Does LSM Hold to Apostolic Succession?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

"Lee himself believes that he stands in the line of apostolic succession, his authority commensurate with that of the twelve apostles."

Apostolic succession is a heresy.

What proof does Duddy offer that Lee believed this? Furthermore, we are now 3 chapters into this book so Duddy has had enough time to substantiate these claims. He gets his material from "some LC people" who "privately confessed"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Cassidy, but doesn't stating or implying that one is the "Minister of the Age" also state or imply that one is an apostle? Witness Lee definitely implied he was the MotA many times. When he said something to the effect that no one has had the oracle of God but him since 1948, wasn't he saying he was an apostle for all practical purposes? And when Witness Lee led on that he was an apostle, did he ever lead on that he was an apostle of different rank than Paul?

Two things are beyond doubt to anyone who ever followed the man while he was alive: Lee thought he was an apostle and never said there was any other kind of apostle other than the kind Paul was. So plainly he thought and wanted others to think he was on the same rank as Paul.

The word "succession" is a red herring here. The point is Lee thought he was an apostle.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Two things are beyond doubt to anyone who ever followed the man while he was alive: Lee thought he was an apostle and never said there was any other kind of apostle other than the kind Paul was. So plainly he thought and wanted others to think he was on the same rank as Paul.

Have to agree with you on this.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When he said something to the effect that no one has had the oracle of God but him since 1948

This was spoken at the Pasadena Conference (87/88). It is a bold statement to say you are God's Oracle.

“Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What [h]oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Terry

This was spoken at the Pasadena Conference (87/88). It is a bold statement to say you are God's Oracle.

“Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What [h]oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’

Jeremiah 23:33-38

"It is a bold statement to say you are God's Oracle. "

Not capital "O".It is erroneous to say "God's Oracle" in reference to Witness Lee's speaking in Pasadena. Furthermore, He never said "I AM God's Oracle" Finally, the capitalization of Oracle in your sentence suggests the unique Oracle of God which we all acknowledge to be the Son.

"God having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son..." Heb 1:1-2a

A more accurate statement would have been to say that Witness Lee stated he has the oracle (little "o") of God or that what he spoke is God's oracle. God is speaking through the Son today by the Spirit into our spirit to carry out His ministry. All believers can hear God's oracle directly through the Bible and should daily. God also has placed gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherd and teachers) for the work of ministry for the building up of the Body of Christ (Eph 4:11-12) . What the gifts speak from God is His oracle, the ministry that enlightens and enlivens all members to function for the building work, the work of the one ministry. When a gift or any member of the Body of Christ speaks we should listen to the oracle of God and not to the man or woman who is speaking. The oracle of God is potentially there in the speaking of every member of the Body. We should never listen to a man and should repent if that is what you did with Witness Lee. However, we must listen to God in His oracle, the oracle that is spoken through men and to men.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

A more accurate statement would have been to say that Witness Lee stated he has the oracle (little "o") of God or that what he spoke is God's oracle. ...However, we must listen to God in His oracle, the oracle that is spoken through men.
[/SIZE]

You said that "that oracle is spoken through men." I wonder if WL would agree with you. It seems that his claim that he had the oracle was an exclusive one at the time.

So then, if the oracle is spoken through men, according to you, WL's claim that he had the oracle was nothing special; he had it, you could have it (apart from his speaking, his ministry), I could have it, etc? It wasn't/isn't limited to one person, one oracle, at a time?

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

You said that "that oracle is spoken through men." I wonder if WL would agree with you. It seems that his claim that he had the oracle was an exclusive one at the time.

So then, if the oracle is spoken through men, according to you, WL's claim that he had the oracle was nothing special; he had it, you could have it (apart from his speaking, his ministry), I could have it, etc? It wasn't/isn't limited to one person, one oracle, at a time?

ABF,

Of course, God speaks through men. The gifts he gives the Body of the perfecting of all the members for the work of ministry are men. It is a unique and special commission for all who are willing to join in.

Knowing we have the oracle of God the question becomes how do we find it and what is it.

"If we have a sincere, seeking spirit and if we open to the Lord from the depths of our being as we read the Bible, it will be easy for us to hear God’s speaking and receive God’s word. God’s word will reach us."

"This ministry, which is the ministry of the Spirit and the ministry of righteousness, is the New Testament ministry, the unique ministry of God’s New Testament economy. This word is the oracle of God. "

Further Light Concerning the Building Up of the Body of Christ, by Witness Lee

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

ABF,

Of course, God speaks through men.

