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Old 03-11-2020, 08:17 AM   #73
manna-man's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
Posts: 302

Originally Posted by OBW View Post
(Sorry for not responding sooner, but I don't frequent the site as much as I used to.)

When you ask "What does The Spirit have to say . . ." you raise an interesting question. I do not deny that the Spirit speaks, and even does so independently of the words found in scripture. But the problem is whether the thing we want to attribute to the Spirit is actually from the Spirit and not from another source, whether our own desires, those of someone else, or even something "spiritual" that is not the Spirit.

In many ways, the understanding of any passage that in some manner refers to punishment (torment) is like trying to pin down the meaning of the many prophecies in Revelation. What they mean precisely is unclear. But what they should mean presently to anyone who is a believer or considering whether to believe is more clear. Whether torment is eternal or temporal; whether temporal torment (if that is what is meant) ends with annihilation, or with restoration; whether horses, bowls and seals mean this or that; there is a clear warning to believe and to live in accordance with that belief.

In other words, the warnings are meant to be less a detail for the results of failure than a shepherd's rod to direct us along the right path. Understood in this way, the point is to move us in the right direction, not to give us details of the result of moving in the wrong direction.

So if the goal is to support the detailed account of what happens to the unbeliever, there is some concern that what we come up with is a false teaching. But if the goal is to support that there is a cost and that saying that is for the purpose of moving us along the correct path, then it is a true teaching written in metaphors and types.

I think that anyone that tries to develop an absolute teaching on hell, eternal torment, temporal torment, annihilation, or whatever on the negative side is working with nothing more than types, figures, and metaphors. So at some level, any "absolute" teaching in this area is potentially false, though it could be true. The point (to me) is that it is not about the negative outcome, but ensuring that you don't have that outcome. To dwell on the negative outcome and seek to pin it down is to miss the point.
Greetings dear brother Mike,

The point here is to pin down a topic nobody wants to address. To not kowtow to fear.

IMHO...if we are paying attention to the scriptures and the Spirits leading, when we learn of the depths of gods wisdom, love and his mercy. We also learn of his character.

His character is extraordinary. So much so that it actually defines everything. He is the beginning and end of everything, the author of our faith.
To simplify matters may we agree that he defines what is acceptable or unacceptable.

What is acceptable? A few examples....1 Corinthians 13*New International Version (NIV)

13*If I speak in the tongues[a]*of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.*2*If I have the gift of prophecy*and can fathom all mysteries*and all knowledge,*and if I have a faith*that can move mountains,*but do not have love, I am nothing.*3*If I give all I possess to the poor*and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b]*but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4*Love is patient,*love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.*5*It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking,*it is not easily angered,*it keeps no record of wrongs.*6*Love does not delight in evil*but rejoices with the truth.*7*It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8*Love never fails. But where there are prophecies,*they will cease; where there are tongues,*they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.*9*For we know in part*and we prophesy in part,*10*but when completeness comes,*what is in part disappears.*11*When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood*behind me.*12*For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror;*then we shall see face to face.*Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13*And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.*But the greatest of these is love.

What is unacceptable? The opposite of above.

Getting back to His character.....

In Gods foreknowledge and actual plan for humanity, did He consider what would happen if a percentage of his creation ignored/rejected his consumate plan? Surely He did for we know of his wisdom.
Therefore what is this hell/eternal torment thing all about?
Is God really going to burn people, torment them forever and ever?

Are we attacking gods character for asking such questions? Certainly not!

We should be understanding more about him and his love through our seeking and abiding.
We should be defending the faith by rejecting false teachings which harden the hearts of those who are perishing.

May The Lord increase our love for him and one another and definitely for those who are perishing while there is still time!

Hose Jr
Proverbs 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.
Character is much easier kept than recovered. Thomas Paine.
I'm Don Hose Jr.
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