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Old 02-09-2016, 05:11 PM   #1
testallthings
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Default Re: Putting To Test The Recovery Version

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
OK. I never did get to how Darby treated Muller.

Also, I am not completely "negative" on Darby, or Lee, to be honest and fair. For years I admired them as "Ministers of the Age." The Brethren historian F. Roy Coad (A History of the Brethren Movement) summarized for me the best description of J. Darby, and W. Lee too for that matter, "with John Darby there is so much good to say, and so much more wrong."

It was not until I understood Darby fairly, that I could really understand Lee. If I sound too harsh on these two ministers, then I apologize to all. It is only because I excessively eulogized them for decades, and perhaps I now am only attempting to rectify past errors. Both of them did much work for the Lord, yet like Diotrephes, they had to be first among the brethren.




I was not offended by your remarks. Actually it is I who don't want to offend you by my future post. I am sure you see things in another way because you read mainly books by writer closed to the Open Brethren and I read those written by the Close Brethren. I am taking my time, going through things I read in the past and things I didn't read in the past, and considering of including a little study on W. Lee most aberrant teaching concerning the humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ. On this point I am really sad and outraged. On other points I could really be more lenient, considering them just different views, but if anyone mars the blessed Person of Christ he would be treated accordingly.


Would you please consider to read some of this articles before I give my "history"?



1. STEM Publishing: Hamilton Smith: Open Brethren,

http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../OPENBRET.html

2. STEM Publishing: William Kelly: The Doctrine of Christ, and Bethesdaism.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../dochrist.html


3. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: The Bethesda Circular
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15009E.html


4. STEM Publishing: W. Trotter: The Origin of (so-called) Open-Brethrenism.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../Openbret.html



5. STEM Publishing : Magazines : The Bible Treasury : Volume 13 : "Open" "Exclusivism"
http://www.stempublishing.com/magazi...clusivism.html


6. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: Indifference to Christ: or Bethesdaism - extracted from a private letter
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...IA/20013E.html


7. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: A Plain Statement of the Doctrine on the Sufferings of our blessed Lord propounded in some recent tracts, in extracts taken from the Author's writings.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15004E.html


8. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: The refusal of Mr. Newton to meet the brethren.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...IA/20003E.html

9. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: Notice of the Statement and Acknowledgment of Error circulated by Mr. Newton.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15005E.html

10 STEM Publishing: C. H. Mackintosh: Fifteenth Letter to a Friend. http://www.stempublishing.com/author.../CHM_15TH.html

11. STEM Publishing: J. N. Darby: Notice of the Statement and Acknowledgment of Error circulated by Mr. Newton.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/15005E.html
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: Putting To Test The Recovery Version

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I was not offended by your remarks. Actually it is I who don't want to offend you by my future post. I am sure you see things in another way because you read mainly books by writer closed to the Open Brethren and I read those written by the Close Brethren. I am taking my time, going through things I read in the past and things I didn't read in the past, and considering of including a little study on W. Lee most aberrant teaching concerning the humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ. On this point I am really sad and outraged. On other points I could really be more lenient, considering them just different views, but if anyone mars the blessed Person of Christ he would be treated accordingly.
TestAllThings I was a supporter of Lee and Darby for 3 decades. I am not a biased and ignorant bystander on this subject. I studied both sides of the story when it comes to the Brethren and the Recovery. Many of the linked articles which you have posted I have already read 10 years ago when I researched the first Brethren split in depth. On my shelf I still have marked up copies of these articles with comments in the margins. If you only read the Exclusive side of events, then you will never know what really happened. That is why I mentioned in brief what occurred among some of the senior exclusives in 1866.

And, by the way, I don't think you should link anything by Wm. Kelly. Have you never read that the Darby exclusives dumped Kelly just before Darby died? Anyways, Stem is an exclusive publisher no different from LSM, DCP, and afaithfulword.org. You will never find an accurate account of history from any of them. For those contemporary readers who have waded through some of the dissembling vitriol which has filled the archives at afaithfulword.org during the quarantine of TC and the GLA, you will find these articles to be in the same vein.

Let's be honest here. It is a fact that most of the Brethren scholars ended up in the exclusive camp. But just because they were prolific, knowledgeable writers, does not mean they were more mature or spiritual than their "open" counterparts. For years I tried unsuccessfully to find some writings by Henry Craik, Muller's partner in Bethesda. He was a true scholar, but the open brethren just did not archive their writings as the exclusives did.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: Putting To Test The Recovery Version

To "TestAllThings" is to do exactly that. Referencing a particular viewpoint is lopsided. It is exactly what LSM does. To test something you must examine the evidence from various perspectives as Ohio has mentioned. Not just something you happen to agree with. I suggest expanding your study to include open brethren and others. Of course I am assuming that your study is strictly "closed", based upon your list of reference material
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Old 02-09-2016, 11:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: Putting To Test The Recovery Version

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To "TestAllThings" is to do exactly that. Referencing a particular viewpoint is lopsided. It is exactly what LSM does. To test something you must examine the evidence from various perspectives as Ohio has mentioned. Not just something you happen to agree with. I suggest expanding your study to include open brethren and others. Of course I am assuming that your study is strictly "closed", based upon your list of reference material


I agree with you. What I have done is only partial. The goal as you said is to to examine the evidence from various perspective, possibly from eyewitnesses of the things that happened at the time of the split (W. Kelly, too). I already confessed that my "history", as you noticed comes from the Exclusive Brethren. So to really test all things I would be grateful if someone could provide links to any materials written by Newton, Muller or others who were involved at that time. I will suspend any definite judgement until I get the other side from eyewitnesses.

