Important Announcement regarding the Alternative Views Subforum

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

But, on the whole, I do think the GOP has the edge in the truth department, only because there are more born-agains in that camp . . .

I have observed that conservatives prefer knowing the truth and applying an objective assessment, and tend to pause until the facts are known. Saw that with Kavanaugh. Same with that Covington HS kid. Another big one was that monuments debate in Charlottesville. Russia collusion. Ukrainian quid pro quo. Trump emoluments. I could go on all day . . .

I even saw it with Joe Biden and Tara Reade. Conservatives paused and wanted due process, same as they did with Kavanaugh, but the Left moved to quickly dismiss and smear the victim messenger.

Being conservative doesn't mean perfection, and there have been many failures, yet being fair and honest is a Christian trait. On the contrary, I see very little fair and honest on the left. Mostly reactionary sheeple who take their marching orders from the daily mass email.

[zeek]

Can someone explain to me why the same people who don't need to wear a mask because God will protect them also need an AR-15 because God won't?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Can someone explain to me why the same people who don't need to wear a mask because God will protect them also need an AR-15 because God won't?

Dr. Fauci said that the mask does nothing, and it's only a symbol.

Stopping a virus with a mask is like restraining mosquitoes with a chain link fence.

After 3 months of this nonsense, people are seeing the hypocrisy in our leaders, especially the Democratic governors, and deciding that wearing masks is a joke. It's nothing more than a fashion statement at this point.

Wearing a mask is more dangerous than not. By hiding one's face, all forms of criminal activity can be done under the cloak of anonymity. There's reasons why criminals hide behind masks, and the dangers from criminals exceeds the dangers from this virus. Because of this, now more than ever people feel the need for firarms.

You should be thankful that you have a great governor in DiSantis.

[zeek]

The latest science on effectiveness of wearing masks: https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...cience.abc6197
Bottom line: it is not political, it is your way of slowing the spread and showing others that you care about their health!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The latest science on effectiveness of wearing masks: https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...cience.abc6197
Bottom line: it is not political, it is your way of slowing the spread and showing others that you care about their health!

Sounds more like virtue signaling than science.

Now the criminals behind masks are telling us what "science" is. Buyer beware!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You should be thankful that you have a great governor in DiSantis.

Not as thankful as we are of Kentucky's governor. While DiSantis has done little to protect the health of his citizens, or not as much as my Democratic governor ; Florida's cases are still on the rise, while Kentucky's is on the decline.

See, Trump's retweet that, "The only good democrat is a dead democrat," is far from true. But since when has Trump ever cared about truth? who cares less about human life than Disantis, like so many other republican governors, whether born again or not ; that doesn't seem to move Christians to follow the teachings of Jesus.

What good does being born again do? It doesn't look like any good. It sure doesn't seem to cause loving your neighbor as yourself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not as thankful as we are of Kentucky's governor. While DiSantis has done little to protect the health of his citizens, or not as much as my Democratic governor ; Florida's cases are still on the rise, while Kentucky's is on the decline.

Florida's Governor did much to protect his citizens, especially the sick and the elderly, and that is where he put all of his efforts, contrary to Andrew Cuomo, who forced his nursing homes to take covid- 19 patients. Who would do that? Cuomo is responsible for murdering thousands. In fact, it looks like nearly all the Democratic governors are totally brain dead when it comes to the difficult decisions needed today.

[Ohio]

Progressive Insanity in Minneapolis:

• George Floyd, a known peacemaker without a criminal record, unknowingly passes a bogus $20 bill
• Police send 4 cops to arrest him for his "horrendous" crime
• Cop with long rap sheet of abuses brutally kills the man
• Hennepin County decides not to arrest the cops until more evidence is found
• Looters and arsonists destroy the community while police and national guard effectively stand down
• Mayor calls on looters and rioters to properly "social distance" and wear their masks
• Police make only one arrest -- a black CNN reporter
• Riots, looting, shooting, and destruction spread to a city near you
• Trump calls on Mayor to take decisive action, or he will, and Twitter censors him for "violent" speech
• Progressive media decides that Minnesota mayhem is all Trump's fault

[zeek]

FYI I was sent this message this morning on Facebook messenger:

Dear saints,
Below is a letter composed by Rick Scatterday along with another doctor in the Lord’s recovery. This letter was given in response to a question that was recently presented to brother Rick. We feel to share it with all of you, because as you will see in reading it, it gives a very balanced view related to considerations all the churches will be facing in the future related to meetings. In addition, we brothers in Dallas would like to offer some fellowship at the end of this letter.
Considerations Regarding the Relaxation of COVID-19 Mitigation Measures, May 12, 2020
• Governmental and public health authorities agree that the relaxation of pandemic mitigation measures as called for by federal and state guidelines is not related to a decrease in risk of infection, but rather to socioeconomic pressures. They agree that such relaxation is premature from the standpoint of public safety, but is described as being economically and politically unavoidable.
• This realization is important, as it should urge us to continue to exercise protective measures as thoroughly as possible within the limits of the practicality of our situation.
• Observations related to analogous past pandemics, and the experience of other countries with COVID-19 predict that we may experience a second wave of infection. In some previous pandemics, this second wave has been worse than the first.
• Assumptions made based upon early observations in China that children and young people are less susceptible to COVID-19 infection and complications have not been confirmed by the experience in Europe and the United States.
• We should anticipate that it will take 1-2 years for the COVID-19 pandemic to resolve. This may be affected by the speed with which an effective vaccine becomes available, which at present is projected to be possibly in 2021.
• The responsibility that the brothers leading the churches bear to be protective of the well-being of the saints favors a position that the churches not quickly restore their corporate (face-to-face) meeting schedule in concert with the reopening of businesses, pending a period of cautious observation as to the situation in the community.
• When an employee is directed to return to work, he must do so. When a saint decides to move freely in the community, they are certainly entitled to do so. But, to repeat, the community is no safer, and probably less so now than when the mitigation measures were instituted. For the elders to lead the saints to on-site corporate meetings in the midst of a known hazard, especially as it relates to our significant population of older or otherwise predisposed persons, would seem to involve some responsibility for the potentially serious consequences.
• After the COVID-19 mitigation measures are substantially relaxed, how long would it take to be able to project the new baseline situation?
o It appears that an additional period of up to 4-6 weeks would be needed. If a person is infected as soon as the mitigation measures are relaxed, the incubation period of the virus to the point of the development of symptoms could be up to two weeks. From the time of initiation of symptoms, it could take another one to two weeks for the symptoms to reach their height, and for hospitalization, when necessary, to be required. In more serious cases, the hospitalization period could be one to two weeks, or longer.
o Thus, only some weeks after liberalization will we know the new baseline for risk of infection and of more serious complications.
• When the responsible brothers in a locality feel that it is safe to reconvene on-site corporate meetings, it would be prudent to do so in phases.
o Caution would suggest beginning with smaller gatherings, while carefully heeding the situation among the saints and in the community.
o It would be prudent to remind the saints that the risk of COVID-19 contact and spread in the community has not diminished significantly, and that when resuming our meetings continued endeavor to apply recommended protective measures is still very important.
• Protectively speaking, it would be best for us to recommend that saints age 65 and older to not participate in corporate gatherings until a vaccine is available. In many cases, this would include the responsible brothers.
o During all phases of reopening, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) recommends only virtual meetings for those who are “vulnerable populations,” including those over age 65.
o It is not beneficial for the responsible brothers in this age group to feel that they need to be patterns to the saints by returning to the first reconvened gatherings.
o Rather, they should realize that the example that is most needed is for them to be patterns to the older, more vulnerable saints by remaining at home for safety reasons.
• When corporate meetings are opened and endorsed by the leading ones, they will certainly want to provide the option to saints who would like to remain back for health reasons to do so without feeling that they are violating the fellowship of the church.
o The elders may want to urge the saints to respect the decision of others who feel that they should remain under restriction when the church meeting schedule liberalizes. Hopefully, any who would like to exercise additional caution would sense support, rather than well-intended pressure to return.
o The elders may want to oversee the situation of saints who are hesitant to rejoin in-person meetings to assure that they have continued optimal access to virtual gatherings and fellowship.
• To optimize communication to the saints as to the direction to be taken by the church, the leading ones may want to convey their considerations to the saints in written form as well as verbally.
Our additional word of fellowship.
Dear saints,
We all find ourselves sovereignly in a very perplexing situation. In consideration of how to proceed in the future we very much appreciate the above fellowship offered by brothers, who have a long history of serving the Lord as medical doctors in the Lord’s recovery. In addition, we have appreciated the excerpts that are being attached to the Unceasingly Pray items each day. They have been very encouraging and enlightening. We also greatly look forward to the upcoming Memorial Day conference, which general subject is titled A Timely Word Concerning the World Situation and the Lord’s Recovery
Recently in fellowship with a number of the brothers bearing the leadership in the nine churches in the area, there were three points that came out in that fellowship. We realized in times like this that the enemy would like to frustrate our enjoyment of the blessing by damaging the one accord among the saints in the churches. With the need to consider how we go forward in our meeting life, there are at least three crucial matters we must practice.
1. Fellowship – In the Body, in the Word, in the New Testament ministry, with the saints, the churches and the coworker. There are at least two portions in the Word which focus on fellowship; 1 Cor. 1:9 and 1 John 1:3 – In these verses words and phrases are used to convey the importance of fellowship. Union, participation in Him. Putting away private interests and joining with others for a common purpose. In essence we maintain the fellowship and participate in its covering and oneness by setting aside our private interests to carry out God’s interest, His good pleasure
2. Seeking His Will – Inquiring as to what does the Lord want? Lord, what do You need to gain in this situation that You would get the glory and we would get Your blessing? Matt. 6:10 “…Your will be done…” We recommend two portions of ministry; 1) Deut. 30:15-16 and the HWMR Deut. Week 12 Day 4, the last two paragraphs. Which mentions that the life of a Christian is a life of blessing. 2) Excerpts from The Meaning and Purpose of Prayer, Chapter 1, p16-17. The last two paragraphs speak of the need of inquiring of the Lord.
3. Caring for one another. 1 John 4:7 …Love one another… Gal 6:10 ... let us do what is good toward all, but especially toward those of the household of the faith. Rom. 14:13 says, “Therefore let us judge one another no longer, but rather judge this: not to put a stumbling block or cause of falling before your brother.
As we have seen, our country is divided on a lot of issues and there are always at least two sides of every issue with ideas and opinions on how to handle things. Paul in 1 Cor. 6:12 said, “All things are lawful to me, but not all things are profitable…” In Rom. 14:13, he charges not to put a stumbling block before your brother. The Lord also said in Luke 17:1, “… It is impossible for causes of stumbling not to come, but woe to him through whom they come.” Many times, when we hold on to our opinion about what should or shouldn’t be done, or the way something should be or shouldn’t be done, we can either embolden people to follow our way or offend people by our way. Therefore, even if you or I have the feeling to take the liberty to relax the prescribed safety restrictions that the government has laid out in these days, we should not forget to care for others’ concerns. Not to embolden, judge or possibly stumble others in exercising our own liberty. Paul, in the matter of food said in 1 cor. 8:13, “Therefore if food stumbles my brother, I shall by no means eat meat forever, that I may not stumble my brother. Phil. 2: 1-3 If there is therefore and encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any tenderheartedness and compassions, Make my joy full, that you think the same thing, having the same love, joined in soul, thinking the one thing, Doing nothing by way of selfish ambition nor by way of vainglory, but in lowliness of mind considering one another more excellent that yourselves.
Therefore, we need to take heed to open to the Lord and stay in fellowship to cooperate with the Lord and His Body to carry out His good pleasure. We need to see His will in all things. And we need to care for, honor and love one another. May the Lord save us in the His recovery from our opinions and let us do all things be done for the building up. 1 Cor. 14:26
Your brothers in Christ
#churchnews #localchurch

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

FYI I was sent this message this morning on Facebook messenger:

Dear saints,
Below is a letter composed by Rick Scatterday along with another doctor in the Lord’s recovery. This letter was given in response to a question that was recently presented to brother Rick. We feel to share it with all of you, because as you will see in reading it, it gives a very balanced view related to considerations all the churches will be facing in the future related to meetings. In addition, we brothers in Dallas would like to offer some fellowship at the end of this letter.
Considerations Regarding the Relaxation of COVID-19 Mitigation Measures, May 12, 2020
• Governmental and public health authorities agree that the relaxation of pandemic mitigation measures as called for by federal and state guidelines is not related to a decrease in risk of infection, but rather to socioeconomic pressures. They agree that such relaxation is premature from the standpoint of public safety, but is described as being economically and politically unavoidable.
• This realization is important, as it should urge us to continue to exercise protective measures as thoroughly as possible within the limits of the practicality of our situation.
• Observations related to analogous past pandemics, and the experience of other countries with COVID-19 predict that we may experience a second wave of infection. In some previous pandemics, this second wave has been worse than the first.
• Assumptions made based upon early observations in China that children and young people are less susceptible to COVID-19 infection and complications have not been confirmed by the experience in Europe and the United States.
• We should anticipate that it will take 1-2 years for the COVID-19 pandemic to resolve. This may be affected by the speed with which an effective vaccine becomes available, which at present is projected to be possibly in 2021.
• The responsibility that the brothers leading the churches bear to be protective of the well-being of the saints favors a position that the churches not quickly restore their corporate (face-to-face) meeting schedule in concert with the reopening of businesses, pending a period of cautious observation as to the situation in the community.
• When an employee is directed to return to work, he must do so. When a saint decides to move freely in the community, they are certainly entitled to do so. But, to repeat, the community is no safer, and probably less so now than when the mitigation measures were instituted. For the elders to lead the saints to on-site corporate meetings in the midst of a known hazard, especially as it relates to our significant population of older or otherwise predisposed persons, would seem to involve some responsibility for the potentially serious consequences.
• After the COVID-19 mitigation measures are substantially relaxed, how long would it take to be able to project the new baseline situation?
o It appears that an additional period of up to 4-6 weeks would be needed. If a person is infected as soon as the mitigation measures are relaxed, the incubation period of the virus to the point of the development of symptoms could be up to two weeks. From the time of initiation of symptoms, it could take another one to two weeks for the symptoms to reach their height, and for hospitalization, when necessary, to be required. In more serious cases, the hospitalization period could be one to two weeks, or longer.
o Thus, only some weeks after liberalization will we know the new baseline for risk of infection and of more serious complications.
• When the responsible brothers in a locality feel that it is safe to reconvene on-site corporate meetings, it would be prudent to do so in phases.
o Caution would suggest beginning with smaller gatherings, while carefully heeding the situation among the saints and in the community.
o It would be prudent to remind the saints that the risk of COVID-19 contact and spread in the community has not diminished significantly, and that when resuming our meetings continued endeavor to apply recommended protective measures is still very important.
• Protectively speaking, it would be best for us to recommend that saints age 65 and older to not participate in corporate gatherings until a vaccine is available. In many cases, this would include the responsible brothers.
o During all phases of reopening, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) recommends only virtual meetings for those who are “vulnerable populations,” including those over age 65.
o It is not beneficial for the responsible brothers in this age group to feel that they need to be patterns to the saints by returning to the first reconvened gatherings.
o Rather, they should realize that the example that is most needed is for them to be patterns to the older, more vulnerable saints by remaining at home for safety reasons.
• When corporate meetings are opened and endorsed by the leading ones, they will certainly want to provide the option to saints who would like to remain back for health reasons to do so without feeling that they are violating the fellowship of the church.
o The elders may want to urge the saints to respect the decision of others who feel that they should remain under restriction when the church meeting schedule liberalizes. Hopefully, any who would like to exercise additional caution would sense support, rather than well-intended pressure to return.
o The elders may want to oversee the situation of saints who are hesitant to rejoin in-person meetings to assure that they have continued optimal access to virtual gatherings and fellowship.
• To optimize communication to the saints as to the direction to be taken by the church, the leading ones may want to convey their considerations to the saints in written form as well as verbally.
Our additional word of fellowship.
Dear saints,
We all find ourselves sovereignly in a very perplexing situation. In consideration of how to proceed in the future we very much appreciate the above fellowship offered by brothers, who have a long history of serving the Lord as medical doctors in the Lord’s recovery. In addition, we have appreciated the excerpts that are being attached to the Unceasingly Pray items each day. They have been very encouraging and enlightening. We also greatly look forward to the upcoming Memorial Day conference, which general subject is titled A Timely Word Concerning the World Situation and the Lord’s Recovery
Recently in fellowship with a number of the brothers bearing the leadership in the nine churches in the area, there were three points that came out in that fellowship. We realized in times like this that the enemy would like to frustrate our enjoyment of the blessing by damaging the one accord among the saints in the churches. With the need to consider how we go forward in our meeting life, there are at least three crucial matters we must practice.
1. Fellowship – In the Body, in the Word, in the New Testament ministry, with the saints, the churches and the coworker. There are at least two portions in the Word which focus on fellowship; 1 Cor. 1:9 and 1 John 1:3 – In these verses words and phrases are used to convey the importance of fellowship. Union, participation in Him. Putting away private interests and joining with others for a common purpose. In essence we maintain the fellowship and participate in its covering and oneness by setting aside our private interests to carry out God’s interest, His good pleasure
2. Seeking His Will – Inquiring as to what does the Lord want? Lord, what do You need to gain in this situation that You would get the glory and we would get Your blessing? Matt. 6:10 “…Your will be done…” We recommend two portions of ministry; 1) Deut. 30:15-16 and the HWMR Deut. Week 12 Day 4, the last two paragraphs. Which mentions that the life of a Christian is a life of blessing. 2) Excerpts from The Meaning and Purpose of Prayer, Chapter 1, p16-17. The last two paragraphs speak of the need of inquiring of the Lord.
3. Caring for one another. 1 John 4:7 …Love one another… Gal 6:10 ... let us do what is good toward all, but especially toward those of the household of the faith. Rom. 14:13 says, “Therefore let us judge one another no longer, but rather judge this: not to put a stumbling block or cause of falling before your brother.
As we have seen, our country is divided on a lot of issues and there are always at least two sides of every issue with ideas and opinions on how to handle things. Paul in 1 Cor. 6:12 said, “All things are lawful to me, but not all things are profitable…” In Rom. 14:13, he charges not to put a stumbling block before your brother. The Lord also said in Luke 17:1, “… It is impossible for causes of stumbling not to come, but woe to him through whom they come.” Many times, when we hold on to our opinion about what should or shouldn’t be done, or the way something should be or shouldn’t be done, we can either embolden people to follow our way or offend people by our way. Therefore, even if you or I have the feeling to take the liberty to relax the prescribed safety restrictions that the government has laid out in these days, we should not forget to care for others’ concerns. Not to embolden, judge or possibly stumble others in exercising our own liberty. Paul, in the matter of food said in 1 cor. 8:13, “Therefore if food stumbles my brother, I shall by no means eat meat forever, that I may not stumble my brother. Phil. 2: 1-3 If there is therefore and encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any tenderheartedness and compassions, Make my joy full, that you think the same thing, having the same love, joined in soul, thinking the one thing, Doing nothing by way of selfish ambition nor by way of vainglory, but in lowliness of mind considering one another more excellent that yourselves.
Therefore, we need to take heed to open to the Lord and stay in fellowship to cooperate with the Lord and His Body to carry out His good pleasure. We need to see His will in all things. And we need to care for, honor and love one another. May the Lord save us in the His recovery from our opinions and let us do all things be done for the building up. 1 Cor. 14:26
Your brothers in Christ
#churchnews #localchurch

And I might add, stop calling on the lord and stop being "the shouters." It shoots the virus out in the air some 20 feet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And I might add, stop calling on the lord and stop being "the shouters." It shoots the virus out in the air some 20 feet.

And why don't you take this same message to Minneapolis and many other major cities and tell all of these rioters to stop "shouting?" Aren't you worried about covid spreading among these anarchists?

Isn't it always easier and definitely safer to criticize these awful Christians?

Yesterday SCOTUS ruled that peaceful worshippers in church could be shut down. They ruled against the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Because it's always easier to criticize law-abiding and peaceful Christians.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And why don't you take this same message to Minneapolis and many other major cities and tell all of these rioters to stop "shouting?" Aren't you worried about covid spreading among these anarchists?

Isn't it always easier and definitely safer to criticize these awful Christians?

Yesterday SCOTUS ruled that peaceful worshippers in church could be shut down. They ruled against the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Because it's always easier to criticize law-abiding and peaceful Christians.

Where two or three are gathered.

[Sons to Glory!]

I just saw this on countmeworthy's signature line and it spoke to me a little regarding what we see unfolding: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
(Luke 21:36)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've made an interesting discovery. I walk a lot. Talk a lot with friends and neighbors. Made a simple conclusion a while ago, which has been true with almost no exception -- the more liberal, the more afraid; and the more conservative, the less afraid.

