The Experience of Christ

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]Harold, you're not ganna like this.....

THE BIBLE IS THE SWITCH. The bible is one ginormous switch. Or maybe it's 66 separate switches! Either way, it's the only way to switch from not knowing God to knowing Him! Isn't that cool that God has done this for us? Just think about it, "the information age" actually started way back about 2,900 years ago with the most important information of all: "In the beginning God".

If there is such a "switch," then I would have to say that it is our FAITH, rather than the Bible.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If there is such a "switch," then I would have to say that it is our FAITH, rather than the Bible.

Yes, I agree. The key to a real encounter with Christ is faith.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Heb 11:6

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If there is such a "switch," then I would have to say that it is our FAITH, rather than the Bible.

Good answer ... and we have both ... and grace ... and the Spirit ... and nature and the cosmos ... and ... and ... and ... and

[UntoHim]

At the risk of "paralysis by analysis".... I think our faith is the finger that hits the switch. But maybe we're venturing into Lee territory, where one over-allegorizes the trees to the point of missing the forest.

Oh well, maybe just a momentary distraction from "experiencing" Christ on this thread.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

At the risk of "paralysis by analysis".... I think our faith is the finger that hits the switch.

Concerning the "switch" you proposed, I gave no "analysis" which could in anyway cause "paralysis," but if I did ... I would begin by citing ...

• that Abraham was the father of faith
• the Hab 2.4/Rom 1.17/Gal 3.11/Heb 10.38 series stating "the just shall live by faith"
• the Faith Hall of Fame in Hebrews 11.

[Cal]

For this reason, we, from the day when we had word of it, keep on in prayer for you, that you may be full of the knowledge of his purpose, with all wisdom and experience of the Spirit. Colossians 1:9 BEB

Grace and peace to you many times over as you deepen in your experience with God and Jesus, our Master. 2 Peter 1:2 MSG

As we keep his commands, we live deeply and surely in him, and he lives in us. And this is how we experience his deep and abiding presence in us: by the Spirit he gave us. 1 John 3:24 MSG

But I have sure faith that I will experience the LORD's goodness in the land of the living! Psalm 27:13 CEB

We saw it, we heard it, and now we're telling you so you can experience it along with us, this experience of communion with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:3 MSG

Let me experience Your faithful love in the morning, for I trust in You. Reveal to me the way I should go, because I long for You. Psalm 143:8 CSB

And {you will experience joy and exultation}, and many will rejoice at his birth. Luke 1:14 LEB

And all who believe in God's Son have eternal life. Those who don't obey the Son will never experience eternal life, but the wrath of God remains upon them." John 3:36 NLT

Then you will experience for yourselves the truth, and the truth will free you." John 8:32 MSG

Now I'm returning to you. I'm saying these things in the world's hearing So my people can experience My joy completed in them. John 17:13 MSG

He became hungry and wanted to eat. While others were preparing the meal, he had a visionary experience. Acts 10:10 CEB

"I was in the city of Joppa praying when I had a visionary experience. In my vision, I saw something like a large linen sheet being lowered from heaven by its four corners. It came all the way down to me. Acts 11:5 CEB

He has brought us by faith into this experience of God's grace, in which we now live. And so we boast of the hope we have of sharing God's glory! Romans 5:2 GNT

And let not your behaviour be like that of this world, but be changed and made new in mind, so that by experience you may have knowledge of the good and pleasing and complete purpose of God. Romans 12:2 BBE

I'm simply trying to point out that under your new Master you're going to experience a marvelous freedom you would never have dreamed of. On the other hand, if you were free when Christ called you, you'll experience a delightful "enslavement to God" you would never have dreamed of. 1 Corinthians 7:22 MSG

But when you proclaim his truth in everyday speech, you're letting others in on the truth so that they can grow and be strong and experience his presence with you. 1 Corinthians 14:3 MSG

Because I was sure of this, I wanted to come to you first, so that you might have a second experience of grace. 2 Corinthians 1:15 ESV

Did you experience so much for nothing? I wonder if it really was for nothing. Galatians 3:4 CEB

Be very sure now, you who have been trained to a self-sufficient maturity, that you enter into a generous common life with those who have trained you, sharing all the good things that you have and experience.
Galatians 6:6 MSG

