Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
Don,
I disagree. Actually, the local churches were, by definition, divisive from the beginning. But that division was not as willful or organized in the early days and was therefore somewhat benign. But any time you come into a divided situation and claim to have the answer and that those who follow you are not divided, there is a problem.
There are not multiple sets of elder sin Toronto because of the so-called “Work.” There were multiple sets of elders in Toronto long before Witness Lee was born. And if those multiple assemblies with multiple elders can become more one with each other in Christian fellowship, it will not matter that they hold some few preferences differently and continue to meet as separate assemblies. Without even going to Toronto to see for myself, I bet there is a trend in that direction.
And you keep referring to the practical side of the church as “local.” Yes, I agree that it is local. It is very local. But leaving it “local” in such a vague way on this forum is the equivalent of saying “one city one church,” or even if you disregard political boundaries, only one assembly covering some patch of land and no one is going from within one patch to join with believers in another.
I am not saying you are proposing this. And I am not saying it would not be ideal. But unless you are somehow weighing in with Gubei, you seem to be suggesting something that I do not think you intend. Reading the remainder of the post could be read either way, so a clearer stand on what is “local” would be helpful.
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Dear Brother Mike,
We have a tough problem. Paul was very open in his first letter to Corinth. There was division there and he condemned it. In chapter 11 he declares, 1 Cor 11:18-20, For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you. NASB
We should seek to be those who are approved? Does this desire make someone divisive? Sometimes it seems you are contending that if you are concerned about division then you are by default divisive. I Corinthians is very clear. Those who declared “I am of Christ” were guilty of division just as those who declared “I am of Paul.” Taking the position “I am it”, “We four and no more are it.” Of course that should be condemned as divisive. How to have a positive testimony of the oneness of the Body of Christ and not be part of the “I am of Christ” sect is the dilemma.
Thus, please give some attention to how we should address the problem of division. Can we conclude that the Southern Baptist Denomination is a division? If not, other than the LSM/LC, are there any Christians who assemble in a divisive way. Paul said 1 Cor 11:17-18, But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. NASB
The Southern Baptist practice is congregationalism. That is, every church must be in administration independent. When I say local, practical etc I have the headship of Christ in mind. The LSM/LC has administrationally eliminated “the churches” from the scriptures and thus annulled the Headship of Christ. The Southern Baptists practice administration local which is the model in the New Testament. They also practice fellowship and mutual cooperation among the various congregations on many levels which they do without giving up their local administration. This is also in the New Testament. Thus, I would say they are two for three. While the LSM/LC is zero for three. There are many many other matters which should be our concern regarding the current spiritual condition of an assembly but that is for another thread.
I am not weighing in with my good friend Gubei. For one thing I still am not clear what he is saying. My fault not his.
This matter of oneness should be looked at from many sides. Is it acceptable to just sort of chant, “hey, hey everybody is okay. We are one in Christ. Hey , hey everybody is okay.” Why did the Lord pray, John 17:11, Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as We are. NASB
Can we just be cavalier about the whole matter of division and oneness? Why did Paul write, Eph 4:3, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. NASB
I believe Watchman Nee came up with the understanding of One Church, One City due to much prayer, Bible searching and anguish of heart. What about all the division? Where can we find the Oneness of the Body of Christ expressed? Now unfortunately, it has not worked out, as I believe, he expected.
Now Mike, the reason there are multiple sets of elders in Toronto now as well as 150 years ago is because of “the work.” WN coined the term “the work.” But the practice of gifted servants of the Lord forming their own particular groups in various cities goes way way back long before there was a Toronto.
I also, as you have guessed, would not be surprised if various groups are coming together more to serve together and honor the Lord as their common Savior. Whenever the Lord works in a fresh and genuine way, He brings us together. It just never seems to happen that way with LSM/LC groups. When they have a new move or new way, they have a storm. It seems that every few years, evil men like me desire to draw men after themselves in order to have their own ministry and following or they just have “taken another way,” or they have been “brought into Darkness,” or they are “infected with leprosy,” or they were “rebellious like those of Korah,” etc.
Hope, Don Rutledge
A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.
John 8:31-32, Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” NASB