Perhaps this is because of the news they watch. Perhaps because the conservatives tend to be God-fearing and God-trusting. Perhaps other reasons. Many of the liberals are just spooked irrationally. Many of the conservatives view it as a hoax.

Perhaps it's nothing more than a self-reinforcing prophecy -- some tend to believe what they want to be true.

I do think news plays a big role. Turn off the news and you're somewhat unaffected by the narrative. The news are by and large anti-conservative 24/7. I do think the hatred for Trump is so strong, they're willing to cut off the hand to spite the thumb. They really want to believe the anti-conservative narrative as truth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I do think news plays a big role. Turn off the news and you're somewhat unaffected by the narrative. The news are by and large anti-conservative 24/7. I do think the hatred for Trump is so strong, they're willing to cut off the hand to spite the thumb. They really want to believe the anti-conservative narrative as truth.

I have never seen so much deceptive brain-washing coming from the media. They constantly cut-and-paste Trump's words to smear him.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Terry

I do think news plays a big role. Turn off the news and you're somewhat unaffected by the narrative. The news are by and large anti-conservative 24/7. I do think the hatred for Trump is so strong, they're willing to cut off the hand to spite the thumb. They really want to believe the anti-conservative narrative as truth.

Here is something I read that amazed me about media bias, and this should make it into the textbooks. It's a quote from a letter by 44 "journalists of color" who work for the Philadelphia Inquirer, sent to the newspaper. The letter is in response to a June 2nd op-ed piece the paper ran titled "Buildings Matter Too" that these 44 journalists didn't agree with. I find their response a little breathtaking, due to their unvarnished admittance that they have discarded all semblance of balanced reporting and that they actually put this in writing!

“We’re tired of seeing our words and photos twisted to fit a narrative that does not reflect our reality,” the letter stated. “We’re tired of being told to show both sides of issues there are no two sides of.”

From Here: New York Daily News article about 44 Philadelphia Jounalist Letter

Please tell me if this article about these journalists' letter, and also what they said in meetings with the paper's management, amazed you as much as it did me! (and of course, the newspaper completely caved to these journalists' demands . . .)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Please tell me if this article about these journalists' letter, and also what they said in meetings with the paper's management, amazed you as much as it did me! (and of course, the newspaper completely caved to these journalists' demands . . .)

The media has absolutely become propaganda brainwashing.


Anyone to the right of AOC is being targeted.

[TLFisher]

“We’re tired of seeing our words and photos twisted to fit a narrative that does not reflect our reality,” the letter stated. “We’re tired of being told to show both sides of issues there are no two sides of.”

This is not one-sided. It can go both ways. I am tired of seeing events being twisted and presented to fit a narrative that is far from accuracy. There are two sides to every issue and somewhere between is the truth.
Everything occurring in 2020 is about an election. From impeachment to covid to riots to a second covid wave and with each phase their best efforts are coming up short. Consider what will be next between now and November?
It's okay to assemble to protest and riot, but it's not okay for presidential rallies?
It's okay to assemble to protest and riot, but it's not okay to go to stand in line and cast your vote? Just as I am sure one side will push vote by mail, the other side will be pushing voter ID.
I am not a Trump supporter nearly as much as I oppose the injustice perpetrated against Trump and those in his inner circle. Really if readers want to know what this boils down to, what I see the media and the left doing to conservatives is much the same propaganda as LSM did to quarantined brothers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

“We’re tired of seeing our words and photos twisted to fit a narrative that does not reflect our reality,” the letter stated. “We’re tired of being told to show both sides of issues there are no two sides of.”

This is not one-sided. It can go both ways. I am tired of seeing events being twisted and presented to fit a narrative that is far from accuracy. There are two sides to every issue and somewhere between is the truth.
Everything occurring in 2020 is about an election. From impeachment to covid to riots to a second covid wave and with each phase their best efforts are coming up short. Consider what will be next between now and November?
It's okay to assemble to protest and riot, but it's not okay for presidential rallies?
It's okay to assemble to protest and riot, but it's not okay to go to stand in line and cast your vote? Just as I am sure one side will push vote by mail, the other side will be pushing voter ID.
I am not a Trump supporter nearly as much as I oppose the injustice perpetrated against Trump and those in his inner circle. Really if readers want to know what this boils down to, what I see the media and the left doing to conservatives is much the same propaganda as LSM did to quarantined brothers.

So well said, bro!!!!!!!!

Here's another line that applies, "They don't hate Trump, they hate us as conservatives, constitutionalists, and Christians -- Trump just got in the way!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

I do think the hatred for Trump is so strong, they're willing to cut off the hand to spite the thumb.

More like cut off the dumb to heal the land.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

More like cut off the dumb to heal the land.

Tell me again how many dozens of innocent blacks have to die while we are daily preached to about "Black Lives Matter."

Here is the Official DoubleSpeak interpretation: Black Lives only Matter when they die in the custody of white police.

[Ohio]

Complete Moron named "Ohio" Doesn't Realize Social Justice Activists Changed The Definition Of Every Word Last Week




Gahanna, Ohio — Really smart experts everywhere are pulling their hair out with frustration due to thousands of uneducated people not realizing leading voices in critical theory and social justice activism changed all the definitions of every meaningful word in the English language just a few days ago.

Tensions escalated today when Richard Christian, a YouTuber from greater Columbus, wrote the comment: “I dunno... as a white man, I don’t think I’m a racist or that America is a racist country.”

At that ignorant statement, thousands of well-educated voices at universities around the country suddenly cried out in terror and refused to be silent.

“I literally just can’t with this guy,” said Xandace Bertheratrix, Dean of Race and Gender studies at NYU. “Doesn’t he know that whiteness isn’t a race but a system of oppression, and that maleness isn’t a gender but a system of oppression, and that America isn’t a place but a system of oppression, and that it’s literally impossible for those things to not be racist? I mean, come on, man!” Dr. Bertheratrix barely got her sentence out before hyperventilating and collapsing on the floor.

Unfortunately, the NYU staff overheard Xandace use the non-inclusive phrase “come on, man.” She was quickly carried off by campus social justice enforcers.

Further investigation revealed the horrifying truth that Richard didn't even know the definition of any of these terms:

• Queerantagonism
• Non-consensual co-platforming
• Brown fragility
• Microinvalidations
• Mathematx
• Intercorporeality
• Autoethnography

Richard has been ordered to take reeducation courses or his homestead will be canceled.

A GoFundMe account has been started for poor Ohio. All posters are asked to prayerfully consider his desperate plight.

[awareness]

While y'all prattle on about this group and that group (see Cal's recent youtube), and protests permitted while Trump rallies aren't, Covid-19 has other plans :

Trump campaign backs off in-person events as coronavirus cases pick up

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/01/trum...s-pick-up.html

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Complete Moron named "Ohio" Doesn't Realize Social Justice Activists Changed The Definition Of Every Word Last Week

Ohio, it's been over 30 years - is that you workin' the farm!?

