Whistleblower

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Outstanding response bro Untohim.

So that's where rape entered this thread ; our dear brother Drake.

I feel for our brother. He's trying to defend the indefensible.

Don't put that on me., awareness.

I'd be happy for Ohio to disavow it once and for all. Gave him plenty of opportunity to do it, I said he reserves the right to change his mind, I said he can clarify it if that is not what he meant......all sorts of face saving ways out of it.....but instead he replies with he can only go by what the witnesses who were there said. How convenient.

So, it is actually worse, it has morphed into the subtle innuendo vs the original outright accusation. A wink wink nod nod type of accusation. It really does not matter how long ago Ohio alleged rape by PL. He did. He did not have to see it firsthand. His allegation is secondhand. So what? Until and unless Ohio declares his changed belief we can assume he still holds onto it.

Ohio, disavow that PL committed or attempted rape once and for all. Then we can leave that accusation in the garbage pit where it belongs.

Drake

[Ohio]

Drake, it is you who are digging thru the garbage. Don't they call that "dumpster diving." You jumped in head first trying to rescue LSM. It's really sad that you can not distinguish between actual accusations and my dismay that Witness Lee would risk "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry.

Going back to my original 7-year-old comment that Drake is so obsessed with here, I wondered then and now why WL would not just funnel money to his kids? It was a conversation between Don Hardy and Samuel Cheng, W. Nee's brother-in-law, that alerted the readers to WL's long-term guilt concerning his sons. Why not just give them money? Why place Philip in charge at LSM, knowing what he was prone to do with women, thus risking "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry. Scandals which we are still discussing!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, it is you who are digging thru the garbage. Don't they call that "dumpster diving." You jumped in head first trying to rescue LSM. It's really sad that you can not distinguish between actual accusations and my dismay that Witness Lee would risk "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry.

Going back to my original 7-year-old comment that Drake is so obsessed with here, I wondered then and now why WL would not just funnel money to his kids? It was a conversation between Don Hardy and Samuel Cheng, W. Nee's brother-in-law, that alerted the readers to WL's long-term guilt concerning his sons. Why not just give them money? Why place Philip in charge at LSM, knowing what he was prone to do with women, thus risking "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry. Scandals which we are still discussing!

Ohio,

I have no need to "rescue" LSM. That is silly. Why would that be even needed? Rescue LSM from .....you? You could post 1000 more times on this topic, another 50 years of posting.... and it would not affect anything in the least at LSM. I have made my view clear... I'll repeat again for your benefit: Anything that could be destroyed should be destroyed. No props are needed. No rescue is needed. If it is not a work of ministry of the Lord then it will fall. It will fail. If it is the work of ministry raised up by the Lord then nothing you say or do here will ever affect it.

Rather, if my spirit is provoked it is because I find your reviling and railing allegations and innuendo of rape a lawless piling on. That there was sexual immorality is an awful, terrible, and repulsive thing... that you would heap on criminal allegations of rape in the face of evidence to the contrary is even worse. You appear to take special delight in dancing on the failures of others. Dumpster diving? You have taken up residence in it. Scandals? You decorate them. Obsession? I've never seen anyone so continuously preoccupied with ideas or thoughts about PL as you are. Well brother Ohio, I just hope your own life record is as righteous as you demand of others. I really hope your conduct in life has been free of sin, immorality, and failures. We will be judged according to standard by which we judged others. Our life record will be played to a broad audience someday. Ready for that?

You have had several opportunities to deny the allegation of rape. You didn't. I tried. You refused. The reader can decide now.

