled', 'tranquil'..... magnanimous, perhaps? ["Lessons on Prayer" chapter 7 section 3, easy find by google 'Witness Lee on emotion'].

-(Quote from my own post no.206 on this thread)

As I have time today, I am going to correct my own comment here. Having thought about this comment of mine here a little more, I find I don't agree with it. WL is not describing being motivated by love or a magnanimous attitude here. He is describing what this motivation as a behavior looks like but not touching on the motivation that should be behind it. That difference makes a particular behavior at risk of expressing an opposite source. His description can be motivated by fear, by a manipulative agenda, by social conditioning, but have no love for others involved. The definition of magnanimous touches on the reason for such an attitude...kindness, humility, are referenced, as does the 1 Corinthians 13 description of love.

The directional words in this list, taken directly from his own writings on this topic, can be described as teaching a person to be restricted, restrained, suppressed, even oppressed. All very unhealthy from a mental health perspective. A copy-cat outwardly, of mature Christian conduct but without any reference to how to arrive at this place where this conduct is a natural, not imposed, expression of the freedom to love and express goodness to others. This is where his writings are superficial, and betray the superficiality of his own understanding and function.

Thankyou Trapped for offering an alternative 10 commandments. Amongst the 10 commandments, the beatitudes, and the Lord's prayer, there is not even a sideways reference to what WL puts center square in his 'perfecting training'. (To note, as well, any other preaching that places other outward behavior or focus in substitution of these three sets of fundamental directives from heaven to us).

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E83 - Highlights of Interview with Cult Expert Steve Hassan - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

Jordan Harbinger interviews cult expert Steve Hassan about controlling group practices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn1l8Dvp3nA

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When Steve was talking about sleep deprivation affecting critical thinking skills, I thought of the FTTA.

Now, I know the FTTA sleep deprivation is nowhere near on par with truly sinister deprivation tactics....no one is being forced to stay up for 50 hours or only operate on a couple hours sleep night after night.

But the schedule is bedtime at 10:30pm and wake up at 6:00am, which is 7.5 hours of sleep if you fall asleep immediately and sleep all night. If you don't fall asleep immediately, which I believe many trainees do not because their day is so packed they need the wind-down time, you are verging into 6-7 hours of sleep. Many people in general do need 8-9 hours, and trainees are probably no different.

Indeed, it's well known that many trainees graduate the training with some kind of anxiety and/or depression or other mental health issue, and some graduate sick and worn down. I wonder if the slight edge of sleep deprivation is to make them more amenable to taking in the errors in what they are hearing.

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Quote from Steve Hassan in the interview:

"Every mind control cult does not want you saying anything negative against the leader, the doctrine, or the policy. So that's part of the information control, right? In healthy organizations you want to hear criticisms, you want to hear feedback. If the leader said something wrong, bad decision or something, you want to call the leader out and say, 'Hey we trusted you, you did this wrong.' And you want a leader that goes, 'You're right, I screwed up, I apologize. And you want that kind of responsive dynamic organization."

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Me too! The first thought I had was FTTA. I never attended, but I heard stories of insufficient sleep. I'm in the opinion insufficient sleep can lead to physical health/mental health issues.
Brothers I had lived in a brother's house with, prior to FTTA they were real characters. Hilarious, compassionate, and simply full of life. As FTTA graduates I barely recognized them as people. Their personality was replaced by the ministry.

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Minoru spoke critically of getting too much sleep in a conference once. Actually he was very critical of an 8 hour sleep. He felt that was just worldly, and unnecessary. He was sure 6 to 7 hours was more than adequate, anything more was just indulging the flesh, and akin to laziness. I went home feeling kind of ashamed of myself, but the more I thought about it, the more I disagreed and resented that level of involvement in the lives of church members....a degree of involvement I believed was inappropriate. And I was right. It is completely inappropriate for a group to say how much sleep an individual needs or does not need. Just crazy. No boundaries. No sense of right and wrong with these people.

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Is it any wonder that the common refrain from the FTTA graduates after their two-year immersion in the ministry and everything Lord's recovery is, literally, "I don't know how to BE"?????