[awareness]

List Of 183 Monuments Ruined Since Protests Began, And Counting

https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/22...-and-counting/

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

List Of 183 Monuments Ruined Since Protests Began, And Counting

https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/22...-and-counting/

Just hunks of metal, stone or plaster in my book . . . I have no real attachment. I understand both sides of this I think, but I'm not for pulling them down or destroying them. That is analogous to anarchy, and God is not the Author of confusion. But we are instructed to remember that it will all pass and be burnt with a fervent heat, so where should our hearts and minds be?

And patriotism taken a too far, in my book, is simply idol worship. Many worship the idea of this country and the American Dream. God's mercy is in waking us up from dreaming about things that are not eternal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Just hunks of metal, stone or plaster in my book . . . I have no real attachment. I understand both sides of this I think, but I'm not for pulling them down or destroying them. That is analogous to anarchy, and God is not the Author of confusion. But we are instructed to remember that it will all pass and be burnt with a fervent heat, so where should our hearts and minds be?

And patriotism taken a too far, in my book, is simply idol worship. Many worship the idea of this country and the American Dream. God's mercy is in waking us up from dreaming about things that are not eternal.

I agree. Politicians love to build monuments to themselves. We should remember and honor great ideas and great speeches rather than great monuments.

But anarchists have no right to tear them down. They did nothing to put them up. First comes monuments, then buildings, then ideas, then people. This is what the Hitler Fascists, the Mao Communists, the Lenin Marxists, and the Stalin Communists have also done. The goal is never a better country, but destruction of the current country, all to put these unelected people in charge.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree. Politicians love to build monuments to themselves. We should remember and honor great ideas and great speeches rather than great monuments.

But anarchists have no right to tear them down. They did nothing to put them up. First comes monuments, then buildings, then ideas, then people. This is what the Hitler Fascists, the Mao Communists, the Lenin Marxists, and the Stalin Communists have also done. The goal is never a better country, but destruction of the current country, all to put these unelected people in charge.

Oh bro Ohio, why do you act paranoid, and fearful of an imaginary future?

The statues are idols ... plan and simple.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh bro Ohio, why do you act paranoid, and fearful of an imaginary future?

Paranoid?

I guess these antifa / blm riots have not yet come knocking on your door.

Otherwise we would see you with your shotgun standing outside of your door, like that guy in St. Louis.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paranoid?

I guess these antifa / blm riots have not yet come knocking on your door.

Otherwise we would see you with your shotgun standing outside of your door, like that guy in St. Louis.

There again ... scary scary scary ... those scary BLM and antifa bogymen ... BLM under your bed, and antifa in your closet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

There again ... scary scary scary ... those scary BLM and antifa bogymen ... BLM under your bed, and antifa in your closet.

300 of these rioters, screaming violent threats, just busted down his front gate.

But to the blind following the blind, "nothing to see here folks."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

300 of these rioters, screaming violent threats, just busted down his front gate.

But to the blind following the blind, "nothing to see here folks."

Oh knock it off trying to defend those bottom feeding ambulance chasers.

In Florida I worked for the world leader personal injury lawyer. Trust me. Even you wouldn't have liked him ... accept for maybe his money.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh knock it off trying to defend those bottom feeding ambulance chasers.

In Florida I worked for the world leader personal injury lawyer. Trust me. Even you wouldn't have liked him ... accept for maybe his money.

Here are the detailed instructions for hundreds of peaceful protesters sent to that guys house:

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh knock it off trying to defend those bottom feeding ambulance chasers.

My ... you have been cold!

Without their weapons, this couple would have been slaughtered by hundreds of "peaceful" protesters, armed with rocks, chains, knives, sledge hammers, frozen bottles, cement shakes, molotov cocktails, etc. They busted down his gate, threatened to kill his family and burn his house down because of his "white privilege."

But awareness says he was a lawyer, so let him die!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My ... you have been cold!

Without their weapons, this couple would have been slaughtered by hundreds of "peaceful" protesters, armed with rocks, chains, knives, sledge hammers, frozen bottles, cement shakes, molotov cocktails, etc. They busted down his gate, threatened to kill his family and burn his house down because of his "white privilege."

But awareness says he was a lawyer, so let him die!

Hey, that doesn't make sense - lawyers are predominately left-leaning, aren't they?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey, that doesn't make sense - lawyers are predominately left-leaning, aren't they?

That's the irony. That lawyer was a life-long big-city liberal Democrat who did lots of personal injury work for blacks. You would think they were on the same side. Think again. These anarchist Marxists hated his "white privilege." They said he didn't deserve that big house, and it should be theirs. 99% of the liberals and Democrats in this country have no clue what is happening.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's the irony. That lawyer was a life-long big-city liberal Democrat who did lots of personal injury work for blacks. You would think they were on the same side. Think again. These anarchist Marxists hated his "white privilege." They said he didn't deserve that big house, and it should be theirs. 99% of the liberals and Democrats in this country have no clue what is happening.

In my limited understanding of revolutions, that seems to make sense. That is, the ones generally supporting the revolutionist ideals are still no where as extremist as those driving the change, and they wind-up becoming a casualty themselves, and are quite surprised when that happens. In this case, someone who generally supported democrat/liberal ideas, are no where near the extreme Marxism and anarchy that they are encountering. They think they support it in theory, but it really means the end of "their little world" too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In my limited understanding of revolutions, that seems to make sense. That is, the ones generally supporting the revolutionist ideals are still no where as extremist as those driving the change, and they wind-up becoming a casualty themselves, and are quite surprised when that happens. In this case, someone who generally supported democrat/liberal ideas, are no where near the extreme Marxism and anarchy that they are encountering. They think they support it in theory, but it really means the end of "their little world" too.

Think about all of these rich white liberals caving in to pressure and funding BLM in order to virtue-signal. Note that BLM currently are providing no accountability for their "donations." Like Winston Churchill once told these idiots, "you are feeding the crocodile hoping it eats you last."

What is going to happen when the anarchist mob of poor woke white leftists comes for their cars and homes and daughters? I tell my liberal neighbors, some of whom now proudly parade their BLM yard signs, that they got their nice cars and houses due to "white privilege," and they really don't deserve anything that they own. They look at me with shock, and then say, "that'll never happen."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Think about all of these rich white liberals caving in to pressure and funding BLM in order to virtue-signal. Note that BLM currently are providing no accountability for their "donations." Like Winston Churchill once told these idiots, "you are feeding the crocodile hoping it eats you last."

What is going to happen when the anarchist mob of poor woke white leftists comes for their cars and homes and daughters? I tell my liberal neighbors, some of whom now proudly parade their BLM yard signs, that they got their nice cars and houses due to "white privilege," and they really don't deserve anything that they own. They look at me with shock, and then say, "that'll never happen."

Right! As Awareness pointed out earlier, we have laws and courts that (supposedly) won't let that happen!

Listen, I love this country, but the tide of this world in fleshly Adam is rapidly sweeping the USA. The spirit of anti-christ is working in the sons of disobedience. Our response? It's as we sing, "Kings and kingdoms will all pass away, there's just something about that Name!" So my ultimate allegiance is with the King - all hail King Jesus!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What is going to happen when the anarchist mob of poor woke white leftists comes for their cars and homes and daughters? I tell my liberal neighbors, some of whom now proudly parade their BLM yard signs, that they got their nice cars and houses due to "white privilege," and they really don't deserve anything that they own.

