Does LSM Hold to Apostolic Succession?

[Cassidy]

"Cassidy, your quote, I heard that again again today at the meeting. "We are not a movement. We are not a movement within Christianity." Are "we" outside Christianity? In your opinion? What are "we?"

What mean "we" paleface?

Seriously, elaborate on "we", ABF.

Thanks

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

"Cassidy, your quote, I heard that again again today at the meeting. "We are not a movement. We are not a movement within Christianity." Are "we" outside Christianity? In your opinion? What are "we?"

What mean "we" paleface?

Seriously, elaborate on "we", ABF.

Thanks

It was your quote, Cassidy, post #57. Are you serious or just playing ignorant as to what "we" means? I suspect you know very well that it means the Local Church Movement that claims it's not a movement.

_______________________________ . __________________________

Part of the genius of the LC speak it that they can always claim that when they disparage Christianity they're talking about all that's wrong with it, not the believers, the system, and not those within it. Anyone who's heard the LC talk about Christianity knows that's not the case. When they speak negatively about Christianity them mean the system and those within it.

Aron's post is spot on, "But when Lee et al could use "the establishment" suddenly they sang a different tune. See Moody Bible Institute and Christian Research Institute, for example. Suddenly "the establishment" is held up as a bastion of Christian orthodoxy."

We were encouraged to buy copies of the CRI journal with the we were wrong article, now we were proven to be right, not aberrant, not cultish. We were told how much one of Hank's family members enjoyed the meetings in Charlotte, NC ( I wonder if he still meets with them on a regular basis). One moment it was belittling Christianity and on the other praising them for having legitimized the LC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Part of the genius of the LC speak it that they can always claim that when they disparage Christianity they're talking about all that's wrong with it, not the believers, the system, and not those within it. Anyone who's heard the LC talk about Christianity knows that's not the case. When they speak negatively about Christianity them mean the system and those within it.

Brother in Faith, one day I was thinking about the old saying of Lee, "love the brother, but hate the system." I realized it is practically impossible to fulfill. It's kind of like telling my dear wife, "Honey I love you, but I hate the way you talk, I hate all those things you do, I hate the way you cook, I hate your family, I hate the words you use, I hate ..."

That's exactly what we tried to do with Christians. We said we loved them, but then hated how they spoke, hated how they served, hated how they worshiped, hated their doctrines, hated their assemblies, hated their ..." Actually we loved them only as long as they potentially would take our way.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother in Faith, one day I was thinking about the old saying of Lee, "love the brother, but hate the system." I realized it is practically impossible to fulfill. It's kind of like telling my dear wife, "Honey I love you, but I hate the way you talk, I hate all those things you do, I hate the way you cook, I hate your family, I hate the words you use, I hate ..."

That's exactly what we tried to do with Christians. We said we loved them, but then hated how they spoke, hated how they served, hated how they worshiped, hated their doctrines, hated their assemblies, hated their ..." Actually we loved them only as long as they potentially would take our way.

Right. And we "received" Luther, yet refused and rejected his spiritual progeny (Lutherans). Etc, etc. Like Jesus said about people who were building tombs to the prophets their fathers killed. All the encomiums to our spiritual heritage, and to those who'd gone before, were so much lip service if we were simultaneously dismissing the fellow heirs of that very spriritual heritage.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

When they speak negatively about Christianity them mean the system and those within it.

Exactly ABF! Some on the forum may know this already. My wife misses the LC Lord's Day meetings. (PriestlyScribe you know) What my wife misses is the table meeting. When the prophesying was going on, she was in the back with the children. As I communicated to her, what she missed out on was an ocassional negative prophesy directed at Christianity and those within it. I brought it up to an elder. The elder didn't share the conviction I had, so that was it.

[Cassidy]

"It was your quote, Cassidy, post #57. Are you serious or just playing ignorant as to what "we" means? I suspect you know very well that it means the Local Church Movement that claims it's not a movement."

ABF,

First, I did not say anything about being "outside of Christianity" in post 57. Rather by your own admission you heard this in a meeting you attended this week in a local church you were sitting in.

Secondly, I was serious in my question. I have no idea what you mean by "we". Maybe you meant the local church you attend, or the Local Churches at large in 2012, or the churches at the time Watchman Nee spoke that word , or maybe you meant to include me with you when you say "we" (although I have no idea why you would do that). Any number of possibilities. Since you meant the Local Church you should have just said that.

