[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

By what standard did Ham "sin?" Uncovering the nakedness of his father? That wasn't established as a law until the time of Moses. So you are retroactively applying a standard as well. I'm not saying it doesn't apply. I'm just saying if you are going to retroactively apply that standard, then why not also the one for drunkedness, which is established in both the NT and OT? But you implied I was wrong for retroactively applying it. So which is it?

Igzy,

I look at this account as a descriptive event in Biblical history. I don't believe it is a prescription for teachings about "DA", drunkenness, curses, etc.

I didn't say Ham sinned. I said he disrespected his father. That seems obvious. Call it what you will, but to me it was disrespect by any standard you want to apply. I don't know but I think this could be the precursor to the law given to Moses, because of the promise "that your days be long on the earth". That's just what I think.

Well...you could be wrong! I don't claim to be right. I'm trying to stick to the actual text and not say more than it says. This is just a conversation.

Where do we get the idea that the curse was applied by God on behalf of Noah's speaking? All we know is that Noah cursed him and it came true. That doesn't mean God "honored" Noah's curse. That just means Noah's words carried a lot of weight, and as grandfather and tribal leader that make sense.

Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts.

I don't see anywhere where the Bible says you can curse people that offend you and God will honor your curse because of your status, even if you are Noah.

Me neither.

What I'm not convinced it's about is how God backs up the curses of spiritual big shots. That's the kind of interpretation which leads to doctrines like "Deputy Authority."

I'm not convinced that this is what God did either. I pretty much take the verses at face value and reject any teachings of men which were spawned with them as their basis.

Nell