Teaching on Calling on the Name of the Lord

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Which groups practice prophesying then? Which denominations? Of the small percentage that believe prophesying and prophets still exist today, these ones would not give any time in the meetings or church service for prophesying. It's almost 100% or 99% of Christian that does not prophesy.

You claim that 99%-100% of Christians don't prophesy, yet that kind of blanket statement neglects the fact that many (or even possibly the majority) don't have the gift to do so. In all fairness, I don't know what percentage of Christians have that gift, however, I don't think there is any reason to assume that most do.

The way that prophesying is evidenced is very simple. Whenever a prophet speaks, then prophesying is being practiced. I think people need to move away from this idea that prophesying is evidenced by the number of people speaking. Unless you know who all possess that gift, then how can you claim that people should be practicing it but aren't? That is the problem with what Lee taught. When you claim these outrageous numbers, saying that 99% of Christians do not prophesy, that is based on the false assumption that 99% have the gift of prophecy and aren't using it.

I do acknowledge your concern that some who should be functioning in that way aren't. It's a legitimate concern, and perhaps Christian leaders do need to make sure there is more opportunity for people to speak. But consider the flip side to this. I can say with absolute confidence that in the LC, people are pressured to function outside of their individual gifts. To me, that is a far more severe problem than a simple 'idleness' when it comes to functioning. People refuse to function are mainly hurting themselves. But in the LC sometimes you see people speaking who shouldn't be or saying things that aren't of benefit to everyone. That is a more pressing problem because it effects everyone in the group.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

You claim that 99%-100% of Christians don't prophesy, yet that kind of blanket statement neglects the fact that many (or even possibly the majority) don't have the gift to do so. In all fairness, I don't know what percentage of Christians have that gift, however, I don't think there is any reason to assume that most do.

The way that prophesying is evidenced is very simple. Whenever a prophet speaks, then prophesying is being practiced. I think people need to move away from this idea that prophesying is evidenced by the number of people speaking. Unless you know who all possess that gift, then how can you claim that people should be practicing it but aren't? That is the problem with what Lee taught. When you claim these outrageous numbers, saying that 99% of Christians do not prophesy, that is based on the false assumption that 99% have the gift of prophecy and aren't using it.

I do acknowledge your concern that some who should be functioning in that way aren't. It's a legitimate concern, and perhaps Christian leaders do need to make sure there is more opportunity for people to speak. But consider the flip side to this. I can say with absolute confidence that in the LC, people are pressured to function outside of their individual gifts. To me, that is a far more severe problem than a simple 'idleness' when it comes to functioning. People refuse to function are mainly hurting themselves. But in the LC sometimes you see people speaking who shouldn't be or saying things that aren't of benefit to everyone. That is a more pressing problem because it effects everyone in the group.

We don't need a gift of prophesy to prophesy, just like we don't need a gift of evangelism to evangelize.
1 Corinthians 14:31 says we may all prophesy one by one, for edification. This does not mean everyone has a gift of prophesy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We don't need a gift of prophesy to prophesy, just like we don't need a gift of evangelism to evangelize.
1 Corinthians 14:31 says we may all prophesy one by one, for edification. This does not mean everyone has a gift of prophesy.

You have neither read the Bible nor my post.

This word is not to all members but to "all the prophets."

But you cannot interpret this properly because Lee did not, and you take Lee's interpretation over the plain reading of the scriptures.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have neither read the Bible nor my post.
This word is not to all members but to "all the prophets."
But you cannot interpret this properly because Lee did not, and you take Lee's interpretation over the plain reading of the scriptures.

So who is "my brothers" in this verse, it is not just the 2-3 prophets:
1 Cor 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy.

Paul is telling everyone to desire to prophesy.

It seems that prophesy is beneficial to the church, so the more the better.

And if you want the "plain reading of the scriptures", I hope you take note of this verse:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 1 Cor 14:34

You cannot insist on only 2-3 prophets and yet ignore Paul's command about women speaking in church. That would be hypocritical to say the least. If you want to say that women speaking in church was for cultural reasons (or some other excuse), maybe I can use that argument also for the 2-3 prophets, and say it was restricted to 2-3 because of the problems. As a general rule everyone should prophesy.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We don't need a gift of prophesy to prophesy, just like we don't need a gift of evangelism to evangelize.
1 Corinthians 14:31 says we may all prophesy one by one, for edification. This does not mean everyone has a gift of prophesy.

1 Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.

The first verse of chapter 14 implies that we can realize gifts we don't have or don't think we have, especially if we desire for that gift. Towards the end of the chapter, notice the phrase "If anyone thinks they are a prophet..." What Paul said here seems to indicate that his word about prophesying is directed at those who view themselves as having that gift.