However, since you attend the meetings of the local church why are you asking me? Why haven't you put these questions to the elders in your locality? Someone mentions in a meeting you are sitting in "We are not a movement. We are not a movement within Christianity." and you come ask me for clarification? Step up! Are you playing games with me or with the brothers and sisters in your locality? If you seriously want an answer to something you heard in your meeting then why are you NOT bringing it up there? Now that begs the question, why you bring it up with me here instead? By asking me were you really seeking clarification, a sincere inquiry, or were you merely teeing up your swing? Serious? Then answer that and oh by the way, why are still you there as part of the local "we"?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

[I][COLOR=Blue]

However, since you attend the meetings of the local church why are you asking me? Why haven't you put these questions to the elders in your locality? Someone mentions in a meeting you are sitting in "We are not a movement. We are not a movement within Christianity." and you come ask me for clarification?

The question could have been asked of anyone. Taken you've been regenerated and baptized, you're a member of the Body. What do you say? Not knowing ABF, he's probably well acquianted with his elders and knows what their answers will be. That is another topic in itself.

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Terry

The question could have been asked of anyone. Taken you've been regenerated and baptized, you're a member of the Body. What do you say? Not knowing ABF, he's probably well acquianted with his elders and knows what their answers will be. That is another topic in itself.

Terry,

Originally, I thought ABF was sincere but the tone of his last response and his comments have me convinced he was simply teeing up. He can make his points without that unnecessary step.

Also, I realized that he has serious issues with the brothers and sisters where he meets and I believe it would be better for him to resolve those definitively one way or the other instead of trying to fix that here.

If he wants sincere fellowship on any matter I will be happy to discuss in private exchange. If not, that is okay too.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Also, I realized that he has serious issues with the brothers and sisters where he meets and I believe it would be better for him to resolve those definitively one way or the other instead of using trying to fix that here.

If his experience is what I experienced, majority of the brothers and sisters, there's no issue. Even when I habored my concerns of the past Recovery history (which I address on this forum), I never made it an issue for meeting in fellowship.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Terry,

Originally, I thought ABF was sincere but the tone of his last response and his comments have me convinced he was simply teeing up. He can make his points without that unnecessary step.

Also, I realized that he has serious issues with the brothers and sisters where he meets and I believe it would be better for him to resolve those definitively one way or the other instead of trying to fix that here.

If he wants sincere fellowship on any matter I will be happy to discuss in private exchange. If not, that is okay too.

ABIF not sincere? Simply teeing up? Serious issues with others?

Really Cassidy, I thought he was posting in good faith, attempting sincere dialog -- and now you launch these complaints at him, just for seeking clarification.

Children ... today's word is "obfuscate," and Cassidy will now show us the proper use if this word.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ABIF not sincere? Simply teeing up? Serious issues with others?

Really Cassidy, I thought he was posting in good faith, attempting sincere dialog -- and now you launch these complaints at him, just for seeking clarification.

Children ... today's word is "obfuscate," and Cassidy will now show us the proper use if this word.

So far in an attempt to engage in sincere dialog and seeking clarification I have asked Cassidy 2 very specific on-topic questions. One in this thread and one in another thread. No answers yet!

1. OK. So Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are dead. Where is their authority now?

2. Since Witness Lee's writings are fallible which items do you consider wrong?

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

"It was your quote, Cassidy, post #57. Are you serious or just playing ignorant as to what "we" means? I suspect you know very well that it means the Local Church Movement that claims it's not a movement."

ABF,

First, I did not say anything about being "outside of Christianity" in post 57. Rather by your own admission you heard this in a meeting you attended this week in a local church you were sitting in.

Secondly, I was serious in my question. I have no idea what you mean by "we". Maybe you meant the local church you attend, or the Local Churches at large in 2012, or the churches at the time Watchman Nee spoke that word , or maybe you meant to include me with you when you say "we" (although I have no idea why you would do that). Any number of possibilities. Since you meant the Local Church you should have just said that.

