[thisovercomer]

I am also grateful for my time in the LC for it was there I was truly rooted and grounded in the Word of God. It took me a long time to get the LC 'leaven' out of me but nonetheless I pretty much have. However as the saying goes, I did not throw out the baby with the bath water. I threw out the bath water only. I am who I am IN CHRIST because of being raised a Catholic and being in the LC. They were learning tools!

Amen! I too am sifting and endeavoring to throw out the bath water while preserving the baby. I have been in this situation now for what is approaching one year (technically) but in reality problems brewed before then. But I totally love the saint. How many times did I hear the saints correct themselves to say, "Yes the individual catholics are wonderful, it's this system that is flawed" Well that's where I am today with the LC's.

Ironically, what I have begun to see, the LSM/LC turned into a denomination if it wasn't one all along and I did not see it for it was 'unique'.

Obviously you were in the LC many years before me because I only came into the church just before Brother Lee passed. At the time it did bother me that every sentence ended or started with a reference to Brother Lee, but considering how many saints I fellowshipped with had know brother Lee even decades--it eventually did not seem so strange. But because I did not know Brother Lee, nor had I ever been present in person for his trainings this was never my way. I gave up catholicism because I could see that my faith could not be placed in a man, and yet I knew of then, many catholic priests and especially nuns, that I really found a genuine love in them for mankind. So I had those experiences and no matter how many times I heard things to the contrary, I always have known in my heart that my fellowship needs to be open with all members of the body.

For me, I loved that we called each other saints from the get go !
Perhaps it did not take me long to see in the Word of God that Paul addressed the living church in all his journeys as SAINTS. He greeted the living saints in Corinth, Ephesus, Phillipi, etc.... they were not dead. They were not 'perfect' but they were alive and following Jesus, growing in Christ through the fellowship of the saints especially Paul's fellowship.


This is what happened to me in 1978/79. I did not have the words back then, but now I know the Anointing of the Holy Spirit had lifted because He was pushed out. He was replaced by the emphatic embrace of Witness Lee & Lee's teachings more than the Holy Spirit's enlightenment of the Word of God

Right now, I will tell you truthfully that because I never knew WLee and because I have read many many parts of the ministry in which he apologizes for his lack of wisdom in that he had to go again before the Lord...I am not sure now whether this was WLee who gave himself such position? Or was it maybe those who followed him without question that wanted him to be a superbrother? I am not prepared to answer that question nor do I even know whether the Lord will reveal the answer to me, nor do I know whether the answer is important to me because I answer to the Lord on judgement day and WLee answers to to the Lord on judgement day individually for where we are in the Lord and for how much we inevitably damage his people. So, sighing a relief, I can say I really don't know?

EXACtLY !!! Very well put TOC! I agree with the theory but not the practice..although the practice has not always been BAD. When I was in the LC, we studied & prayed the WORD of GOD for the first 6 months I was there. Then the 'life study' messages took presidence over the Word of God. And by 1977/78, 'brother Lee' took presidence over our Worship of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, imho. But other beloved saints suffered FAR MORE horrific hardships than I ever did under the LC leadership. That they are still committed to live a Godly life, is a testimony of Christ IN them, the Hope of Glory. Many who had bad experiences in the LC have stopped fellowshipping, not only with other believers but stopped following the Lord altogether.

I prefaced this first message by explaining I was a catholic first, I did so because coming from denominations, I recognized denominations. I believed the saints when they brought me to the word and showed me how denominations were not of Christ and that Christ needs to build His own church. But then when I saw the denomination aspect increasing but in a more hidden way, it actually brought me to my (metaphorical) knees. Because I realized that I left denomination before so as not to be outside the Lord's will and also to be under His unique authority. To stay in the LC (actually I didn't have a choice, I was told to leave because I was "trouble") would be hypocritical.