You'll be able to take in with all Christians the extravagant dimensions of Christ's love. Reach out and experience the breadth! Test its length! Plumb the depths! Rise to the heights! Ephesians 3:18 MSG

May you experience the love of Christ, though it is so great you will never fully understand it. Then you will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God. Ephesians 3:19 NLT

And my prayer is that you may be increased more and more in knowledge and experience. Philippians 1:9 NIV

All I want is to know Christ and to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death, Philippians 3:10 GNT

So that, somehow, I can experience the resurrection from the dead! Philippians 3:11 NLT

If you do this, you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:7 NLT

Receive and experience the amazing grace of the Master, Jesus Christ, deep, deep within yourselves. Philippians 4:23 MSG

How can we thank God for you in return for all the joy we experience because of you before our God, 1 Thessalonians 3:9 CSB

This is why I endure everything for the sake of those who are chosen by God so that they too may experience salvation in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10 CEB

If we believe, though, we'll experience that state of resting. But not if we don't have faith. Remember that God said, Exasperated, I vowed, "They'll never get where they're going, never be able to sit down and rest." Hebrews 4:3 MSG

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

For this reason, we, from the day when we had word of it, keep on in prayer for you, that you may be full of the knowledge of his purpose, with all wisdom and the experience of Christ. Colossians 1:9 NIV

Grace and peace to you many times over as you deepen in your experience of Christ. 2 Peter 1:2 MSG

As we keep his commands, we live deeply and surely in him, and he lives in us. And this is how we experience Christ: by the Spirit he gave us. 1 John 3:24 MSG

But I have sure faith that I will experience Christ in the land of the living! Psalm 27:13 CEB

We saw it, we heard it, and now we're telling you so you can experience it along with us, this experience of Christ. 1 John 1:3 MSG

Let me experience Christ in the morning, for I trust in You. Reveal to me the way I should go, because I long for You. Psalm 143:8 CSB

And {you will experience Christ}, and many will rejoice at his birth. Luke 1:14 LEB

And all who believe in God's Son have eternal life. Those who don't obey the Son will never experience Christ, but the wrath of God remains upon them." John 3:36 NLT

Then you will experience Christ, and this experience will free you." John 8:32 MSG

Now I'm returning to you. I'm saying these things in the world's hearing So my people can experience Christ in them. John 17:13 MSG

He became hungry and wanted to eat. While others were preparing the meal, he had an experience of Christ. Acts 10:10 CEB

"I was in the city of Joppa praying when I had an experience of Christ, in which I saw something like a large linen sheet being lowered from heaven by its four corners. It came all the way down to me. Acts 11:5 CEB

He has brought us by faith into this experience of Christ, in which we now live. And so we boast of the hope we have of sharing God's glory! Romans 5:2 GNT

And let not your behavior be like that of this world, but be changed and made new in mind, so that by experience of Christ you may have knowledge of the good and pleasing and complete purpose of God. Romans 12:2 BBE

I'm simply trying to point out that under your new Master you're going to experience Christ you would never have dreamed of. On the other hand, if you were free when Christ called you, you'll experience Christ in a way you'd never have dreamed of. 1 Corinthians 7:22 MSG

But when you proclaim his truth in everyday speech, you're letting others in on the truth so that they can grow and be strong and experience Christ. 1 Corinthians 14:3 MSG

Because I was sure of this, I wanted to come to you first, so that you might have a second experience of Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:15 ESV

Did you experience Christ so much for nothing? I wonder if it really was for nothing. Galatians 3:4 CEB

Be very sure now, you who have been trained to a self-sufficient maturity, that you enter into a generous common life with those who have trained you, sharing all the Christ that you have and experience.
Galatians 6:6 MSG

You'll be able to take in with all Christians the extravagant dimensions of Christ's love. Reach out and experience Christ in all the breadth! Test its length! Plumb the depths! Rise to the heights! Ephesians 3:18 MSG

May you experience Christ, though it is so great you will never fully understand it. Then you will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God. Ephesians 3:19 NLT

And my prayer is that you may be increased more and more in knowledge and experience of Christ. Philippians 1:9 NIV