So I still think there is a prerequisite to having that gift in order to use it. I remember an LC brother saying he had been a Pentecostal, and he had to practice tongue-speaking out of pressure. So in essence, whatever group he had been with was forcing people to practice tongue-speaking whether or not they had the gift. This is the same kind of criticism that I am directing at the practice of prophesying.

I think that people who feel they have the gift of prophecy should feel free to use it. But by the same token, having a specific meeting called a "prophesying meeting," naturally excludes those who don't have the gift or don't feel it their place to function in that way. Remember that Paul says that meetings should be conducted in a fitting and orderly way. That implies some kind of oversight over what is spoken and who is speaking.

[Evangelical]

It may be correct that Paul was speaking to those who felt they had the gift. However just because a person does not have a gift does not mean they are excused from doing it, or cannot do it if they want to. For example, it is commonly believed that everyone is called to evangelize but not everyone has a gift of evangelism. Evangelism is seen as a responsibility of everyone. Similarly, I do not see why it is any different with prophesy. Everyone is called to prophesy but not everyone has a gift of prophesy. Actually, everyone is called to edify, and edification is the result of prophesy. The two main functions of the church are edification and evangelism.

[micah6v8]

This is all quite interesting and I would love to hear more from everyone. Iron sharpens iron.

I am reminded of Eph 4 v 11 to 13

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, ¹² to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up ¹³ until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

We all have our calling in our lives based on God's providence for the world:- some are doctors (God's way of taking care of his created beings' health), some are farmers (God's way of providing our daily bread), some are police-men (God's way of providing for our safety), some are full-time Christian ministry (God's way of helping us grow in our understanding).

My view is that verse 11, the various groups of people mentioned are full-time Christian ministers (who have God's calling to do these without having secular jobs).

I agree that the majority of Christians (who have secular callings) are also in some sense:
(i) apostles: We are not the 12 apostles. But if "apostles" means "sent out", we all are sent out by God
(ii) prophets:- In Old Testament, not everyone was a prophet. Seems like only those who were specially set aside by God:- eg Jeremiah, Elijah. Today, I don't know if it is correct to say that there are any prophets today. (The modern equivalent of Jeremiah/Elijah who are specifically set aside for the community. If so, these would then be in full-time Christian ministry). But if prophesying means speaking for God, we can to some extent all speak forth for God, based on what we have learnt from reading the bible (which is God's word).
(iii) evangelists:- Some are better at evangelising, but we all surely have a reason why we believe in Christ
(iv) pastors:- Shepherds should be taking care of the sheep. But a sheep can at least warn a fellow sheep that there is a wolf nearby
(v) teachers:- we can teach what we do know. In a school, teachers are the main ones responsible for teaching, but a student who understands the material can also help teach his classmate.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It may be correct that Paul was speaking to those who felt they had the gift. However just because a person does not have a gift does not mean they are excused from doing it, or cannot do it if they want to. For example, it is commonly believed that everyone is called to evangelize but not everyone has a gift of evangelism. Evangelism is seen as a responsibility of everyone. Similarly, I do not see why it is any different with prophesy. Everyone is called to prophesy but not everyone has a gift of prophesy. Actually, everyone is called to edify, and edification is the result of prophesy. The two main functions of the church are edification and evangelism.

I agree in principle that a lack of a gift does not prevent someone from doing something they otherwise wouldn't do, but again I would say that it doesn't mean that they have to do it.

1 Cor 14:29-31 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Notice what Paul says about prophesying. If someone is speaking and another receives revelation, then the first should remain silent. That gives a precedence to those who have something to say that is inspired.

In the LC, the meeting format is such that I don't think it would allow someone truly possessing the gift of prophecy to completely function in that capacity. Why do I say this? There are a few reasons:

1. Time constraints - To squeeze everyone in, there is often a pressing limit on what people can say. This eliminates any inspired speaking that doesn't meet the confines of the LC meeting format. Also, when they limit time to "30s each" or "one sentence", the whole thing becomes a joke. There is not any opportunity for anyone to say anything of substance.

2. The material being used - As I have mentioned already, the basis for the HWFMR is the basis of the speaking. That is a limitation on the content of what is spoken. There can be pressure to speak what everyone else is speaking, so once again, it serves as a limitation on inspired speaking.

3. Cookie-cutter functioning - Paul said that 2-3 should prophesy with other discerning. This was his word on having order in church meetings. By pressuring everyone to prophesy, the LC has created an environment where the true prophets are overshadowed. I couldn't tell you who in the LC has that gift, because the environment does not allow for gifts to be very apparent. Think of it this way. If someone who has no skill at piano is asked to play piano in a meeting for the sake of getting them to 'function', the side effects of doing that would be two-fold. It would obviously have a detrimental effect on the meeting itself, but it would also negate any functioning on the part of the person who does have that gift. This is my argument about prophesying. By allowing everyone to speak, the LC has opened the door to speaking that is of little benefit, but it has also de-emphasized those who have that gift.

