Paradise was taken to heaven

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In his book "The Way for a Christian to Mature in Life", Witness Lee taught that Paradise is still in Hades and saints who die do not go to heaven but instead go to the same place as Lazarus as described in Luke 16. This belief is still held by those meeting in the local churches associated with Witness Lee.

However many evangelical Christians believe that paradise was taken up to heaven after Jesus died and rose and earned the right to obtain the keys to death and Hades (Revelation 1:18). I believe they have a strong biblical basis for this belief and that it is not out of ignorance.

In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: Paul describes being "caught up to the third heaven" and hearing things in "paradise."

The third heaven is understood as God's dwelling place. If paradise is located in the third heaven, it suggests that it is now part of heaven.

If the resting place of the dead believers was in heaven, then clearly there would be no need to be resurrected.

2 Corinthians 12 speaks of being taken to both Paradise and the 3rd heaven indicating they are not the same place.

I’m still looking for that verse that says we “go to heaven” when we die. I thought it was John 3.16 but it doesn’t say that.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the resting place of the dead believers was in heaven, then clearly there would be no need to be resurrected.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What is being resurrected is the physical body and not the soul/spirit which returns to God.

Philippians 3:20-21

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body.

Here Paul notes that it is our body that is being transformed and not our soul/spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:8

"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

When we die our body stays on the earth but our spirit + soul goes to the Lord (if we are saved) or to Hades/hell if we are not saved awaiting final judgment.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I’m still looking for that verse that says we “go to heaven” when we die. I thought it was John 3.16 but it doesn’t say that.

While these exacts words are not used, the same meaning is conveyed in other verses. Muslims also use an argument like this to deny the deity of Christ by insisting that Jesus never said "I am God, worship me", however there are many verses that convey the same meaning but not in those exact words.

Philippians 1:23-24

"I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account."

Christ is in heaven sitting at the right hand of the Father. Paul desires to be with Christ where he is in heaven.

Revelation 6:9-11

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been."

The altar likely refers to the one in the heavenly temple and the setting based on the prior chapter in Revelation 5 is in the throne of God in heaven. Hence the souls of the martyrs who have died are seen in the presence of God in heaven.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

2 Corinthians 12 speaks of being taken to both Paradise and the 3rd heaven indicating they are not the same place.

I would agree with you that they are not the same place, much like how the state of Ohio and the United States are not identical; however, one exists within the other.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (ESV)
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."

Paul was caught "up" to both the third heaven and "up" to paradise, suggesting they are in the same realm above, not below.

If paradise were still located in Hades, Paul would have gone "down" rather than "up."

Scripture consistently describes Hades as below, whereas the third heaven and paradise here are clearly depicted as above.

Matthew 12:40:
"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Isaiah 14:9
"Sheol below is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations."

Ezekiel 31:16
"I made the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the pit.

Numbers 16:33
So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I would agree with you that they are not the same place, much like how the state of Ohio and the United States are not identical; however, one exists within the other.

Paul was caught "up" to both the third heaven and "up" to paradise, suggesting they are in the same realm above, not below.

If paradise were still located in Hades, Paul would have gone "down" rather than "up."

Scripture consistently describes Hades as below, whereas the third heaven and paradise here are clearly depicted as above.

There is no "up" or "down" in the actual translation of this Greek word "HARPAZO" in 2 Cor 12:2,4. Harpazo is also used in Acts 8.39 where Philip was "caught away." The only direction that can be inferred from this Greek word is "away."

"Harpazo" in I Thess 4.17 generally refers to the Rapture, and can be properly translated "caught up" because the verse actually states "in the clouds in a meeting with the Lord in the air." 2 Cor 12.4, however, provides no other description of destination other than "away into paradise."

bearbear, your metaphor of "the state of Ohio and the United States are not identical; however, one exists within the other," actually can apply to Paradise and Hades not being identical, but one within the other. Luke's Gospel and Acts clearly locate Paradise within Hades. Luke 23.43 placed Jesus in Paradise with the believing Thief, whereas Acts 2.27, 31 says "the Christ was not left in Hades."

Returning to your example, Hades would be likened to the country USA, whereas Paradise would be the state of Ohio. Paradise, called the "Bosom of Abraham," the blessed section of Hades, where all the justified believers are resting under the earth, and Hades being the general resting place for all the dead under the earth.

Note that Rev 5.13 identifies those under the earth praising the resurrected Lamb of God. The Fifth Seal in Rev 7.9 locates the praying Martyrs "under the altar" of the earth crying out for justice.