And here is an odd inconsistency. You and others claim to have the highest respect for John Ingalls the elder in the church in Anaheim during this time. Yet, Brother John never called the cops... so either he was delinquent, negligent, and complicit in the crime you allege by his inaction or ..... it did not reach the level of a crime. Would the John Ingalls you knew have reported a crime if he believed one was being committed? Yes, I believe he would have. Rather, his estimation was that it was a matter to be dealt with by the church. Did he not indicate that? Why? Because he considered it sin, or immorality, or something of the genre that the elders should deal with. Not the cops. Had he called the cops for something other than a crime, they would have told him the same thing Benson told him. They would have said that he needed to deal with it as it is under his jurisdiction not theirs.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Rather, if my spirit is provoked it is because I find your reviling and railing allegations and innuendo of rape a lawless piling on.

Drake, what is reviling is the way Witness Lee treated John Ingalls, slander him before all of his brothers and sisters. Railing allegations and innuendo are what filled the despicable book Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. Rape is what the husband of that molested sister at LSM thought of, which is why he went to get a gun and shoot Philip Lee. Piling on is what Lee and the Blendeds have done for years to those who cry out for righteousness.

Hey Drake, why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?

Let me repeat. Why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?

And here is an odd inconsistency. You and others claim to have the highest respect for Witness Lee, the acting God, the Minister of the Age, during this time period. Yet, Witness Lee constantly promised the elders that he would take care of his son. He should have called the cops, but he did not. He should have fired his son, but he did not. He should have taken the proper action any minister of the Lord would take, but he did not ... so either he was dishonest, delinquent, negligent, or complicit in the very same crimes committed by his son Philip.

Why should John Ingalls have reported a crime at LSM months before he learned about it? He did not work at LSM. Philip Lee never met in the church he shepherded. Why did Benson Philips and Ray Graver do nothing, yet they knew all about what happened? What about all the other employees at LSM? Why did they do nothing? They too are complicit of PL's crimes. Why did Kangas and Marks say nothing? Robichaux just took over Ingalls' translation work, so he had a financial motive to remain silent. The rest of LSM's employees faced termination if they spoke up, yet they did nothing on behalf of that little sister.

Shame on the entire LSM organization! They exalt man and not God. They fear man and not God. One day they will all face His judgment seat for their action and inaction.

Well brother Drake, I just hope your own life record is as righteous as you demand of others. You are part of a ministry which daily condemns the entirety of Christianity. I really hope your conduct in life has been free of sin, immorality, and failures. Has not your abundant pride preceded your fall? You will be judged according to the standard by which you judge others. Your life record will be played to a broad audience someday. Ready for that?

I say are you ready for that?

[Drake]

Ohio>"Let me repeat. Why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?"


Ohio,

I find it amusing how you latch onto a question that you think is the gotcha of all gotchas... Koinomia has been wringing his hands wanting me to answer this question.... He should funnel all his questions through you so I will answer them ... ... until he starts acting like a brother wanting to have a conversation and less like an inquisitor demanding answers to his entrapment questions.

Ready? Sit down... here comes the answer! Russians! Bombshell!

The answer to that question is easier from my chair than it was from the chairs for those who had to make that decision.

Brother Lee should not have opposed his son's excommunication.

ok?

But, that was not my decision and it was not your decision, was it? The difference is that you are obsessed with it....or rather it possesses you. The failure of others is the basis of your church life and by all indicators your christian life as well. Your words express all that is in your heart. Every post reveals your angst, your anger, your hatred toward brothers in the Lord. Rather, you should know that every man, save One, is a failure at best. You, me, Brother Lee are the same in that way. Brother Lee was a servant of the Lord, but at the most fundamental level he was a brother in the Lord. His misjudgement in this matter of PL does not negate the anointing of his ministry. When I read the Life-study of Genesis or Christ Vs. Religion for example, I do not think "oh, he defended his son, I will throw this all away". What an insult that would be to the Lord's ministry and His anointing.