However, since you attend the meetings of the local church why are you asking me? Why haven't you put these questions to the elders in your locality? Someone mentions in a meeting you are sitting in "We are not a movement. We are not a movement within Christianity." and you come ask me for clarification? Step up! Are you playing games with me or with the brothers and sisters in your locality? If you seriously want an answer to something you heard in your meeting then why are you NOT bringing it up there? Now that begs the question, why you bring it up with me here instead? By asking me were you really seeking clarification, a sincere inquiry, or were you merely teeing up your swing? Serious? Then answer that and oh by the way, why are still you there as part of the local "we"?

"We are not a new denomination. Neither are we a new sect, a new movement, or a new organization. We are not here to join a certain sect or form our own sect. Other than having a special calling and commission from God, there would be no need for us to exist independently. The reason we are here is that God has given us a special calling."

The above is how you ended post #57. I think I explained that I had heard the same thing in a meeting I was in.

As to your being serious...You feigned being an American Indian ("What mean "we" paleface? ") then turned into a late night tv comic, " But seriously...." I honestly thought you were kidding.

As Terry stated, I know where the elders stand, I know where many of the saints in my locality stand. I was asking you where you stand. I am not addressing them. You assumed that I haven't already done those things. My question to you, here on the forum, was clear. The "we" in your quote is the same "we" I heard this past Sunday. I want to know what YOU think the LC is if it's not a movement. Who else can I ask for clarification about YOUR opinion on the matter?!

I am not "playing games" with you Cassidy. You're the one using sports metaphors.

My question was genuine, and questioning my genuineness is a nice way to evade answering. I have been nothing but genuine here. Show me where I've been otherwise. What tone did you hear in my post that wasn't appropriate to the paleface comment of yours? Instead of questioning people's sincerity give them the benefit of the doubt until they've shown themselves to be unworthy of it...

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

"It was your quote, Cassidy, post #57. Are you serious or just playing ignorant as to what "we" means? I suspect you know very well that it means the Local Church Movement that claims it's not a movement."

ABF,

First, I did not say anything about being "outside of Christianity" in post 57. Rather by your own admission you heard this in a meeting you attended this week in a local church you were sitting in.

Secondly, I was serious in my question. I have no idea what you mean by "we". Maybe you meant the local church you attend, or the Local Churches at large in 2012, or the churches at the time Watchman Nee spoke that word , or maybe you meant to include me with you when you say "we" (although I have no idea why you would do that). Any number of possibilities. Since you meant the Local Church you should have just said that.

However, since you attend the meetings of the local church why are you asking me? Why haven't you put these questions to the elders in your locality? Someone mentions in a meeting you are sitting in "We are not a movement. We are not a movement within Christianity." and you come ask me for clarification? Step up! Are you playing games with me or with the brothers and sisters in your locality? If you seriously want an answer to something you heard in your meeting then why are you NOT bringing it up there? Now that begs the question, why you bring it up with me here instead? By asking me were you really seeking clarification, a sincere inquiry, or were you merely teeing up your swing? Serious? Then answer that and oh by the way, why are still you there as part of the local "we"?

***MODERATOR WARNING***

Cassidy,

The above post is classic tap-dancing, and this forum will not tolerate it. You should have been clear from ABF's question that "we" was the people of the Lord's Recovery, because, for one, no one talks like that but them and you know it.

First you asked him who "we" was, when you should have known. Second when he made it clear, you acted like he should not have been asking you.

This is obfuscation and forum abuse. You owe ABF an apology.

If you don't have an opinion about what the LR is, then say that. But don't try to pawn off this garbage that you didn't know what he was talking about, or that once you knew he was out of line asking for your opinion.

You have said you prefer dialogue. But when push comes to shove you start tap dancing and dodging questions and tossing out red herrings and non sequiturs. Please answer the question or don't answer it with some kind of reasonable explanation why. But do not insult this forum and the people in it by playing these kinds of games.

You are under warning. Don't do it again.

Moderator

[Cal]

Cassidy,

I will put ABF's question to you.

Since you are sympathetic with the so-called Lord's Recovery movement, when they say things in reference to themselves like "we are not a sect, movement, organization or denomination," do you agree? And if you do agree, what would you say they are if they are not these other things? Please give your opinion on this matter.

Please answer or explain why you choose not to.

Aside from and until I hear an direct answer,or a reasonable clarification of why you won't answer, AND an apology to ABF, I don't want to hear anything else from you on this particular subject. Though you can participate in this thread PROVIDED you cease from obfuscating posts.