Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
And to this day we are convinced that Noah being drunk and naked in his own tent was a sin that proves deputy authority. But it doesn't say that. Yet even here you are continuing to say it is so. Why? Because Nee/Lee said it.
|
I haven't been back since I wrote my last post, so I'm just reading all this now.
OBW, where do you get that I am continuing to say that something proves deputy authority? Why would you gather such a thing? I neither believe, said, nor implied anything of the sort. And you think I'm saying "it" because Nee/Lee said "it?" Well, I never said "it."
All I said was that Noah had a certain status at the time, and that his words carried weight. Surely that was the case. He built the ark and was the leader of the human survivors of the earth. But that doesn't mean I believe in "deputy authority." You said we should read the passage without bias. When I try to do that, I see what I said I saw.
I can assure you I'm not confirming deputy authority. But I am saying that people who other people look up to should watch their words, because they carry weight in those that look up to them, especially in families. All my human experience says that speaking vicious personal negativity to children and young people often produces the very behavior you are trying stop. I have four step siblings. They were all verbally abused by their father, my stepfather. He called them stupid and dispirited them. I think he meant well, he just didn't understand that his approach was all wrong. All of them have dealt with self-esteem issues and issues with their father throughout their lives. I would say they all to some degree became what he accused them of being. His words were fulfilled because they believed him, because he was their father. He had some influence on me too, but not as much. I think my mother warned him about talking to me that way.
I doubt Noah wanted Canaan to be the father of a godless, rebellious tribe. But I believe his reckless words did nothing to prevent it and probably encouraged it. And I think most experts in human behavior analyzing this incident would agree with me.
And I'm not sure why you said we should leave Noah's cursing out of the discussion. Noah's cursing is the "teeth" of his ostensive deputy authority. The reason some people believe in this authority is because the curse seems to have come true. Canaan was indeed cursed, or so it seems. If Canaan had gone on to be a great godly patriarch in his own right, then the idea that this passage proves deputy authority could have never gotten wings. So the curse and what came after is an important part of the whole picture.
The fundamental question is: Did God approve of Noah's cursing and back him up? Some teachers have said that since it seems Canaan did become "cursed" that God did indeed back it up. That's what Lee believed, obviously. I don't.
So when Noah cursed Canaan, what was really going on? Was it the righteous judgment of a man defending the honor of God's deputy authority, with God applauding in the background? Or was it the rantings of a imperfect man who was simply unbearably embarrassed, with God sadly shaking his head in the background? Given all I know at this point and all I believe about what God is truly like, I have to believe it's the latter.