The Process of God's Full Salvation - CANFIELD

[UntoHim]

http://www.thechristianfaith.org/page-gfs-pamphlet.htm
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[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

http://www.thechristianfaith.org/page-gfs-pamphlet.htm
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I appreciate the touch where, in About, clicking on the link of "What We Believe" brings up a picture of the Bible. Well done!

At the same time, though I respect Canfield's earnestness in standing for what he believes, his seeming wholesale support of the writings of Witness Lee--meaning his unwillingness to identify the mistakes in Lee's teachings--shows a lack of complete sobriety of mind.

I appreciate Canfield's boldness in calling out the Living Stream Publishers for their errors. But he needs to see, admit and take time to point out that Witness Lee made some whoppers as well, otherwise he is doing a disservice to the Body of Christ. Blaming all the problems of "the Recovery" on Living Stream is not the answer. Lee needs to be held accountable as well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I appreciate the touch where, in About, clicking on the link of "What We Believe" brings up a picture of the Bible. Well done!

At the same time, though I respect Canfield's earnestness in standing for what he believes, his seeming wholesale support of the writings of Witness Lee--meaning his unwillingness to identify the mistakes in Lee's teachings--shows a lack of complete sobriety of mind.

I appreciate Canfield's boldness in calling out the Living Stream Publishers for their errors. But he needs to see, admit and take time to point out that Witness Lee made some whoppers as well, otherwise he is doing a disservice to the Body of Christ. Blaming all the problems of "the Recovery" on Living Stream is not the answer. Lee needs to be held accountable as well.

Canfield has been well-trained in the "Good Lee-Bad Blended" school of thought. Titus Chu and the Chicago leaders drilled this for many years.

Apparently he has not been listening to anything we have said.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Canfield has been well-trained in the "Good Lee-Bad Blended" school of thought. Titus Chu and the Chicago leaders drilled this for many years.

Apparently he has not been listening to anything we have said.

Perhaps Canfield still views Lee as some kind of Minister of the Age, and that God will somehow bless those who only speak well of him even to the point of ignoring his errors.

Such a mindset is definitely not sober. No one is beyond criticism. And certainly we should not honor the authority of deceased former leaders. How can God correct our course if we take such an attitude?!

Come out of the fog, LCers. God wants to correct your errors and bring you along. Let Him!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Perhaps Canfield still views Lee as some kind of Minister of the Age, and that God will somehow bless those who only speak well of him even to the point of ignoring his errors.

Such mindset is definitely not sober. No one is beyond criticism. And certainly we should not honor the authority of deceased former leaders. How can God correct our course if we take such an attitude?!

Come out of the fog, LCers. God wants to correct your errors and bring you along. Let Him!

When it comes to the Blended's errors, Canfield is knowledgeable. But to really understand the LC system, one must become aware of how Witness Lee handled unrighteousness in his ministry, and then mistreated those who spoke their conscience as whistle-blowers.

It's kind of like the recent case of Edward Snowden blowing the whistle on the NSA. Here's a guy who broke the law by informing us how the authorities were breaking worse laws, ones designed to protect us against government tyranny. So ... who is right?



Loyal LSM'ers felt that those (like John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, etc.) who spoke out against ministry abuses broke the higher law by violating the principles of deputy authority, citing the failures of O.T. authorities like Noah and Moses. LSM'ers feel the oneness of the body was damaged, and divisions were brought in, to them this is the "unforgiveable sin."

Those aligned with spokesmen like Ingalls et. al. reject this assumed deputy (almost Papal) authority at LSM. They feel that righteousness is the higher law, and that covering up serious sins would rob us of the blessings of God and bring in His judgment. If, as the Lord has told us, that the whole law can be summarized as loving God and loving our neighbor, then the higher law concerns how this ministry has unrighteously abused so many members.

[Cal]

It's one thing to respect authority in one's church or flock. It's another to take that so far as to not even be able to learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before.

The LSM/LC mindset is wrong because it resists the correction of God and locks in error. Canfield cannot learn from the mistakes of Witness Lee because he will not allow himself to acknowledge them. Thus those he ministers to will be led astray.

This is the fruit of extreme teaching of authority, submission and unity. Like all doctrines of demons it takes something good and perverts it by going to an extreme.

If forgoing marriage for the gospel is good, then forbidding to marry must be better! If respecting and listening to leaders is good, then treating them as if they are practically flawless must be better!

