The Experience of Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't understand how you can post day in, day out, with such confidence about a diversity of topics, and then when considering the most basic item of the faith, i.e. do we experience God according to the scripture, you lose all assurance of faith.

The more I consider it, the more assurance I get that the talk about experiencing Christ is just spinning cobwebs. There were a lot of folk, back in the day, who said they experienced God according to scripture. They were a confident bunch: they said, "We have Moses." But they had nothing. They had feasts, they had new moons. They had sacrifices & prayers. And they had faith, all right, but it wasn't in God, but in their experiences.

The problem with the sentence "I experience Christ " is not in the "Christ" part, nor the "experience" part, but in the "I" part. We should know better by now. And if you say that you didn't claim the experience for yourself, just that the experience exists, I reply that if so it exists not for the talkers but the doers. Talk means naught. Those who experience aren't giving speeches about it. They know better. They don't trust themselves, and they have learned to look away from their experiences, both good and ill.. As soon as you talk of experiencing Christ you exclude yourself from it. You have spun a cobweb and crawled in, and built your house on shifting sands.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The more I consider it, the more assurance I get that the talk about experiencing Christ is just spinning cobwebs. There were a lot of folk, back in the day, who said they experienced God according to scripture. They were a confident bunch: they said, "We have Moses." But they had nothing. They had feasts, they had new moons. They had sacrifices & prayers. And they had faith, all right, but it wasn't in God, but in their experiences.

The problem with the sentence "I experience Christ " is not in the "Christ" part, nor the "experience" part, but in the "I" part. We should know better by now. And if you say that you didn't claim the experience for yourself, just that the experience exists, I reply that if so it exists not for the talkers but the doers. Talk means naught. Those who experience aren't giving speeches about it. They know better. They don't trust themselves, and they have learned to look away from their experiences, both good and ill.. As soon as you talk of experiencing Christ you exclude yourself from it. You have spun a cobweb and crawled in, and built your house on shifting sands.

I'll let you inform all the apostles about this. Perhaps you can set them all straight. As for me, I'm too confused, caught up in this forum spider cobweb since I thought the apostles talked about nothing but the experience of Christ in all their epistles.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'll let you inform all the apostles about this. Perhaps you can set them all straight. As for me, I'm too confused, caught up in this forum spider cobweb since I thought the apostles talked about nothing but the experience of Christ in all their epistles.

Isn't this a different - experience of Christ - than the one practiced in the LRM? and maybe the one Igzy is speaking of? I'm finding it hard to put my finger on it ... this experiencing of Christ. It's a moving target. Like when a big spider shakes its web (-aron - thanks for that). No one, it seems, is speaking of the same thing.

I think in the end it's quite probable that we all have different pictures in our heads of what experiences of Christ is, and we can't help but to be talking about something different.

After all, any and all experiences of Christ are completely and utterly subjective. Plus, for me it's been a long time since I've had the local church style of experiencing Christ. These days one of my high peek experiences of Christ is sitting out back, in the dark, and "joining" the cosmos while looking into the milky way (weather permitting). I couldn't see that "glory of God" in the city. Surely that's a different experiencing of Christ than anything y'all are talking about.

And didn't Jesus more or less say that the "switch" is in the closet? It's dark in there. Jesus is found in the darkness. It could be said that, he's the light in that darkness. And that, I suppose, well defines a certain type of experiencing Christ.

Is that what we're all trying to talk about?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'll let you inform all the apostles about this. Perhaps you can set them all straight.

Did Judas experience Christ? He walked with Him, talked with Him, even at one point kissed Him on the cheek.

In Luke 13:26 Jesus has them saying, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets"... but they got nothing. Don't trust your experiences. They are shifting sands.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Did Judas experience Christ? He walked with Him, talked with Him, even at one point kissed Him on the cheek.

Judas was like the personal valet of Jesus on earth. He had the money in order to arrange for accommodations for the entourage traveling with Jesus. Psalms say Judas was His close companion who lifted up his foot against Jesus. (41.9, 55.12-14)

The Bible never says, however, that Judas "experienced Christ" or that he even believed in the Christ. There is no proper experience of Christ without faith. (Heb 11.6 et al) Judas did indeed kiss Jesus on the cheek, and the soldiers later slapped Him on the cheek, and you are positing that these were also legitimate "experiences" of Christ?"

By your superior logic everyone throughout history that has ever claimed that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is also Satan himself, because that's what happened to Peter. And Jesus Himself said so!

