The Not-So Practical Expression of the Church

[OBW]

Don,

I would commend the early followers for their purity in intent. I further do not condemn all of the LC for where the doctrine that slowly surfaced took those early practices. It was a subtle thing.

But with some of the history going back to Taiwan that we now have available, I believe that the practice and belief of the 60s was not the whole of Lee’s teaching. He introduced his doctrine in stages. Remember the discussion of that first meeting in Dallas in your living room? I recall from an earlier thread (probably on the BARM or possibly in your book) that while you did not understand the rush, someone thought you and George should hurry up and have that first meeting. It is now clear that someone felt that oneness was not enough. It took Lee’s version of oneness and not one of the others that that were about to do the same.

If they practiced in such a manner that the LC as you knew it then could not meet simultaneously with their group, then that speaks loudly of one or two other groups that technically followed the same one church in a city doctrine. And Lee knew that he could not set up his own group there without violating his own doctrine. But if you have to beat the others there, then there is something more than just the “ground” that is important to your meeting. It must not be acceptable to be in their group rather than in your own group.

In effect, there were sects that grew out of Nee’s teachings. The LC was but one. You did not know this. George probably did not either. But Lee and possibly some others did. There was already sectarianism buried underneath the “ground of oneness” that was taught. It would only truly surface over time.

It eventually drove you away. We can thank God for that.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Hope

Thus whenever "the ground of locality" comes up stand back for there is going to be plenty of action.

Don,

Yes, but what is a Local Church discussion forum without a spirited discussion of the "local ground?"

Originally Posted by OBW

But if you have to beat the others there, then there is something more than just the “ground” that is important to your meeting. It must not be acceptable to be in their group rather than in your own group.

In effect, there were sects that grew out of Nee’s teachings.

Mike,

I've thought for a while that the local ground teaching is as much a tool to discredit all other groups as it is one to validate the LC. Any group that does not hold to the teaching becomes "easy pickin's" for LC refutal. They've shot 'em down for years with smirks on their faces.

The problem comes in when another group claims to be the city-church in a city in which an LC church resides. How can anyone know for sure in this case which is the true city-church?? Outside of blatant evidences, no one can. But the LC churches choose to either ignore or discredit these groups, a blatant contradiction of what they claim to believe. This basically torpedoes the whole church model which the LC has been following for the last 30 or more years. This is what I've been trying to show in this thread.

Oh, they've come up with all kinds of peripheral self-validations, mostly unscriptural or mis-scriptural. "We are in 'God's Economy'" (as if no one else is). "We have fellowship with other churches" (as if no one else does). "We are one with God's up-to-date ministry" (how can you possibly know that? besides, it's irrelevant.).

What's interesting about the above LC arguments is that they are all about self-promotion. They've got nothing to do with fulfilling the mission of the church, but rather are about defending their turf and lifting themselves up. They are about saying they are something no one else is. Why is that so important to them? It's juvenile. My seven-year-old is in that stage now. He always has to be first. Hopefully, by age ten, he'll have outgrown that.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by OBW

Don,

I would commend the early followers for their purity in intent. I further do not condemn all of the LC for where the doctrine that slowly surfaced took those early practices. It was a subtle thing.

Remember the discussion of that first meeting in [/FONT]Dallas in your living room? I recall from an earlier thread (probably on the BARM or possibly in your book) that while you did not understand the rush, someone thought you and George should hurry up and have that first meeting. It is now clear that someone felt that oneness was not enough. It took Lee’s version of oneness and not one of the others that that were about to do the same.

In effect, there were sects that grew out of Nee’s teachings. The LC was but one. You did not know this. George probably did not either. But Lee and possibly some others did. There was already sectarianism buried underneath the “ground of oneness” that was taught. It would only truly surface over time.

It eventually drove you away. We can thank God for that.

George and I were not aware of any need to rush up the meetings in Dallas in order to beat the Edwards fellowship. I seem to recall something on the Barm, perhaps from Thankful, about someone in Houston announcing our desire to begin to have the Lord's table. Maybe someone in Dallas added that to make the story more exciting. Folklore is like that.

I later came to realize that there was competition between the various disciples of WN and that this had lead to division in various places. Thus you over riding point is valid. Again, it goes back to this thing called "the Work." It spawned competition like that in the early days of Corinth.

