Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I have already quoted you saying:
"Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people."

Then in this thread you said:
"When did I say it was not OK to equate the US with Sodom? I don't think anyone on this forum has denied this connection. "

Well FYI you denied that connection in our previous discussion on the US and Sodom.

Fair enough. There is a spirit of Sodom, you can surely see this operating in the US, no doubt. There is also the city of Sodom which God judged. You cannot equate any city in the US to Sodom in the sense of asking for God to judge the city unless there is an overwhelming number of unrighteous people, as described in Genesis. This is why I asked for you to provide the quote that I could look at. The context of my comment was a reference to you calling on God's judgement of the US. You take my comments out of context, then accuse me of saying something I didn't say. I never said that the spirit of Sodom is not operating in the US, instead I said that this is what you should expect in the world. I said that we made this statement when we were baptized that the world is condemned.

Yes you "quoted" me but made it impossible for me to find the quote or deal with it in a clear way looking at the context. How is it that only you are unable to give a clear reference, everyone else is able to give the thread and post so that it is easy to find. You provided a link which did not work.

Does this clear up your misunderstanding? There is a spirit of Sodom and there is a city of Sodom. There is a judgement of God on Sodom. The context of my quote saying "you can only equate the US with Sodom if you can find a city without ten righteous people in it" was a response to your call on God to judge the US as he judged Sodom.

You accused me of intentionally being misleading, now I am accusing you. Go back to your quote, look at the context and admit that this quote was in fact a response to your call on God to judge the US. If you don't do this it proves you are intentionally trying to cause misunderstandings.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Re: "I did not equate Jezebel to the US, I did equate Jezebel to the spirit of the worldly system. "

You seemed to be referring to the US government as being part of the worldly system when you said:

I think the 850 prophets that ate at her table signifies the way we govern now. We have two kinds of "prophets", scientists and pollsters.

We bring in all kinds of experts with their charts, and tables, and predictions and prognostications, etc. We also have the political strategists, pollsters, and spin meisters.

What we don't have is a government according to our conscience. This kind of administration has been very convincingly compared to a psychopath.

Yes, I was referring to human government, it could have been Russia, it could have been China, it could have been the US. I never "equated the US with Jezebel" which is what you accused me of doing.

This is now the second time I am saying this, Jezebel introduces the worldly system into the church. How are you still confused? Is it intentional?

[ZNPaaneah]

Here is the complete quote from Post #546

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

It was a reply to someone else who pointed out that God's judgement on that city was based on the lack of any righteous men in the city.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fair enough. There is a spirit of Sodom, you can surely see this operating in the US, no doubt. There is also the city of Sodom which God judged. You cannot equate any city in the US to Sodom in the sense of asking for God to judge the city unless there is an overwhelming number of unrighteous people, as described in Genesis. This is why I asked for you to provide the quote that I could look at. The context of my comment was a reference to you calling on God's judgement of the US. You take my comments out of context, then accuse me of saying something I didn't say. I never said that the spirit of Sodom is not operating in the US, instead I said that this is what you should expect in the world. I said that we made this statement when we were baptized that the world is condemned.

Yes you "quoted" me but made it impossible for me to find the quote or deal with it in a clear way looking at the context. How is it that only you are unable to give a clear reference, everyone else is able to give the thread and post so that it is easy to find. You provided a link which did not work.

Does this clear up your misunderstanding? There is a spirit of Sodom and there is a city of Sodom. There is a judgement of God on Sodom. The context of my quote saying "you can only equate the US with Sodom if you can find a city without ten righteous people in it" was a response to your call on God to judge the US as he judged Sodom.

You accused me of intentionally being misleading, now I am accusing you. Go back to your quote, look at the context and admit that this quote was in fact a response to your call on God to judge the US. If you don't do this it proves you are intentionally trying to cause misunderstandings.



Yes, I was referring to human government, it could have been Russia, it could have been China, it could have been the US. I never "equated the US with Jezebel" which is what you accused me of doing.

This is now the second time I am saying this, Jezebel introduces the worldly system into the church. How are you still confused? Is it intentional?

I never accused you of being intentionally misleading at all.


So the thread in question is: Local Church Discussions > Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here?>Merged Thread: Various Themes by Evangelical

This seems to hinge on the interpretation of the word "equate" .

You used the word equate in both threads, there and here.

In one you said we cannot equate the US with Sodom because of the 10 righteous people thing.

Here you said we can equate the US with Sodom because of the spirit of Sodom.

So it is like this:

US equates to Sodom because of the spirit of Sodom.
US does not equate to Sodom because there are more than 10 righteous people in it.

To me this is saying that the US is like Sodom before God's judgement came. That is, there was a period in which God allowed Sodom to exist and do what it wanted until the threshold of 10 righteous men was reached, then judgement came. This is the situation with the US today.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I never accused you of being intentionally misleading at all.


So the thread in question is: Local Church Discussions > Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here?>Merged Thread: Various Themes by Evangelical

This seems to hinge on the interpretation of the word "equate" .

You used the word equate in both threads, there and here.

In one you said we cannot equate the US with Sodom because of the 10 righteous people thing.

Here you said we can equate the US with Sodom because of the spirit of Sodom.

So it is like this:

US equates to Sodom because of the spirit of Sodom.
US does not equate to Sodom because there are more than 10 righteous people in it.

Can you understand that the spirit of Sodom can be likened to the legalization of gay marriage by the Supreme court. The Supreme Court represents the entire US, so by legalizing gay marriage they have legitimized the comparison of the US with the Spirit (the law) of Sodom.

But that the city of Sodom refers to a city of people.

When God rained fire down on Sodom he rained it down on a city with people who were killed, not on a fleshly spirit that permeates the world.

The United States is "the world", not a "Christian country". There may be quite a few Christians in this country, maybe even a majority, the Lord knows, but it is not a Christian country in the sense that Israel was the nation of God.

Because it is the world we should expect that all of the sins of the world are here, and that spirit of disobedience operates in them. But God chooses not to exercise His judgement at this time because his people, like grains of wheat, are growing and are not ready to reaped. If he roots up the tares He might kill some of the wheat as well.

So, yes, He judged Sodom in the OT, but only after determining there weren't 10 righteous people. In the end he only pulled out 3.

Read the quote that you claim is giving you so much confusion, it is talking about the city of Sodom, not the spirit of Sodom.