Of course. So, again, my question(s). Was WL's claim to have the oracle of God anything special? Did he have it more so than others; did he have it exclusively for a time? Were/ are the men through whom God speaks associated solely with the ministry of WL?

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Of course. So, again, my question(s). Was WL's claim to have the oracle of God anything special? Did he have it more so than others; did he have it exclusively for a time? Were/ are the men through whom God speaks associated solely with the ministry of WL?

Special? I will have to say Yes to that as pertains to the biblical definition of a special ministry. However, I do not say special in the sense that God would not raise up another or others for that special ministry. It is obviously special to many for various reasons:

1) Those who give themselves to that ministry think it is special
2) Those that oppose it so vigorously think it is special enough to discredit
3) Watchman Nee referred to it as a special ministry.

"There are many ministries connected with the service of God, but He has chosen a number of men for a special ministry—the ministry of the Word for the building up of the Body of Christ. Since that ministry is different from others, we refer to it as “the ministry.” This ministry is entrusted to a group of people of whom the apostles are chief. It is neither a one-man ministry, nor an “all-men” ministry, but a ministry based upon the gifts of the Holy Spirit and an experimental knowledge of the Lord."

The Normal Christian Church Life - Watchman Nee

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

A more accurate statement would have been to say that Witness Lee stated he has the oracle (little "o") of God or that what he spoke is God's oracle.

"A more accurate statement"? If all you know about Witness Lee and what he is what you read in books then you better leave such things to those of us who know what we're talking about. I won't use the rest of your quote because...well because it makes you sound foolish. You sound like a 3rd grader who is using advanced mathematical and physics terms to convince a group of graduate students that he really knows what Stephen Hawking meant to say. Cassidy, you sound like a kid who is pretty bright and has read all the books but never went to lab class. You know the atomic number of the elements but you're clueless as to how they actually function and interact with each other.

During Lee's earlier ministry, and through the 70s, he rarely touched upon this matter of "apostles", much less that there is one leading apostle in any given age. During one of the depositions in one of those books (Godmen or Mindbenders) one of the attorneys flat out asked Lee if he considered himself an apostle. He gave some typically Lee, mealy mouthed, shuck and jive non-answer to a straight forward question. His answer (really non answer) was something like "we don't use this term apostle". At the time I remember reading this and being confused why Witness Lee didn't boldly proclaim something that we all knew...He was the ONE apostle on earth. I think many of us figured his attorney told him not to admit this to the other side. But he was right, we didn't use this term apostle (much less the one apostle), in fact Lee discouraged the use of this term.

It was only when Ingalls et al back in the late 80s, when Lee really began to do a lot of pushing and shoving, and proclaiming his apostolic authority, that he spilled the beans and proclaimed that he was the only person on earth speaking for God since 1945. We can pull out the quote if you need us to.

[Cassidy]

"proclaimed that he was the only person on earth speaking for God since 1945. We can pull out the quote if you need us to."

I've seen the quote before posted around here. I don't believe it adds any weight to the discussion but you if think it does then toss it in here and we'll have a look.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

When a gift or any member of the Body of Christ speaks we should listen to the oracle of God and not to the man or woman who is speaking. The oracle of God is potentially there in the speaking of every member of the Body. We should never listen to a man and should repent if that is what you did with Witness Lee. However, we must listen to God in His oracle, the oracle that is spoken through men and to men.
[/SIZE]

But isn't this what we are saying? Aren't we saying that we must listen to John Ingalls. We must listen to John So. We must listen to this sister from Shanghai that just wrote a book on Watchman Nee. We must listen to the sisters accused of being in the "Sister's rebellion"?

Aren't we the ones that are saying "we should never listen to a man"? After all to listen to Witness Lee's account of what happened to Watchman Nee forces you to listen to a "man", Witness Lee, and ignore many other saints.

Now none of those saints have to claim to be the "o" oracle in order for us to listen to them. How does saying that he is the "oracle" of God mean anything? If he is saying that others are not the "oracle" of God then isn't that a contradiction to what you just said? And if he is saying that all the gifts and all the members of the God speak as the "oracle" of God then why do you need to say that you are the "oracle" of God?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now none of those saints have to claim to be the "o" oracle in order for us to listen to them. How does saying that he is the "oracle" of God mean anything? If he is saying that others are not the "oracle" of God then isn't that a contradiction to what you just said? And if he is saying that all the gifts and all the members of the God speak as the "oracle" of God then why do you need to say that you are the "oracle" of God?