And they try to pass that off as a healthy place? The best place?

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E84 - Killing the Nattering Nabobs of Negativity - aka the Prophets

Showing how the "Lord's Recovery" ignores God's offce of prophets and even, like all corrupt religious leaders, kills the prophets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIPIKwCF6E0

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

thank you, I have watched episode 83 around 7 or 8 times. Should be useful for all christian on this planet imo! As I was considering all of this, it just dawned on me; 1 Cor 12:21 says; "The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” LR seems to claim they are the eye. "Vision of the age" "High Peaks of divine revelation." The hand, to me, seems to be those today that labor preaching the gospel. at the very best, this is true, and even if it was, the eye cant say "I dont need you to the hand." This seems to me to be exactly what is happening. And I am still considering this, even if LR is philadelfia or laodecia (not up to me to judge), the Lord is still speaking to to the rest of the churches, calling them to overcome. So it is fairly illogical to me to have a view that the speaking is only among LR, yet many there still hold this view. I dont understand this at all. Thank you so much for all these videos to me, it has helped me more than I can describe Cal!

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I makes me happy that some people are being helped by the videos. Thanks!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

The LR says "we are the genuine [local] expression of God" yet they still teach that all the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 were genuine local churches of God, represented by real golden lampstands, which lampstands typify various groups (Protestant, Bretheren, RCC etc). But they say those groups are not genuine local churches. So they are genuine lampstands, and then they are not. This is fairly illogical, as well.

I mean, let your yes be yes, and your no be no. Instead you get this illogical, "It is (but it isn't)". You'll note that they sing the classic Protestant hymns, calling them "our rich heritage", then blast all Protestants for being Babyolon. And so forth. And no members notice the hypocrisy?

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What they do is identify what they consider the best parts of Christian and Church history and say that's OUR legacy and even that's US. And they identify the bad parts and say that's "CHRISTIANITY'S" legacy and that's THEM.

The "Recovery" is all the good stuff, which they claim as theirs. All the bad stuff is not theirs. It doesn't matter what is is--if they like it they claim it as part of their legacy. If not, it's someone else's. And it doesn't matter how historically mixed-up and in various combinations these good and bad things have occurred. If it was good it's the "Recovery," and if it was bad it's "Christianity."

They never own failure. Why? Because "the Recovery" is by definition only the good stuff. If it's bad it's categorically not "the Recovery," therefore it's not them.

It's an astounding and monstrous self-deception. But it's equally astounding how effective it can be. People seem to want so much to believe that they are the good guys, and someone else are the bad guys.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Well said!!!

I can't even count the number of times I heard WL compare the best of the Recovery -- like a refreshing testimony from a young one -- to the worst of Christianity. And we all wildly cheered. Hurray for us!

But why not compare WL's own boys to some fine, upstanding youth pastors? That's an honest comparison.

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I think it's a fair question to ask, if the recovery is the best why are so many children raised in the Local Churches end up in fellowship with non-LC Christian congregations?

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E85 - Am I Being Judgmental? - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

Addressing a judgmental listener's claims that I should not be judgmental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1Grm7SxI

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You may be judgmental, but I'm so much more humble than you! :hysterical:

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Good stuff!

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E86 - What "The Recovery" Really Is - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

Discussing how the "Lord's Recovery" claims only the good things for itself, and blames all the bad things on others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ht7KxD1OSc

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E87 - A Look at Quarantining - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee

Discussing the "Lord's Recovery's" extreme application of shunning, which they call quarantining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lag6Bl-BJog

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Ahhh, I see, I finally get it. When the LC quarantines a person, they are actually quarantining, or shunning, THEMSELVES from that person. Not the obvious way around.

THEY have backed gross sexual sin, thereby extending it's guilt over themselves, THEY have been divisive in the church, and THEY have taught heresy. So they qualify on all the scriptural scenarios for being shunned mentioned in episode 87. By quarantining an individual, they are acknowledging that person's concern for truth and rightness means they can no longer associate themselves with the LC. If you are quarantined, consider it the confession of the LC that righteousness needs to be seperated from corruption. i.e. YOUR righteousness can no longer be in submission to THEIR corruption! They are at least getting something right! Quarantining themselves is exactly the scriptural correct thing to do!!

