[zeek]

Originally Posted by testallthings

THE SILENCE OF SCRIPTURE

Originally Posted by awareness:

Did Jesus tell the tax collectors that he hung with to get out of gov'ment?

Proving something from what Jesus didn't say can lead to very dangerous conclusions. If we apply the same kind of reasoning awareness used to prove Nee wrong (and with Nee many, many servants of God, from the church fathers to Spurgeon, etc.) then we can show:

1. That Jesus was for soldiers, the army, for the sword, for war, for killing people, etc., because he didn't tell the centurion to leave the army (Mat. 8:5-13).

2. That Jesus was for thieves, for stealing, because He didn't tell Judah not to steal money from the bag he carried (John 12:6).

3. That Jesus didn't care about sinning, because when He healed the sick of palsy and forgave his sins He didn't tell him to sin no more (Mat. 9:2-7).

4. That Jesus was for worldly government (even for Caesar's kingdom, because the tax collectors worked for Rome) and for sinners! (because in the same passage where He didn't say to the tax collectors to leave their job, He didn't say, either, to the sinners to sin no more) (Mat. 9:9-13)

Other things could be added to the list, but I think everyone can see the absurdity of these conclusions.

Indeed.

JESUS THE FRIENDS OF SINNERS

It is very interesting how Jesus came in contact with tax collectors (or publicans).

Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him. Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (KJV)

Luk 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me. Luk 5:28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.Luk 5:29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them. Luk 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. Mar 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. Mar 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

It is the call of Matthew (or Levi). Jesus called Matthew to follow Him, and so he left his job. He didn't serve the Lord part time. Jesus was a friends of tax collectors and sinners, but He made sure that among His disciples there were no tax collectors.

THE CHURCH'S (BELIEVERS) ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE WORLD (SINNERS)

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Am I wrong if I understand that Paul was saying that we can have sinners friends in this world, but not sinners brothers in the church? If that is correct isn't this what the Lord Jesus did in the Gospels? He was the friend of sinners (tax collectors included) but in the church (His disciples) the story is different.

Paul's teaching is different then Jesus' teaching. Paul's seems the more practical of the two. But, time showed that it wasn't. That a church without sinners is empty has been proven over and over throughout it's history. Paul's teaching always leads to the sinners of the church in-crowd "putting away" the sinners of the out-crowd. If you associate with humans, you associate with sinners.

In point of fact, Jesus was overturning the purity customs and laws of his society. He ate with the cast-offs, the dregs, the untouchables. Everybody was welcome at the "Lord's table" and that was a radical rejection of the dominant culture which consisted of the Romans and the Jews who collaborated with them. We could call that "anti-political" but to be anti-political in that sense has profound political implications which is probably why they crucified Jesus.

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

It's unlikely that historical Jesus taught that. It's based on Deut. 19:15:

“A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.

It probably reflects a useful standard of evidence that "Matthew's" church used in the process of settling disputes.