You might want to rethink your position here.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible never says, however, that Judas "experienced Christ" or that he even believed in the Christ. There is no proper experience of Christ without faith. (Heb 11.6 et al) Judas did indeed kiss Jesus on the cheek, and the soldiers later slapped Him on the cheek, and you are positing that these were also legitimate "experiences" of Christ?"

By your superior logic everyone throughout history that has ever claimed that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is also Satan himself, because that's what happened to Peter. And Jesus Himself said so!

You might want to rethink your position here.

The Bible also doesn't say that John or Peter "experienced Christ". So what have we added, here? When Jesus says, "Get away from me, all you workers of evil! I don't know you!" Isn't that also an experience of Christ, just as valid an "experience" as any other? No? We need qualifiers, then? So what did the "experience of Christ" add? Answer: nothing. Except to captivate our minds with their mental constructions. Don't stay there.

When John wrote "And he carried me away in Spirit, onto a great and high mountain, and he showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, from God" was that an experience of Christ? When John tried to worship the angel as "Christ" the angel forbade it. So where was Christ, there? The "he" who carried John away in Spirit wasn't the Holy Spirit or Christ, but a ministering spirit. Is everything positive and good simply an experience of Christ? If so, well then fine. But it doesn't seem to me to be so, in the text. If the Bible could be simplified by our metric, then by all means it's well and good. But I don't see it. It's an oversimplification that ultimately needs so many exclusions and supporting clauses that it's really not worth the time it took to build it or hold it forth. Unless of course you're trying to sell books. That of course is different, then it's "cobweb city", baby! Rock on.

If you need "faith" to "experience Christ" then focus on the faith. If you look at the experience you'll sink just like Peter did.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The Bible also doesn't say that John or Peter "experienced Christ". So what have we added, here? When Jesus says, "Get away from me, all you workers of evil! I don't know you!" Isn't that also an experience of Christ, just as valid an "experience" as any other? No? We need qualifiers, then? So what did the "experience of Christ" add? Answer: nothing. Except to captivate our minds with their mental constructions. Don't stay there.

When John wrote "And he carried me away in Spirit, onto a great and high mountain, and he showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, from God" was that an experience of Christ? When John tried to worship the angel as "Christ" the angel forbade it. So where was Christ, there? The "he" who carried John away in Spirit wasn't the Holy Spirit or Christ, but a ministering spirit. Is everything positive and good simply an experience of Christ? If so, well then fine. But it doesn't seem to me to be so, in the text. If the Bible could be simplified by our metric, then by all means it's well and good. But I don't see it. It's an oversimplification that ultimately needs so many exclusions and supporting clauses that it's really not worth the time it took to build it or hold it forth. Unless of course you're trying to sell books. That of course is different, then it's "cobweb city", baby! Rock on.

If you need "faith" to "experience Christ" then focus on the faith. If you look at the experience you'll sink just like Peter did.

I don't think it is wise to "focus on faith" as you have suggested. People in the world often say "keep the faith," which has little meaning at all, basically "hang in there," or "cheer up, things will improve." I contend that faith without believing in Jesus Christ is no faith at all, at least not the faith of Abraham our father, and the faith of the Bible. Believing in Jesus, especially in our times of need, is by definition an experience of Christ. Real believing is a seeking experience of God as Jeremiah says, "you will seek Me and find Me, when you seek Me with all your heart."

You mention the "dangers" of not "experiencing" God in a real way. This is a very real danger for us. The book of Hebrews was written entirely with this thought in mind. The Hebrew believers had little genuine experience of Christ, and consequently were drifting back to their ancient Jewish traditions. They had drunk the milk of the word, but not eaten the solid food, not having their spiritual faculties exercised to discern the good from the worthless. Sure they had what they thought were numerous "experiences" with their traditions and celebrations, but they lacked faith. The Hebrews lacked Christ as experience. Did they have Christ? Yes, initially, apparently, but were seriously deficient in the full knowledge of His Son. They needed healthy spiritual exercise! (Now if that don't create a forum stir!)

The Lord said, "Get away from me, all you workers of evil! I don't know you!" Isn't it interesting that the omniscient Lord, the creator of all, would say this? How in the world could He not know them? Obviously what they did, how they served, etc. was not proper, not knowing His will. They may have had a lifetime of "experiences," yet little experience of Christ, in order to bring about His approvals.