Lee and the book of Job

[awareness]

So we were having a very active discussion about the book of Job, until UnToHim hosed us down with his fire hose.

Lee has a Life Study of Job. And of course the book of Job has to do with Lees' God's Economy. Lee saw in the book of Job something that wasn't there. Take a look at chapter 12 of Lee's Life Study of Job.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...27%3A%20%29%0A

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So we were having a very active discussion about the book of Job, until UnToHim hosed us down with his fire hose.

Lee has a Life Study of Job. And of course the book of Job has to do with Lees' God's Economy. Lee saw in the book of Job something that wasn't there. Take a look at chapter 12 of Lee's Life Study of Job.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...27%3A%20%29%0A

In that active discussion I was accused of having "Lee esque" teaching. I challenged this, in Post #165, Elvis has left the building, "If this is so Lee esque, why don't you quote what Lee shared on the book of Job. Lee never shared any of this. This is a genuine straw man argument that you have not provided the least bit of evidence to support. Provide one quote from WL that he interpreted Job this way, because I never saw it."

I have gone to the Life Study of Job, chapter 29, and gathered the appropriate quotes, you be the judge. WL quotes are in black, mine are in blue.

WL: In His questioning of Job, Jehovah first asked him, "Who is this who darkens counsel/By words without knowledge?" (38:2). Would you like to be addressed in this way? This kind of question is neither pleasant nor peaceful but quite threatening. Eventually, Job would have to admit that it was he who darkened counsel by speaking words of nonsense, words without revelation.

ZNP: 1. Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

Clearly, to have a productive discussion requires some basic knowledge. You need to know certain things.


WL: Job 38:4-38 covers the divine unveiling concerning the universe, including matters related to astronomy and geography. During this unveiling Jehovah asked Job a number of questions. For instance, He asked him, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?/Tell Me, if you have understanding./Who set its measurements—if you know?/Or who stretched the measuring line over it?/Onto what were its bases sunk,/Or who laid its cornerstone,/When the morning stars sang together/And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (vv. 4-7).

In the divine unveilings to Job, there was nothing concerning the purpose of God in dealing with Job. Thus, the adequate knowledge of this matter is not found in this book. The revelation regarding the purpose of God's dealing with Job had to wait until Christ came and until the apostle Paul was produced.

ZNP: 2. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the Earth?

The Lord asks Job a number of questions about the details of how the Foundation of the Earth was laid. According to the context, this is the Lord’s answer to Job’s question. So for part 1, what is the point to life, the Lord could respond that this was the laying of the foundation for Job’s life. If you read the rest of the story that would be consistent. For part 2 you could say that God is building a man that can judge the wicked, and what he has been doing is to lay the foundation for this man. For part 3 you could say that the Lord is laying a foundation, not punishing Job for sins. This also is consistent with the beginning of the story. Clearly, the evil that came upon Job was not a response to sin.

WL: In 40:2 Jehovah said to Job, "Shall one who finds fault contend with the Almighty?/Let him who argues with God answer it." Jehovah's question here indicates that He regarded Job as a fault finder, as one who was contending with the Almighty. Job had been arguing with God and even condemning him. Job could not deny that this was the very thing that he had been doing.

ZNP: 3. Job 40:1 “moreover the Lord answered Job and said, shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct Him?”

God is saying ‘Ok, you instruct me, you don’t like what I am doing, even though I have created the entire universe and done many marvelous works that you are completely clueless about, fine, instruct me, how do I build a man?’ To say that these questions are an answer to Job require that you use the context of the preceding 37 chapters.


WL: Finally, Jehovah asked Job if he had an arm like God's and if he could thunder with a voice like His (v. 9).
The book of Job is a book of argument. In reading this book, we need to learn of Job, of his three friends, and of Elihu to be silent and let God be the only one to speak.

ZNP: 4. Job 40:9 “Hast thou an arm like God? Or canst thou thunder with a voice like Him?”