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Very good observation, Curious!

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They are merely protecting their remaining members from getting poisoned ... I mean "sick."

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Its like a computer game. You go in, achieve the level... gather the items or achieve the goals, in this case, gain the wisdom, see through the cracks and the deceptions, then, the system itself kicks you out once it realises you've passed the level. Even if you've put down roots there and would like to stay. No. You've got the next level of learning that God has predestined for your life and you have to move on. The LC itself identifies this, (in their own, twisted way), just like a computer game and you can't go backwards or atrophy.

Also, like Joseph got moved on 3 times in his life: from a son to a slave, from a slave to a prisoner, from a prisoner to a President (or ancient-world equivalent). Each time without warning, each time a total seperation from the life he had, each time with a new set of lessons to learn in preperation for the end goal. And also, each time brutal and abrupt without warning, and the first two times, through malignant intentions of the one's causing it. He got spat out of one normality and onto the next.

We just need to ask God for the strength to survive it all and the wisdom to keep gaining from it what He has set before us. And the ability to remain in God anf His love, and keep free from bitterness, through the hardships.

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Hello Everybody!

Just want to let you know that I changed the name of the "My OpinionsFree" youtube channel to "Examining the Lord's Recovery."
Also, I am in the process of trimming off the Calvin intro and outro on the videos. I know, I will miss Calvin, too. But I want to use the name "My Opinions Free" for a more general subject channel. Like Calvin I think my opinions are what the world needs. By the way, the follow up to the panel below was Calvin saying to Hobbes. "I don't understand why no one is buying. Everyone needs what I'm selling.

https://i.imgur.com/aUgB4JS.png

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I am buying! only its free so I don't pay money!!

One thing I've thought about for a long time but not said....when you list famous actors who grew up in cults, on one of your episodes, they happen to be all women. One significant man actor is Joaquim Phoenix. He and his brother River both grew up in the one with the 'flirty fishing', which practised paedophilia. His brother River, died young and he has survived, and drawn on his experience in the cult, no doubt, to make an excellent depraved, incestuously motivated Emporer in the movie 'the Gladiator.'...a movie that also accurately portrays the pre-Christian world of Rome. And the pall of despair and darkness that pervaded life there.

I just think it might be an encouragement to male readers to have an example of a male in that mix too. Otherwise, keep going. I will subscribe to both of your channels!

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Yes, the reason I picked all women was so I could pull the gag of saying "What do all these women have in common.... No, it's not that they were all harassed by Philip Lee... Shame on you for thinking that."

It's hard for me to pass up a gag like that, so please forgive me.

Yes, many men have been raised in cults as well. It's a common experience. Nothing is really that unique about the LR.

Joaquin Phoenix probably drew on his cult experience to play the Joker as well, which I haven't seen, but now that I think about it I probably should.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Okay, launching my new, more general video channel. It will touch on some current events from my Christian perspective. The voice on the video is closer to my actual voice.

I won't advertise these here necessarily going forward, because they are not directly related to the LR. But you can join the Facebook "Former Members of the Local Church" group to see them. It is another group of former members in discussion.

E01 - Beginnings

Introduction to my video series and to my beliefs and worldview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDI0DXD4CnY

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Second installment of my new video series on my Christian worldview, This one covering what I call the three relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McyGZihlets

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

That will be last video of my new series that I announce here on LCD, since they are not specifically germane to the LR. Going forward please check for additional ones on the channel itself.

I will continue to announce my "Examining the LR" videos here, however. But I probably will not make another one of those until something new comes out from the movement that prompts a fresh response.

Thanks for your support.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

If it is the same one I was part of in 2018, there should be a disclaimer. "If you are a conservative, you do so at your own peril." This board is far more accepting in accepting diverse views and opinions.

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Agreed. Also, you might want to keep quiet about supporting traditional God-ordained marriage, and His creation of males and females.

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E88 - A Final Word, For Now

Wrapping up this video series... for now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFf9RCo-G5Q

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Cal, you have done well.

