ETERNAL TORMENT IS FALSE TEACHING WHAT SAY YE'?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Not at all. I try to practice the philosophical principle of charity toward them and toward you. That includes putting the best possible construction on your opponent's views. What I usually see on Internet forums is the opposite practice of putting the worst possible construction on the opponent's views. Furthermore, I assume that you and they are persons of good will unless I see evidence to the contrary. In times like of conflict such as we are living in today, don't you find that refreshing?

Deluded or not, I actually believe I am seeking the Truth. I would like to believe a universalist view not unlike that of the early church father Origen wherein everyone is eventually saved. But, alas, I have found the metaphysical skepticism of commentators like David Hume and Immanuel Kant to be persuasive. Sooo, my days of metaphysical dogma appear to be over, or at least on a long sabbatical.

Searching for the Truth is more about learning to listen and know our heart/spirit, than an outward search for knowledge. I don't think you will find it on this forum or any other place that is not your own heart. Because the Truth is in our heart/spirit. Once we find that, then we can figure out all the doctrine in our mind later on. So I think the Truth is something you already have, you just need to tap into it to convince your mind.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Searching for the Truth is more about learning to listen and know our heart/spirit, than an outward search for knowledge. I don't think you will find it on this forum or any other place that is not your own heart. Because the Truth is in our heart/spirit. Once we find that, then we can figure out all the doctrine in our mind later on. So I think the Truth is something you already have, you just need to tap into it to convince your mind.

I agree with the notion that the truth is in us. But the idea that we are going to tap into it now and use our minds later is wrong according to my experience. That reminds me of Witness Lee's "turn from your mind to your spirit" formula. I tried it for 13 years. It didn't work.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree with the notion that the truth is in us. But the idea that we are going to tap into it now and use our minds later is wrong according to my experience. That reminds me of Witness Lee's "turn from your mind to your spirit" formula. I tried it for 13 years. It didn't work.

It would only be proved wrong if you have found the Truth by not tapping into it. When you find the Truth by not tapping into it, then you can say it is wrong according to your experience.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It would only be proved wrong if you have found the Truth by not tapping into it. When you find the Truth by not tapping into it, then you can say it is wrong according to your experience.

That's not the problem I'm having with your proposition. Rather it's your idea of using the mind later. It seems to me there is no truth without the mind. Truth occurs when the contents of the mind corresponds to reality. Falsity is when the contents of the mind don't.

Tapping is a metaphor. Like tapping into a water supply. When an image in your mind corresponds to reality, then you have "tapped" truth. Now the reality that your mind corresponds to could be a feeling or emotion or intuition. Or it could be a perception. That's how it seems to me.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

That's not the problem I'm having with your proposition. Rather it's your idea of using the mind later. It seems to me there is no truth without the mind. Truth occurs when the contents of the mind corresponds to reality. Falsity is when the contents of the mind don't.

Tapping is a metaphor. Like tapping into a water supply. When an image in your mind corresponds to reality, then you have "tapped" truth. Now the reality that your mind corresponds to could be a feeling or emotion or intuition. Or it could be a perception. That's how it seems to me.

Humans all have something called an inner voice which is independent of the mind. With practice we can learn to discern between the two. The inner voice may be realized during a hazardous situation, before the mind has had time to catch up. I think the truth is to be found in this inner voice rather than the mind which catches up later.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Humans all have something called an inner voice which is independent of the mind. With practice we can learn to discern between the two. The inner voice may be realized during a hazardous situation, before the mind has had time to catch up. I think the truth is to be found in this inner voice rather than the mind which catches up later.

What you are describing sounds like the intuition i.e. the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning. If we define mind as "the faculty of consciousness and thought" as it often is, then in so far as one is conscious of such "inner voice" such as you describe we are conscious of it in the mind. When you state " we can learn to discern between the two" what faculty of discernment are you referring to other then the mind? In other words, where do you experience the "inner voice" other then in your mind? Perhaps the inner voice may be realized in the mind during a hazardous situation, before one's thoughts have had time to catch up. Nevertheless, both the voice and the thoughts occur in the mind or synonymously in one's consciousness.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

What you are describing sounds like the intuition i.e. the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning. If we define mind as "the faculty of consciousness and thought" as it often is, then in so far as one is conscious of such "inner voice" such as you describe we are conscious of it in the mind. When you state " we can learn to discern between the two" what faculty of discernment are you referring to other then the mind? In other words, where do you experience the "inner voice" other then in your mind? Perhaps the inner voice may be realized in the mind during a hazardous situation, before one's thoughts have had time to catch up. Nevertheless, both the voice and the thoughts occur in the mind or synonymously in one's consciousness.

