[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

Wow, aron, I’m surprised that you of all posters would go that far (as you said afield) with the book of Enoch! Jude took the following from that book “Behold, the Lord has come amidst myriads of His holy ones, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all the works of ungodliness which they have done in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” And it seems what he otherwise wrote was influenced by it, then in the rest of his epistle has severe warnings about those in the church who speak things about “what they do not know yet confidently assert” and do so for profit like Balaam. Paul likewise had similar counsel to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1. Lee often followed his favorite so called “great Brethren teachers” like G.H Pember and D. M. Panton in areas like this and I like other good local churches followed in many areas, perhaps too far? that most Christian teachers avoid. I don’t mind following books of canon there for a while, but an apocryphal book recognized by Roman Catholics and few others. Really. Please help me understand why that is advisable in light of the strength of Jude and Paul’s warnings. Or am I being overly careful?

The book of Enoch is not recognized by the Roman Catholics. Only by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church to my knowledge.

My question was, What did Jesus think? That is our focus. So when Jesus said, "An evil spirit flies out of a person and goes through waterless places seeking rest", we might wonder what he meant. Did he base this on some scriptural source? Did he bring some extra-biblical knowledge down from heaven, which never made it into print except in a few oblique references like this?

Many people just ignore such sayings because they don't know where to put them. With Lazarus and the rich man, same thing. Lazarus is on a pleasant place, resting, and the rich man is in torment. But a great gulf, or abyss, separates them. Where is this kind of concept from? Should we care? Do we just ignore it? Make up our own explanations based on "how it might be"? Or the "gates of Hades" - where did that come from, and why is it so prominently featured in the Revelation of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God that the Father in Heaven showed Peter (Matt 16)? Whence cometh these "gates of Hades"? Should we ignore this phrase? Pass over it without comment? Extrapolate from our own sensibilities?

My method is to look in surrounding literature. But it goes precisely to my point, which is that nothing we do should overturn our faith in Jesus as the crucified an resurrected Messiah. But it may provide clues as to how we got caught, for a while, by Witness Lee's publishing house and mind control system, both of which are aspects of the same phenomena and which phenomena may be related to the dual falls of Genesis 3 (humanity) and Genesis 6 (the 'sons of God'). Clearly the dual falls are related in Genesis, and to the flood which followed.

Now, what did Jesus think of the dual falls of Genesis 3 and 6, and the flood which followed? Did his "an unclean spirit comes out of a man, and flies about" have any relation with this narrative? I suspect yes, but if so, how?

Look at 2 Peter, for example. "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment". And Jude "And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling--these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day." Think about the prevalent gospel concepts of "binding and loosing" in this context. This is not esoteric but related to immediate daily Christian practice. (Or, it should be.)

Now, again, to my point: "For all the gods of the nations are idols,
but the Lord made the heavens." ~Psalm 96:5

Who are "all the gods of the nations"? And is this related to the fact that many of us became effectively enslaved by a "Chinese warlord" as at least one disaffected escapee termed him? I read an article and began to wonder. It made sense to me. But --- it is not a basis of fellowship. My fellowship is based on my faith in the suffering and glorified Jesus. That is my faith, not that Psalm 96, through Justin Martyr and 1 Enoch, possibly points to the spirit of disobedience behind the LC movement. Just thinking aloud, is all.

My faith is my faith. I consider it immutable. I confessed, I repented, I was baptised. I declare Jesus as Lord. Now, my thinking... that comes and goes...

For the record, the article at hand is: "The Trickery of the Fallen Angels and the Demonic Mimesis of the Divine: Aetiology, Demonology, and Polemics in the Writings of Justin Martyr" by Annette Yoshiko Reed. Journal of Early Christian Studies. 2004;12(2):141-71. Johns Hopkins U. Press.

Throughout his works Justin Martyr equates the "gods of the nations" with demons (Psa 96:5) and explores the various ways in which they deceptively imitate the divine in order to lead unwary humans away from belief in the one God and his Saviour Son.

When I read this, I started thinking of WL's teachings and practices which essentially became the basis of fellowship in the LC, as "deceptively imitating the divine" and leading many astray. I was there, and remember. Repetitively shouting outline and HWMR sections. It seemed godly but when I look at the fruit it's obvious it wasn't. And I also suspect the repetitive shouting caused us to overlook the clear unrighteousness and unbiblical events which were happening right in front of us.

Daystar is my Exhibit A. When the church leader (Witness Lee) takes church members $$ and invests it in a business run by his immediate family, that's a conflict of interest. Doesn't matter that the business went belly-up and the $$ disappeared. What matters is that it was set up in the first place. It should have been obvious what was happening. But people were duped, led astray. What spirit was at work, here? A spirit of deception. I think it's worth asking such questions. And looking into the Bible, specifically Jesus' teachings, for answers. But my answers are not a basis of fellowship. My answers are tentative and subject to pruning by the 'ekklesia'. Perhaps even drastic pruning.