I join you in your prayer. Knowing the LORD, He is Faithful to lead you and guide you to a fountain of Living Waters where He will splash your spirit with Newness of Life ! He will shed off the old wineskin and clothe you a Glorious New Wineskin ! He will heal your restore your health and heal your wounds (Jeremiah 30:17)

Amen--not putting the new wine into old wineskins has really been on my heart. How do you walk away from those you love? And yet the Lord was merciful enough not to have me do this but instead, just as I asked in prayer after prayer, "Lord if this is of you, please transform me and bring me into you in a clearer way, but Lord, if this is not of you then I pray with your authority to bind the enemy--cast out satan from the situation and bind the enemy." I believe being cast out and cut off the way I have been is really the Lord mercifully closing the door and bringing me to something new.

Continue to ask the Lord DAILY to give you Wisdom and Revelation in the Knowledge of Him. (Ephesians 1:17) and to Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Pray for your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:5-6) And may the Holy Spirit make it manifest, as you/we ought to speak (Colossians 4:4) to one another and to people in general wherever we are. [/COLOR]

Amen--my spouse and I labor at this daily going before the Lord together. What a mercy that the Lord brought us through together.

The Lord promises us in Psalm 37:4 that if we delight in HIM, He will grant us the desires of our heart. The fact you are seeking first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; is a testament all these things shall be added unto you.

Oh Lord in your mercy keep me faithfully searching for you first. Thank you Lord you are righteous!

Hmmm...we must be very careful never to think Christ is duping us. It is never CHRIST who dupes us !

You know in the bible the verse states "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" and so for a very short time I asked the Lord, "Lord am I Esau? Because I don't understand why you hate me so? " But fortunately that passed, it was truly an attack of the enemy. This is why I seek fellowship from the true saints, because I know only a true saint would understand this experience. Christ has truly become my subjective reality and all in all.

He believed the 'outer darkness' spoken of in the bible was something like Purgatory and not all saints were going to be in the Millenial Kindom.

See it was never explained to me this way and I got something different from reading the LS of Revelation. But I am not led by the Lord to comment further on this because I believe it would take me off course form where He needs me to remain in Spirit. But maybe at another time I will inquire again.

Lee could possibly be wrong ?

Personally because of my experience with catholicism I new he could be but I also gave him the benefit that time would correct his course. When I found something that didn't resound with my spirit I just kept searching and searching, many times I believe WLee did correct himself but I am not sure if the brothers expressed it as such. I have been made painfully aware of the need for infallability, but again nto sure if this was WLee's intention to create this aura. For me I always say, "I am not perfect, but I am being perfected" This gives God the glory for the transformation and allows for my incapacity to overcome my flesh. I believe that comes like a drip of water wearing away at a stone.

It took me a long time to come to terms that LEE was WRONG and that it was OK for me to say he was wrong !
(Believe me. I do A LOT of studying before I call anyone out. On topics I am not clear yet, I don't give an opinion.

But as I kept searching the scriptures, asking the Lord to give me understanding, to enlighten me, I began to see WITH PROOF from the scriptures how Lee was wrong in some of his teachings (NOT all but some!) The Lord is never Wrong.[/COLOR] Man is.

When the Lord speaks to my spirit I can tell what is of Him and what is not. For this reason I think I spent my time in the LC as open to the saints and the ministry as possible, but never so open as to place them before my ability to operate in Christ. So, it is only through Christ's confirmation in my spirit that I could truly say "AMEN!" Sometimes this confirmation came quickly, sometimes it came over years, and some things have never been confirmed by the ministry. Yet they are indelibly written into my spirit and therefore I can still say, "AMEN!" I just might not have other saints agree.

Awww... WAS your/our WHOLE being really set on CHRIST ? OR did you/we think it was ? Religion is a subtle, funny thing.

As whole as I was humanly able to do within this vessel that is still transforming. I try not to get too comfortable where I am, because the Lord will surely take me on a journey...

