The Mormon Church is "The Church"?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yet I consider the word "reform" as in reformation of Catholicism or "the reformation" to be a worse term than recover or restore, and to me means lipstick on a pig.

So Drake, do you agree with your comrade Mr. E? Were Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al simply putting "lipstick on a pig"?

Yes or No.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Drake, do you agree with your comrade Mr. E? Were Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al simply putting "lipstick on a pig"?

Yes or No.
-

To deride the reformation as mere "lipstick on a pig" is to reject the work of the Spirit and the faith many died for.

I would only ask, "who at LSM is willing to suffer like them?" Many, many reformers gave up their lives for the Lord and His word. LSM, on the other hand, will sue you or quarantine their own people for the slightest of correction.


It seems that those who always like to warn us of our criticisms of LSM in light of the judgment seat of Christ, ought to apply the same words to themselves regarding all the Reformers, many of whom were martyred.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To deride the reformation as mere "lipstick on a pig" is to reject the work of the Spirit and the faith many died for.

I would only ask, "who at LSM is willing to suffer like them?" Many, many reformers gave up their lives for the Lord and His word. LSM, on the other hand, will sue you or quarantine their own people for the slightest of correction.


It seems that those who always like to warn us of our criticisms of LSM in light of the judgment seat of Christ, ought to apply the same words to themselves regarding all the Reformers, many of whom were martyred.

The Spirit and the reformers were recovering the truth. Meanwhile, the reformation became a movement of bloodshed and violence. Catholics were killing Protestants and Protestants were killing Protestants/anabaptists. That is the lipstick on the pig I'm talking about.

[Evangelical]

To clarify my statement about lipstick on a pig, the Reformation was in 3 stages:
1. The initial stage of liberty from Catholicism - this is what everyone wants the Reformation to be known for, this is where the Holy Spirit recovered truths.

2. Union of the church with the state and abandonment of religious liberty by the Reformers. Just like the Catholic church they fought in many battles. Alignment of church with state was just like Constantine and the Roman Empire.

3. Persecution of believers by Protestant state churches - by now these state churches look very much like the Catholic church.

By the end of the Reformation, there were entities which looked very much like the Catholic entity before. The difference between the two was only superficial. They all engaged in violence to solve their problems. They were all aligned with the state, notably, the Church of England.

If stages 2. and 3. did not occur, there would have been no need for the Puritan movement, the Pentecostal movement, the Brethren movement, and the recovery.

These are historical facts, you can read about them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To clarify my statement about lipstick on a pig, the Reformation was in 3 stages:
1. The initial stage of liberty from Catholicism - this is what everyone wants the Reformation to be known for, this is where the Holy Spirit recovered truths.

2. Union of the church with the state and abandonment of religious liberty by the Reformers. Just like the Catholic church they fought in many battles. Alignment of church with state was just like Constantine and the Roman Empire.

3. Persecution of believers by Protestant state churches - by now these state churches look very much like the Catholic church.

Should we not consider all the LAWSUITS filed by LSM against other Christians as the union of the LOCAL church with the state?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To clarify my statement about lipstick on a pig, the Reformation was in 3 stages:
1. The initial stage of liberty from Catholicism - this is what everyone wants the Reformation to be known for

You are framing the argument in a way that may have made sense in 16th century Europe but hardly in 21st century global Christianity. What about the EOC? What about the churches that split after Chalcedon in the 4th century? Your argument seems to assume they didn't ever exist. Even though they didn't exist, practically speaking, for Luther (he was persecuted by the RCC), they should exist for us, in our thinking of church history. Why frame an argument of historical narrative so contrary to the facts on the ground (there are [and were] more Christians than merely those affiliated with Protestants and RCC)?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

You are framing the argument in a way that may have made sense in 16th century Europe but hardly in 21st century global Christianity. What about the EOC? What about the churches that split after Chalcedon in the 4th century? Your argument seems to assume they didn't ever exist. Even though they didn't exist, practically speaking, for Luther (he was persecuted by the RCC), they should exist for us, in our thinking of church history. Why frame an argument of historical narrative so contrary to the facts on the ground (there are [and were] more Christians than merely those affiliated with Protestants and RCC)?

Yes but the context is the Reformation - are churches splitting in the 4th century really relevant? Numerous rebellions, splits and offshoots occurred before the Reformation for various reasons, but no serious historian considers these as part of the Reformation.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yes but the context is the Reformation - are churches splitting in the 4th century really relevant? Numerous rebellions, splits and offshoots occurred before the Reformation for various reasons, but no serious historian considers these as part of the Reformation.

But why does LSM discussion of the Reformation always seem to assume that meaningful church history only began with the Reformation? Statements like, "The Reformation was lipstick on a pig" implies tacitly that there are 3 choices emerging from history: the RCC, Protestants, and the Recovered/Degraded Recovered spinoff of the Protestants. The pig, the lipstick, and us. But church history didn't start in 1500. And there have always been other churches besides the RCC.

Again, in 1525 Germany the point was moot, for Luther. Not for us, today. Our horizons are not his, and our narrative shouldn't presuppose only his as its basis.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The Spirit and the reformers were recovering the truth. Meanwhile, the reformation became a movement of bloodshed and violence. Catholics were killing Protestants and Protestants were killing Protestants/anabaptists. That is the lipstick on the pig I'm talking about.

If hatred is murder, as our Lord has instructed us, then Lee and LSM are guilty of as many murders as the Catholic Church.

I lived thru decades of movements coming out of Lee and LSM, winds and waves of teaching, new ways and practices, endless and fruitless vain experiments thrust on the LC's.

These were all "makeup on a moo cow." Even Lee himself would admit to this. He regularly called us all "moo cows."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Drake, do you agree with your comrade Mr. E? Were Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al simply putting "lipstick on a pig"?

