Lee and LC: Home Runs and Strikeouts

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I knew you were going to say that...

But, see that doesn't really work. Because in reality there is still a you. There is still the "nevertheless I live" part.

If you take that Christ is the new man too far then, how to account for the fact that Drake is still here, too? Is your personality just an illusion? Like I said, we don't vanish, we still exist. So "not I, but Christ" just means that Christ now is our spiritual center.

Doctrine has to hold up to experience. .

Igzy,

There are many divine facts concerning us, the believers, that would seem in contradiction to our "experience". For instance, Ephesians says:

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,.." Ephesians 2:6

If you or I look around as we write or read this post do you see that you are seated with Christ in the heavenly realm? Maybe you see Texas, or California, or Florida out your window but the divine fact declares that the believers are seated with Christ in the heavenly places.

Again God's Word declares this fact:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." Hebrews 12

If you look around are you on Mount Zion, in the company of myriads of angels, to God the Judge and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator, etc.? No matter what you see with your physical eyes the divine fact says otherwise.

So then another fact according to God's Word is that we, the believers have been crucified with Christ... and the life we now live.. what life? His life not the old crucified life, not the self you were born with because it was crucified. Christ is the new man we live. But you ask, what of Drake or what of Igzy.... we are not illusions as you say. But the fact does not follow the experience. The fact is not dependent on experience. Experience follows the divine fact but only by faith.

"and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20

Not unlike when we first believed in the Lord. We read or someone preached the gospel to us and His salvation was applied to us by faith the moment we believed. And at that very moment we passed out of death into life. Maybe we didn't know we were dead already but the Bible says we were dead in our offenses and sins. In the same way, by faith the experience of the fact of having been crucified with Christ is ours. There is the experience of Romans 7 (wretched man that I am) and then there is the experience of Romans 8 (For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.).

So, by these verses we can see that we first must stand on God's fact according to His Word, the Bible... and then by faith those facts are applied to our experience.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, by these examples we can see that we first must stand on God's fact... and then by faith those facts are applied to our experience.

Okay, but that leaves a lot of leeway for interpretation. Because for the few places that seem to say we are Christ, I can show you many more, and make the argument that while that may be true in some sense, we are still us. So where shall we land this plane? Are we just going to insist that everyone agree with Lee on everything, as you do?

Actually, I'm glad the conversation turned this way because it brings to light a real issue I have with Lee and which I think leads the whole LR into their problems.

Lee had a very impersonal approach to people and God. If you take "Not I, but Christ" to the extreme, then people start to become non-entities, simply colored containers, and little more, to hold "Christ." When you have that view, then those people assuredly become less than people to you. I saw this again and again in the LR and see it to this day. I see it in your attitude sometimes. People are expendable, replaceable and of little real value as individuals. ONLY CHRIST LIVES, taken too far, means we are really not here and so we aren't important. ONLY CHRIST MATTERS, twisted, becomes people don't matter. CHRIST DIED FOR US, if we are literally "Christ," means Christ died for himself. And so forth.

So, again, I see how this view of yours and Lee's dovetails perfectly with a movement which can say THE CHURCH IS CHRIST, yet tread on members of the Church, real people like JLBW, as if they are nothing.

This is one reason I believe self-esteem and self-value are important, because without them demagogues like Lee can easily twist scripture to make you a cog in their machine.

Because of this, and other reasons, I don't buy your interpretation. I think it's unhealthy and produces bad fruit, and I don't think you've demonstrated at all that it is necessarily true, unless our main priority should be agreeing with Lee--which in your case, it is, and which explains practically everything.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Okay, but that leaves a lot of leeway for interpretation. Because for the few places that seem to say we are Christ, I can show you many more, and make the argument that while that may be true in some sense, we are still us. So where shall we land this plane? Are we just going to insist that everyone agree with Lee on everything, as you do?

Igzy,

It matters not if you agree with Brother Lee on anything. I'm not asking you to. I'm not asking anyone to. I have no such expectation, aspiration, or motive. It's neither here or there to me.

Here is where the plane lands: What matters is God's testimony according to the Bible. What the Bible says is all that matters. We should only care for God's facts. Our life is a life of faith. Faith substantiates God's facts into us. Like our physical eyes substantiate the shape, color, and beauty of a flower so faith substantiates all the divine realities into our being.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

Drake

Faith is intensely personal. Hebrews 11 gives stories of great sacrifice by those who knew their God personally. Lee's version of faith was a collective. Instead of "all shall know Me from the little to the great," it was morphed into a degraded "only the great one shall know Him," and all others need to follow "the man" who knows God.

Knowing the personal voice of the Great Shepherd was constantly warned against. What about "My sheep know My voice?" Instead we were taught never to trust our own heart and spirit. We must learn to "trust the body," never doing anything that "offends the body," and always endeavor to be "one with the ministry."

Saints ended up paralyzed in the faith, living like robots, waiting for orders from headquarters, and the never ending need for more "training." We were trained to believe that the greatest sins were to be ambitious or independent.

Where's that verse in the Bible, Drake?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

Igzy,


Here is where the plane lands: What matters is God's testimony according to the Bible. What the Bible says is all that matters. We should only care for God's facts. Our life is a life of faith. Faith substantiates God's facts into us. Like our physical eyes substantiate the shape, color, and beauty of a flower so faith substantiates all the divine realities into our being.

I agree completely. But accepting only one man's word, believing he is the "minister of the age," is totally contrary to that approach. What you offered requires personal prayer, examining multiple sources, validating experiences, creative thinking and open-mindedness. God is always "outside the box." So if you are limiting yourself to some ministry's box, you are probably going to get things wrong. Yes to the bible. No to only one ministry's interpretation of the bible.

This is why no more recovery will happen in "the Recovery." The mindset is 180 degrees opposite of what it takes to see something fresh. That's quite ironic.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

So then another fact according to God's Word is that we, the believers have been crucified with Christ... and the life we now live.. what life? His life not the old crucified life, not the self you were born with because it was crucified. Christ is the new man we live. But you ask, what of Drake or what of Igzy.... we are not illusions as you say. But the fact does not follow the experience. The fact is not dependent on experience. Experience follows the divine fact but only by faith.

I have been lectured for decades about these "truths" from Lee. I aspired to Lee's interpretations of these truths because I was convinced he had something no one else had, and that he lived what he preached.

Later I found out that he defrauded us. Lee never lived what he taught. His teachings were good for us, but not for him. So we must conclude that every interpretation by Lee, outside fundamental Christian orthodoxy, is leaven at best, and must be discarded.