The Experience of Christ

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

No, you don't get it. One simply doesn't stop and snap selfies whilst fighting lions in snowy pits. But once you see your fruits, your beloved "experiences of Christ" all vanish in a trice like Job's children, you'll get it. I have and I get it.

That's what I said. I agreed with you. Read my post again.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's what I said. I agreed with you. Read my post again.

Ohio, you wrote:

Then why would anyone say to "slow down and smell the roses?" Obviously when your life is at stake, fighting off bears and lions, that is not the best time to reminisce the good times, but when it is all over, get out your selfie stick and get a pic with your latest "kill."

The battle isn't over. Congratulating yourself partway through is like a yo-yo dieter congratulating themselves every time they drop 8 pounds. The congratulatory process itself is indicative of instability, and portents the coming relapse, or failure.

Peter said that the roaring lion is walking about, seeking to devour (1 Pet 5:8). If you don't get it, then you are either in some exalted state like Igzy, untouched and untouchable, or you are oblivious.

We only can assess whether and how much we have "gained" or "experienced" once the race is over and the battle won. And that assessment is only made by God. Until then, put down the pom-poms.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Ohio, you wrote:

The battle isn't over. Congratulating yourself partway through is like a yo-yo dieter congratulating themselves every time they drop 8 pounds. The congratulatory process itself is indicative of instability, and portents the coming relapse, or failure.

Peter said that the roaring lion is walking about, seeking to devour (1 Pet 5:8). If you don't get it, then you are either in some exalted state like Igzy, untouched and untouchable, or you are oblivious.

We only can assess whether and how much we have "gained" or "experienced" once the race is over and the battle won. And that assessment is only made by God. Until then, put down the pom-poms.

aron, you sure have taken a sour turn as of late. Sorry if I contributed in any way. I have tried to address your complaints about using the word "experience of Christ." I have chased down the rabbit holes of a lion fight, the Judas kiss, a yo-yo dieter, etc. and each time either misunderstanding or watching you move on. You seem to be so anti-Lee, that a basic statement of "experiencing Christ" causes you to suit up for battle.

Now you bash Igzy and I as being in a "faultless, untouched and untouchable, oblivious and exalted state." These comments really take this discussion outside the realm of meaningful discourse. From my distant vantage, it seems that ... once again ... poster bitterness against Lee is turned on those whose views may differ slightly. That's unfortunate, but just how it is sometimes, so I would like to end my thread discussion here. Can't see anything good coming out of it. Peace. Sorry.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[B] I would like to end my thread discussion here. Can't see anything good coming out of it. Peace. Sorry.

But really bro Ohio what good has come out of experiencing Christ in the local church? Where's the fruit?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But really bro Ohio what good has come out of experiencing Christ in the local church? Where's the fruit?

II Corinthians 4.17-18 "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, works for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Matthew 6.19-21 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

II Corinthians 4.17-18 "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, works for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Matthew 6.19-21 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Okay. But where's the fruits spoken of in Gal. 5? Is one of them exclusivity?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

But really bro Ohio what good has come out of experiencing Christ in the local church? Where's the fruit?

Well, I would say one of the things is Ohio himself. I would say all the believers who genuinely love the Lord are fruit. Their experience in the LCM of Christ stamped in them an indelible desire for a deep relationship with the Lord. Many have gone different ways but continue to be faithful. Yes, the LCM system damaged them and many. But the genuine experience of Christ was not a product of the LCM system. It was a product of the Spirit and still is.

Sometimes this board reminds me of the French Revolution. Surely the French aristocracy and monarchy were corrupt. But the rabid desire for revenge left the guillotines exhausted and the street of France running red with blood. Many of the executed were simply unfortunate victims of the revolutionary fervor. 40,000 died without trial or waiting for trial. Yet the revolutionaries thought they were just.

Obviously that's an extreme example of the vengeful backlash of being wronged, but let's not repeat the principle.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I would say one of the things is Ohio himself. I would say all the believers who genuinely love the Lord are fruit. Their experience in the LCM of Christ stamped in them an indelible desire for a deep relationship with the Lord. Many have gone different ways but continue to be faithful. Yes, the LCM system damaged them and many. But the genuine experience of Christ was not a product of the LCM system. It was a product of the Spirit and still is.

