Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped
BJB, you mentioned "trinitarian influence" a few posts prior. I just finished reading Matthew again today and toward the end of it is Matthew 28:19 - Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Funnily enough, wikipedia says this about that verse, I kid you not: "This verse is part of the Great Commission narrative, containing the command to go, teach and baptize new disciples with the trinitarian formula."
Obviously this is one verse probably many Triune-holders point to. When you read it what is your takeaway given that "name" is singular and there are three names associated to it?
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I haven't read everything you've posted, but some of what you've said reminds me of Herbert Armstrong's teachings. If I understood it correctly, I think he (or some who follow his teachings) makes a distinction between "God" and "God-kind". In other words, God the Father is "the one true God" just as Jesus refers to His Father as, i.e. GOD. And Jesus, the Son of God, isn't GOD because He's the Son of God, but as the Son of God He is still considered "God-kind". In this way, Jesus thus retains a sense of deity and ever-existence without being "the one true God" or "GOD".....which is, as already stated, the Father. I've seen some posters give you grief for not saying Jesus is God......would you agree with Jesus being at least "God-kind" or no?
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Not familiar with Armstrong, but using terms that I don’t find in scripture to make definitions and then get a following to buy into terms scares me.
I ended up on this alt site because my original posts on main site Modalism led the moderator to believe that I was trying to market a my own brand of theology using his forum. I understand his concerns, and hold the moderator Untohim in the highest regards as a dear brother, however, I don’t think one can have a good discussion about WLs teaching without considering what I brought up. I am really not interested in debating Jesus is or isn’t God, nor trinitarianism, but rather to offer a view for consideration. I feel that the scripture gives us the view of God in very human and understandable language; that we view God as our Father, that we hold the notion of One God and Father. In human terms, since the beginning with Adam, through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the scripture gives us a real good understanding of the term father, the headship of the father, the position of the father, the reverence for father. ( not withstanding the modern degradation of this position of father, and so many dysfunctional families now a days). This human, understandable presentation of God is the forefront of the NT. As God’s family, we hold God our Father in the highest regard. Indeed, Paul says the oneness of our experience of this is to have one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and the in all. This is the human experience of the headship of the father that we can all understand. The position of son, particularly the firstborn son, the inheritor in the family as portrayed in the scripture is also a very understandable human thing, with so many examples given in the scripture. This is what is given to us in the scripture- the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, Jesus the son, and we, the many children who are in Christ, inheritors with him. By altering all of this clearly understandable approach to God, we warp the word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Christianity took a wrong turn in the 3rd/ 4th centuries to somewhat redefine God as a trinity and something was lost. People were murdered and tortured for not accepting this. All who did not proclaim were not in a good state, to say the least. For over 1000 years the church suffered. When the reformation came along, some strange practices such as the worship of Mary, the mother of God we’re exposed, but the trinity thing seemed to stay intact, although controversial. So, our discussion is about WL/LSM/LC. WL, in borrowing from W Née and some others, brought to the forefront what the scripture had to say about how to meet. This was a great thing to learn and practice particularly considering all the 1000s of splinter and denominational assemblies that function in the US. This was referred to as the “recovery” of the church. BUT- WL went way further and then manipulated to fill the LCs with his own brand of trinitarianism. His was the most egregious because it completely redefined God into something the scripture never spoke of- a processed triune god.
It’s interesting to note that in the Catholic as well as Lutheran assemblies, God the Father is given the most mention and worship. In just one meeting of either of those assemblies you would hear more about God our Father than in 1000 WL/LSM gatherings. The teachings of WL produced a bunch of people that followed his thought instead of the scripture. This is a cult.
A true recovery in my thinking would not have reverted the church back to the 3rd/4th century, but rather to the foundational church where triune god, Jesus is God talk would not even be the vocabulary, but rather a Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. I have to say I’m sorry to Untohim, but I don’t know a better way to bring this up without stepping on his trinitarian toes. OUCH!
The scripture gives us this very understandable, human (in the image of God) understanding of one God and Father, and Jesus the son of God, who after his redemptive work sat down at the right hand of his Father, whom the God and Father of Jesus made head over all to the Church.
I was in the LC for over 13 years, and this was not the ministry of the WL/LSM, nor by what I read is the current view. The whole processed triune god thing was not only wrong, it was blasphemy. The trinity thing is a deviation in scripture in that it was not the teaching given to us by the Holy Spirit- What was given was one God the Father and the son whom he gave to redeem us- very very understandable on human terms. Lee took the trinity thing and really went into the tar pit and to try to argue which is more correct the triune god or the processed triune god I are both unscriptural teachings and do not lead us to the scriptural presentation of God our Father and His son Jesus. John encourages us to return to that which was from the beginning so that we could have that fellowship with God our Father and with His Son Jesus the Christ- the perspective that is give to us throughout the NT.
I long for the “recovery” of the church- hope it is not another 1000 years!