Again, this is the Lord answering Job’s question. 1. What is the point of human life? Well, it is to express God, we were made in the image and likeness of God. Therefore we should have an arm like God and a voice like God. 2. Who and where is the man that will judge the wicked? He is a man that is made in the image and likeness of God. This is the point of the book of Job. God is making Job into His image and likeness. All of the complaints were about the process, God says ‘look you don’t even know how to make the Earth, why are you complaining about how I make a man in my image?’ 3. What is my sin? Your sin is that you have fallen short of the glory of God. You think that it is good enough to be righteous, but what God wants is a man that expresses him. God wants a man that has an arm like His and a voice like His.

Personally, I feel that the accusation that I was teaching "Lee esque" is patently untrue. For example WL's statement that there was nothing concerning the purpose of God in dealing with Job is a direct contradiction of my teaching, but ironically very much in line with those accusing me of teaching "Lee esque". I feel I am owed an apology by both of them.


OBW Post #139, Elvis has left the building: “I know you wont like this, but this kind of argument is very Lee-esque.”

OBW Post #161, Elvis has left the Building: “And, once again, this is very Lee-esque. You don't have to like the comparison. But it is real.”

Awareness Post #137, Elvis has left the building: “So you've gotten out of Lee's movement, but haven't got Lee's movement out of you?”



Take a look at the quotes from WL and tell me who is darkening counsel without knowledge?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Personally, I feel that the accusation that I was teaching "Lee esque" is patently untrue.

Aside from the personal I see this Lee-esque as very positive.

There was a time in my life if someone said I was Lee-esque I would have taken it as a compliment. And it would have prolly given me a big head.

But now we look at it as a derogatory term, a put-down.

And look at you bro ZNP. You've come a long way. You no longer consider it a good thing to be called Lee-esque. What a turn around! And you want an apology for being called such a awful thing. Boy we've all come such a long way.

And I personally don't know that you are being Lee-esque. As I see it what you are doing is way to common to be specific to Lee.

Because I can't see what you see in the book of Job it looks as if you are seeing something that is not there.

But I could be wrong. Unlike the Song of Songs the book of Job is quoted and referenced in the NT.

It would be interesting to see the quoted material from Job side by side with the NT.

I could do it, but it would be a lot of work. And I've seen brothers out here that have the ability to do this with a certain Bible aid that they purchased. Maybe they could help us, and in the end what you claim to see could be vindicated.

Anyone up to it?

[awareness]

Rev. 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and
shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Job 3:21 - Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
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2 Thes. 2:8 - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
his coming:

Job 4:9 - By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
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1 Cor. 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is
written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Job 5:13 - He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
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Heb. 12:5 - And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you
as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nore
faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Jas. 1:12 - Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried,
he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that
love him.

and Rev. 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous
therefore, and repent.

all parallel Job 5:17 - Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth:
therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

and Job 23:10 - But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I
shall come forth as gold.
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Jas. 4:14 - Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is
your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then
vanisheth away.

Job 7:6 - My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without
hope.
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Heb. 2:6 - But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou
shouldest set thine heart upon him?
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Heb. 12:26 - Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised,
saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Job 9:6 - Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof
tremble.
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Rom. 9:20 - Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall
the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

alludes to Job 9:32 - For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer
him, and we should come together in judgment.
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Rom. 11:33 - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

parallels Job 35:7 - If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
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Acts 17:28 - For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Job 12:10 - In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of
all mankind.
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1 Cor. 4:5 - Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,
who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make
manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of
God.