[Ohio]

1. Time constraints - To squeeze everyone in, there is often a pressing limit on what people can say. This eliminates any inspired speaking that doesn't meet the confines of the LC meeting format. Also, when they limit time to "30s each" or "one sentence", the whole thing becomes a joke. There is not any opportunity for anyone to say anything of substance.

2. The material being used - As I have mentioned already, the basis for the HWFMR is the basis of the speaking. That is a limitation on the content of what is spoken. There can be pressure to speak what everyone else is speaking, so once again, it serves as a limitation on inspired speaking.

3. Cookie-cutter functioning

And they call this the organic functioning of the body of Christ, and then go on to condemn all others for not doing the same.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I agree in principle that a lack of a gift does not prevent someone from doing something they otherwise wouldn't do, but again I would say that it doesn't mean that they have to do it.

1 Cor 14:29-31 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Notice what Paul says about prophesying. If someone is speaking and another receives revelation, then the first should remain silent. That gives a precedence to those who have something to say that is inspired.

In the LC, the meeting format is such that I don't think it would allow someone truly possessing the gift of prophecy to completely function in that capacity. Why do I say this? There are a few reasons:

1. Time constraints - To squeeze everyone in, there is often a pressing limit on what people can say. This eliminates any inspired speaking that doesn't meet the confines of the LC meeting format. Also, when they limit time to "30s each" or "one sentence", the whole thing becomes a joke. There is not any opportunity for anyone to say anything of substance.

2. The material being used - As I have mentioned already, the basis for the HWFMR is the basis of the speaking. That is a limitation on the content of what is spoken. There can be pressure to speak what everyone else is speaking, so once again, it serves as a limitation on inspired speaking.

3. Cookie-cutter functioning - Paul said that 2-3 should prophesy with other discerning. This was his word on having order in church meetings. By pressuring everyone to prophesy, the LC has created an environment where the true prophets are overshadowed. I couldn't tell you who in the LC has that gift, because the environment does not allow for gifts to be very apparent. Think of it this way. If someone who has no skill at piano is asked to play piano in a meeting for the sake of getting them to 'function', the side effects of doing that would be two-fold. It would obviously have a detrimental effect on the meeting itself, but it would also negate any functioning on the part of the person who does have that gift. This is my argument about prophesying. By allowing everyone to speak, the LC has opened the door to speaking that is of little benefit, but it has also de-emphasized those who have that gift.

The true apostles, true prophets, true evangelists, etc, where are any of these in fact? Could you tell which is which and how? Would you say the true apostle is the one who gives a gifted and uplifting sermon on a Sunday and draws crowds of people to altar calls? Witness Lee did that, thousands of people saved through his ministry. Based upon his gifting and his effectiveness, we could say he was a true apostle. That is hard to deny. On the other hand, an apostle may also be a relatively unknown figure, languishing in some prison in a foreign land, and suffering for Christ. Paul was such an apostle.

On the other hand, it is not necessarily so that a person that does a poor job at something has a detrimental effect. In that case the church should hire professional musicians and hire professionals to do all the work. What you say touches on the view in the local churches that you can minister Christ even if you are not naturally gifted. A person who is good at something may b asked to do something else so their dependency is on Christ and not their natural abilities. I see no indication in the Bible that church should be performance-based. Rather it is about participation and mutual edification in the Spirit and Christ.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I agree in principle that a lack of a gift does not prevent someone from doing something they otherwise wouldn't do, but again I would say that it doesn't mean that they have to do it.

1 Cor 14:29-31 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Notice what Paul says about prophesying. If someone is speaking and another receives revelation, then the first should remain silent. That gives a precedence to those who have something to say that is inspired.

In the LC, the meeting format is such that I don't think it would allow someone truly possessing the gift of prophecy to completely function in that capacity. Why do I say this? There are a few reasons:

1. Time constraints - To squeeze everyone in, there is often a pressing limit on what people can say. This eliminates any inspired speaking that doesn't meet the confines of the LC meeting format. Also, when they limit time to "30s each" or "one sentence", the whole thing becomes a joke. There is not any opportunity for anyone to say anything of substance.

2. The material being used - As I have mentioned already, the basis for the HWFMR is the basis of the speaking. That is a limitation on the content of what is spoken. There can be pressure to speak what everyone else is speaking, so once again, it serves as a limitation on inspired speaking.