All this talk about Big-O oracles reminded me of my youth. I had a couple friends who loved to tag one another with catchy nicknames. For a time mine was "Big-O" which was taken from this popular ditty ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7r6A6YQdtI

The caption says, "Here's a blast from the past: "The Ballad of the Big-O", Lawsons' legendary TV commercial from the 1970's. If you were a kid growing up anywhere in central and northern Ohio, this commercial left an indelible mark on your memory!

This is my 2nd nomination for a forum theme song.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All this talk about Big-O oracles reminded me of my youth. I had a couple friends who loved to tag one another with catchy nicknames. For a time mine was "Big-O" which was taken from this popular ditty ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7r6A6YQdtI

The caption says, "Here's a blast from the past: "The Ballad of the Big-O", Lawsons' legendary TV commercial from the 1970's. If you were a kid growing up anywhere in central and northern Ohio, this commercial left an indelible mark on your memory!

This is my 2nd nomination for a forum theme song.

"Then they pick and they squeeze just as quick as you please".

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But isn't this what we are saying? Aren't we saying that we must listen to John Ingalls. We must listen to John So. We must listen to this sister from Shanghai that just wrote a book on Watchman Nee. We must listen to the sisters accused of being in the "Sister's rebellion"?

Aren't we the ones that are saying "we should never listen to a man"? After all to listen to Witness Lee's account of what happened to Watchman Nee forces you to listen to a "man", Witness Lee, and ignore many other saints.

Now none of those saints have to claim to be the "o" oracle in order for us to listen to them. How does saying that he is the "oracle" of God mean anything? If he is saying that others are not the "oracle" of God then isn't that a contradiction to what you just said? And if he is saying that all the gifts and all the members of the God speak as the "oracle" of God then why do you need to say that you are the "oracle" of God?

ZNP,

You have brought up some excellent and crucial points.

I will give you my view on them shortly.

Thanks,

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now none of those saints have to claim to be the "o" oracle in order for us to listen to them. How does saying that he is the "oracle" of God mean anything? If he is saying that others are not the "oracle" of God then isn't that a contradiction to what you just said? And if he is saying that all the gifts and all the members of the God speak as the "oracle" of God then why do you need to say that you are the "oracle" of God?

Thank you ZNP, this was my question exaclty.

[Cal]

The Bible commands all speakers to speak as the oracles of God. (1 Pet 4:11). It means, essentially, if you intend to speak for God make sure you are really speaking God's word.

So every preacher, teacher, etc., in the world should speak as the oracles of God. So, Lee, by saying he had not heard the oracle of God in anyone since 1945 was saying that he had heard no one speaking God's word during that time but him. What a ridiculous claim that was!

This is what you are dealing with in Lee. A gifted man of great insight in some areas, who was completely clueless in others. This is why, I believe, he's been largely ignored by the Church at large. He's too inconsistent. There is so much variance in the reliability of his teaching that finally you just say he's not worth the risk. It's a shame, but he brought it on himself.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So, Lee, by saying he had not heard the oracle of God in anyone since 1945 was saying that he had heard no one speaking God's word during that time but him. What a ridiculous claim that was!

"Even though Christianity has not published any spiritual books of weight for the past thirty-nine years, the Lord has released many riches among us." (Crucial words of leading for the Lord’s recovery, Book 3: the future of the Lord’s Recovery and the building up of the organic service, chapter 7, Witness Lee)

and also

"However, for the past thirty or more years there has been no real progress in Christianity." (Crucial words of leading for the Lord’s recovery, Book 3: the future of the Lord’s Recovery and the building up of the organic service, chapter 7, Witness Lee)

Compare
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

with

8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Bible commands all speakers to speak as the oracles of God. (1 Pet 4:11). It means, essentially, if you intend to speak for God make sure you are really speaking God's word.

So every preacher, teacher, etc., in the world should speak as the oracles of God. So, Lee, by saying he had not heard the oracle of God in anyone since 1945 was saying that he had heard no one speaking God's word during that time but him. What a ridiculous claim that was!

Based on Igzy's quote, all brothers in attendance at that conference were oracles of God. Further you can go to www.sermonindex.net or www.christiantapeministry.com and find messages of many of God's oracles. Some of whom Witness Lee did know and many of whom we have heard if not have listened to at one time or another.

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But isn't this what we are saying? Aren't we saying that we must listen to John Ingalls. We must listen to John So. We must listen to this sister from Shanghai that just wrote a book on Watchman Nee. We must listen to the sisters accused of being in the "Sister's rebellion"?