The Word of God tells us to search the scriptures (John 5:39 & Acts 17:11) Do you think we in the LC actually took the time to search the scriptures for ourselves ? I know I didn't ![/COLOR]

I always read the ministry and I read the word, but once these situations started I REALLY RED THE MINISTRY. Because I wanted to make sure that I was not maligning WLEE and the saints in the LC. I knew that my love for the Lord was strong but was I ready in season and out of season? My spouse and I read together and even came up with areas that WLEE corrected himself, sometimes, the brothers quoted only a certain portion of WLEE and WNEE but left out crucial points. This pointing out the crucial points intentionally admitted was our escort to the door. Because this clearly demonstrated that the brothers themselves were not clear on the ministry. What a sad situation--the Lord is dealing with us all...

He may have taught that but he too got in snaired with that 'curse'. Don't think for a moment he was not filled with natural ambition. He may have not started out with personal ambition but he was bit by it too. It happens all the time especially when a person has a BIG following of people. May GOD protect us ALL from having a false ambition.

Again, I have no knowledge of this of WLEE (not to say it doesn't exist), from his writings I know he warned of this over and over. In practice however, we all fail. Even if I had evidence what would I care really? My faith is not in WLee, my faith is in Christ. King David did disreputable things (and no, I am not comparing WLee to King David as a King) but look what the Lord could do with David? I pray the Lord would see this broken vessel, mend it, expunge it ,and do something with it. And if I fail in all your eyes, may I have favor in His.

He Will ! He is faithful to grant us the desires of our hearts...especially when we are putting HIM FIRST ! But remember, we go through tests, trials and tribulations and temptations. James 1:12 tells us the person who endures these tests is a blessed man and will receive a crown of LIFE !

Yes I definitely understand the tests, trials and tribulations--but what a glory for the Lord when we all rise up because of resurrection life and satan is eternally shamed.

Halleluiah to the Lamb dear saint ! Death cannot hold the Resurrection Life!

You know what the Holy Spirit revealed to me ?!? I never understood why Paul often spoke of himself as being a prisoner of the Lord. The word prisoner has such a horrible connotation. I associate it with a criminal behind bars...a suffering person. But a few months ago, the Lord revealed to me that I myself AM a prisoner of the Lord just like Paul ! It dawned on me like lit up lightbulb one day. Being a prisoner of the Lord is OUR PROTECTION ! The more we are IN CHRIST, the more the devil & his minions are surrounding the prison of Christ so that if we step outside of Christ, they're ready to TRY to make mincemeat out of us ! Well...I've been there. Done that. So NOW I get what it means to be a prisoner of the LORD ! And there's no other place I want to be ! Praise You Lord Jesus ! Thank You for making me a prisoner of the LORD ! All Glory and Honor and Blessing to You forevermore!

This is precisely what the Lord has shown us. We have been drawn out for our protection. But now I am here praying to the Lord and pleading with Him--"Lord please give me strength to battle on for you, that it is your life in me, not my own." The enemy is strong but we are stronger in Christ.

Thank you for sharing your experiences and what the Lord is revealing to you TOC. May the Lord continue to shine His Lovely Face upon you, strengthening your spirit, your innerman, that you may be counted worthy to receive
the Crown of Life (James 1:12)
the Crown of Rejoicing, (1 Thessalonians 2:19)
the Crown of Righteousness, (1 Timothy 4:8)
the Incorruptible Crown, (1 Corinthians 9:25) and
the Crown of Glory (1 Peter 5:4) .

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Amen! I believe the Lord always needs a remnant to remain pure of heart. I believe this is what we have been called to. With this comes a tremendous responsibility to be faithful to His word. Ready for His calling, waiting and watching for His return. I learned from the ministry that the Lord operates so hidden and mysterious. We can enter in but only when in spirit.

Thank you saint for touching my spirit today, feeding me with your Christ and allowing His testimony in us to flourish. Satan we are not defeated!!! We are becoming an army for Christ. You can not stop what God has deposited.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers 39 Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.