Yes, you are right. The sectarian practice in the name of "oneness" drove me away and it still causes my spirit to grieve and I am angry and I trust I sin not in this matter.

In Christ Jesus,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Cal]

Hope,

I have a question. Aren't you leading a city-church in North Carolina? Isn't there an LSM city-church there, too?

If so, what do you feel your standing (to use an old LC term) is in relation to that LSM church? How do they feel about you? Do you feel that other Christians are at odds with the city-church because they do not meet with you? What is your attitude about the legitimacy of other groups in the city?

Thanks,

Igzy

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Hope,

I have a question. Aren't you leading a city-church in North Carolina? Isn't there an LSM city-church there, too?

If so, what do you feel your standing (to use an old LC term) is in relation to that LSM church? How do they feel about you? Do you feel that other Christians are at odds with the city-church because they do not meet with you? What is your attitude about the legitimacy of other groups in the city?

Thanks,

Igzy

Hello Brother Igzy,

I am somewhat facinated by your post. You seem to have a lot of information. I thought we were off everyone's radar screen.

There is the original church in Raleigh, where I gather, and there is the REAL, REAL LOCAL CHURCH IN RALEIGH that is ONE with THE MINISTRY, attends the seven feasts, reads the HWMR etc etc (please do not throw up.)

Those I gather with are a humble and meek little band seeking to grow in Christ and be a witness of Christ in our place. We fellowship with brothers and sisters here and all over the earth and last year at our annual business meeting I calculated the percentage of offerings that went out of Raleigh to be 85% of the total. Only those in Ghana would be considered to be meeting in a similar way to us.

As for other Christians in our area, we do not have an agenda to recruit them. We do seek to have fellowship if possible. A couple of examples: We have used the baptistry at the Korean Baptist church. One of the deacons there is a dear friend of mine. If you met him and his wife, you would be edified just by being in their presence. On August 9th, we have invited a So. Baptist Missionary couple to speak to the assembly. We assist a good works mission locally that cares for refugees from Nepal. When we learn of a gifted saint who could supply us with a portion where we are lacking, we seek to open a door for that saint to help us if they are willing. We have met some pretty amazing saints of God. Also, I cannot recall stinging renounciations of poor poor christianity.

All that said, while we pray that our love may abound more and more, we also desire that this love would be in real knowledge and all discernment, Phil 1:9. You can have discernment without becoming a "judgaholic." (That is a word I learned on the Barm. I not sure of the spelling.)

The other group is very hateful and spiteful. Can you blame them? We are lepors, rebels, divisive, seeking to build our own kingdom, destroyers of God's building da da, da da. Plus they could not get our property. That kind of verbal attack use to be a hurtful bother but we are learning to pray for them when they are brought to our attention. Mostly we no longer think about them, the LSM or the past. Ocassionaly we cross their path and they are our dear brothers and sisters and we greet them in the Lord and wish them well. The Lord has helped us to "move on." The future is too bright. Our times are in His hands.

As far as "leading", I have some influence due to age, experience and perhaps gift and hopefully some spiritual maturity. Our church life, especially leadership, is in many ways quite different from the LSM style. Who so ever will may gather on Saturday morning to pray and fellowship regarding the direction and needs in the assembly, old or young, brother or sister.
It is very important that the leading ones know what everyone's feeling and burden is and that the Lord can speak through whoever he choses. (I can see the raised eyebrows out there in forum land.) But it is really quite wonderful and we come together every week with great anticipation. What will the Lord do today? How is He caring for us right now?

Perhaps this is enough to answer your questions. Needless to say we have needed to learn and unlearn a lot over the past few years. Please hold us in your prayers.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Hope

I thought we were off everyone's radar screen.

Wow.

Wow. Wow. Wow.

Praise the Lord!

Wow.

Hallelujah!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

As far as "leading", I have some influence due to age, experience and perhaps gift and hopefully some spiritual maturity. Our church life, especially leadership, is in many ways quite different from the LSM style.

Since we have accomodated Igzy's hypothetical 'two groups in one city' scenario to illuminate the not-so-practical LSM model, please allow me to spin a hypothetical for you all. This hypothetical is for me quite real, and I use it occasionally as I see fit.