Well experiencing Christ in the local church didn't do me any good. Nor did it do any good for all the others I know that came out of the LC. Except, it seems, those that haven't managed to get the local church completely out of their system yet.

But I understand. It takes time, years, decades, to get the local church out of our systems. And it's hard for us to admit we were/are wrong. That takes time too.

But I say, just look around, and be honest, what good has experiencing Christ done for those you know of?

Then again, come to think of it, my old friend from 2nd grade, who was an elder in the local church, is now experiencing Christ in sweat lodges, as a Native American Shaman. Only he doesn't call it experiencing Christ. He calls it experiencing the Great Spirit. What do I know? It may be the same experience, by different names. They both prolly kick in the same dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, and endorphins, and produce the same euphoric, mystical, oceanic, heavenly, sensation, consciousness and exulted experience. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking those natural occurring drugs in our brains. I guess we all need to get our fix one way or another. So, more power to those experiencing Christ ... become intoxicated with it. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't accomplish anything but good feelings ... which can be good just on its own. I'll grant that much.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well experiencing Christ in the local church didn't do me any good. Nor did it do any good for all the others I know that came out of the LC.

Well, surprise, now you know some!

Originally Posted by awareness

Except, it seems, those that haven't managed to get the local church completely out of their system yet.

To me trying to eradicate every vestige of the LCM is a waste of time. How do you know doing so is really going to make you happy? I saw this transvestite today. He may have had a sex change, I don't know. He was moving into middle-age and he was one of the ugliest "women" I've ever seen. He had tried to eradicate all vestiges of being a man. But he couldn't do it. And he never will be able to. Eventually that has to result in unhappiness, or admitting such extreme measures are futile.

Trying to "get the local church completely out of [your] system" is a silly goal. How do you know when you've done it? When you hate everything about the LCM, including the idea of experiencing Christ? Is that how you know? And when you think you've reached that goal, what do you have? Do you have what God wants you to be? Is that really how you look at things?

Why not rather just seek God, and let him take away things and add them? Why declare war on your past? That's not the way to get where you need to be. Jesus's blood covers your past, you are saved by grace and fully accepted. You don't need to eradicate anything. You just need to focus on him and the positive and let him do the work of fixing you. None of us are wise enough to discern what needs to be eradicated. "Eradicate" sounds like one of those words Witness Lee would use. It's an extreme.

At some point you have to make peace with your past. Like it or not, it's one of the things which defines you. You don't have to run away from it.

But I say, just look around, and be honest, what good has experiencing Christ done for those you know of?

I don't know what anyone else means by experiencing Christ. I just know what it means to me. And to me, experiencing Christ has changed me. It works in me the fruits of the Spirit.

If you say experiencing Christ never did anything for you then you weren't really experiencing Christ. And if you don't think we can experience Christ that means you don't think God is knowable. If you know God you've experienced Christ, because Christ is the way to God.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then again, come to think of it, my old friend from 2nd grade, who was an elder in the local church, is now experiencing Christ in sweat lodges, as a Native American Shaman. Only he doesn't call it experiencing Christ. He calls it experiencing the Great Spirit. What do I know? It may be the same experience, by different names.

Wrong forum Harold. Way out there my man...even for Alt Views...way out there. But if you want to continue on about Native American Shamans, the Great Spirit and such I might consider letting you ramble on about such nonsense over there in la la land. Give these last few posts a look here and then kiss them goodbye....

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

aron, you sure have taken a sour turn as of late. Sorry if I contributed in any way. I have tried to address your complaints about using the word "experience of Christ." I have chased down the rabbit holes of a lion fight, the Judas kiss, a yo-yo dieter, etc. and each time either misunderstanding or watching you move on. You seem to be so anti-Lee, that a basic statement of "experiencing Christ" causes you to suit up for battle.

Now you bash Igzy and I as being in a "faultless, untouched and untouchable, oblivious and exalted state." These comments really take this discussion outside the realm of meaningful discourse. From my distant vantage, it seems that ... once again ... poster bitterness against Lee is turned on those whose views may differ slightly. That's unfortunate, but just how it is sometimes, so I would like to end my thread discussion here. Can't see anything good coming out of it. Peace. Sorry.