Aren't we the ones that are saying "we should never listen to a man"? After all to listen to Witness Lee's account of what happened to Watchman Nee forces you to listen to a "man", Witness Lee, and ignore many other saints.

Now none of those saints have to claim to be the "o" oracle in order for us to listen to them. How does saying that he is the "oracle" of God mean anything? If he is saying that others are not the "oracle" of God then isn't that a contradiction to what you just said? And if he is saying that all the gifts and all the members of the God speak as the "oracle" of God then why do you need to say that you are the "oracle" of God?

ZNP,

As mentioned, I think you have brought some excellent points and thanks in advance for the opportunity to address them.

There are many ministries in service to God active today. Excluding the acknowledged heretical groups of all ilks and focusing on what we would consider the orthodox christian groups the question becomes which one(s) do I listen to, to which one(s) do I give my time and resources, which one(s) do I make a commitment to. If a christian does not yield to some christian ministry or participate in some service to God then he is in an abnormal situation. God does not force anyone to do anything but the divine life within each believer, the DNA of the zoe life, is one of service to God and man, ministry of life, community and building of His Body, and devotion and worship to God.

There is no lack of opportunity to participate in service in a christian ministry. Many of the choices available are incompatible with each other by doctrine, mission, practice, or some other distinctiveness. So a choice will need to be made. Therefore, in answer to your first question about listening to others the answer is "no", we are not obligated to accept everyone's ministry or viewpoint and by such rejection we are not violating any Biblical principle. The question is simply are we following God in the ministry we are following.

To your second point, since God speaks through man we must audibly hear from a man but we must listen for the oracle of God spoken therein. If in listening to or reading messages by any minister, Witness Lee or Watchman Nee included, or any believer and we are not hearing the oracle of God then our listening or reading is pointless. For that matter, if we read the Bible without hearing the oracle in the reading it has little profit.

The last point you asked is why is it necessary for any minister to say they have the oracle of God or what they are speaking is the oracle of God. It is necessary at times for a minister to explain or even vindicate their ministry (more about this below). Paul did this on more than one occasion. Yet, here we come to a crucial point in the line of your questioning.

It is God who appoints His servants to a work of ministry. With that work of ministry comes authority. God does not assign a work of ministry without the authority to carry it out. Those who receive the work of servants, must also receive the authority that God has given to him or them. However, if a believer denies "the authority of God in one of God's servants then they should also utterly reject that person's work". (1) For instance, I do not accept the authority of Benny Hinn's ministry, therefore, I utterly reject his work. Many in this forum reject the authority God gave to Witness Lee and Watchman Nee therefore, it is consistent for them to utterly reject their work. If a believer rejects the authority given to the servant of God then they must also reject the work commissioned to that servant. If you do not acknowledge a servant's authority then the work of that servant is not for you.

A ministry and work is acknowledged by the saints who recognize the God-given authority of the ministers who are carrying out that work. A servant's commission is between him and God. Acceptance of the authority given to a servant of God is between the believer and God. If not this ministry already presented to you then which one is the question each believer must ask God. When a believer finds the ministry then they should consecrate themselves to it for in so doing they confirm the authority of God given to that minister.

With this understanding as a basis I will summarize the answers to your questions. No one is demanding every christian accept this ministry, this commission, or this calling. Only those who acknowledge the authority given to these two servants will participate in the special calling. No one else is obligated. If you believe the authority has been given to a certain minister then give yourself to that ministry. God's oracle is through the servant. Listen for it and when you hear it embrace it for it is God's mercy toward you. Those who have heard the oracle of God do not ask for a minister to vindicate their ministry for God has confirmed it already. Those who do not hear the oracle in the speaking of God's servant will not be convinced until they hear it for themselves and therefore it is useless for a minister to vindicate their work of ministry. I close with this opening comment from Watchman Nee in the booklet entitled "What Are We?"

"We are not a new denomination. Neither are we a new sect, a new movement, or a new organization. We are not here to join a certain sect or form our own sect. Other than having a special calling and commission from God, there would be no need for us to exist independently. The reason we are here is that God has given us a special calling."


(Note 1) from Three Aspects of the Church: Book 3, The Organization of the Church by Witness Lee

[Cal]

Basically, when referring to "special" calling, Nee was saying the following:

"We are right and everyone else is wrong, and we can separate ourselves from them because of that."

That's simply sectarianism. Cassidy has tried to defend it and call it something else. But that's all it is. It's sectarianism dolled up as a "special calling." This is proven by the following statement by Cassidy:

"Many of the choices available are incompatible with each other by doctrine, mission, practice, or some other distinctiveness. So a choice will need to be made."