All I want is to know Christ and to experience Him, to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death, Philippians 3:10 GNT

So that, somehow, I can experience Christ! Philippians 3:11 NLT

If you do this, you will experience Christ, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:7 NLT

Receive and experience Christ, deep, deep within yourselves. Philippians 4:23 MSG

How can we thank God for you in return for all the Christ we experience because of you before our God, 1 Thessalonians 3:9 CSB

This is why I endure everything for the sake of those who are chosen by God so that they too may experience Christ with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10 CEB

If we believe, though, we'll experience Christ. But not if we don't have faith. Remember that God said, Exasperated, I vowed, "They'll never get where they're going, never be able to sit down and rest." Hebrews 4:3 MSG

Nice set of verses. However, I had to modify them all, somewhat (see bolded sections above), to make them line up with the conversation we've been having on this thread. They're much improved, now, and I really ''gained Christ'' by the ''experience'' of modifying and re-typing these translations.

Of course, that was sarcasm. In reality I now see one of WL's generic processed smoothies, writ large. An interpretational overlay of the so-called experience of Christ didn't bring us deeper, but smoothed it all out to bland and homogeneous nothingness.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

Nice set of verses. However, I had to modify them all, somewhat (see bolded sections above), to make them line up with the conversation we've been having on this thread. They're much improved, now, and I really ''gained Christ'' by the ''experience'' of modifying and re-typing these translations.

Of course, that was sarcasm. In reality I now see one of WL's generic processed smoothies, writ large. An interpretational overlay of the so-called experience of Christ didn't bring us deeper, but smoothed it all out to bland and homogeneous nothingness.

The lengths some people will go to try to make a point.

Why can't we just take the logical conclusion, that we do experience Christ but even that idea can be abused? Why take one extreme or the other? Lee's "everything is Christ" is an extreme and OBW's reaction to Lee is an extreme the other way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The lengths some people will go to try to make a point.

We can't we just take the logical conclusion, that we do experience Christ but even that idea can be abused? Why take one extreme or the other? Lee's "everything is Christ" is an extreme and OBW's reaction to Lee is an extreme the other way.

Perhaps we have all been stricken by Lee with the disease of extremism. So many of the ones I know, who have left the LC, have just gone to another brand of it.

Wise old Solomon said something about moderation. Perhaps his is a point well taken. Apostle Paul had something interesting to say also, "Let your moderation be known to all men, the Lord in near."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Why can't we just take the logical conclusion, that we do experience Christ .

I've seen some take the logical conclusion that Mary is the Mother of God. Because Jesus is God incarnate and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Logical.

The "ground of the church" is a logical construct. Watchman Nee took that one very far. Etc. Not interested. Number one, what does your logical construct add? Anything? (Other than selling someone some books). My answer: No, I don't see anything of value coming along. Number two, if you do pay too much attention, and place undue value on your logical construct, as something to hold in your attention, what do you lose? My answer: a lot. Instead of loving one another, you try to "experience Christ" or "take the ground". And so on. Not interested.

I'm not "bent out of shape" about it, as you've said some here are. I was just reading the online discussion here on this thread, essentially between you & OBW, and it seemed to me that you were dismissing his position as one of intransigence. As if he didn't have a valid argument, or a point. I came on here simply to say, No, I think he does have a point.

We could take 856 different subjects and do the same thing, argue different sides without going anywhere. It really doesn't matter. Your proverbial "middle of the road" is to acknowledge that different people have points of view, which are to them valid. That includes OBW. I was just trying to say that his argument wasn't simple intransigence, that there was substance to it. That's all. Not trying to convince you or Ohio that he, or I, or anyone, is "right". (And if I have gone to extremes, well, that was to make my point Mea culpa).

Have any of us "experienced Christ" while writing these posts? I don't know. I don't know how I would know. OBW can be a prickly sort, but he has points to make, and sometimes they make sense, like this one did, to me. If my coming along, here, and saying "amen" was experiencing Christ, okay. Whatever.