Rather, all failures are a test to the vision the Lord gave me. It is not dependent on any man. If it is then it should vanish. You mocked following the anointing. But, unless you follow the anointing you will fall into error. I think you followed a man, Witness Lee, at some time in your life... and when he stumbled, you stumbled. You were wrong to follow a man then and you are more wrong to mock following the anointing now. I do not follow a man, never have since coming into the Lord's Recovery. I do not feel any need to defend LSM. Not an inkling. I follow the anointing and today that anointing is on the ministry that produces local churches to build up the Body of Christ and bring the Lord back. If the anointing moves I will by His mercy and grace recognize it and follow it.

You have your reasons for feeling the way you do but those reasons have boxed you in. Every conversation is the same now.... like being caught in an infinite loop... but not infinite because when the Lord comes back all your harsh words will end. Then you will be released.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

I find it amusing how you latch onto a question that you think is the gotcha of all gotchas... Koinomia has been wringing his hands wanting me to answer this question.... He should funnel all his questions through you so I will answer them ... ... until he starts acting like a brother wanting to have a conversation and less like an inquisitor demanding answers to his entrapment questions.

Ready? Sit down... here comes the answer! Russians! Bombshell!

The answer to that question is easier from my chair than it was from the chairs for those who had to make that decision.

Brother Lee should not have opposed his son's excommunication.

ok?

Thank you. Now was that so hard?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thank you. Now was that so hard?

Not a bit. If you were paying attention to my previous posts you would know what my view would be. It was only your darkened understanding that prevents you from seeing the obvious.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

But, that was not my decision and it was not your decision, was it? The difference is that you are obsessed with it....or rather it possesses you. The failure of others is the basis of your church life and by all indicators your christian life as well. Your words express all that is in your heart. Every post reveals your angst, your anger, your hatred toward brothers in the Lord.

Drake

Hi Drake, are you like some internet pseudo-shrink?

I think you got me mixed up with someone else.

I simply refuse to put up with your LC hypocrisy, and you obviously are not used to that.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hi Drake, are you like some internet pseudo-shrink?

I think you got me mixed up with someone else.

I simply refuse to put up with your LC hypocrisy, and you obviously are not used to that.

Don’t need to be a shrink to see this serious case of obsession. My goodness Ohio. You cannot carry on a conversation without spewing the same rhetorical nonsense. You refuse to put up with common sense and civil discourse.... I suppose you are not used to that.

[Koinonia]

Drake, you attack Ohio over a non-issue, yet will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication. It is the same way you criticize John Ingalls for not calling the police on Philip Lee--when it was Witness Lee, the minister of the age, who installed his son in the first place, led the cover-up of his sexual indiscretion and abuse over a 10-year period, kept him on the board of directors of LSM, the "work of ministry," and then quarantined Ingalls for not going along with it.

I think your priorities are out of order.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

Don't put that on me., awareness.

I'd be happy for Ohio to disavow it once and for all. Gave him plenty of opportunity to do it, I said he reserves the right to change his mind, I said he can clarify it if that is not what he meant......all sorts of face saving ways out of it.....but instead he replies with he can only go by what the witnesses who were there said. How convenient.

So, it is actually worse, it has morphed into the subtle innuendo vs the original outright accusation. A wink wink nod nod type of accusation. It really does not matter how long ago Ohio alleged rape by PL. He did. He did not have to see it firsthand. His allegation is secondhand. So what? Until and unless Ohio declares his changed belief we can assume he still holds onto it.

Ohio, disavow that PL committed or attempted rape once and for all. Then we can leave that accusation in the garbage pit where it belongs.

Drake

Would that make you feel better...Drake...? ...deciding, once and for all...what word to attach to a woman's ultimate humiliation? Her ultimate violation by the son of the man who she likely respected above all others? You weren't there. You don't get to decide. That you even insist on making it about what Ohio believes is totally perverse.

The women who were his victims know what word to use. They were forced. If it happened to your wife...your mother...your sister...would you be so cavalier?