You have used your talents to help others, those who are hurting.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks, Ohio. Same to you.

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My parents forced me into the local church in Anaheim. I fought the whole thing from day one. I hated it I did not subscribe I didn't follow anything. Every day I waited for it to fall. I don't know maybe I sensed already it was something that was not on the up and up and in fact evil. The people that came out of there were decent folks but I have no contact with any nor do I want any. There are some that are still in it and I'm glad they're on their own. I follow no man nor am I afraid.

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Three new episodes on Examining the Lord's Recovery. Happy New Year!

E89 - shepherdingwords.com - Review of October 2020 articles, Part 1

Part 1 of review of October 2020 Lord's Recovery articles on shepherdingwords.com.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYjfMKFd9C0


E90 - shepherdingwords.com - Review of October 2020 articles, Part 2

Part 2 of review of October 2020 Lord's Recovery articles on shepherdingwords.com.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8KzNtybAc


E91 - Stewards... or Snobs. You Can't Be Both.

Discussing the "Lord's Recovery's" sectarian policy of separating themselves from all other Christian churches and works, which is in essence spiritual snobbery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVZKtaHZWf0

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E92 - The Sect of Oneness

Discussing how the "Lord's Recovery" publicly and in writing admits to being a sect, which they try to justify by being sectarian about "oneness."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuhY6_Iu0Io

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E93 - shepherdingwords.com - Yet More Recovery Gaslighting

Examining the April 2021 posts on shepherdingwords.com, where the LR gaslights about history and "the tree of life."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ijiWp8ddw

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

There is lots of history with his other son, Timothy Lee, also. I wish the people/victims involved would go public with that.

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I felt to quickly follow up the last message with more clarification about how the LR distorts and abuses "life and peace."


E94 - How the "Lord's Recovery" Abuses the Truth of Life and Peace

Examining how the LR says having any misgivings or doubts about their movement causes a loss of "life and peace," and how to handle this deception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkinYRCh6us

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E95- God Doesn't Want Everyone to be the Same

Examining how God made a wide variety of people, as reflected in the Myers-Briggs personality types, and how the "Lord's Recovery's" way of trying to make everyone the same is contrary to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWCrNhjIqQ0

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I just talked about you my brother (in another thread), good to see you post again. We were discussing witness lee goonery by LR members in another thread. I will check out that video later, for the mean time, have a blessed day.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks, bro. I'll check it out.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I listened to the video earlier today. Even before getting to the personality types, that is what I was thinking. Certain ones have the gift of gab while others are gifted listeners. Trying to make everyone the same puts undue pressure on a person. Extroverts who like to speak go stircrazy having to sitdown and listen while expecting an introvert to speak, what kind of stress is being inflicted on them? I don't think neither is intended.
Rather to make everyone one talent members so that everyone is the same. This is due to thought of turmoils. If everyone is the same there is not going to be some 5 talented member who has the gift of ministry. Yet that is exactly how it is.

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
I Corinthians 12:4-11

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E96 - Some Updates and an Open Request for Topics to Discuss

Providing some stats and trends on this YouTube channel, and a request for ideas from listeners for topics to cover and discuss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbQm0QGkD10

Hey guys, Let me know if you have a topic you would like me to discuss. Thanks!

Feel free to PM me if you want, comment here or comment on YouTube.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E97 - Discussing the Ideas of Accountability and Covering

Looking into the teachings of accountability, covering and needing a shepherd, and seeing how they go wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ECJZZYi48Q

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I may have missed it, because I'm not a big video watcher. But I imagine some are the opposite of me - they don't like to read but would prefer a YouTube video going whilst they fix supper.

So if you haven't done so, and are interested, where does Paul teach intensification? And if he doesn't teach it, how is he (acc to WL) telling Timothy to make sure it's taught in Ephesus? Where is any suggestion there, or in any of Paul's writings, of intensification? Yet in the WL oeuvre that's a full third of the theme: "Incarnation, inclusion, intensification" we used to sing. How did Paul ask Timothy to teach intensification, if it's not in evidence in Paul's writing? And if Paul didn't push it as 'oikonomea theou' then why should anyone else do the same? It looks made up, is what.

