Andy Anderson on the "Overcomers"

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

Well, I argue that this "going on" is about people, specifically your neighbor. How you treat the person next to you is how you treat God, and how you treat others is how God will treat you. And while it's to some degree measured by what we might call "the body of work", i.e. the totality of your actions, it's more importantly determined by how you are treating people right now, at this moment. This determines whether you are, in fact, "going forward" or "going backward". You are either moving toward or away from the proverbial "finish line" or "promised rest" or what-have-you depending on your relations with others.

I just got around to reading this post of aron's, and I'd recommend everyone read it. It's short, to the point and readable (); and in its own way it sums up what's wrong with the LRC system--that is that the LRC system is not about people, it's about the system.

A while back it dawned on me that everything in God's reality is about relationships--either our relationship with God or others or ourselves. That's all there is. Everything is about God and people and how we feel and think about them and treat them.

I recall a few years back bringing up this matter of relationship, arguing that Lee's view of the Trinity almost totally misses that the principle of relationship is built into the Triune God. One borderline LCer (SC) got indignant and more or less scoffed at the idea of relationship, considering it shallow, touchy-feely and marginal.

That's the Lee effect. Minimizing relationship. But when you minimize relationship, you minimize people. When you minimize people, they becomes means to an end. They become fodder for the cause. That not only misses the point of everything, it stands in opposition to it. It shows you have no clue what God is about and what is truly important to him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

... and in its own way it sums up what's wrong with the LRC system--that is that the LRC system is not about people, it's about the system.

That's the Lee effect. Minimizing relationship. But when you minimize relationship, you minimize people. When you minimize people, they becomes means to an end. They become fodder for the cause. That not only misses the point of everything, it stands in opposition to it. It shows you have no clue what God is about and what is truly important to him.

And I would just add that it's not just "all about the system," but it's all about the ones in charge of the system. It's all about how is your relationship with them. The system, whether referred to as "the church, or the body, or God's move, or His purpose, or the Recovery, or God's New Testament Economy," or any of a whole host of "smokescreens" to hide their real intentions, simply builds edifices to the one on top.

I witnessed both WL and TC doing this. They demanded the utmost loyalty and zealotry to their system which was actually to themselves. Both used the churches and the saints to build their empires. Workers and elders only served at their pleasure. Those who attempted to follow the Lord directly, serving His people, were beat into submission, because the highest priority was not your relationship with Him, but with him. The biggest threat to their empires was not sin or worldliness, but a certain required independence by church leaders in following their Lord directly. Thus the LC's became "of Lee" or "of Titus."

This is why both of these brothers became so abusive towards other brothers. They could never share "their glory." The saints' relationships with their elders, or their church, or the one next to them, were also bonds which needed to be broken in order to maintain the ultimate relationship of all, codenamed "one with the ministry." One would never know this by their teachings, however. Kind of like my maxim about politicians: pay little attention to what they say, rather to what they do.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And I would just add that it's not just "all about the system," but it's all about the ones in charge of the system. It's all about how is your relationship with them. The system, whether referred to as "the church, or the body, or God's move, or His purpose, or the Recovery, or God's New Testament Economy," or any of a whole host of "smokescreens" to hide their real intentions, simply builds edifices to the one on top.I witnessed both WL and TC doing this. They demanded the utmost loyalty and zealotry to their system which was actually to themselves.

But when the principals have left the scene, the "system" remains. I believe that behind people like WL & TC, who seem to be manipulating the system, variously called "The church, the body, God's move, His purpose, the ministry, the recovery, the local churches", are spiritual forces which need to be unmasked, identified. Jesus asked, "Who are you?", and they didn't want to say. "Oh, there's a bunch of us in here."

These forces don't like to come to the light. They would love for us to vilify the vessel whom they have captured for their ends, and ignore them. Then they can continue their work. But Paul said, "We do not fight against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces in the heavenlies" which are opposed to God's rule.

Both used the churches and the saints to build their empires. the highest priority was not your relationship with [the Lord]... The biggest threat to their empires was not sin or worldliness, but a certain required independence by church leaders in following their Lord directly. Thus the LC's became "of Lee" or "of Titus."

Again, note that once the principals have left the scene, the empire remains. Seemingly in other hands, but still under the control of arguably the same spiritual forces. So they seemed to be "of Lee" or "of Titus", but really Lee and Titus were "of" something else, which needs to be unmasked.

The saints' relationships with their elders, or their church, or the one next to them, were also bonds which needed to be broken in order to maintain the ultimate relationship of all, codenamed "one with the ministry." One would never know this by their teachings, however. Kind of like my maxim about politicians: pay little attention to what they say, rather to what they do.

Every election cycle, politicians suddenly become concerned for "America". The rest of the time, however, they are primarily concerned with themselves. So every two or four years they roll up their shirtsleeves and stand in front of a giant American Flag, point toward the crowd and earnestly read from a teleprompter, and it means nothing except that they want to attract voters. But behind this election cycle is the continued acquisition of power and money, which goes on unabated. The actors pace the stage, one by one, and then leave, but the stage, i.e. the system, remains. The system seems to be manipulated by people, because it does indeed reward them (temporarily) with wealth and power and influence. But really the people don't manipulate the system, but system manipulates the people. It sucks them dry and discards them.

The only one who made it through alive was/is Jesus. The rest: "The work, the ministry, the move of God, the churches, the body" are, as Ohio said, a smokescreen for this system of human manipulation and control. And all the subsidiaries, variously named "Christians on Campus", Bibles for America", "Affirmation and Critique", "Full-Time Training", "Defense and Confirmation Project", and so on, are further smokescreens to disguise the system.

To me it is simple: God wants "the freedom of the sons of God" to be restored (Rom. 8:21; see also Matt. 17:26; Gal. 5:1). Satan doesn't want that, because it spells his end. So he disguises himself as an angel of light, and distracts the elect with systems of control, and reward/punishment. As I have said earlier, I understand "this is the way the world works". But I don't think this is the way the kingdom of God works. Instead of a "top-down" system, Jesus declared a "bottom-up" system.