It's hard to define. Just that I think my experience and the experience of others (not necessarily Christians) is they discern something more than or deeper than the mind, of which they use various means to "tap into" it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Humans all have something called an inner voice which is independent of the mind. With practice we can learn to discern between the two. The inner voice may be realized during a hazardous situation, before the mind has had time to catch up. I think the truth is to be found in this inner voice rather than the mind which catches up later.

I've heard this called the still small voice (1 Kings 19:12) but the Bible reference seems to indicate that it was external not internal.

I call it "the awareness reading these words at the moment." Henry David Thoreau, who's famous for finding the ineffable in nature (not in church) also recognized an inner observer that seemed separate from himself.

And it is true that many times our minds have trouble of keeping up with what we experience, sometimes never figuring it out, sometimes requiring detective work.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've heard this called the still small voice (1 Kings 19:12) but the Bible reference seems to indicate that it was external not internal.

I call it "the awareness reading these words at the moment." Henry David Thoreau, who's famous for finding the ineffable in nature (not in church) also recognized an inner observer that seemed separate from himself.

And it is true that many times our minds have trouble of keeping up with what we experience, sometimes never figuring it out, sometimes requiring detective work.

The kol demamah dakah is recognized to be the speaking that is within our heart.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Searching for the Truth is more about learning to listen and know our heart/spirit, than an outward search for knowledge. I don't think you will find it on this forum or any other place that is not your own heart. Because the Truth is in our heart/spirit. Once we find that, then we can figure out all the doctrine in our mind later on. So I think the Truth is something you already have, you just need to tap into it to convince your mind.

Like they say in the Eastern religions : You are what you seek.

And by the way, they don't have this hell problem over there. They didn't have the pleasure of meeting Jesus ; that's responsible for our present day conception of hell. To them, the soul lives on eternally, but reincarnates, around and around, until enough lessons are learned to earn 'em heaven. But I guess that's a kind of hell. This life kinda proves that. More of them would be a real and living hell. Maybe worse than fire. I don't know, cuz I've never burned and burned forever and ever, without being cremated.

But according to the person that offered the OP of this thread, I guess I might have an opportunity to find out. Maybe not, cuz he don't believe in hell. He's like a JW.

[awareness]

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

Like they say in the Eastern religions : You are what you seek.

And by the way, they don't have this hell problem over there. They didn't have the pleasure of meeting Jesus ; that's responsible for our present day conception of hell. To them, the soul lives on eternally, but reincarnates, around and around, until enough lessons are learned to earn 'em heaven. But I guess that's a kind of hell. This life kinda proves that. More of them would be a real and living hell. Maybe worse than fire. I don't know, cuz I've never burned and burned forever and ever, without being cremated.

But according to the person that offered the OP of this thread, I guess I might have an opportunity to find out. Maybe not, cuz he don't believe in hell. He's like a JW.

We all will have the oppertunity to find out if we don't open our earlids and listen.

I don't wish any evil on you Awareness. In fact you are on the top of my daily prayer list.

Enjoy.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=8fXFIqHS9Ho

[awareness]

Originally Posted by manna-man

We all will have the oppertunity to find out if we don't open our earlids and listen.

I don't wish any evil on you Awareness. In fact you are on the top of my daily prayer list.

Thanks Jr. you've been in my prayers too.

Now let's get back to the joys of eternal torment.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Like they say in the Eastern religions : You are what you seek.

And by the way, they don't have this hell problem over there. They didn't have the pleasure of meeting Jesus ; that's responsible for our present day conception of hell. To them, the soul lives on eternally, but reincarnates, around and around, until enough lessons are learned to earn 'em heaven. But I guess that's a kind of hell. This life kinda proves that. More of them would be a real and living hell. Maybe worse than fire. I don't know, cuz I've never burned and burned forever and ever, without being cremated.

But according to the person that offered the OP of this thread, I guess I might have an opportunity to find out. Maybe not, cuz he don't believe in hell. He's like a JW.

The article is not about the existence of hell but whether or not the soul is indestructible.

Actually there's two main aspects. One is the imprecise translation of the word hell in the English bible. The other is whether the soul is indestructible or not. I think most Christians nowadays know that hell can refer to Hades or Gehenna, I mean I used to hear it sometimes in non-JW denominational churches.