Not sure if that's grist for a video but 'God's economy' as taught by WL & Crew has got an absolutely astonishing grip on folks' minds, especially considering there's nothing there, biblically. You can show them the most scripturally-based teaching but they shrug and say, "Not God's economy". Yet much of what WL taught as "God's economy" was unrelated to Paul in any way.

Second request: How much did WN depend on Jessie Penn-Lewis for the contents of his Spiritual Man, his supposedly too-perfect book (acc to his quote in LSM website on his writings)? How much did he read her critically vs insert her words paragraph-upon-paragraph onto clean white pages under his own name? He "copied freely" from J P-L, he said when pressed - and yet how freely? Second, and related, how much of J P-L can be sourced back to the Bible versus from an overactive imagination? And on this is what the Little Flock and Lords Recovery were built? J P-L was raised in a FreeMason house acc to her biographers, and admiring ones at that. She was apparently active there through her youth. How much of her Free-Masonry and/or Quakerism permeated her world-view, and how much of her view went straight shot through Nee to us? Perhaps an astonishing amount.

The "inner-life" WN was ideationally sourced to mainly 3: Fenelon, Penn-Lewis and Guyon per the LSM bio. Yet who among his followers has critically examined them? I certainly can't fault F, P-L and G as humans or even as Christians but how much of their ideas did I passively absorb in Nee's books? And how much of their own ideas were sourced not from the Bible but from other inspirations? In the case of J P-L it's perhaps not inconsiderable.

Yet has anyone looked at this?

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E98 - Questions from Listeners, Bible Versions

A general response to questions, and some comments about Bible versions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=johVdUI25OY

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E99 - The "Lord's Recovery" Discusses Suicide

Commenting on a "Lord's Recovery" shepherdingwords.com article that discusses suicide, and how it comes up short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50XtLRGQaQ

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I think you are right on the mark in your probe into the mindset of those responsible for the handling of the fateful case of Greg and Jo Casteel since June 9, 2019.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

The recovery can speak against suicide until the cows come home, but won't own up to driving gays that grow up in the LC to suicide.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Great episode Cal,
I believe you have issued a timely warning to the 'shepherds' of the LRM. Judgement is coming. The anger you found yourself expressing reflects the mounting anger of God, as well as so many people, internationally. They need to hear this warning you gave. WE are not done. Many of us are working together to diminish the influence of this group. The opposition will only increase, just like Moses and Pharaoh.... each plea to let God's people go gets met with greater and more costly consequences for Egypt. Each plea is really another expression of God's grace, not an indication of the limits of His power! (misunderstood by pharaoh).

I think you laid down the gauntlet with this episode. 'Stop playing games with words to let yourselves off the hook as to your own culpability, you wolves! You've gone too far. Be afraid, Judgement will come, you've expended your chances'.
I think this is God's warning to them. They are committing their own suicide by not listening. Sadly.
.

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This is sad. Are you saying some of our gay brothers and sisters in the LC have killed themselves?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I'm in touch with gay ex church kids, and they relate the trauma they went thru while in the LC, with strong tendency to suicide, due to LC rejection, and LC family rejection. Because of that they loose the friendships they made while growing up in the LC, leaving them destitute.

It's sad to grow up gay in the LC. It's not a choice. And rejection drives them to suicide.

Is the local church bemoaning that? Of course not. There's 6 verses out of 35,000 against it, and the LC is holding to those 6 verses.

So their concern about suicide rings hollow to me. To me they've gone Bible crazy.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

As a lesbian sister and church kid, I can honestly say that yes, the LC drove me to attempt suicide in 2012-2013. I’m glad I did not go through with it. The LC didnt care. Now I’m happily married to the love of my life and despite what LC has ingrained in me that I would be doomed for the rest of my life, the opposite has happened. God has blessed me in every way possible. I can say the same for some church kids I have talked to. Tbh, my favorite story in the bible is that of Joseph. He was rejected by his bretheren and yet, God led him to a place he never knew he would be at. I really relate to his story and life.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