They look at me with shock, and then say, "that'll never happen."

Well it did happen -- just a few blocks from my old home and meeting hall.

Idiot mayor supports BLM until they arrive at his own front door.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree. Politicians love to build monuments to themselves. We should remember and honor great ideas and great speeches rather than great monuments.

But anarchists have no right to tear them down. They did nothing to put them up. First comes monuments, then buildings, then ideas, then people. This is what the Hitler Fascists, the Mao Communists, the Lenin Marxists, and the Stalin Communists have also done. The goal is never a better country, but destruction of the current country, all to put these unelected people in charge.

Think George Orwell's 1984
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

Kind of reminds me of LC groupthink on a much larger scale

[Ohio]

TIM ALLEN - ON TRUMP ...

Whatever your feelings for Trump, these are some interesting points that Tim Allen makes. Put your hatred aside and think about these observations. Tim Allen is credited with writing this. Here are some interesting points to think about prior to 2020, especially to my friends on the fence, like moderate Democrats, Libertarians and Independents and the never Trump Republicans and those thinking of "walking away" from the Democratic party.

• Women are upset at Trump’s naughty words -- they also bought 80 million copies of 50 Shades of Gray.

• Not one feminist has defended Sarah Sanders. It seems women’s rights only matter if those women are liberal.

• No Border Walls. No voter ID laws. Did you figure it out yet? But wait... there's more.

• Chelsea Clinton got out of college and got a job at NBC that paid $900,000 per year. Her mom flies around the country speaking out about white privilege.

• And just like that, they went from being against foreign interference in our elections to allowing non-citizens to vote in our elections.

• President Trump’s wall costs less than the Obamacare website. Let that sink in, America.

• We are one election away from open borders, socialism, gun confiscation, and full-term abortion nationally. We are fighting evil.

• They sent more troops and armament to arrest Roger Stone than they sent to defend Benghazi.

• 60 years ago, Venezuela was 4th on the world economic freedom index. Today, they are 179th and their citizens are dying of starvation. In only 10 years, Venezuela was destroyed by democratic socialism.

• Russia donated $0.00 to the Trump campaign. Russia donated $145,600,000 to the Clinton Foundation. But Trump was the one investigated!

• Nancy Pelosi invited illegal aliens to the State of the Union. President Trump Invited victims of illegal aliens to the State of the Union. Let that sink in.

• A socialist is basically a communist who doesn’t have the power to take everything from their citizens at gunpoint ... Yet!

• How do you walk 3000 miles across Mexico without food or support and show up at our border 100 pounds overweight and with a cellphone?

• Alexandria Ocasio Cortez wants to ban cars, ban planes, give out universal income and thinks socialism works. She calls Donald Trump crazy.

• Bill Clinton paid $850,000 to Paula Jones to get her to go away. I don’t remember the FBI raiding his lawyer’s office.

• I wake up every day and I am grateful that Hillary Clinton is not the president of the United States of America.

• The same media that told me Hillary Clinton had a 95% chance of winning now tells me Trump’s approval ratings are low.

• “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”— Margaret Thatcher

• Maxine Waters opposes voter ID laws; She thinks that they are racist. You need to have a photo ID to attend her town hall meetings.

• President Trump said — "They’re not after me. They’re after you. I’m just in their way."

Read that again.

[awareness]

Look what happens when bumping into something you want to hear :

The comedian and actor Tim Allen wrote a lengthy Facebook post that attacked liberals and Democratic politicians and was shared widely in August 2019.

Misattributed

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ti...rals-facebook/

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Look what happens when bumping into something you want to hear :

The comedian and actor Tim Allen wrote a lengthy Facebook post that attacked liberals and Democratic politicians and was shared widely in August 2019.

Misattributed

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ti...rals-facebook/

Fact checkers like Snopes need additional corroboration before I accept anything they publish. But whether Allen was the source or not, I notice that you have accepted all the other statements as facts?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Fact checkers like Snopes need additional corroboration before I accept anything they publish. But whether Allen was the source or not, I notice that you have accepted all the other statements as facts?

Projecting yet again ...

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Fact checkers like Snopes need additional corroboration before I accept anything they publish. But whether Allen was the source or not, I notice that you have accepted all the other statements as facts?

Snopes, factcheck.org, Reuters, politifact.com, misbar.com, and more.

Seems that Reuters gave a lot of specific references to unnamed sources from times before Tim Allen's name was ever attributed to the list. And no one has a site to the list actually coming from Tim Allen, just claims that he did post it. (And he says he didn't.)

Sort of like the popular attribution of the statement "Always preach the gospel; if necessary, use words" to St. Francis of Assissi. It never happened. But because someone (Chuck Swindoll) said it back in the early 1990s, everyone is now saying it is true.

As for the content of the list, it has nice sound bites. But none of them are as
meaningful as the contextless snippets seem to suggest.

For example, "President Trump’s wall costs less than the Obamacare website." Referring to the cost of the repairs to the 200 existing miles of wall/fence, or the roughly 50 miles of new fence? The information on how much has actually been spent on the wall that was never officially financed is sketchy at best. If you are suggesting that the government is good at wasting money, that is a cross-party problem. Deficits increase under all presidents.

Or how about "Chelsea Clinton got out of college and got a job at NBC that paid $900,000 per year. Her mom flies around the country speaking out about white privilege." And the point is? I don't see a point. Just a bare fact. And it relates to Trump how? It says what about anything? Just a cold fact (assuming it is true) that makes no political statement. If the comment about Chelsea is supposed to say something about getting paid for being a Clinton, then how about Bushes all getting into the best schools, and mostly avoiding war, and then getting high-level jobs. No chance GHWB's credentials had anything to do with any of it?

A couple of the comments were noteworthy, though Tim Allen didn't post any of them. The one from Margaret Thatcher about socialism running out of other people's money is true. Yet the answer is not to simply be Scrooge and snarl at the poor and disadvantaged. You actually need to find something that helps without breaking the piggy bank. So ultimately, since Republicans tend to be "let them eat cake" kind of thinkers, you need some liberals around to raise the issues and come up with the start of solutions that pragmatic heads can bring down to earth so we actually do something that is both helpful and sustainable.

And while referencing Thatcher's statement, was that a well-researched statement that represented a comprehensive thumbs-down to liberal ideas en masse? Or was it a political statement made to rile up a conservative base during times of upheaval or election or in response to a particular liberal attempt to just do everything they think of? Just like in America, sound bites catch people's minds, but they are often not of real substance. Sort of like eating twinkies. They may taste good, but they have little nutritive value.