Personal preference of ministry (even if you call it God's leading) doesn't excuse uplifting one ministry over another or separating yourself from other Christians over it. I prefer my pastor and follow him. But that doesn't make him better than others. If use my preference for my pastor as an excuse to tune out other teachers, I'm the one who suffers. Also, the Body suffers, because instead of getting a member who can appreciate the gifts of all, they get a member who can only take it one way.

I don't buy the special calling argument at all.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Personal preference of ministry (even if you call it God's leading) doesn't excuse uplifting one ministry over another or separating yourself from other Christians over it. ...
I don't buy the special calling argument at all.

Exactly. Special calling, perhaps. Paul had one to the Gentiles, although I doubt he thumbed his nose at a Jew or a Christian who hadn't been brought to the Lord by Paul, if he met one on the road. Paul was stronger in his faith (Galatians) than Peter (at least at that moment), who had walked with the Lord, yet in his opposing him to his face he didn't then turn and tell the believers that his (Paul's) ministry was superior to Peter's or the other disciples'. Nor did he say they no longer had the oracle. Yes, Cassidy, Paul, vindicated his ministry, but is was never at the expense of other true believers, it was because of those who sought to undermine the truth. He was never dismissive of other Christians.

The oracle of God may be with one man for a moment, that's no reason to follow THE MAN. The man is simply the conduit, the mouthpiece. In Paul's letters, in Peter's, in the Acts, I can't recall anyone disparaging Christianity at large the way the LC does. I think this is a direct result of WL claiming to the THE MOTA, to being THE ONE with the oracle.

"We are not a new denomination. Neither are we a new sect, a new movement, or a new organization. We are not here to join a certain sect or form our own sect. Other than having a special calling and commission from God, there would be no need for us to exist independently. The reason we are here is that God has given us a special calling."

Cassidy, your quote, I heard that again again today at the meeting. "We are not a movement. We are not a movement within Christianity." Are "we" outside Christianity? In your opinion? What are "we?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't buy the special calling argument at all.

I noticed Cassidy using terms like "ministry", "work", "calling", "commission", and "authority", to reinforce the idea of a christian holding some special apostolic position, with assemblies "affiliated with the ministry" (a phrase I saw atop Lee's 'local church' webpages) vicariously sharing in that special apostolic mission.

I agree with Igzy; I don't buy it at all. I don't buy it for two reasons. First, every Christian has a special calling. We are the "called-out ones", and it is arguably quite special to hear the voice of the Savior, and to respond. Each one who is born again is special in the Father's eyes. Each one who is struggling to fully emerge from the darkness and into the glorious light of the children of God. Do you think anyone is not special in Jesus' eyes? The Shepherd loves His sheep, and will leave 99 who are safe, to rescue any lost one.

Second, to say that "we" have a special calling implies that there is a "they" who do not. The only "we" who have a special calling are the believers. The only "they" who don't have a special calling, work, ground, or ministry, are the unbelievers. To make any further demarcations is sectarianism, no matter how assiduously crafted. Our ground, our calling, is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Any and all other ground is sinking sand. Anyone who tries to be "special", apart from that, is probably just cutting themselves off. The "common faith" is not common: it is special. It is as special as our God is special, and likewise our Savior.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

For instance, I do not accept the authority of Benny Hinn's ministry, therefore, I utterly reject his work. Many in this forum reject the authority God gave to Witness Lee and Watchman Nee therefore, it is consistent for them to utterly reject their work. If a believer rejects the authority given to the servant of God then they must also reject the work commissioned to that servant. If you do not acknowledge a servant's authority then the work of that servant is not for you.

Cassidy, it is not that absolute. I can only speak for myself, but while meeting in the local churches as an adult, it is impossible to remain meeting in the local churches without accepting and appreciating God's work through two of his many servants in Witness Lee and to a lesser extent Watchman Nee. As ministers, they could minister Christ to many brothers and sisters. That does not mean they were perfected beyond their sinful nature.
Until 1990 there was not a ministry book that you could honestly say was not edifying. Two of my personal favorites is The Practical Expression of the Church and Christ versus Religion.
Let us go into the Old Testament account in 1 Samuel chapters 1-4. Eli was a priest used by God, but he had two sons who committed great sins. Though Eli's sons committed great sins, Eli was still a levitical priest.

