What about the Children?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

My point is, a culture was created by Lee - a very unique culture that purposely set itself apart from Christianity and all other Christians. What I want to explore in this thread, is what has that done to the children raised in that culture?

Thank you all for your input, but if I may I want to make this statement above the purpose of this thread. I think this requires a taking a different view of the movement we've left (or remained in, for those who visit here and still remain). My purpose in mentioning home school was not to cast aspersion on that practice - but to point out that one of LSM's characteristics in dealing with their children is isolationism - Isolating their children from non-members, in order to avoid possible "contamination" (not a word they might use - but the word does well convey their idea, I think). I believe this was even mentioned here on another thread, where someone shared that a sister had asked him if he wasn't worried about his kids being influenced by Christianity when he sent them to a Baptist school.

My real motivation in wanting to explore this, is to try to work together to figure out if we even can reach the generation of people who were raised from birth in LSM-loyal homes. People who grew up with a skewed view of Christianity - colored by all the slander cast at all of it by Lee. How can these ones be reached if, when they look outside their 'Local Church' for fellowship, they see a kind of worship or service or prayer or structure that looks NOTHING like what they've be raised to view as the only way? Something they've been raised to view as corrupt.

It's been said here that LSM has become just another denomination... but that doesn't do the true situation justice at all. Let me give you a few "fer-instances":

Ferinstance 1: Here in Three Hills, we have a Ministerial. All the Pastors in town, and the Priests (we have Catholics and Anglicans here as well as non-denominational Evangelical churches, Baptists, United church adherents, etc.) get together and have fellowship. These people all work together. Do they have differences in doctrine? Undoubtedly they do - but that doesn't hinder their fellowship or their ability to pray together and work together. In fact, we had a large inter-church service for the town's hundredth anniversary, and four of the Pastors worked together through the service, and let a visiting Anglican Bishop deliver the sermon (as it was also the local Anglican churches 100th anniversary, and the Pastors and Priests in town wanted to honor that).

Ferinstance 2: Our local Prairie Bible College takes students of ALL denoms (or non-denoms) and trains them up. Yes, all from local congregations and well beyond... there is no 'denom' restrictions. Nor is there extensive proselytizing to convert any student to any particular doctrine. "In the essentials, unity - in the non essentials, liberty." That said, all students have to take introductory Bible classes (I took one) - and we are all given the opportunity to explore Scripture ourselves. You might guess that I was prone to writing long essays rather than short answers on many of my tests - and I differed with authors and teachers from time to time in my interpretations, and was never penalized for it, so long as my exposition was thorough.

Final Ferinstance: At our church - the Alliance church in town - we have families who have children who go to other churches. This isn't frowned upon, nor does it cause distress. If the children of members grow up and choose to go to a church a few blocks down the street - well, if they are being read the Word of God and if they are growing in their faith, then Praise the Lord - He has a place for them! This is common here. My wife attends inter-church Bible studies, and we fellowship with other Christians. We have, I believe, a Normal Christian Church Life (copyright Watchman Nee).

Not so in Lee's church.

In Lee's church, there is no such thing as fellowship with other Christians (unless they come to the LC). There is no such thing as it being ok to have a different doctrine or understanding from the interpretation provided by Lee - EVEN in the non-essentials. Nor is it ever ok to go to "another church", and certainly not to ever listen to someone who calls himself a Pastor. That's just "Nicolaitian" and an abomination to God, so they might say. Now, you may not hear this expounded in a meeting, but I know whenever I tried to share something I heard and appreciated from outside of LSM, it wasn't generally received well. There were many things I sent and wrote to the brother I was closest to in the church - the very one who introduced me - that he never read at all (I found this out only a couple of years later). When I asked him about it, he confessed that he wouldn't read any of those things because they didn't "give him life". They "might have some life, but there's so much leaven." He was born in the LC.

LSM is not a denomination: While denominational walls are coming down around the globe - and Christians of many different walks are fellowshipping together - LSM's walls are being built higher, and all fo rthe purpose keeping their people in, rather than to keep others out.

Okay, that's too long a post. My question: HOW can we reach those born and raised LSM kids?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

My purpose in mentioning home school was not to cast aspersion on that practice - but to point out that one of LSM's characteristics in dealing with their children is isolationism ...