To Ohio,

In my defense, you posted

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have been watching too many commercials on TV.

They used to say that "sex sells," but over the course of time, they have found that "stupid sells" even more.

Pay careful attention to what you see. And read on forums.

a long time ago and I didn't respond in kind. What is the "crazy eyes" or "nutty face" moniker supposed to represent? Me, or my ideas? What is the comment "stupid sells" supposed to represent: me or my ideas? I didn't get all in a huff about it. I carried on. Suddenly when the attention turns to the quality of your ideas, you get offended. Not only that, but you're perfectly happy to "bash" WL, WN, the Blendeds, or TC or whomever, but when the attention turns to the deficiencies of your ideas you get insulted. Think about that for a second... it looks like the argument is slipping away from you, and suddenly you don't want to be part of the conversation any more.

I have consistently carried one theme, and that is that trying to assess one's experiences while partway through them is vanity. So the existence of "the experience of Christ" is something that can be posited, ontologically, i.e. something that exists. Water exists, and water is "wet", therefore when I take a shower I get wet. Right? Christ exists, and we Christians hear and obey, therefore we experience Christ. Right? I simply said, So what? What if anything does it add? Zip. Does talking about "the experience of Christ" equal an additional experience of Christ? No, I say. So, what does it take away, to hold it up as a one-size-fits-all metric of the Christian journey? A lot, I say.

So I carried it through rabbit holes, eh? The story of a man fighting a lion was from the OT. That man was one of David's three "mighty men". He didn't get called mighty until the fight was over. The fight isn't over. The "food" analogy came from Igzy. I responded, arguing that by saying "food" (or writing it, or reading it) it's not the same thing as the object itself or the experience of consumption. One has positive caloric (nutritional) value, one has negative. And Jesus also said, "Don't be hearers of the word but doers" -- I had pointed out the difference between saying and doing, and Igzy replied that it was if I'd said that "food does not exist", when I never implied such a thing. I just said that ideas of fallen but redeemed sinners about God's word, and the divine reality the words present are not always synonymous. Ideas without action are vain. To say, today, "I experience Christ", to me, is like saying "I have laid hold", when Paul wisely said, "I have not yet laid hold" (Phil 3:12,13). Orson Welles (I'm dating myself) said, "We do not judge any wine before its time". Anyone who claims to "experience Christ" today is making judgments that belong to God, and made at the end of the race. To me it seems presumptuous, pure and simple.

The yo-yo dieter remark is likewise not a rabbit hole. I saw Oprah Winfrey trying to lose weight, and she had a big celebration on national tv on her show, when she could finally shoe-horn herself back into her slinky jeans. But 8 months later she was pudgy again. I realized that the very act of self-congratulation was indicative of instability (need for approval) which ultimately wouldn't work, and back to the binge eating again. Surprise, surprise. Someone so smart, talented, driven and successful as Oprah couldn't see this. And at the base of it, that's my critique: we simply can't see clearly enough to make true and valid assessments. So why waste our time doing so? Unless we want to sell books, and so forth. Today I know something of WL's motive, in it all. What is yours? I guess we won't find out.

What's my motive? I don't like the idea. Igzy had told OBW that he was in the minority and the burden of proof was on him. No, he'd said it was a bad idea and he didn't want to "eat the pudding", to use Igzy's phrase. Now Ohio and OBW are at least temporarily gone, and Igzy is on one side and I on the other. No more minority.

Igzy says that he can tell what is a genuine experience of Christ and what is illusion, that this comes with maturity. I say that circumspection comes with maturity, and we no longer presume to claim things that don't belong to us. In the LCs we would say, "In Christianity they believe into Jesus, and hope to go to heaven, but here we 'experience Christ'!" And we would all smile and nod and say, "amen". But looking back it was illusion. It was something WL taught, and WL was God's oracle so it was real, so we thought. I'm now out of the LC and still don't see any substance behind the expression. It's like saying that a tower, half-built, is a tower. No, it's half a tower. Jesus said that if you don't finish building it, people will come by and mock you. Don't give speeches about your tower-buiding prowess, half-way through building it.