Job 12:22 - He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to
light the shadow of death.
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1 Pet. 1:24 - For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of
grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Job 14:2 - He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a
shadow, and continueth not.
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Lk. 19:22 - And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee,
thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that
I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

Job 15:6 - Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips
testify against thee.
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Rom. 1:9 - For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel
of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

parallels Job 16:19 - Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.
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1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet
appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be
like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Job 19:26 - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
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Rev. 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is
poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be
tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in
the presence of the Lamb:

and Rev 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he
treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

parallel Job 21:20 - His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
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Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been
his counsellor?

and 1 Cor. 2:16 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may
instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

quotes Isa. 40:13 - Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his
counsellor hath taught him?

which parallels Job 21:22 - Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
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Mt. 25:42 - For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

alludes to Job 22:7 - Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.
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Jas. 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

and 1 Pet. 5:5 - Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea,
all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God
resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

both quote Prov. 3:34, - Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace
unto the lowly.

which parallels Job 22:29 - When men are cast down, then thou shalt say,
There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.
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Acts 1:7 - And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Job 24:1 - Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days?
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Heb. 4:13 - Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but
all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to
do.

parallels Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no
covering.
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Mt. 16:26 - For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

alludes to Job 27:8 - For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath
gained, when God taketh away his soul?
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Jas. 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all
men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Job 32:8 - But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty
giveth them understanding.
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1 Jo. 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

alludes to Job 33:27-28 - He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have
sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
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Jas. 5:4 - Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your
fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them
which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

alludes to Job 34:28 - So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.
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Rev. 16:21 - And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone
about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague
of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

alludes to Job 38:22-23 - Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or
canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof
in the earth?
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Mt. 6:26 - Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap,
nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not
much better than they?

alludes to Job 38:41 - Who provideth for the raven his food? when his
young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
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Rom. 11:35 - Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed
unto him again?

Job 41:11 - Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is
under the whole heaven is mine.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In that active discussion I was accused of having "Lee esque" teaching. I challenged this, in Post #165, Elvis has left the building, "If this is so Lee esque, why don't you quote what Lee shared on the book of Job. Lee never shared any of this. This is a genuine straw man argument that you have not provided the least bit of evidence to support. Provide one quote from WL that he interpreted Job this way, because I never saw it."

I promised one response in this thread. I will make to to this opening point in this post. Then I will leave it to the asylum.

I am not going to read the remainder of your post. I see that it essentially ends with the same 3-point statements about what that verse about God's arm and voice are about. This is one of the very statements "out of the air" that I need more than your words about. They need to connect to the text. But instead you say that because we are to bear the image of God we are to have it. Huh?? Say again??

The answer to the above point you make is to note that you don't actually read the questions. or you don't actually want to respond to them. So you create one strawman after another. Complain that I am calling you a liar or something like that. It really doesn't matter because nothing Lee shared is relevant to the discussion that I thought we were trying to have or to my complaints about your posts.

It is this. And only this. Your method of interpreting scripture does not seem to actually deal with the scripture being used. You make statements about God suggesting we should have an arm of strength. Or that it is really about the One New Man. But when I can't see how you get from the verses you use to that position, you just mock me and do not give a response. That is what is Lee-esque. Say your piece, refuse questions, and mock those with different interpretations. It would appear that your interpretation is based upon something that is not being revealed. Until you reveal it, there is no rational basis to accept your position.

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

But, from past experience, I would expect that right about now you would be gearing up to go quote more Lee from his life study of Job and prove that you are not just being Lee-esque.

And then, once again, you would answer a question not asked but claim that you had.

That is a strawman. Plain and simple. I guess you think everyone else is too stupid to see through it.

I do. And I'm tired of your madness. It needs a method. And an opening so that you can check to see when it is ultimately right or wrong. Instead, you seem to presume that I and everyone else should just accept your word for everything and shut up.

So I will.

[awareness]

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

So unless our brother ZNP can pull a rabbit out of his hat, and prove otherwise, I'm forced to conclude that bro Z's claims are totally his concoction, pretty much made out of whole new cloth.

I might add that both his claims come straight from Witness Lee. Who taught that the purpose of man is to express God, and that it would be accomplished by "The Building" culminating in the New Jerusalem.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

Thank you, your hard work is much appreciated.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

I am tempted to misquote John Houseman here, but that wouldn't be decent.