No, it isn't. Just check the fruit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's one thing to respect authority in one's church or flock. It's another to take that so far as to not even be able to learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before.

The LSM/LC mindset is wrong because it resists the correction of God and locks in error. Canfield cannot learn from the mistakes of Witness Lee because he will not allow himself to acknowledge them. Thus those he ministers to will be led astray.

This is the fruit of extreme teaching of authority, submission and unity. Like all doctrines of demons it takes something good and perverts it by going to an extreme.

If forgoing marriage for the gospel is good, then forbidding to marry must be better! If respecting and listening to leaders is good, then treating them as if they are practically flawless must be better!

No, it isn't. Just check the fruit.

All are great points, Igzy.

Imagine my shock as a new believer happening upon these verses in Paul's first letter to Timothy ...

But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving: for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer.

Having grown up in the Catholic Church, with my namesake a Catholic Franciscan priest OFM, I just could not believe that the Bible so specifically stated that to forbid marriage was a doctrine of demons from a seducing spirit through the hypocrisy of men branded in their conscience! There it is in black and white folks! Not only that, it was spoken by the great Apostle Paul, who supposedly established celibacy for the servants of God. And I have not started to talk about the custom of not eating meat on Friday which is a mortal sin ...

The parallels between the Roman Catholics, the exclusive brethren, and the Recovery LC's become all too obvious once an individual steps away and examines these programs in the light of scripture. In each of these systems, errors worsened over time because of the excessive authority granted to their leaders. At first these deviations are merely nuances over interpretations of scripture, and eventually they grow to become blatant violations of the clear commands of scripture. Those within these systems, however, just can't see this because their teachings, in the guise of "proper interpretation" are designed to conceal from them the actual word of God.

[Cal]

I'll go a step farther, Ohio. I think it is, to some extent, just a garden-variety pride issue. These people just don't want to admit they were wrong. They don't want to admit they were dupes. They don't want to admit they were too gullible to perform their due diligence. So they continue to act as if Lee was generally blameless.

They've mistaken reckless credulity for purity. It's embarrassing. So they are sticking to their story no matter what.

[Cal]

After all, all sins, in the end, boil down to pride.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'll go a step farther, Ohio. I think it is, to some extent, just a garden-variety pride issue. These people just don't want to admit they were wrong. They don't want to admit they were dupes. They don't want to admit they were too gullible to perform their due diligence. So they continue to act as if Lee was generally blameless.

Actually in addition to those who are too proud to admit to their own gullibility IMHO there are several other "categories" of people who remain in the various versions of the LC and accept whatever the elders and coworkers dish up. Here are a few and I'm sure there are many more:

1. Those who know the "hidden history" but sincerely believe it should be covered up and ignored based on the Noah/Ham etc teachings. They mostly live in fear of leaving "the church" or "speaking against the authority".

2. Those who heard a little something but quickly put their heads in the sand so they could remain blissfully ignorant a/k/a Pollyannas.

3. Those who know the truth both historically and biblically but basically do a cost/benefit analysis e.g. "All churches are imperfect. If I leave the LC I will lose my friends and have to make the effort to find another imperfect church and make new friends etc. Why bother? I'll just stay here. I'm comfortable here. It's what I know."

4. Those who know the truth and are OK with it being exposed but are still loyal to the LC because it is the only church e.g. Roman Catholics who know about the priests molesting kids but still remain faithful to the RC.

5. Those who know the truth but will experience some material loss e.g. a 45 year old fulltimer who's income and housing will disappear if they speak out. "What will I do at my age? Who would hire me? How will I feed my family?"

6. Those who are truly ignorant and think the LC is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

http://www.thechristianfaith.org/page-gfs-pamphlet.htm
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I'm surprised that UntoHim has posted this piece, since he has in the past expressed his annoyance with certain ones who only use his forum as a bulletin board to post their writings.

Canfield has never come on board here to respond to any of our concerns.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm surprised that UntoHim has posted this piece, since he has in the past expressed his annoyance with certain ones who only use his forum as a bulletin board to post their writings.

Canfield has never come on board here to respond to any of our concerns.

Actually I received an email with a link to this work. I simply posted the link without comment. Canfield did not ask me (or anyone else as far as I know) to post the link on the forum. If you feel that it does not belong here then let Igzy know and I'm sure he will consider removing it.