Just leave it in the garbage pit and walk away.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

Would that make you feel better...Drake...? ...deciding, once and for all...what word to attach to a woman's ultimate humiliation? Her ultimate violation by the son of the man who she likely respected above all others? You weren't there. You don't get to decide. That you even insist on making it about what Ohio believes is totally perverse.

The women who were his victims know what word to use. They were forced. If it happened to your wife...your mother...your sister...would you be so cavalier?

Just leave it in the garbage pit and walk away.

Nell

Nell,

I have been an advocate and supporter of your call to action. If a crime was committed call the cops. Drop a dime. Anonymously if needed. I even suggested that the labor board be contacted... start a civil suit which has a lower bar to clear to prove guilt. I am a champion of your main point. Blow the whistle long and loud.

However, in the particular examples given, I have to trust the judgement in this scenario of the elders. Repulsive, yes. Criminal? Not proven. Else they would have called the cops. You have to allow that the suggestion of force is not proof of it. It is a sad reality that not every accusation or allegation is to be believed as is. Someone claims they were forced, maybe they were. Sometimes it is consensual as the first instance indicated that Max addressed. Maybe it was pressure from a manager, that too is criminal. But it has to be proved. Consensus in this forum is not proof. I believe your personal account, no reason not to. So this is not about that.

But if in doubt... make the call. Do something. I am for that. I agree with your main point. It should be reported. Let the authorities sort it out. Prosecute. Civil suit.

But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell,

I have been an advocate and supporter of your call to action. If a crime was committed call the cops. Drop a dime. Anonymously if needed. I even suggested that the labor board be contacted... start a civil suit which has a lower bar to clear to prove guilt. I am a champion of your main point. Blow the whistle long and loud.

However, in the particular examples given, I have to trust the judgement in this scenario of the elders. Repulsive, yes. Criminal? Not proven. Else they would have called the cops. You have to allow that the suggestion of force is not proof of it. It is a sad reality that not every accusation or allegation is to be believed as is. Someone claims they were forced, maybe they were. Sometimes it is consensual as the first instance indicated that Max addressed. Maybe it was pressure from a manager, that too is criminal. But it has to be proved. Consensus in this forum is not proof. I believe your personal account, no reason not to. So this is not about that.

But if in doubt... make the call. Do something. I am for that. I agree with your main point. It should be reported. Let the authorities sort it out. Prosecute. Civil suit.

But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us.

Drake

Drake,

That's not your call.

Don't make this issue about you and what you think should have been done 40 years ago. Witness Lee is dead. As far as we know, Lee carried his sin with him to his multi-million dollar grave.

What about today? There are predators in the Local Church TODAY who are sexually abusing women who are vulnerable to Lee's "ministry". There is sin in the camp at the expense of women. You may believe you have hit on some kind of noble perspective that involves clarity on the use of the word "rape", I daresay every woman reading this forum is rolling her eyes in disbelief. Do you think Philip Lee's victims believe they were sexually abused, or, raped? Do you think it matters to them what words YOU use to define what happened to THEM?

"But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us." Really??? What a joke. There IS NO BAR in the Local Church. In the Local Church it's open season on women. Anything goes. Even if a predator gets caught...no problem. "Cover the brothers."

This forum has plenty on Lee's teaching on women...put them in their place...shut them up and do what they're told...ad nauseum. How convenient. What a fertile environment for a sick sexual predator.

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell

Sorry Nell. Cant let you skate on that one no matter how much I agree with your main point.

Post the evidence of the rape you allege. Specifically. I do NOT know it’s happening.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

Post the evidence of the rape you allege. Specifically. I do NOT know it’s happening.

Drake, this is not a court of law. I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

Even if somebody had some sort of evidence of rape, I would not allow it to be posted here on the open forum. Same goes for any kind of sexual assault or sexually deviant behavior. In many of these cases, the devil is literally in the details, and why should we give him place to do more harm to the victims than has already been perpetrated upon them?