I think all good parents attempt to "isolate" their children from the evils of this age, as the Lord taught us to pray, "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

One of the pernicious ways of exclusive systems such as Lee's is to identify outside Christians -- genuine, bona fide, blood-washed, born-again evangelical brothers and sisters -- as the enemy. Oh sure, they sometimes used phrases such as "love them, but hate the system," but they purposely blur the lines. On the other hand, I also heard WL talk about "missiles" and "bombs," in the form of high truth tracts, which were to be launched at poor, poor Christianity. Who was the target? Not some nebulous mist called "system," but the very people who composed Christianity -- our very own brothers and sisters.

In a nutshell -- those in the Recovery really don't know who their enemy is! In the city I once migrated to in order to help start a new church, brothers sued brothers in court over possession of the meeting hall, thinking they were being loyal to the ministry of Witness Lee! What does that tell you?

In such a context, what is the result on our children? Does anyone out there realize that the best parents in the Recovery always tried to shield their children from the Recovery itself! They knew that the Recovery itself was almost more dangerous than the world! How does one teach his kids that we are the fulfillment of Philadelphia, the church of brotherly love, yet have the children witness abuse, in-fighting, back-biting, public ridiculing, lawsuits, etc. It is so true that children pay attention more to what you do, than to what you say.

Just the other day, my wife was telling me about a couple she knew who always broke the training rules for their kids sake. While in Anaheim for the trainings, trainees were not allowed to go to Disneyland, the beach, shopping, sight-seeing, play sports, etc. yet they could not keep these rules and be good parents. WL and the trainers loved to make rules that only they could keep. My dear wife now regrets how often she was such a loyal "rule-keeper" at the expense of her children. Me too.

One of the best ways to help our children is to break down the walls surrounding the Recovery, and to connect them with the greater body of Christ. This will help deliver them from arrogant pride, thinking they have something they do not, and thinking that others have nothing which they really do.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In a nutshell -- Does anyone out there realize that the best parents in the Recovery always tried to shield their children from the Recovery itself!


that the Recovery itself was almost more dangerous than the world......

Just the other day, my wife was telling me about a couple she knew who always broke the training rules for their kids sake.

One of the best ways to help our children is to break down the walls surrounding the Recovery, and to connect them with the greater body of Christ.

Great Post!
Aside from Phillip Lee, who was not the model Lee poster child, how many of his 8-9 kids were actively involved in the LRC? Anyone know?

While we in the LR in the 70s, did not go to movies or watch TV, those of us in San Diego on occasion went to Disneyland in small groups.

I know for a fact, when elders went on family vacations, they took their kids to movies and watched wholesome family shows on TV in their hotel rooms.

Only very select LCRs knew this.
Only one original "elder" couple in San Diego have remained loyal to the LRC, but their kids are not in the LRC...they are married with children...have their own lives.

I think when the LC elevated Lee and his ministry above GOD and His WORD, not only did God's Presence leave, but I think deep down, everyone knew they could not meet Lee's standards.

As for the LR/LC kids and how to help them???

If they have never gone to a church service, yes, take them to a church service, even a Catholic mass. Have them read a bible other than the RcV.

The "world" is all around us....talk to them about morals, "relationships" and sex counseling. I have never married or have kids of my own but have counseled my nephew and nieces when they entered puberty as they had questions.

I have no qualm with calling upon the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH a pure heart, but not the old LC "O Lord Jeeeesus".

Parents, friends, loved ones and all true followers of Christ have a responsibility to point all children LR or not to CHRIST.

We do it through prayer and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

--------------------------------------

As a side note, I have been "leading" Bible studies to my Christian "worldly" friends, one who struggles with METH...can't kick the addiction, another with "self indulgence"...I will not bother to explain THAT struggle.

Anyway, my little motley group of "worldly" Christians who were once committed to the Lord (never LCrs btw), gather every week at one of my friends house for prayer and bible study. :-D

We have a good time and while the change in their lives is slow, the fact they love coming together weekly to hear the Word if God speaks volume. To God be the Glory.

What makes it "special", is I am not an outsider. I am their life long friend. (One of the group is my childhood friend, others are her adult kids, my friend's mother..and her father when he was still living. My friend's brother...who is ministering to his wife and kids slowly but surely and is my "sidekick" when he shows up for bible study. When we are not in bible study, they squabble and then vent on me.

I do not lecture. Sometimes I get involved indirectly with their squabbles. Other times I simply listen and sometimes I make them FOCUS!!!!! ....on CHRIST.

After the venting, I always try to lead them or the person in prayer.