In my scenario, I imagine myself caught by Christ from out of a storm-tossed sea. I am pulled "into Him", out from the dark and turbulent world. Suddenly I know peace, and rapturous joy, and God's amazing love. Lo and behold, as I look around, marveling my good fortune, I realize there are others in the boat with me, likewise marvellously saved. We congratulate each other on our happy fate, and endeavor to sail together in our marvelous "lifeboat", back home to our heavenly Father. We realize we are saved individually, but into a corporate experience. I am part of the "lifeboat experience" for others, as they are to me.

Now, who sails this thing? When do we steer left (port) or right (starboard)? When do we let sails down, or up? Who takes the midnight watch? Who watches and doles out our precious rations? And so on, ad infinitum. You can see it almost immediately in Acts chapter 6: who's going to wait on tables, who's going to labor in and minister the Word?

Although I am opinionated and full of ideas on "how things ought to be", I am not so dull and insipid that I don't realize it would behoove me to listen to those who were in the boat before me. They have seen a few clamber in and fall back out; maybe they stumbled a time or two themselves. I have two choices: either I can learn the hard lessons of experience, or I can learn from those who have gone before. I think the second way, learning from others, is much more profitable. More benefit, less cost.

So I pay attention to the "old salts", and imitate what they do. And two very amazing things happen. First, as I "Monkey-see, Monkey-do" the old-timers, aping their speaking, praying, singing, declaring, amenning, and so forth, the Holy Spirit comes alongside. I suddenly feel the Paraclete's 'parousia', a presence so precious and holy and strong and irresistable that I will spend the rest of my life like John and Peter, remembering when "His glory broke upon me" that day on the holy mountain. And second, as I continue to pattern my behavior in some approximation of the 'leading ones', and I continue on the boat for a league or two, lo and behold some others clamber on board and start to look at me with interest, what I am doing. they look at 'little aron' and consider if this is, in fact, the way home to the Father. It is a humbling thing to model Christ for others. Little aron starts to get a wee bit of the 'gravitas' that he has seen in the elders who came before.

Lastly, and not entirely unrelated, is the idea that the word "kurios" in Greek can be translated as "Master", the word we usually translate to "Lord" in English. Jesus was not "bossy" of others; He was meek and humble. He emptied Himself; he became as nothing. But He was indeed the "Master". He was the Expert, the Pro; He mastered "self", He mastered "pride", He mastered fear and anxiety and jealousy and resentments and all the vain human emotions that rule the rest of us. He mastered the vessel which God the Father had poured Him into. And we who call Him "Lord" would be wise to imitate Him, and endeavor not to master others, but to master our own vessels, and likewise follow Him into the reward of eternal glory.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello Brother Igzy,

I am somewhat facinated by your post. You seem to have a lot of information. I thought we were off everyone's radar screen.

There is the original church in Raleigh, where I gather, and there is the REAL, REAL LOCAL CHURCH IN RALEIGH that is ONE with THE MINISTRY, attends the seven feasts, reads the HWMR etc etc (please do not throw up.)

Don,

As a youngster I used to sit on the front row in Texas and listen to you speak. We guys always had a good time recounting your messages because of your great sense of humor. So when your name has come up in this unfolding drama of the LC movement I've always been interested in how things are going with you. We didn't know each other personally, but we exchanged pleasantries. You asked me a question in a meeting once, but I wasn't a very good subject because I just froze up. That was a long time ago. I was just a kid and you were an ELDER. Ha, ha. The funny thing is that back in the 70s, even all the elders were kids, really.

I'm thankful that things are going well for you, both personally and with the Lord. You story is inspiring and encouraging.

Igzy

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don,

As a youngster I used to sit on the front row in Texas and listen to you speak. We guys always had a good time recounting your messages because of your great sense of humor. So when your name has come up in this unfolding drama of the LC movement I've always been interested in how things are going with you. We didn't know each other personally, but we exchanged pleasantries. You asked me a question in a meeting once, but I wasn't a very good subject because I just froze up. That was a long time ago. I was just a kid and you were an ELDER. Ha, ha. The funny thing is that back in the 70s, even all the elders were kids, really.

I'm thankful that things are going well for you, both personally and with the Lord. You story is inspiring and encouraging.

