[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I can imagine that if David for example had an important matter to pray about, he would pray it in the morning, at midday, and at evening, on that same day. He prayed 3 times a day.

Fine. But you didn't comment on "tomorrow." And neither did the scripture.

Besides, your imagination is not basis for principles.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You cannot rule it out. You cannot say that David did not pray for the same thing three times on the one day.

Now you are engaging in strawman arguments. I never said that David did not pray three times on one day, nor that he did not pray at all three times for any one thing. The former happened with regularity, and while we have no clear evidence of the latter, it is easily conceded as a reasonable possibility.

What is not provided for consideration in any passage concerning David is the indication that he prayed ONLY three times for any one thing. Maybe only three times on one day because that was his practice for praying in a single day. But nothing about not praying about it the next day. Or the next. You are substituting true statements about a practice that does not speak to the current dispute as if it answers that dispute when it actually provides no hint at all about an answer for it.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I find it hard to believe that Jesus was merely putting on a show for his disciples. He was a great actor to be able to fake tears of blood and sweat.

Hard to believe? On at least one occasion he openly declared that his prayer to the Father was for the purpose of showing the disciples a truth that was (for them) to be found in the words he prayed.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

They are opinions rooted in knowledge of Jewish customs and a degree of common sense that it is possible to pray too much for something.

But they are opinions concerning limits of praying based on customs of frequency of praying.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The idea of God you present is a God who makes us persevere and beg until He gives us a fish. Do you really think God is going to make you persevere and work for what He wants to give you? Even if it is a loaf or a fish?

Just as it was required that the heathen noble (Persian or Babylonian . . . I can't remember that detail at the moment) was required to wash in the Jordan 7 times. If 3 is the limit, then the other 4 were in vain. But without them, no healing. That casts doubt on your limit.

I have not represented a God that makes us beg. Rather, I have represented an attitude of people who are willing to pray until they have an answer. Yes or no. Not just until some arbitrary number or times has occurred.

How many times do you pray for your daily needs? Every time you pray (if you follow the example Jesus gave).

How many times do you ask for forgiveness of God and grant it to others? Every time you pray (if you follow the example Jesus gave).

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There's no rule about it, it's a principle, just pray whatever number of times you think you need or until God answers. But at some point, if God hasn't answered, we need to ask why.

You finally say something that I can agree with. In fact, this is exactly what I have been saying all along. You may argue that I never said that there could be place where you should stop. That is not true. The only thing I have been saying is that one instance that is never referred to in a manner to suggest a limit does not define that limit in terms of a hard, fast number. Rather, it is when you have the realization that your prayer has been answered. Even if that answer is "no."

You remind me of the retired military man back in the 70s going back to school for a business degree. He was taking Business Law. As we discussed one area of law, after the instructor had given an example, this guy would "what if" a slight change in the facts to see if the rule still applied. Then another. Then another. Eventually he had so changed the facts that not only was the answer different, but the area of law that applied had changed. But since the answer had changed, he smugly folded his arms and lightly smiled as his head nodded up and down and he was sure that he had found a hole in the law.

You are doing something similar. You rush in with a rule and argue it hard and fast. If the opponent does not back down, you start to wander all over the place trying to confuse the issue. Then you eventually strawman your opponent's position into something that you can argue against with a variation of his original argument and then pretend that you have won.

Actually, the only winning was the truth because you have now wandered into supporting exactly what I was arguing for from the beginning. Something actually supported by the Bible rather than mere conjecture that there is a limit of three prayers on any particular topic after which a 4th prayer becomes vain repetition. Yes, you essentially argued that at the beginning. You didn't just argue a broad principle of praying until you have an answer. Or until there is no reason to stop.

For example. I am looking for a change in employment. I have prayed about it on more than three occasions. But the environment is that jobs in my field are not a dime a dozen. They are not hanging on fruit-laden trees. But you argued so hard for a rule of three that I became a vain repeater months ago.

Do you really believe that is true? It is not as if my options are pray three times and then either keep your current job or another will eventually come. Because of the nature of things, there is simply an end coming. And unemployment is not a reasonable thing to accept as from the hand of God. That would be like asking for a fish and getting a rock or a snake.

Your reading of the Bible seems more like a Pharisee trying to find ways to snare the people into failing, or putting extreme burdens on them in terms of their practice. A millstone weight of burdens on how to pray to God. How to meet. What words to use. And on and on . . . ad nauseam.