Pretty cool huh? If you remember, will you pray for my friend's deliverence from Meth? His name is James. His sister Yvonne, is JUST starting to return to Jesus too and is battling her messy life. They /We ALL could use some uplifting prayer
to be drawn closer to EL-SHADDAI, our Creator, our Heavenly Father, our SAVIOR & DELIVERER, our KING of kings and LORD of lords.

Thanks amigos!

Blessings to you all,
Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

If you remember, will you pray for my friend's deliverence from Meth? His name is James. His sister Yvonne, is JUST starting to return to Jesus too and is battling her messy life. They /We ALL could use some uplifting prayer
to be drawn closer to EL-SHADDAI, our Creator, our Heavenly Father, our SAVIOR & DELIVERER, our KING of kings and LORD of lords.

Thanks amigos!

Blessings to you all,
Carol G

Amen, sister Carol G! Blessings to you all in Christ Jesus!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

In Lee's church, there is no such thing as fellowship with other Christians (unless they come to the LC).

My question: HOW can we reach those born and raised LSM kids?

Let's take the home meetings for example. If you are one who meets with a local church, it's okay to invite non-local church Christians to your home meeting. For the invite to be reciprocated, no. For a local church Christian to go to a non-local church home meeting, that is unfathomable. That has been called meeting illegitimately.

Now to reach those born and raised in the local church, just accept the fact many may meet there because of tradition. Just as if they were a Baptist or a Catholic, they're used to certain practices, doctrines, etc and anything else would just take them out of their comfort zone. There's a certain structure for someone raised in the local churches where all your social relationships are driven by the local church culture.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Terry

Now to reach those born and raised in the local church, just accept the fact many may meet there because of tradition. Just as if they were a Baptist or a Catholic, they're used to certain practices, doctrines, etc and anything else would just take them out of their comfort zone. There's a certain structure for someone raised in the local churches where all your social relationships are driven by the local church culture.

I believe you're right Terry, and this being so, I am more and more convinced that there is nothing that can be done by us to awaken these ones to the Truth. In fact, I have honestly acknowledged myself, that "there but for the Grace of God go I." And I suppose therein lies the key.

I asked the question, because, my fellowship with members were primarily with second and third generation LRC'rs. I have an honest reason for wanting to find a way to reach them. But this website, valuable as it is, can't do it... they wouldn't dare come here, unless, of course, the process of questioning had already well begun in them. I tried bringing up the past history of the LC with some of them, and they wouldn't discuss at all what they knew - or even admit they knew anything, other than to say "the Lord has moved on, so should we"... or: "Does it matter what Lee was like? Even Balaam's donkey was able to speak for God" - In other words, yes, Lee was a Jack-Ass, but who cares?

Only God can restore sight to the blind, restore hearing to the deaf, and get the lame to walk. Perhaps - no - not perhaps - I definitely need to pray more for Him to soften the hearts of the brothers and sisters I've left behind.

Lord, I want to raise these ones up to you - the friends I have left behind but still love with Your Love, Lord. Especially, I want to lift up D to you. Lord, this brother prayed with me and wept with me and shared his heart with me. Lord, this brother even still contacts me, though he won't share anything personal... Lord, keep his heart soft and open. Give him the courage and conviction to ask the questions, to seek Your Holy and perfect will, and bless him Lord.. with Your Truth. In Jesus Holy name I pray...

Will you pray with me saints? For ninety days. For those we've left behind... and even for those in charge of LSM; that they might be given a heart of repentance... that the Lord might bless them too.

In Christ,

Ray

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I asked the question, because, my fellowship with members were primarily with second and third generation LRC'rs.

I hear what you're saying. It's really a fine line. If they have no concerns and no issues, I wouldn't want to say anything to stumble them nor to damage any relationships. If there are concerns, they have a spirit. They have a conscience. We only have faith the Lord will lead them on.
My question lies here, can these 2nd and third generations LRC's have fellowship apart from "the ministry"?
Is the HWFMR a requisite for fellowship to happen?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Let's take the home meetings for example. If you are one who meets with a local church, it's okay to invite non-local church Christians to your home meeting. For the invite to be reciprocated, no. For a local church Christian to go to a non-local church home meeting, that is unfathomable. That has been called meeting illegitimately.

Now to reach those born and raised in the local church, just accept the fact many may meet there because of tradition. Just as if they were a Baptist or a Catholic, they're used to certain practices, doctrines, etc and anything else would just take them out of their comfort zone. There's a certain structure for someone raised in the local churches where all your social relationships are driven by the local church culture.