"Back in 2003-06 I read everything I could find on the Brethren in an attempt to understand what was happening to us in the Recovery. By then it became apparent that the Blendeds were going to quarantine the GLA." (Ohio)


I hope you will not be offended br. Ohio, but when I read about the split between Darby and Newton I didn't try to project their history in my church situation, neither I tried to understand what was happening to us (you) in the Recovery. I didn't see Darby as W. Lee or the BB, ascribing to Darby all the negative things the saints in GLA might have found in them.
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Old 02-10-2016, 04:13 AM   #5
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Default Re: Putting To Test The Recovery Version

A WORD OF CLARIFICATION


First I am limiting my concern to what happened between Darby and Newton, and why.

Second, what happened between Darby and Muller, and why.

That's all. So please send your links, regarding writing written by the parties involved at that time or closed to that time.
Thanks.
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Old 02-10-2016, 08:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: Putting To Test The Recovery Version

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I hope you will not be offended br. Ohio, but when I read about the split between Darby and Newton I didn't try to project their history in my church situation, neither I tried to understand what was happening to us (you) in the Recovery. I didn't see Darby as W. Lee or the BB, ascribing to Darby all the negative things the saints in GLA might have found in them.
No, not offended at all.

The Brethren were the forerunners to Nee and Lee's LC movement. It is not just I who have stated this, but Nee, Lee, and even outside historians have made this same conclusion. My own study of the first Brethren split confirmed this. I have stated my views on a number of occasions, and may do so again in the future. I have literally seen hundreds of Brethren views or characteristics, both Open and Exclusive, played out in the LC's, especially in the two recent "storms" centered on the evictions of John Ingalls and Titus Chu.

I have also long ago concluded that, while these forums can convey useful dialog, they do little to change one's deep-seated views. Therefore, I see little value at furthering the attempts to persuade you to the contrary, especially when the discussions are so open-ended. The Newton/Muller excommunications have forever defined the Brethren, and dozens of books have been written on the subject. Besides, this is your thread about "Putting To Test The Recovery Version."
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Old 02-10-2016, 05:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: Putting To Test The Recovery Version

GOING BACK HOME?





THE LORD JESUS REJECTED BY THE JEWS WILL BE RECEIVED BY THE GENTILE



Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. (KJV)


The footnote on Mat. 12:18.3, RcV, says, “ This indicates clearly that because of the Jews' rejection, the heavenly King with His heavenly kingdom would turn to the Gentiles, and the Gentiles would receive Him and trust in Him (v. 21).”


THE LORD JESUS REJECTED BY ALL



Mat 14:1 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus,
Mat 14:2 And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.
Mat 14:3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
Mat 14:4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.
Mat 14:5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.
Mat 14:6 But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.
Mat 14:7 Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask.
Mat 14:8 And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.
Mat 14:9 And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her.
Mat 14:10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.
Mat 14:11 And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother.
Mat 14:12 And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus.
Mat 14:13 When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities. (KJV)

Footnote 14:10.1, RcV, says, "In 12:24 the Jewish religious leaders, representing the entire nation of the Jews, rejected the heavenly King to the uttermost. This forced Him to forsake His natural relationship with them (12:46-50). Then in 13:53-58 He was rejected by the Galileans also. Now in ch. 14, Matthew, in his arranging of events according to doctrine, unveils to us how Gentile politics treated the King's forerunner. It was evil and full of corruption and darkness. To this point Matthew has given a full picture of the Jews', the Galileans', and the Gentiles' rejection of the ministry of the kingdom of the heavens."



I am sure the readers of this post have noticed the incongruence of these two footnotes. In chapter 12 the Lord Jesus “would turn to the Gentiles, and the Gentiles would receive Him and trust in Him.” In chapter 13 we are told that Jews, the Galileans, and the Gentiles rejected His ministry.
So did the Gentiles receive Him or not? If, according to Lee, Jesus was rejected by the Jews so He turned to the Gentile, after even the Gentiles rejected His ministry where will Jesus turn? He could just go back to the Father and admit His complete “defeat”. No, wait. He could hide in a boat (the church according to footnote on Mat. 14:13.1).

Imagine that! The Lord of the Universe afraid of rejection! How did he enter Jerusalem? No, not on a donkey, but in a boat!
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