If a different thread is needed for this next subject, so be it. You'll a central issue on this forum is the Philip Lee non-issue versus an on-going issue of former co-workers. Of which some even as recently last month were reputed to have left because they were interested in their own following rather than for the building up the Body of Christ. I take issue when local elders and LSM co-workers don't want to talk about, but when conferences are given they will talk about it. (Usually giving a one word suits all description why certain brothers are no longer part of the fellowship.)
My point is this like Eli in 1 Samuel, Witness Lee was chosen for a priestly service. No matter how grievously Eli's sons (Hophni and Phineas) and Witness Lee son's (Timothy and Philip) conduct was, these two in Eli and Witness still had a priestly service to exercise.
The issue is not Witness Lee's ministry as it exists in print, in audio, or in video, but the handling of his sons which adversely many brothers and sisters.
The issue of local church practices not matching the ministry is an overflow of how certain elders and co-workers became persona non grata in lieu of Witness Lee's sons; in particular Philip.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Of which some even as recently last month were reputed to have left because they were interested in their own following rather than for the building up the Body of Christ. I take issue when local elders and LSM co-workers don't want to talk about, but when conferences are given they will talk about it. (Usually giving a one word suits all description why certain brothers are no longer part of the fellowship.)

It's called hypocrisy. It's denial. It's a double standard. It's a serious lack of integrity and Christian uprightness, accompanied with a double portion of pride and arrogance.

It's no wonder their leaders can boast of an "unbridgeable gap between them and Christianity, growing wider by the moment."

Too bad Cassidy still goes along with it when he knows better.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

If you believe the authority has been given to a certain minister then give yourself to that ministry. God's oracle is through the servant.

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are dead. Are their writings authoritative like the Bible? Is that the authority you are referring to Cassidy?

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are dead. Are their writings authoritative like the Bible? Is that the authority you are referring to Cassidy?

Thanks for the question.

The authority given by God to a minister for the carrying out of commission can never supersede the authority of the Bible.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

If you believe the authority has been given to a certain minister then give yourself to that ministry.

Where does the Bible issue this principle? Sorry, I don't see it. Nowhere does the Bible expect us to give ourselves to a particular ministry. I'm not "giving myself" to anything but God. If a minister's words witness with my spirit and my understanding of the truth, I take them. But that doesn't mean all his teachings will. What he says today might be great, but he might fall off a cliff tomorrow. Sorry, I'm not going over the cliff with him because of some misplaced idea that I have to "give myself" to some ministry.

Cassidy's priniciple here implies you take everything the minister says without question. Again, where does the Bible teach this? Nowhere.

Cassidy, if this is what LCers believe then it explains they mindless way they swallow things that make absolutely no sense. You think God wants you to "give yourself" to some ministry. The question is, where did you get a cockamamie idea like that? Oh, I know. The minister in question told you. Now you've come full circle. He has complete control over you because you think he has authority and has told you that if you think he has authority you have to give yourself to him.

Yeah, I get it. Explains a lot. Sort of.

[UntoHim]

Time to bring these quotes out of the mothballs:

"That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me, you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me"...."Going with God's oracle, surely there is the deputy authority of God in this oracle. Whoever speaks for God, he surely has certain divine authority, I'm claiming this for Lee!"
Elders Meeting, Pasadena California November 1988

John Ingalls adds this commentary:
"Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God. To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all"

Speaking the Truth in Love, Page 98 - John Ingalls
Copyright @1990 The Word & the Testimony

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

ZNP,

As mentioned, I think you have brought some excellent points and thanks in advance for the opportunity to address them.

There are many ministries in service to God active today...

Fair enough. The NT says that in the Body there are many members and they don't all have the same function. Since there are so many different ministries how can you discern the genuine from the fake? According to Paul the Ministers of the NT ministry have "renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully". This word means both in word and action.

Peter elaborates on this saying that this includes

1. Pernicious ways
2. through covetousness with fabricated words they shall make merchandise of you.

These are the things that disqualify a ministry. You can be in error, as Apollos was and still have a ministry, you just need correction. But, these things are what sink a ministry and cause it to be shipwrecked.

Originally Posted by Cassidy

To your second point, since God speaks through man we must audibly hear from a man but we must listen for the oracle of God spoken therein. If in listening to or reading messages by any minister, Witness Lee or Watchman Nee included, or any believer and we are not hearing the oracle of God then our listening or reading is pointless. For that matter, if we read the Bible without hearing the oracle in the reading it has little profit.

Now this is where we disagree. This approach for "discernment" is seriously lacking. I don't care what you or I hear, if the person is not "commending themselves to every man's conscience" as Paul said, then they are not a minister of the NT.