This varies by locality. When I was in Odessa I went to a breakfast for local christians in a town near Odessa every Saturday. I also visited regularly with Christian groups in other cities. I also did this in Houston, but was advised to keep it quiet and not discuss it in the meetings. The only city I did not meet with other Christians was in Irving, and that was because I was working 16 hours a day on the meeting hall, six days a week.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Let's take the home meetings for example. If you are one who meets with a local church, it's okay to invite non-local church Christians to your home meeting. For the invite to be reciprocated, no. For a local church Christian to go to a non-local church home meeting, that is unfathomable. That has been called meeting illegitimately.

That is ridiculous. I did this all the time. However, I did not openly discuss this in church meetings.

Originally Posted by Terry

Now to reach those born and raised in the local church, just accept the fact many may meet there because of tradition. Just as if they were a Baptist or a Catholic, they're used to certain practices, doctrines, etc and anything else would just take them out of their comfort zone. There's a certain structure for someone raised in the local churches where all your social relationships are driven by the local church culture.

This is scary when you consider the spiritual abuse that takes place in the LRC.

"Studies have shown that envy and resentment may be motives for bullying.[19] Research on the self-esteem of bullies has produced equivocal results.[20][21] While some bullies are arrogant and narcissistic,[22] bullies can also use bullying as a tool to conceal shame or anxiety or to boost self-esteem: by demeaning others, the abuser feels empowered.[23] Bullies may bully out of jealousy or because they themselves are bullied.[24] Some have argued that a bully reflects the environment of his home, repeating the model he learned from his parents.[25]" (Taken from Wikipedia)

1. We have seen that Witness Lee was arrogant and narcissistic, which is associated with his bullying.
2. We have seen that those bullied by the likes of WL and TC also became bullies themselves as evidenced by the BBs behavior.
3. I believe a lot of the bullying that took place in the LRC was to conceal shame, or due to anxiety. They did not want anyone questioning the errors of the past. We have seen this directed at Steve Isitt, etc.
4. I believe that I have also seen bullying in the LRC as a result of jealousy.
5. But the scary one here is the last, a bully reflects the environment of the home. It seems children who grow up in the LRC may be more likely to repeat the behavior they are observing and learning in the LRC. It is a shame to think that these behaviors could be thought of as normal behavior in the church.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is ridiculous. I did this all the time. However, I did not openly discuss this in church meetings.

Interesting admission, why didn't you discuss this in church meetings?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Interesting admission, why didn't you discuss this in church meetings?

My sharing was in the form of testimonies based on the message. Many saints were not interested in discussing the gospel work on the campus unless they were involved. We did discuss these events with all involved. That was in Houston. The brother who took the lead to bring the gospel to the campus encouraged this. In Houston I was the only brother on campus that didn't live in the dorms, I lived in a brothers house. As a result the brothers on campus were often living in rooms two or three doors down from the saints in the various Christian fellowships on campus. They ate meals together, studied together, and we fellowshipped with each other often. (Once I went to a meeting of Moonies, Sun Yung Moon, and that was the only time I was asked by the brother taking the lead on campus to not mention that to the other saints. I went because I met a gospel contact of mine who was going because he wanted to do a paper on them. I didn't want him to go alone.)

In Odessa we were much more open. The church was much smaller and therefore the gospel was much more integral to everyone. Four brothers living in the brothers house would spend Saturday driving around West Texas and meeting with other Christian groups from a breakfast meeting in one town to church meetings in another town. The elders in the church in Odessa did not have any issue with this at all. However, speaking in the church meetings was generally tied to the message shared.

[ylhoff]

If I may ask, are you asking about how to reach those children who were in the first generation and left just prior to, during and just after the "turmoil period?" And if so, how to somehow reach them?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ylhoff

If I may ask, are you asking about how to reach those children who were in the first generation and left just prior to, during and just after the "turmoil period?" And if so, how to somehow reach them?

I was one who left just as the door knocking aspect of the New Way was getting underway (Fall 86). I resurfaced in the early 90's. Most of those children I knew and went to YP conferences with were no longer meeting in the local churches. Within the last 5 years some of the ones I knew I reconnected briefly via Facebook. So if you're a Facebook user, I would recommend Facebook as a medium for reaching them.

As an addition I realize the attitude towards young people lost during and after the turmoil is "they were lost to the world" is an inaccuarate and unfair attitude to have. I believe PriestlyScribe has on one of his websites what Minoru Chen had to share regarding the young people from this generation.