Yes or No.
-

YES.

As defined in Post #18.

Drake

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drake

YES.

As defined in Post #18.

Drake

So Drake and Evangelical, do you think I'm in a pig movement?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So Drake and Evangelical, do you think I'm in a pig movement?

The metaphorical “pig” refers to the Catholic Church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

The metaphorical “pig” refers to the Catholic Church.

Few would dispute your depiction of the Catholic Church as a "pig." Even the Lord Jesus referred to some as swine or pigs. (Mt 7.6)

Thus E's comment "putting makeup on a pig" insinuates that nothing of biblical value and spiritual reality characterized the reformers nor existed in the reformation movement. All of their work could be characterized as "lipstick."

History overwhelming informs us that these Reformers changed the course of Western civilization, ending an entire millennium of what is called the "dark ages." Think about how little impact the "Recovery" has had, and perhaps saying that the LCM is merely "makeup on a moo cow" is too generous.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So Drake and Evangelical, do you think I'm in a pig movement?

No, not at all. But it is a movement responsible for persecuting the independent churches.

See "THE DEFICIENCY OF THE REFORMATION" by Watchman Nee

Luther came out of Babylon but did not enter Jerusalem. He thought politics could help the church. Likewise, Calvin aligned the church and the state, and then persecuted heretics.

Calvin did not practice Sola Scriptura - he believed in a state church, persecution of perceived heresy, and infant baptism - these are Catholic ideas.

The Reformed churches (Lutheran, English ) look like Catholic churches in many ways.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, not at all. But it is a movement responsible for persecuting the independent churches.

See "THE DEFICIENCY OF THE REFORMATION" by Watchman Nee

Luther came out of Babylon but did not enter Jerusalem. He thought politics could help the church. Likewise, Calvin aligned the church and the state, and then persecuted heretics.

Calvin did not practice Sola Scriptura - he believed in a state church, persecution of perceived heresy, and infant baptism - these are Catholic ideas.

The Reformed churches (Lutheran, English ) look like Catholic churches in many ways.

Historical revisionism by Mr. E.

How about we change the title of this forum to "THE DEFICIENCY OF THE RECOVERY?"

And the recovery looks much like the Catholic Church in so many ways:

• Headed by a MOTA much like the Pope
  Ruled by Blendeds much like the Cardinals
  Like a Monsignor, many LC's are administered by a LSM worker
  Elders in name only, actually rule like parish priests
  Daily readings in HWFMR like the Catholic Missal
  Meeting content the same all over the world
  One centralized publishing house for entire church
  Deformed practices of oneness like the RCC
  Quarantine dissenters like the heretics of old

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Historical revisionism by Mr. E.

How about we change the title of this forum to "THE DEFICIENCY OF THE RECOVERY?"

And the recovery looks much like the Catholic Church in so many ways:

• Headed by a MOTA much like the Pope
  Ruled by Blendeds much like the Cardinals
  Like a Monsignor, many LC's are administered by a LSM worker
  Elders in name only, actually rule like parish priests
  Daily readings in HWFMR like the Catholic Missal
  Meeting content the same all over the world
  One centralized publishing house for entire church
  Deformed practices of oneness like the RCC
  Quarantine dissenters like the heretics of old

Right on points bro Ohio.

When Mel Porter told me that I had to take his personality as my own, the whole point, that I had to agree to without questioning, was that, Lee was the one and only apostle on the earth, I said, "Well brother Mel, that looks like the Roman Catholic Church to me, with Lee as our Pope."

His response was, "Well brother, it's the way of life."

Get that. RCC Pope = death. LSM/LCM Pope = life.

I didn't see life. I didn't see taking someone else's personality as life. I didn't see Pope Lee as life.

The whole thing folded like a house or cards. I had no choice but to leave it behind. Thank God.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Right on points bro Ohio.

When Mel Porter told me that I had to take his personality as my own, the whole point, that I had to agree to without questioning, was that, Lee was the one and only apostle on the earth, I said, "Well brother Mel, that looks like the Roman Catholic Church to me, with Lee as our Pope."

My response to finding that out was similar, Awareness.....when I heard the MOTA junk, and the one publication junk, I was revulsed instantly and thoroughly....I know it was the Holy Spirit within....elevation of this man Lee....this makes me angry.....how dare they glorify Lee.....I am just sick of the silent, unspoken reverence for a man and his 'way'....that was it for me.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Historical revisionism by Mr. E.

How about we change the title of this forum to "THE DEFICIENCY OF THE RECOVERY?"

And the recovery looks much like the Catholic Church in so many ways:

• Headed by a MOTA much like the Pope
  Ruled by Blendeds much like the Cardinals
  Like a Monsignor, many LC's are administered by a LSM worker
  Elders in name only, actually rule like parish priests
  Daily readings in HWFMR like the Catholic Missal
  Meeting content the same all over the world
  One centralized publishing house for entire church
  Deformed practices of oneness like the RCC
  Quarantine dissenters like the heretics of old

And irony of ironies, I could see all the problems and faults of the RCC system, and the glaring missteps of the SDA church, but was so blind to 'my' cult....why? How could I not see what I now see? I think the culture of silence doesn't differentiate from a culture of deception or outright lies....I recently had an unpleasant run in with an LC sister who cut off contact with me months ago, and who was instrumental in my search for truth and an explanation for behavior I was witnessing in LC saints....she had completely revised what happened in our families case....and was vocal about blaming me for our split....I was shocked and honestly couldn't believe her stance....I am pretty sure the ones NOT answering my calls, texts, and emails are officially the ones doing the shunning....I have come to the conclusion that they are lying to me, and maybe even themselves.....