Originally Posted by Cassidy

The last point you asked is why is it necessary for any minister to say they have the oracle of God or what they are speaking is the oracle of God. It is necessary at times for a minister to explain or even vindicate their ministry (more about this below). Paul did this on more than one occasion.

True. But for what reason? If it is because of fraud, or adultery, or fabricated stories, fables, making merchandise of the saints, etc. then this person is not a minister of the NT, regardless of how they "explain or even vindicate".

Originally Posted by Cassidy

It is God who appoints His servants to a work of ministry. With that work of ministry comes authority. God does not assign a work of ministry without the authority to carry it out.

Fair enough, and with a ministry comes responsibility, ask Moses, Miriam, David, Eli, etc.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Jeremiah 23:33-38

"It is a bold statement to say you are God's Oracle. "

Not capital "O".It is erroneous to say "God's Oracle" in reference to Witness Lee's speaking in Pasadena. Furthermore, He never said "I AM God's Oracle" Finally, the capitalization of Oracle in your sentence suggests the unique Oracle of God which we all acknowledge to be the Son.

A more accurate statement would have been to say that Witness Lee stated he has the oracle (little "o") of God or that what he spoke is God's oracle. God is speaking through the Son today by the Spirit into our spirit to carry out His ministry. All believers can hear God's oracle directly through the Bible and should daily. God also has placed gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherd and teachers) for the work of ministry for the building up of the Body of Christ (Eph 4:11-12) . What the gifts speak from God is His oracle, the ministry that enlightens and enlivens all members to function for the building work, the work of the one ministry. When a gift or any member of the Body of Christ speaks we should listen to the oracle of God and not to the man or woman who is speaking. The oracle of God is potentially there in the speaking of every member of the Body. We should never listen to a man and should repent if that is what you did with Witness Lee. However, we must listen to God in His oracle, the oracle that is spoken through men and to men.

Though the conference tapes are said to be sealed and restricted, here is one account of what was said from Speaking the Truth in Love,

CONFERENCE AND ELDERS’ MEETING
IN PASADENA
November 1988

On the Thanksgiving Day weekend of November 1988 Brother Lee, just returned from Taiwan, held a conference of five meetings in the auditorium of the Pasadena City College in California. The conference was followed by an elders’ meeting November 27th in the meeting place of the church in San Gabriel. In that meeting Brother Lee proclaimed that though he had a hall in Anaheim, he was not happy to use it (no doubt because of certain people who were in Anaheim). The brothers in the Los Angeles area invited him to have a conference and arranged the place in Pasadena. He said that when he heard that it would be in Pasadena he was happy. These people, he said, "exalt" me: I am happy to be exalted.
Before the conference began a report came to us that a flyer had been printed and would be placed on the windshields of all the cars of those attending the conference in Pasadena. On the flyer, we were told, some sinful disorders were mentioned. We fully disapproved of such action. Not knowing who authorized or printed them or who intended to distribute them, but knowing a couple of brothers who we thought might be aware of it, we called them and urged them to do whatever they could to stop the distribution. It seems that our word was heeded, at least to some extent, for no flyers were distributed at the conference. We discovered later, however, that they were put on some cars in the Anaheim meeting hall parking lot. Such acts we believe to be of the flesh and not the way to protest wrongdoing. Some time later, after the conference, we obtained a copy of the flyer. It was entitled Significant Dates in the History of the Church in Anaheim.
In the first meeting of the conference, November 25th, Brother Lee was in a fighting spirit, fighting against "autonomy" and "federation." He referred to some books authored by George Henry Lang, a servant of the Lord in England during the latter part of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th. In one of his books, entitled The Churches of God, Lang emphasized the need for local administration in the churches. This was the book that troubled Brother Lee. (I had read this book, and being deeply impressed with its strong scriptural basis and timely application to our present need, I had recommended it to others.) Brother Lee called Lang’s book heretical and told the saints if they had them to burn them. I consider this kind of talk reckless and lawless. Brother Lee in years past had commended Lang for his insight and writing on the truth of the kingdom. His books have been recently reprinted and are available today.
In the conference meetings he strongly vindicated himself and his work. He gave a message in which he recounted a number of revelations brought forth by him which he said no one else besides the Bible authors had ever seen. Regarding the enjoying of Christ he said, "I invented this term, enjoying Christ." He continued, "I invented this term, experiencing Christ, exhibiting Christ." I believe a number of saints could testify that they heard of enjoying Christ or enjoying the Lord long before Brother Lee ever came to the United States. I for one did. My step-mother, seeking to help me, spoke to me of this in 1949. No doubt she heard this from other Christian teachers. The term, experiencing Christ, has also been spoken by other Christian teachers for years. Brother Lee did not invent that term. He mentioned many other items, claiming that they had all been revealed to him in the past twenty or so years; no one else had ever seen or spoken of them.
He referred to the title he has used for the Holy Spirit – "the all-inclusive Spirit of Christ as the consummation of the processed Triune God" – and asked who made such a title. Webster? he asked. Then he answered his own question, "That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me, you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me." A little later in his message he said, "Going with God’s oracle, surely there is the deputy authority of God in this oracle. Whoever speaks for God, he surely has certain divine authority. I’m claiming this for Lee!"
Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God? To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all.
Following his message he asked for testimonies to be given by brothers from five countries: Brazil, the Philippines, Korea, Taiwan, and the United States. All these told of the success of the new way in their place, especially giving statistics regarding the number of churches and new ones baptized. The Lord along knows the real situation. If there is any real blessing from Him we rejoice and give thanks.
In the elders’ meeting following the conference Brother Lee read from a list of items, mentioning what he said were the top ten revelations received by him, seen previously by no one else. Some of them were as follows:

1. "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
2. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).
3. Prayreading.
4. Calling on the name of the Lord.
5. The seven Spirits.
6. The dispensing of the processed Triune God into the tripartite man.
7. The New Jerusalem as a corporate man.
8. The lampstand as the embodiment of the Triune God.

Now we thank God for these revelations from His holy Word, but to claim that he was the first one to see these is going altogether too far. Moreover, concerning at least a number of these items, Brother Lee was in fact not the first to see them. Regarding the last Adam becoming a life-giving Spirit and our being one spirit with the Lord, there were a number of other Christian teachers who saw and wrote of these things. We have evidence of this. Concerning prayreading, many have seen this and practiced this, as recorded in the book authored by Ray Graver and published by the LSM entitled, Lord…Thou Saidst. Calling on the name of the Lord was not a recent discovery by Brother Lee or by us. The New Jerusalem as a corporate person was also seen by others—T. Austin-Sparks for one. If we have time or if there is the need, we may document all these instances.
The revelations mentioned are indeed great and precious. Fairly speaking, some of these matters may have been fresh revelations to Brother Lee. The Lord alone knows. And some of them he may have enunciated more clearly than his predecessors. But for anyone to claim that no one had ever seen these things before, but him, is totally insupportable, since we are not omniscient. Moreover, such self-vindication is very unbecoming and repugnant.
Brother Lee went on to say, "You cannot deny the fact that the Lord’s oracle has been with me. I claim this at the face of Jesus Christ. The deputy authority of God is in His oracle; so whoever speaks for God has His deputy authority. But I never used it."
In the elders’ meeting, Brother Lee referred to some anonymous papers being circulated and blamed the elders in Anaheim for not stopping the distribution. He then referred to the flyer which had been printed and was to be put on the windshields of the cars at the conference. I then rose from my seat and said that we wanted Brother Lee and all the brothers to know that we fully disapproved of that action and had done whatever we could to stop it. Brother Lee took the opportunity then, while I was on my feet, to question me publicly about a few things. He asked me about an anonymous writing entitled Reconsidering Our Vision. (which had troubled him greatly) and if we had done anything to stop its circulation. I said that we had not.
Regarding some brothers, probably including me (or, especially me), Brother Lee said, Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in, what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you. He said further, Which church is under my hand? You have a church; I have none. I know which church welcomes me, and which has a cold heart toward me.
Near the end of his word he proclaimed, I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care. I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth.
When he sat down and asked for fellowship, a brother from Anaheim, Paul Kerr, rose toward the end of the time and asked two questions. The first consisted of two queries: Why have other brothers besides you not been raised up? And, Why do you have no contemporaries to challenge you and fellowship with you? Brother Lee’s answer was simply, "I don’t know." And then he said that since 1945 he has been watching to see if anyone else could speak God’s word as God’s oracle. He could find none. Paul Kerr’s next question concerned John So and John Ingalls. He asked, "How is it that in the past you referred to these two brothers as pillars and today’s Timothy, and today you have nothing good to say about them? Brother Lee’s reply was that brothers can change. Demas loved the Lord, but then he changed and loved the world. I can change, he said; we all can change. So we all need the Lord’s mercy.
Brother Lee was beside himself in this meeting. I had never personally observed him in such a state as I witnessed him there. He was obviously exceedingly agitated. That was the last elders’ meeting with Brother Lee that I ever attended.
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