On LC’s point of view, they would blame the suicide on the Devil for Greg, but this is what makes me angry. That it was punishment from God that they “left”. It shows how nefarious the LC can be when if comes to these issues. When I was going through suicide, I was actually ‘punished” for it. The elders took me out of the sis house, reprimanded my parents (still dont have an inkling why they are still in it, but I get it, their idea to this day is church first, family second), and the “serving ones” told everyone I was poison.How did I know? one of the brothers in the brother shouse told me they had a fellowhsip meeting about me, specifically about me! Jo and greg did not deserve that. It honestly breaks my heart that the good people are mistreated all the time in LC. No, LC is to blame for this. I just hope God can provide justice in the end.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I have honestly have a memory of one sister in my high school years who wouldnt eat and had an eating disorder for a while due to this. She is bisexual and her parents were staunch LC. . Something needs to change- more empathy is needed. Despite beliefs, everyone is a human being. Thats why God created us right? It doesnt matter what your views are on homosexuality and all the alternative sexualities, but everyone deserves love and respect from other fellow human beings. Thats what Jesus taught. I’m going to follow that. The question is, should we as Christians do it as well? after all, everyone “sins” and even if homosexuality is a so called sin, Jesus hung out with the sinners. He loved them. He did not judge them. LC should do the same.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks for speaking out Serenity.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thank you for all your comments. Anytime anyone drives another to suicidal thoughts they are acting in concert with the Devil. No matter the person or situation.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E100 - Looking Back, Looking Forward and Heading Up Highway 101

The view from my 100th episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp2CUW9z88A

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E101 - Discussing "Recovery" Lawsuits and Litigiousness

Looking at "the Lord's Recovery's" defense of their lawsuits and denial of being litigious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNrXPdszr-I

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E102 - A Short Personal History of "Recovery" Early Days and Decline

My experience of the early days of the LR and how and why it declined.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsyM1zCDmg

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E103 - CULTISM: The Devil's Masterpiece

Examining how cultism is used in many ways, will be used to destroy the world, and how our experience with it has equipped us to recognize it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCShRaDVejs

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I came across this channel the other day. A brother, who was a member of LR, talks about Witness Lee.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...j1LkAvz05f-LuU

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Yes, indeed, Cal's YouTube channel covering numerous LC topics has been quite helpful to all former members.

I have always said that only former members truly understand the spiritual dynamics that we face, and Cal has great wisdom and insight to express these LC errors in plain words.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks brother Ohio!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E104 - Desperation Looms in "The Lord's Recovery"

Discussing the latest desperate attempt by "Lord's Recovery" leaders to control the thinking and behavior of their members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NFiJTzYfEE

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E105 - The Return of the Controllers

Discussing how ultimately "the Lord's Recovery" is a mechanism of control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R7A5_cAmUQ

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I didn't listen, but yes, I see control as a big thing in the LC. It is actually quite the irony, because this is a group that is supposed to be all about the freedom of the spirit, isn't it? But they have built up all these systems, resulting in a culture that they, at best, think will help guide the saints into the fullness of the Spirit . . . or at the worst, will just control them so they think the LC is the only place where the Lord's blessing is so they will stay put.

Like many of us, once someone gets out, the Lord is able to help us see more clearly how pernicious and exclusive the spirit of the LC really is. It is really a function of man's flesh, to want to control everything, and we see this all over in whatever man endeavors to do, but it ought not be that way in His ekklesia!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E106 - What "the Lord's Recovery" Hates the Most

Discussing how "the Lord's Recovery" is most afraid of people who speak out, aka the prophets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nhbfz80KdU

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Cal, just wanted to say that there are lots messages being sent in one-on-one communication among former members when your videos come out. Things like "Cal just put out a new video!", "We watched Cal's new episode last night; you will find such-and-such part very helpful!" and "He really nailed it so clearly about the control!" etc, etc.

Just wanted to pass that along so you know many people continue to be so helped by your channel, even if the comments and gratitude occur behind the scenes rather than where you actually see them on this forum or on the channel itself.

Grateful for your continued examination of the Lord's Recovery!