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.
-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Drake, this is not a court of law. I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

Even if somebody had some sort of evidence of rape, I would not allow it to be posted here on the open forum. Same goes for any kind of sexual assault or sexually deviant behavior. In many of these cases, the devil is literally in the details, and why should we give him place to do more harm to the victims than has already been perpetrated upon them?

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.
-

UntoHim,

This is not a court of law, but it is the court of public opinion. The standard is lower here, so people make accusations of crimes committed, in this case rape, without accountability and without evidence. However, we are a christian forum. So the standard should be higher than a civil court. Yet, it is not.

When a crime is committed (sadly when a christian cannot follow the Spirit's leading and casts off all basic christian restraint) then the civil authorities need to be brought in.

Forum members are taking the liberties of making unproven accusations and slandering with a broad brush the Lord's Recovery. That is irresponsible at best. If a crime was committed then someone should call the cops instead of the pathetic slandering going in here. Don't try to convince us this venue is to bring to light what's really going on.... rather, it obfuscates what is really going on with innuendo and subterfuge. Sorry UntoHim, this venue is not a high road.

Therefore, Nell's accusations of rape, a clear crime, being practiced throughout the Lord's Recovery are without proof or substantiation and, in my opinion, are slanderous, a different kind of crime but a crime nonetheless.

Drake

[Steel]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

And there it is.

So, Unto him, being someone who met with teh Local Church... You were guilty of the past "...sexual immorality..." that was in the Local Church and "...has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret."..." in the Local Church... As Nell says?

According to Nells brush... Everyone associated with the Local Church (which includes Nell)... Past and present... Is guilty of "...sexual immorality..." . . . So are you agreeing with her?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.

I find it very strange that this has been spoken about on public forums and that the police have not become involved. Why haven't any of those who know about this firsthand reported it? . . . Isn't doing this exactly what "...whistleblowing..." is all about.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

What about today? There are predators in the Local Church TODAY who are sexually abusing women who are vulnerable to Lee's "ministry"......

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell

-1

UntoHim,

I provided a very specific example of the claim Nell made of Drake and that claim was false... that is how she reopened this thread. If my characterization was incorrect then how would you characterize it? It was not an opinion, it was a claim that I did something that everyone can read and see that I did not.

Nevertheless, my characterization pales in comparison to the inflammatory and libelous statements made above. Those are the comments that you as the owner and moderator of this forum should give a closer look.... and personally I think diligent moderation should be applied there.

So, I’ll stand down though your uneven response remains unresolved.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Don't put that on me., awareness.

I'd be happy for Ohio to disavow it once and for all. Gave him plenty of opportunity to do it, I said he reserves the right to change his mind, I said he can clarify it if that is not what he meant......all sorts of face saving ways out of it.....but instead he replies with he can only go by what the witnesses who were there said. How convenient.

So, it is actually worse, it has morphed into the subtle innuendo vs the original outright accusation. A wink wink nod nod type of accusation. It really does not matter how long ago Ohio alleged rape by PL. He did. He did not have to see it firsthand. His allegation is secondhand. So what? Until and unless Ohio declares his changed belief we can assume he still holds onto it.

Ohio, disavow that PL committed or attempted rape once and for all. Then we can leave that accusation in the garbage pit where it belongs.

Drake

Thanks for clearing this up, or trying to anyway. Sorry, but I don't see a claim of rape either. And what I mean by rape is forced unconsensual sex.

But some could mean something else by rape, such as uninvited unwanted groping. That is, I suppose, a kind of rape. Unwanted force is at play.

But the testimony from Speaking The Truth in Love doesn't say any of that.

I don't know. Did the sister do things she didn't really want to do? But since it was Witness Lee's son, who was clearly in the inner circle of the leader she was giving her life to, she went along with it? Then was stricken by her conscience, and then came to the elder about it?

Unless there's contradictory evidence, that's one possible explanation for what went on in the LSM office.

I guess we need to define what we mean by rape.