Originally Posted by awareness

So unless our brother ZNP can pull a rabbit out of his hat, and prove otherwise, I'm forced to conclude that bro Z's claims are totally his concoction, pretty much made out of whole new cloth.

Relax, I will respond. However, I have no intention of pulling rabbits out of these verses, only Christ, the Church and God's purpose for man.

Originally Posted by awareness

I might add that both his claims come straight from Witness Lee. Who taught that the purpose of man is to express God, and that it would be accomplished by "The Building" culminating in the New Jerusalem.

Well I am glad you added that because otherwise this entire post is off topic as well as all the verses you posted. They should be in a thread "Job and the NT".

I think everyone will agree that WL taught certain Bible truths, and to say that "Justification by Faith" came from WL because he taught it is absurd. WL gave a Life Study on Job, I have quoted relevant quotes from the Life Study to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that WL did not teach any of this about Job. Therefore, it is ridiculous to say that my claims come straight from WL. If I had stood up during the LS of Job and taught this I would have been shouted down as being rebellious.

So, WL taught the Purpose of Man is to express God. That is a Bible truth. If you want to discuss this truth start a new thread. WL taught the Bible culminates in the NJ. That also is a Bible truth. If you want to discuss that truth, start a new thread. But WL also taught that there is nothing of God's purpose in the book of Job. That is a "Lee esque" teaching. I did not teach that. You and OBW did. If anyone has "Lee esque" teachings on Job it is you and OBW. You should have the common decency to admit it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

This is one of the questions that Job addresses to God. In Post #126 (all referenced posts are from the thread on Elvis has left the building). I lumped this verse into the first part of the question as “What is the point to life?” Later, in God’s answer, I put his answer into two parts. In part 1 I said that the answer would be that all the troubles and suffering in the book of Job were God laying the foundation in Job’s life, not annulling all the work he had done. In part 2 I said that the answer is that we were made in the image and likeness of God, the point of life is to express God.

So here is the section in Hebrews that quotes Job 7:17
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Clearly, this verse is quoted in Hebrews as referring to Jesus. And, the reference is about how man doesn’t look like anything, he was made lower than the angels so that he could go through the suffering of death and taste death for every man, and that passing through that he was crowned with Glory and honor. This is also what I said the book of Job is about. The sufferings that Job passes through lay the foundation for his life, and for him to be a man in the image of God.

In Post #129, Awareness asks “still weak. Where is the man God is makin.” The man is here, referenced in Hebrews 2:5-9. The writer says clearly “we see Jesus” referring, in part to this reference in Job.

In Post #135 I said that Jesus is a man that meets this standard. In #136 I said Jesus is such a man.

In Post #139 OBW said “And this is what I find continually lacking in these kinds of arguments. The mere fact that you can discuss the attributes of Jesus in these terms does not make this book about it.”

In Post #145 OBW said “This book is the early discussion about the coexistence of God and evil. It is not a prophetic book about Jesus or the church.” Tell that to the writer of Hebrews.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

This is one of the questions that Job addresses to God. In Post #126 (all referenced posts are from the thread on Elvis has left the building). I lumped this verse into the first part of the question as “What is the point to life?” Later, in God’s answer, I put his answer into two parts. In part 1 I said that the answer would be that all the troubles and suffering in the book of Job were God laying the foundation in Job’s life, not annulling all the work he had done. In part 2 I said that the answer is that we were made in the image and likeness of God, the point of life is to express God.

So here is the section in Hebrews that quotes Job 7:17
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Clearly, this verse is quoted in Hebrews as referring to Jesus. And, the reference is about how man doesn’t look like anything, he was made lower than the angels so that he could go through the suffering of death and taste death for every man, and that passing through that he was crowned with Glory and honor. This is also what I said the book of Job is about. The sufferings that Job passes through lay the foundation for his life, and for him to be a man in the image of God.