Trapped

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thank you, T! That means a lot. I appreciate your and everyone else's support and prayers!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E107 - The Fallacy of "the Feeling of the Body"

Examining how "the Lord's Recovery's" teaching of "the feeling of the Body" is actually contrary to what the Bible teaches about the Body of Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtt2XbXhYS0

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E108 - Don't Rule Out Stupidity

Examining the mind control of "the Lord's Recovery" in the light of Christian theologian and martyr Diedrich Bonhoeffer's theory of stupidity. With video "Bonhoeffer's Theory of Stupidity" by Sprouts Schools

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yib6YxJgN0Q

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E109 - Why "The Lord's Recovery" is Doomed

Discussing how "the Lord's Recovery" exists in a purgatory of their own making.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4-KUlDr0fI

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E110 - The Intrinsic and Ironic Problem in the Lord's Recovery Today

Discussing that the Lord's Recovery's recurring problems are intrinsic to the flawed nature of the movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB3buTbxgB0

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E111 - The Intrinsic Problem, the Paradox of Oneness

Discussing how and why insisting on oneness is actually contrary to oneness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC4g_RXBHSk

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E112 - Was Witness Lee Mentally Ill?

Discussing several points, including whether Witness Lee was mentally deranged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPPdutV9xzk

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E113 - MOTA!

All my MOTA! cartoons in one place. Thanks again for listening!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GJEgSk9IlI

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

u have a private message in your inbox

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E114 - Recommending the YouTube channel "The Lord's Recovery Unchained." Also, I show how to be brainwashed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS0oXAKXLs8

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

This new version of Episode 33 was created using natural-voice AI-generated text-to-speech software. It is much more listenable than the original, and I hope this makes it more accessible to those seeking to learn more about the Lord's Recovery movement.

E115 - A Spoken History of the Lord's Recovery (1960-1997) - Natural-sounding Voice Version

A spoken version of Steve Isitt's "A History of the Lord's Recovery in the US." This history reveals little known surreptitious events in the movement from 1960 to 1997. Witness Lee is the central character in this sordid history of an abusive Christian sect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJqxpt_K7DM

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Sounds more life like!

Hi CAL!

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hi, brother. Yes, I agree.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I found your cartoons amusing and insightful.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thanks for posting this episode. It reminded me of how much the leadership kept lowly members like myself in the dark. I pulled up the transcript for close reading http://localchurch.web.fc2.com/PDF/A...coveryinUS.pdf

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I too went thru the material. I knew of some, but most not. And much happened after I left.

All of the material confirmed what I knew in my spirit when I walked. I can't believe how much I'm still mushing over all this.. Wouldn't it be best just to walk completely away from the mess. Paul Ma did not do this. I knew him personally. He was a sweet brother, but was covering up much that he knew was going on behind the scenes.

Harold

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Here is a link to the text I used. I edited Steve's original some for clarity and also wrote the part about Witness Lee's Pasadena rant.

http://bit.ly/lordsrecoveryhistory

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I think we "mush" about it because we want to know what it was really about. If I hadn't done so I wouldn't have learned so much and been able to make those videos. And I wouldn't have met great folks like you, zeek and the rest. :verycool:

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

I actually feel the same way.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E116 - The LR's Errors Regarding Church Administration and Leadership

Comments on "The Lord's Recovery's" December, 2022 entries on shepherdingwords.com.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsw0om8Op2Y

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E117 - They Still Don't Get It

Commenting on "the Lord's Recovery's" mistaken views on ministry, apostleship and their attitude toward 99% of the Body of Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N__1xgloIYg

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

E118 - Every Church Has This Problem

Eventually the choice is: The mission or the organization?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZOSZgNy7aU

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Wow, I'm just listening to your videos now. It's really just wow. I'm listening from Episode 1 now. I had no idea it was this bad. And I thought it was already really bad. You see, I did not know anyone who left this place because they've finally understood the truth. I felt so trapped and it was as if just me who is "gasping for air". You are already addressing many of the things that are disturbing. I am so sure there are many people out there who are like me. They have no idea about any of this and they do not know of anyone who has stepped out of this place. Yet, I believe the Holy Spirit is nudging them to see the truth. I had many moments like that too but I did not realize it at the time. May God be merciful.