(Now to another point: what is the switch? I believe WL would say, Your mouth is the switch. Right? I didn't read his books, but I sat in a lot of meetings. He would say, "Your mouth is connected to your spirit. Open your mouth and activate your spirit. Gain Christ". That was his incessant theme. Unfortunately, our mouths occasionally spew forth salty water, as well as sweet. So simply opening our mouths is no guarantee that we either experience, or gain, the Christ of God. And WL's mouth occasionally spewed forth garbage, as well; Exhibit A is "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion." I read that book when I was a die-hard Leeite, and I was quite unsettled by it... it had language that would make a sailor blush. So "exercising our spirits" over "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of Lee" isn't an adequate benchmark for "activating Christ", either.)

It's very clear to me that Jesus Christ won the victory. Where I am relative to that victory remains at least somewhat unclear. Obviously I try to co-operate, and have done so. But where I am in the scheme of things is unknown. The safe thing to do, it seems to me, is not to assume anything. Because of the fact that occasionally my mouth has betrayed me (and my eyes, and my hands, and my feet), therefore I don't assume that the times it has cooperated have left me with a net benefit. The very act of trying to ascertain my position on the ledger sends me backward. I simply cannot ascertain, on a day to day or moment to moment basis, if and how much I am "gaining Christ". That will be left to the Bema. So I let it go. I have other things to pay attention to.

If I look at that score-card in the sky as valuable in its own right, I get distracted, I get discouraged, I get confused, I get frustrated, or if I think that I'm "gaining Christ" I get proud, lazy, and arrogant. It just doesn't work. Jesus told us our evaluative skills are warped. We can see the splinter in someone else's eye and miss the beam in our own. We can kill people and think we are serving God. Think about that for a minute: you can kill someone while loudly proclaiming that you are "experiencing Christ"! Why bother. Don't get distracted.

I think that was OBW's message. Maybe he didn't phrase it nicely enough for some. But there was a point being made, there.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Nice set of verses. However, I had to modify them all, somewhat (see bolded sections above), to make them line up with the conversation we've been having on this thread. They're much improved, now, and I really ''gained Christ'' by the ''experience'' of modifying and re-typing these translations.

Of course, that was sarcasm. In reality I now see one of WL's generic processed smoothies, writ large. An interpretational overlay of the so-called experience of Christ didn't bring us deeper, but smoothed it all out to bland and homogeneous nothingness.

But those verses are just adorable. They fully support Igzy's position. I get it. The Bible supports experiencing Christ. If you put it on a torture rack, to make it say the "right" thing. I wish we had a talking Bible, that could tell us what it means.

Many, many, traditional Christians, wouldn't and don't have a clue of what is meant by experiencing Christ. It's not even in their vocabulary.

When I was attending the Church of Christ they had a visiting preacher come and speak. And he really pitched Henry Blackaby's "Experiencing God: Knowing and Doing the Will of God."

Our preacher was enthused. And bought a hard bound copy of Blackaby's book and give everyone in the adult Sunday School class our own personal copy. We covered the book for a few weeks. I read mine but no one else did. I tried to generate excitement about it. They weren't really interested. As a result experiencing God fell flat, even with the preacher, in the end.

Seems to me this notion of experiencing Christ is germane to the local church. Are you not a Christian if you don't experience Christ?

[OBW]

I cannot go through Igzy’s entire list, but my findings were interesting. But first, there is something troubling about the number of translations, mostly not the mainstream, that were used. And I think it will come out as we go through.

Key to Translations:
BEB: ?
MSG: Message
CEB: Common English Bible
CSB: ?
LEB: Lexham English Bible
GNT: Good News Translation
BBE: ?
NLT: New Living Translation
ESV: English Standard Version
NIV: New International Version

Originally Posted by Igzy

Colossians 1:9 (BEB). For this reason, we, from the day when we had word of it, keep on in prayer for you, that you may be full of the knowledge of his purpose, with all wisdom and experience of the Spirit.

The word is “understanding” everywhere that I can find (and I cannot find a “BEB version). Is this an outlier you are asserting is standard understanding of the verse and its meaning?

Originally Posted by Igzy

2 Peter 1:2 (MSG). Grace and peace to you many times over as you deepen in your experience with God and Jesus, our Master.

Another translational outlier? All other translations I consulted said “knowledge.”