In Post #129, Awareness asks “still weak. Where is the man God is makin.” The man is here, referenced in Hebrews 2:5-9. The writer says clearly “we see Jesus” referring, in part to this reference in Job.

In Post #135 I said that Jesus is a man that meets this standard. In #136 I said Jesus is such a man.

In Post #139 OBW said “And this is what I find continually lacking in these kinds of arguments. The mere fact that you can discuss the attributes of Jesus in these terms does not make this book about it.”

In Post #145 OBW said “This book is the early discussion about the coexistence of God and evil. It is not a prophetic book about Jesus or the church.” Tell that to the writer of Hebrews.

Well okay bro Z. I see your point/s. Good work, but you are still stretching the book of Job into "the purpose of man is to express God," and that the book of Job is to build a man. That is clearly not what the author of Job intended.

The fact that the author of Hebrews used Job to make his point does not change the book of Job into pictures we wish to design upon it.

But good and harmless work bro Z. I knew you'd come thru eventually.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Verse 5 and 6 parallel Job 5:17 and 23:10

According to Hebrews we should look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who endured the cross, despised the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of Glory when we are going through experiences similar to those described in Job. Clearly the writer of Hebrews sees Jesus in the book of Job. He sees the story of Jesus being crucified, resurrected and ascended as an example for us also to endure the same and compares that story to the story of Job.

And the path of the cross that Jesus took in Heb 12:2 and that we should follow in verses 12:3-6 leads to Mount Zion:

12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,More…
12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.More
12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Verse 26 is a reference to Job 9:6. The verse is explained by the writer of Hebrews to mean “the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain”. This is the book of Job in a nutshell. This is what I meant when I talked about the cataclysmic event that “laid the foundation” of the Earth. It was this foundation that set the stage for life on this planet. In the same way the events in Job laid the foundation for Job to receive the kingdom which cannot be moved.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heartMore
4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 4:13 is a reference to Job 26:6. The point here is that the people of God have not arrived, they need to labor to enter into that rest. We have the word of God and we have Jesus our high priest. Therefore we can get the timely help we need. In the book of Job he asks who this man is and where is he, and asks if God has eyes of flesh to judge us. Job’s question to God is very clear, we need help, we need someone that can understand and sympathize with man of flesh. I said that God’s answer is that Jesus, the man in the image and likeness of God, is that man. The writer of Hebrews also says the same, though he brings in this light about the word of God also.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Your method of interpreting scripture does not seem to actually deal with the scripture being used. You make statements about God suggesting we should have an arm of strength. Or that it is really about the One New Man. But when I can't see how you get from the verses you use to that position, you just mock me and do not give a response. That is what is Lee-esque. Say your piece, refuse questions, and mock those with different interpretations. It would appear that your interpretation is based upon something that is not being revealed. Until you reveal it, there is no rational basis to accept your position.

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

1Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.Moe
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Verse 19 is quoted from Job 5:13. It is the conclusion to everything Paul has shared. Paul said as a wise master builder he has laid the foundation of the church. I said that the book of Job was about God laying a foundation for a man that expresses God. I said that this man is Jesus and it is also the “One New Man” the “Church” that God is building.

So in Post #137 Awareness asked for NT references to Job concerning the New Man. The New Man is the church, and Paul was laying the foundation to the church as a wise master builder in 1Cor 3. Also, Hebrews 12 refers to Job repeatedly as it leads us to the New Jerusalem, the City of our God, an unshakeable kingdom.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try.

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

Sorry ZNP you've taken me all wrong. I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about how God, and the devil, is depicted in Job. Which is two different things.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry ZNP you've taken me all wrong. I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about how God, and the devil, is depicted in Job. Which is two different things.

Well then, clear it up for us.