Covering Up/Not Covering
 

The ShepherdingWords article would have been more appropriate to suggest the sons of Eli should have received covering. After all how many decades has certain LSM co-workers been running interference by covering Timothy Lee and Phillip Lee?

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Thank you. Just realize God does not require anyone to stay with any particular organization as a matter of rule. No one has the authority to tell you otherwise. You are free to follow your conscience. If you get that down, the rest is between you and the Lord. If you understand that much, you are 99% there.

Re: Covering Up/Not Covering
 

Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.

Re: YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
 

Hey Cal, in case you didn't know it - YouTube offers a feature that can be handy for subscribers and it's called "End Screens". I believe you should consider going back & adding this feature to all of your videos even though it would entail considerable work. How it functions is during the final seconds of your video's playback a prompt will display on the player screen which is clickable and can immediately take your viewer to that link. The way I have used this can be seen with my mirrored upload of your Episode 1 at the BlendedBrothers YT channel (since torpedoed by LSM). Here is a photo showing how that appeared for viewers as the video was wrapping up (the last 45 seconds):

https://blendedbody.com/ExaminingTLR...thersPromo.png

Hope this tip helps your work get even more exposure. Keep cranking out the truth. So many former LC member's lives depend upon channels like yours. It has sure helped me a lot!

P.S.

Examining the Lord's Recovery Episode #63
 

Among all episodes at the youtube channel "Examining the Lord's Recovery",
it is episode #63 I would recommend all others. Though many episodes broach many topics, it is episode #63 I consider all inclusive for any one who has any concerns regarding the Local Church Movement.

Examining the Lord's Recovery Episode #55
 

As I said in the comment section of the video, "Well spoken. Comparison to the Penn State scandal is valid. Regarding Max and John, the co-workers had opportunity to reconcile and let the opportunity slip away."
In one of the last opportunities the brothers had to reconcile, instead of receiving John they had John escorted off the premises.
Additionally I would say the authors at Shepherdingwords.com cannot say anything in completion regarding Max and John without mentioning Phillip.
It is a partial truth for Shepherdingwords.com to say John left. To omit the rest of the story is to make the partial pass as the whole. Much like Ananias and Sapphira did in Acts chapter 5, Shepherdingwords.com has done the same.
Regarding Max, though I was living in Anaheim at the time I have no recollection of him as I did Francis Ball, Al Knoch, and John Ingalls. I was but a 4th grader at the time Max left.
I will say per testimony of a family friend who went with my parents to Francis Ball's memorial service, Max was there. Blended co-workers had opportunity to speak with Max, but instead treated him as if there was some magnetic polarity field preventing them from approaching Max. I can see that happening. I witnessed something similar in Bellevue, WA at my uncle's memorial service in 2014. Steve Isitt was there. None of the metro Seattle (Bellevue/Seattle/Renton) elders who were present could approach Steve either. There was a magnetic field preventing the brothers from approaching Steve. I say that in sarcasm, but it demonstrates the brothers unwillingness to be cordial at best.

Re: Examining the Lord's Recovery Episode #55
 

Terry I like your use of the magnetc force field analogy. Being cordial is not in the WL lexicon because it's a trait of functioning humanity. I see this phenomenon to be like a subroutine tucked away inside an innocuous computer code. Whenever the LC leaders (Lee-Bots) spot someone whom they have been preconditioned to hate by Lee's programming they are compelled to either run the other direction or, if that's not possible due to the circumstances, pretend that this person they learned to hate does not exist.

And if miraculously a tiny spark of human nature has escaped molestation inside one of those Lee-Bots leading them to have second thoughts, another subroutine will spring into action and slaughter it!

The inner subroutine reminds the Lee-Bot: "If I am seen interacting with someone that Lee's system has trained us to hate - there will be personal hell to pay!"

I would like to believe that this second subroutine was at work in Sherman Robertson and Joel Kennon when they threw Steve Isitt out of the meeting hall for writing this Amazon best seller...
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/...40_FMwebp_.jpg

What is the opposite of a tractor beam?
Fellowship Barrier!

P.S.