Originally Posted by Igzy

1 John 3:24 (MSG). As we keep his commands, we live deeply and surely in him, and he lives in us. And this is how we experience his deep and abiding presence in us: by the Spirit he gave us.

You are fishing for the one translation (typically not a primary “go-to” translation) to provide meaning. In this case, it seems that it simply says “by the Spirit.” Not experience, or knowledge that comes from (neither is provided). So where is the insistence when only one says it that way?

Originally Posted by Igzy

Psalm 27:13 (CEB). But I have sure faith that I will experience the LORD's goodness in the land of the living!

Finally found one that the NIV even agrees with. But what is experience? Several other translations use “see” rather than “experience.” So “observe” might be reasonable. Something that can be seen, not just felt or “experienced” in that kind of meaning of the word.

And a good Psalm. But what is it to behold the beauty of the Lord in this context? To have some kind of inner thing that only you can “be there” to see? I suspect it is in the observation of the peace of Israel, the prosperity of the land, and so on. David is not waxing poetic about how good he feels inside because of something no one else can see. He has lived a life in which God’s pleasure and displeasure are tangible and visible. The people know when it is one way or the other because they see it too.

Originally Posted by Igzy

1 John 1:3 (MSG). We saw it, we heard it, and now we're telling you so you can experience it along with us, this experience of communion with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ.

”Fellowship.” Surely if you don’t “experience” the fellowship, then you probably weren’t there. But again, the Message is the odd one. It is confirming your insistence that “experience” is all over the Bible. But even if the word can be used (and is used by one out of many) it is problematic to prefer the generic over the specific. Fellowship is something specific that you can put within “experience” if you so choose. Why not insist on fellowship here? Why prefer something that does not say “fellowship”?

Originally Posted by Igzy

Psalm 143:8 (CSB). Let me experience Your faithful love in the morning, for I trust in You. Reveal to me the way I should go, because I long for You.

”Let me hear in the morning” is the primary translation. Surely hearing is an experience. But experience is not hearing even if hearing is experience.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Luke 1:14 (LEB). And {you will experience joy and exultation}, and many will rejoice at his birth.

Have joy and gladness. Can’t find it any other way outside of this one translation. You are fixated on the word and not on what it means. And ignoring the preponderance of the evidence in each that “experience” might not be “wrong” but it less specific and is not what it would appear that the majority of translators got from the verse.

Shall I continue? I agree that I am not half-way through this. But it looks more like a search for data that supports a conclusion. Confirmation bias.

[OBW]

I note that a couple of people went off recently insisting that this is all about finding Leeisms and LCM heretics.

Those people did not read the first post. This was not about the LCM. I will admit the origins of the term and thinking for many of us started there. But I doubt we keep it because we think Lee was right in that case. More because we have not considered it. And what we keep is not "LCM" or "Leeisms" per se.

I did mention Lee's book on the Experience of Christ in passing, but stated that critiquing the book was not intended. It was to define a term in a meaningful way and determine whether it is serving us well.

And certain of the LCDiscussions group have gone nuts trying to shut me up. One complained about my cold, analytical way of approaching things, then has more recently said that you can't just go by your experiences and feelings.

Seems that closing the discussion is necessary.

As I mentioned before, for those that are interested in the topic, engage it. Otherwise leave. And posting a list of verses after searching a lot of translations to find the word at all is hardly engaging the topic. I had already noted that the word was only barely in the Bible outside of certain versions. And if you search through enough never-heard-of translations, I guess you can find more.

But apparently few translators agree with those results. I went through roughly 1/3 of Igzy's list and none of it was instructive for maintaining the label. Should I keep it to myself until I have time to really study the rest? I don't think Igzy really thought about what he posted. He found the word so we thinks he won the argument.

And the proof that he insisted he had already given was really a restatement of a number of other phrases actually in the Bible as "has to mean experience." Something to consider. Not proof that it is so.

Don't like my demeanor? Seems to be on par with the kind of push-back I've been getting.

So what will they do now? Get indignant? Calm down? Engage the actual discussion? Decide it is not for them? I would hope for the two in the middle because I will find no answers doing this in a vacuum. But despite the number engaged here, it has remained mostly a vacuum because it is not about the topic, but insisting that it should not be talked about.