What did you mean when you said "it really makes God, and the devil, buffoons."?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

Remember Eddie Murphy's Trading Spaces?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

It has been slightly less than 3 days. During this time I have probably posted something in excess of 3,000 words. I have references LSM life studies because you accused me of spouting Lee's teachings. I have referenced numerous verses from Job, as well as the NT. I have responded to everything asked of me. And this, during Labor Day weekend when my family and I are doing many other things, as well as being involved in service at the church.

This just comes across as whining and pathetic.

[Paul Cox]

Haven't had the time or heart to figure out what ya'll are fighting about. But I did go to the Life-study of Job, chapter 12. This caught my eye:

"Suppose there is a problem between you and your spouse, You should not do anything, for whatever you do will be in the realm of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You should simply pray-read Galatians 2:20."

I don't know, but in reading Paul he seems to talk about loving and submitting. Is that doing nothing but pray-reading? Address all your problems by just pray-reading scripture? I can't believe we fell for that sewer water for so many years.

Now if a couple will address all their problems only by pray-reading the bible, that will make their marriage only good within the context of the Local Church. It still doesn't teach them what it means to submit to and love one another.

If one is in the Local Church and the other one is not, the Lee zealot will address all issues by clinging to and pray-reading Lee's ministry. That only opens the gap bigger and bigger between these two Christian spouses. The one who clings to Lee's ministry will only grow colder and colder to the actual needs of the other. It solves nothing.

Lee's top lieutenants followed his prescription about praying-reading all problems away. That's why they were such a complete failure in dealing with those who disagree with them, both within and without. Except for trying to get everybody to agree with them, they have no other people skills. They can't claim to be "god-men." They haven't even learned yet how to be men-men.

P.C.

[awareness]

Good catch bro Paul. "In as much as ye do unto the least of these ye do unto me." And what does it say about pray-reading? Isn't pray-reading in this way espoused then just an escape? Maybe all pray-reading is an escape. Maybe it's just a way to deny reality.

Maybe pray-reading, in the end, was a way to make the mind numb so that we/they would be good followers, robots, of Witness Lee.

I too "can't believe we fell for that sewer water for so many years."

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Haven't had the time or heart to figure out what ya'll are fighting about. But I did go to the Life-study of Job, chapter 12. This caught my eye:

"Suppose there is a problem between you and your spouse, You should not do anything, for whatever you do will be in the realm of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You should simply pray-read Galatians 2:20."

I don't know, but in reading Paul he seems to talk about loving and submitting. Is that doing nothing but pray-reading? Address all your problems by just pray-reading scripture? I can't believe we fell for that sewer water for so many years.

Now if a couple will address all their problems only by pray-reading the bible, that will make their marriage only good within the context of the Local Church. It still doesn't teach them what it means to submit to and love one another.

If one is in the Local Church and the other one is not, the Lee zealot will address all issues by clinging to and pray-reading Lee's ministry. That only opens the gap bigger and bigger between these two Christian spouses. The one who clings to Lee's ministry will only grow colder and colder to the actual needs of the other. It solves nothing.

Lee's top lieutenants followed his prescription about praying-reading all problems away. That's why they were such a complete failure in dealing with those who disagree with them, both within and without. Except for trying to get everybody to agree with them, they have no other people skills. They can't claim to be "god-men." They haven't even learned yet how to be men-men.

P.C.

Although this post doesn't touch much else that is on this thread, it stuck out to me so much. Many brothers "at the top", including many elders in the churches, not just the LSM upper echelon, haven't yet learned how to be men-men, much less God-men. While prayer is nothing to be scoffed at, it's like they think the fact that they prayed for something once means the entire situation is resolved and never existed. NOPE! You need actual skills to be able to deal with people and problems and issues. I cannot currently think of one single brother in the local church who has these critical skills.

From my perspective, in the LCs there is a serious dearth of ...... goodness, I was going to say one word, but realized there are so many words I could fill in there that I don't even have the mental energy to devote to it.