Just being snarky at the "other side" is not a solution. And it goes for the Bernies and AOCs on the left as well. That list — wherever it came from — does provide a few things to think about or look into. But it is not as meaningful as the typical Republican thinks it is. Instead, it points to the simple minds that think a few snarky words are sufficient to establish truth.
I'm getting flooded with ads, emails, and texts from both sides. And there are some similarities in the use of these kinds of simplistic statements at times. But this year the greater percentage of garbage statements has been coming from the Trump campaign. I've been tempted to answer their questionnaires, but I don't think they want my answers.

[Ohio]

These "snarky" comments were never designed to "establish truth" as you say, rather to make people think, though that is lost on you.

I find this quite provocative -- more armed agents were sent to arrest Roger Stone than to rescue Americans at our embassy.

"If you did not have such double standards, you would have none at all."

[Ohio]

Don'cha just hate when this happens . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These "snarky" comments were never designed to "establish truth" as you say, rather to make people think, though that is lost on you.

I find this quite provocative -- more armed agents were sent to arrest Roger Stone than to rescue Americans at our embassy.

"If you did not have such double standards, you would have none at all."

For the record : Tim Dick ... a comedian ... and an arch Trump supporting conservative.

I've always liked Tim. I consider him a smart guy. Back in the 90's I read is book : I'm not Really Here ; his philosophical take on Quantum Physics. I've got his book on one of my many book shelves -- the book is now worth over $300. BTW, it's my domain name : imnothere.org.

I really like his TV comedy show, Last Man Standing. I remember the brouhaha when ABC declined to renew the 7th season ; conservatives got all up in arms claiming it was canceled because Tim is a Trump supporting conservative -- in fact, Ohio, who doesn't watch the show, had to ring in on it out here. I didn't buy it ; his 3 daughters on the show were democrats. To me the show was/is fair and balanced. Seems conservatives like to play the victim. Turns out that wasn't the reason the show was canceled by ABC.

But that doesn't matter. Now a conservative cooked up this list, claiming to be by Tim Allen. And Ohio has jumped on this band wagon it again. I wonder way?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

For the record : Tim Dick ... a comedian ... and an arch Trump supporting conservative.

I've always liked Tim. I consider him a smart guy. Back in the 90's I read is book : I'm not Really Here ; his philosophical take on Quantum Physics. I've got his book on one of my many book shelves -- the book is now worth over $300. BTW, it's my domain name : imnothere.org.

I really like his TV comedy show, Last Man Standing. I remember the brouhaha when ABC declined to renew the 7th season ; conservatives got all up in arms claiming it was canceled because Tim is a Trump supporting conservative -- in fact, Ohio, who doesn't watch the show, had to ring in on it out here. I didn't buy it ; his 3 daughters on the show were democrats. To me the show was/is fair and balanced. Seems conservatives like to play the victim. Turns out that wasn't the reason the show was canceled by ABC.

But that doesn't matter. Now a conservative cooked up this list, claiming to be by Tim Allen. And Ohio has jumped on this band wagon it again. I wonder way?

Is it now against your "laws" to agree with other conservatives?

If there ever was a better "bandwagon," it's only with the democrats. Don't they control all of the media, entertainment, newspapers, sports athletes and management, all minorities, suburban women, tv stations, the elderly, social media, universities, rioters, judges, big pharma, hollywood, blm, big cities, millenials, big tech, antifa, search engines, billionaires, wall street, etc.? Who is left? Anyone?

Just a few "we the people" in the few Trump rallies they can't shut down.

So ... why are you so afraid? What makes you tremble at a few conservative facts? And the Bible?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is it now against your "laws" to agree with other conservatives?

If there ever was a better "bandwagon," it's only with the democrats. Don't they control all of the media, entertainment, newspapers, sports athletes and management, all minorities, suburban women, tv stations, the elderly, social media, universities, rioters, judges, big pharma, hollywood, blm, big cities, millenials, big tech, antifa, search engines, billionaires, wall street, etc.? Who is left? Anyone?

Just a few "we the people" in the few Trump rallies they can't shut down.

So ... why are you so afraid? What makes you tremble at a few conservative facts? And the Bible?

Yadda yadda yadda ... prattle.

[Sons to Glory!]

Boy, I have to say that this whole left/right thing has become a little foreign to me now. I have disconnected maybe 95% from feeding regularly on the news media and as a result, I have to say that when I observe partisans going at it, it is just something of an odd curiosity. Having a conservative/libertarian leaning myself, I don't even like to hear conservatives going on about all the things. For instance, I have a good friend who is absolutely consumed with the state GOP machinery, but I groan within when he begins telling all the "insider" information regarding why things are the way they are.

Why is there a groaning in me over this? Because both sides are blinded, and when you are blinded, you can't even see you are blinded. And what you are prone to do then is blame all the issues on the other side. But if you are blinded you can't see that (because of blindness). So the polarization continues, and without divine intervention it will likely increase exponentially in the days ahead. Once again, the only solution is Christ and His love in us for one another.

For freedom He set us free brothers - and that includes being free from the worldly hatred of the other side, or at the least, from looking down on the other side. (I know, I know - we would never say we "hate" another brother, but . . .)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Boy, I have to say that this whole left/right thing has become a little foreign to me now. I have disconnect maybe 95% from feeding regularly on the news media and as a result, I have to say that when I observe partisans going at it, it is just something of an odd curiosity. Having a conservative/libertarian leaning myself, I don't even like to hear conservatives going on about all the things. For instance, I have a good friend who is all wrapped-up in the state GOP machinery, but I groan within when he begins telling all the "insider" information regarding why things are the way they are.

Why is there a groaning in me over this? Because both sides are blinded, and when you are blinded, you can't even see you are blinded. And what you are prone to do then is blame all the issues on the other side. But if you are blinded you can't see that (because of blindness). So the polarization continues, and without divine intervention it will likely increase exponentially in the days ahead. Once again, the only solution is Christ and His love in us for one another.

For freedom He set us free brothers - and that includes being free from the worldly hatred of the other side, or at the least, from looking down on the other side. (I know, I know - we would never say we "hate" another brother, but . . .)

Well amen ... finally, the voice of reason.

[Ohio]

Great video clip by the Democrats! Enjoy!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...has_verified=1

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great video clip by the Democrats! Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...has_verified=1

Yeah, but it's free speech!

A big part of the problem I see is that many on the left have a very Utopian view of things. (I'm drawing much of this from Thomas Sowell's book, "A Conflict of Visions.") Utopian views (i.e., "Unconstrained Vision") seem quite visionary, however, they are not very practical when real-world implementation is tried. The other vision, according to Sowell, is the Constrained Vision, which sees that man has certain limitations that need to be accounted for and some restrictions applied accordingly. People on the right tend to fall more into this vision category (I think especially more among Christians). The constrained vision side sees man as having some inherent problems, that need to be considered to keep him from getting out of control.

The Utopian side believes mankind has everything in us to make a perfect society, if these darned Constrained Vision people would just let them. Utopianism seems positive and good, but in the end it is man trying to make it on his own, independent from God.

It's interesting what happens in practice between these two. Each vision sees the other as enacting things that restrict freedoms. But that perception is measured against how much the one side is trying to restrict the other's vision.