Igzy

Dear Brother Igzy,

Thanks for the personal note. I am thrilled when saints from the 70s pop up. I have enjoyed OBW aka Mike H. and Timothiest and Nell and Matt and Thankful Jane and Searching. These I have been able to ID or they have identified themselves to me. You made me laugh when you characterized my speaking as having humor. Really I never tried to be funny. It just came out as I talked with you all. You kids were a big component of my joy.

You are correct that all the "elders" were themselves a bunch of kids and were most of the time way over their heads. I sure felt that way. The Lord had much mercy to keep me and others from making even a bigger mess.

Anyway your posting is special to me. Perhaps some of the teenagers did get something of Christ. My favorite time was the Junior High and High School conferences. Recently I met a brother from those days. He told me that he still has his song book and outlines from those times.

By the way, OBW was a high schooler when I first met him. He is quite the theologian and scholar today. I am just encouraged whenever he posts. Timothiest needs to post some more. I felt like turning a back flip when he PMed me and told me who he was.

It has been great having correspondence with Nell, on the blog and through the PM system. The Lord is faithful to us all. What can you say but hallelujah?

Searching is a precious sister to the Lord and to the Body of Christ. She is having some trials as she has shared on the other forum but I believe she will come through solid gold.

For a long time while I was still in the lc in Texas and then after I moved, I really did not know what had become of Thankful Jane and her wonderful husband. I never knew about her experiences with BP etc until years later. I am trully amazed that they have come through all of the fire and still are seeking to know more of Christ and to be faithful to His dear call.

Matt happened to be passing through my area a few weeks ago and asked to get together. What special fellowship we enjoyed!! He is a real man of Christ. What a privelege to be able to spend an hour or two with him.

Igzy, thanks for the kind words and for your portion of Christ and willingness to share with us.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Hope

George and I were not aware of any need to rush up the meetings in Dallas in order to beat the Edwards fellowship. I seem to recall something on the Barm...

As I said, I only recalled something giving the impression that some time-table had been moved up. It may be something of folklore. I couldn't say. But I got that impression from somewhere within the last two months and had never had that notion previously.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by OBW

As I said, I only recalled something giving the impression that some time-table had been moved up. It may be something of folklore. I couldn't say. But I got that impression from somewhere within the last two months and had never had that notion previously.

We from Houston had no time table or were in a rush except for the families who had children in school. I did mention in my book that there seemed to be a race for Dallas. Actually it was from the other folks. I did not get into the details of how we found out. We had visited the couples who were with Gene Edwards several times. We had shared that some from Houston felt the Lord was calling them to move to Dallas. Nothing was hidden from anyone. We assumed we would all join together. The other two couples had become more and more distant toward us as we made trips to the area and began to look for housing. Once we dropped in on one couple on a Saturday morning. They were expecting us but we got there a little early. The wife let us in the apartment and the two brothers there sure acted funny. One of the Houston brothers whose initials are BB noticed a letter and envelop laying on the carpet behind the chair where he was sitting. It caught his attention. It was from Gene Edwards and the two or three sentences he read referred to his moving to Dallas and something about being there before the Houston group would be established. He handed the letter to the host brother who was very red faced. Turns out they then told us they had been corresponding with Edwards regarding their desire to practice the local church life and his moving there to head up the effort. Only thing, they had failed to tell any of us about their plan. It seems their plan was to get Edwards and a few others there and declare they were the church in Dallas. Sounds like something that did develop under the LSM.

This race to be first was something none of us from Houston had been aware of. WL never urged me to move quickly in anyway. I spoke with him and corresponded with him during the summer. George W. did not get to Dallas until the late summer - early fall and was in no race to get to Dallas for the whole summer. I moved there in July. I do not remember when the first Lord's Table was as to me it was no big stake in the ground but a very normal occurance.

Edwards never came and the couples moved away. The whole episode was very confusing.

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Shawn]

Greetings All,

It would seem to prove the statement, "the less you try to focus on "one church, one city" the more it can become a reality!"

I am learning from this series of posts not to be too dogmatic about this, only to love the saints and seek fellowship, the rest is up to the Lord!

Thank you brother Don for a little window into the practical ministry of your community, it warmed my heart to hear of your love and concern for each other! May our Lord continue to cause you all to grow in love and discernment as you seek Him!

Your brother,

Shawn

[KSA]

Some posts from here were moved to the thread "spirit, soul and body".