3. Cookie-cutter functioning - Paul said that 2-3 should prophesy with other discerning. This was his word on having order in church meetings. By pressuring everyone to prophesy, the LC has created an environment where the true prophets are overshadowed. I couldn't tell you who in the LC has that gift, because the environment does not allow for gifts to be very apparent. Think of it this way. If someone who has no skill at piano is asked to play piano in a meeting for the sake of getting them to 'function', the side effects of doing that would be two-fold. It would obviously have a detrimental effect on the meeting itself, but it would also negate any functioning on the part of the person who does have that gift. This is my argument about prophesying. By allowing everyone to speak, the LC has opened the door to speaking that is of little benefit, but it has also de-emphasized those who have that gift.

Something I've said privately and publicly the matter of prophesying if you will, that is using the prophesying meeting as a soapbox to put down all non-LSM Christianity. It's not something limited to one locality. Heard it in Washington as I have in California. How is that edifying to the meeting? What if you're a Christian visiting relatives who happen to meet with a particular locality?
Time constraints. I could see time constraint of two minutes or less. To reduce the time constraint, it reduces ability to speak anything of substance.
Material being used. Most meeting know better to restrict their speaking to HWFMR unless a qualifying word is given accepting other LSM publications to speak from. However if one was to restrict their speaking from the Bible, that may draw the ire of the local responsible ones.
Personally, I found the practice of testimonies more beneficial than prophesying. Real life Christian daily experiences are more weighty than re-speaking someone else's words.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Something I've said privately and publicly the matter of prophesying if you will, that is using the prophesying meeting as a soapbox to put down all non-LSM Christianity. It's not something limited to one locality. Heard it in Washington as I have in California. How is that edifying to the meeting? What if you're a Christian visiting relatives who happen to meet with a particular locality?
Time constraints. I could see time constraint of two minutes or less. To reduce the time constraint, it reduces ability to speak anything of substance.
Material being used. Most meeting know better to restrict their speaking to HWFMR unless a qualifying word is given accepting other LSM publications to speak from. However if one was to restrict their speaking from the Bible, that may draw the ire of the local responsible ones.

Personally, I found the practice of testimonies more beneficial than prophesying. Real life Christian daily experiences are more weighty than re-speaking someone else's words.

Amen to this.

Real life testimonies are far superior than phony prophecies based on second hand teachings.

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It may be correct that Paul was speaking to those who felt they had the gift. However just because a person does not have a gift does not mean they are excused from doing it, or cannot do it if they want to. For example, it is commonly believed that everyone is called to evangelize but not everyone has a gift of evangelism. Evangelism is seen as a responsibility of everyone. Similarly, I do not see why it is any different with prophesy. Everyone is called to prophesy but not everyone has a gift of prophesy. Actually, everyone is called to edify, and edification is the result of prophesy. The two main functions of the church are edification and evangelism.

After a soul searching speaking on love in 1 Cor 13, Paul says pursue love and seak spiritual gifts especially that you may prophecy. I'm an old man and fully know that loving is of God. Yet Paul says to pursue. He also says seak to prophecy. So my conclusion is that all or most of the average Sunday morning propheciers in the LCs is so much hot air. To read page 11 second paragraph does not have anythi to do with prophecying. No seeking, no inspiration, no praying, just talk and you know it. This thing of picking a few words from the holy Writ and making a doctrine is so poor. Some time when sober read the whole contect of "all can prophecy." Also read 1 Cor 15 :45 and what the Lord said on the day of His resurection in Luke. I'm not saying Jesus didn't agree with Paul but I would say as Stephen Kaung advised WL, be careful about making that one of your major verses for separation. This picking and choosing is really sickening. Read the context of the all inclusive doctrine in 1 Tim 1 on economy. In my 40 years in LC I never once heard the two verses quoted which is very very bad.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

After a soul searching speaking on love in 1 Cor 13, Paul says pursue love and seak spiritual gifts especially that you may prophecy. I'm an old man and fully know that loving is of God. Yet Paul says to pursue. He also says seak to prophecy. So my conclusion is that all or most of the average Sunday morning propheciers in the LCs is so much hot air. To read page 11 second paragraph does not have anythi to do with prophecying. No seeking, no inspiration, no praying, just talk and you know it. This thing of picking a few words from the holy Writ and making a doctrine is so poor. Some time when sober read the whole contect of "all can prophecy." Also read 1 Cor 15 :45 and what the Lord said on the day of His resurection in Luke. I'm not saying Jesus didn't agree with Paul but I would say as Stephen Kaung advised WL, be careful about making that one of your major verses for separation. This picking and choosing is really sickening. Read the context of the all inclusive doctrine in 1 Tim 1 on economy. In my 40 years in LC I never once heard the two verses quoted which is very very bad.

To prophesy is to love:

1 Cor 14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

strengthening, encouraging and comfort by prophesying is a loving thing to do.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To prophesy is to love:

1 Cor 14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

strengthening, encouraging and comfort by prophesying is a loving thing to do.

I agree, but one should not use the prophesying meeting as a platform to put down Christians who aren't within the LSM fellowship. Hardly edifying speaking.