I think that I've been consistent in my argument. If I've been insulting or belittling then I apologize. If I've projected my own failures and loss onto others, I'll admit that. It's entirely possible -- maybe I have a string of half-built towers behind me, and I'm blaming Igzy for his, when he doesn't have any! In fact, that is my point (yet again!): that we are incapable of making objective assessments of what is in front of us or around us or in us. Here on this thread, I simply react to Igzy and Ohio, and vice versa. But I don't presume that my reaction perforce equals objective reality. I'm still warped, or colored, by the fall of Adam, and my own unresolved issues. Those issues didn't vanish completely the day I said, "Lord Jesus". And there is no day here in the flesh of sin (so I argue) that we're so "mature" that our ideas, arguments, or assessments take on oracular status. Those who think that all their discernment issues are resolved and what they say equals truth (i.e. "today I am experiencing Christ!") may want to check scripture again. There are simply too many cautionary tales littering the Bible, for my comfort. Those are words of warning and OBW was pointing out something like this, and I agreed with him. I still agree with his point.

And I am not saying that confessing Jesus is vain. I have believed and confessed, and I try to obey. But I don't make value judgments about my progress, while on the way.

[aron]

So the apostles were writing about "the experience of Christ" in the NT? So, when Jesus said, "Get behind Me, Satan" to Peter, was that an experience of Christ? When Peter went out and wept in the darkness was that an experience of Christ? And if so, are the proverbial "goats" hearing, "Go into darkness, you who are accursed" having an experience of Christ?

If every possible experience is an experience of Christ, what does it add? I say, nothing. But, if we need strings of qualifiers to keep the idea from dissolving, what does it add? I say, nothing. If we meet together and simply try to say, "Today we're experiencing Christ", what are we looking away from, that we should be attending to? I say, a lot. That's why I say it's a vapor, a cobweb. It has the appearance of reality with none of the substance.

I think the following by Igzy at least partly looks to my arguments on this thread:

To me trying to eradicate every vestige of the LCM is a waste of time. How do you know doing so is really going to make you happy? I saw this transvestite today. He may have had a sex change, I don't know. He was moving into middle-age and he was one of the ugliest "women" I've ever seen. He had tried to eradicate all vestiges of being a man. But he couldn't do it. And he never will be able to. Eventually that has to result in unhappiness, or admitting such extreme measures are futile.

Trying to "get the local church completely out of [your] system" is a silly goal. How do you know when you've done it? When you hate everything about the LCM, including the idea of experiencing Christ? Is that how you know? And when you think you've reached that goal, what do you have? Do you have what God wants you to be? Is that really how you look at things?

Why not rather just seek God, and let him take away things and add them? Why declare war on your past? That's not the way to get where you need to be. Jesus's blood covers your past, you are saved by grace and fully accepted. You don't need to eradicate anything. You just need to focus on him and the positive and let him do the work of fixing you. None of us are wise enough to discern what needs to be eradicated. "Eradicate" sounds like one of those words Witness Lee would use. It's an extreme.

At some point you have to make peace with your past. Like it or not, it's one of the things which defines you. You don't have to run away from it..

I have no doubt that I've written ugly and offensive things, and don't pretend to be perfected. I try not to be a quarrelsome know-it-all who assumes that everything I say is fully thought out, and clear. And I try to give the grace to others' deficiencies that I expect for my own. And that includes Lee and the Blendeds. But bad ideas are bad ideas.

Surely I've been insulting to some of the LC faithful, and to others as well. But at least I can say when I see a worthless idea. The argument for the "experience of Christ" doesn't look like it can hold up on its own. It doesn't matter who's holding it forth. Igzy says we have to make peace with the past. I have the peace, today, to say that this isn't about me or Igzy or Witness Lee or the LC or my unresolved issues. It's just a bad idea. If there is such a thing, ontologically, as a "bad idea", then that of "the experience of Christ" as I've seen it put forth, both here and elsewhere, qualifies. It just cannot survive on its own. The more you look at it, the more it shrinks away to nothing.