While I love a good sci-fi fantasy about the future, I must say that a Utopian view is not accurate except, of course, in Christ - Who will do far above what we ask or think! Apart from Him, it's all folly and lipstick on an absolutely dead pig.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yeah, but it's free speech!

A big part of the problem I see is that many on the left have a very Utopian view of things. (I'm drawing much of this from Thomas Sowell's book, "A Conflict of Visions.") Utopian views (i.e., "Unconstrained Vision") seem quite visionary, however, they are not very practical when real-world implementation is tried. The other vision, according to Sowell, is the Constrained Vision, which sees that man has certain limitations that need to be accounted for and some restrictions applied accordingly.

Thomas Sowell's story and writings are excellent!

This is how Democrats use this "Utopian View" today: Since at least one person has died from Covid, it proves Trump is evil, and should be tried for murder.

The Democrats always compare the Republicans with utopian perfection, yet never their own candidates. They all get a free pass.

I agree that only Jesus Christ will be the perfect King to rule the earth!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thomas Sowell's story and writings are excellent!

This is how Democrats use this "Utopian View" today: Since at least one person has died from Covid, it proves Trump is evil, and should be tried for murder.

The Democrats always compare the Republicans with utopian perfection, yet never their own candidates. They all get a free pass.

I agree that only Jesus Christ will be the perfect King to rule the earth!

Sowell never frames it as Christian world view vs. non-Christian. But you can definitely see the fingerprints of a belief in God with the Constrained Vision! (and a casting-off of that constraint in the Unconstrained Vision) Personally, this causes conflict in me when I try to straddle or reconcile the two visions.

For instance, much of our business is in the general self-help category. We facilitate programs to help people reach their goals and change behaviors accordingly to achieve what they want. The programs were written by a believer, but since they are for wide dissemination to business leaders, most references to God are left out of these (not in the author's more personal writings however). So there is a theme of, "You can do or be anything you set your mind to - you have unlimited potential," in all of these materials.

Personally, I know this is false, however I'm paid to facilitate these ideas. Many times Christians take these programs and get very good results, but so do nonbelievers, and they also get good results. Oftentimes the Christian participant realizes that as it says in Proverbs, "Many are the plans in a man's heart, yet it is the Lord's purpose that prevails," and set their goals accordingly prioritized. In other words, they realize there is an ultimate constraint by the Almighty in this universe, and real wisdom and freedom is in seeking Him and His purpose.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Sowell never frames it as Christian world view vs. non-Christian. But you can definitely see the fingerprints of a belief in God with the Constrained Vision! (and a casting-off of that constraint in the Unconstrained Vision) Personally, this causes conflict in me when I try to straddle or reconcile the two visions.

For instance, much of our business is in the general self-help category. We facilitate programs to help people reach their goals and change behaviors accordingly to achieve what they want. The programs were written by a believer, but since they are for wide dissemination to business leaders, most references to God are left out of these (not in the author's more personal writings however). So there is a theme of, "You can do or be anything you set your mind to - you have unlimited potential," in all of these materials.

Personally, I know this is false, however I'm paid to facilitate these ideas. Many times Christians take these programs and get very good results, but so do nonbelievers, and they also get good results. Oftentimes the Christian participant realizes that as it says in Proverbs, "Many are the plans in a man's heart, yet it is the Lord's purpose that prevails," and set their goals accordingly prioritized. In other words, they realize there is an ultimate constraint by the Almighty in this universe, and real wisdom and freedom is in seeking Him and His purpose.

The Al Anon handbook is written from the same perspective, not Christian per se, but based on human nature, including both God's creation and the fall of man.

I don't see the conflict with telling people, "You can do or be anything you set your mind to - you have unlimited potential." All sports coaches say the same thing. It pushes us to know our limits. Obviously the "unlimited potential" needs realistic limits, but when our minds are stuck in the mud with self-imposed restrictions, coaching like this is beneficial.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Al Anon handbook is written from the same perspective, not Christian per se, but based on human nature, including both God's creation and the fall of man.

I don't see the conflict with telling people, "You can do or be anything you set your mind to - you have unlimited potential." All sports coaches say the same thing. It pushes us to know our limits. Obviously the "unlimited potential" needs realistic limits, but when our minds are stuck in the mud with self-imposed restrictions, coaching like this is beneficial.

Sure. And I am fine that and clients pay us for that, regardless. But ultimately I know there are certainly restrictions in what we can do. The reality is, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me!" But this declaration is still constrained within the realm of God's will . . .

As I look around the room, all I see is untapped potential! You have potential! You have . . . oh boy . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Sure. And I am fine that and clients pay us for that, regardless. But ultimately I know there are certainly restrictions in what we can do. The reality is, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me!" But this declaration is still constrained within the realm of God's will . . .

As I look around the room, all I see is untapped potential! You have potential! You have . . . oh boy . . .

Do you find yourself checking out your nose frequently?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you find yourself checking out your nose frequently?

Yes I do! It's hard working with a bunch of losers!

Actually, I know everyone has "untapped potential." The process works to help people achieve what they want - and what they want, as paying customers, is up to them! (However, I also realize it's ultimately all up to God.)

[zeek]

Abortion: the only word that can make followers of Jesus vote against everything Jesus ever talked about because of one issue that Jesus never talked about.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Abortion: the only word that can make followers of Jesus vote against everything Jesus ever talked about because of one issue that Jesus never talked about.

I see that as something of a Stawman Argument on your part, but there is still some tendency to do that among Christian voters. Why? It's the taking of a human life. Do you think that's not important to our God, who created us and gave us life?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Abortion: the only word that can make followers of Jesus vote against everything Jesus ever talked about because of one issue that Jesus never talked about.

Abortion is murder. Every writer in scripture talked about that. Jesus too!

And "vote against everything Jesus ever talked about?" Huh? Examples?

Is this supposed to be an intelligent response to something?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Abortion is murder. Every writer in scripture talked about that. Jesus too!

And "vote against everything Jesus ever talked about?" Huh? Examples?

Is this supposed to be an intelligent response to something?

Got to hand it to you Ohio you know your Bible! Where does Jesus say that abortion is murder?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Got to hand it to you Ohio you know your Bible! Where does Jesus say that abortion is murder?

I might not address this as adroitly as Ohio may, but it's a simple 2 + 2 thing, right? The taking of a human life is considered what?

Ungodly liberal thinking has sought to twist this simplicity and keeps telling us over & over & over that it's not the taking of a human life (and it's a right to do so) - more like squishing an amoeba I guess . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Got to hand it to you Ohio you know your Bible! Where does Jesus say that abortion is murder?

Where does the Bible say that it is "murder" when killed with a shotgun?

Stupid word games. Murder is when your actions cause another person to die, apart from self-defense. Goodness, even animals nowadays have more rights than the unborn.

It's not that hard to understand zeek. You're a smart guy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I might not address this as adroitly as Ohio may, but it's a simple 2 + 2 thing, right? The taking of a human life is considered what?

Ungodly liberal thinking has sought to twist this simplicity and keeps telling us over & over & over that it's not the taking of a human life - more like squishing an amoeba I guess . . .

But this "amoeba" has human hands, a human face, human fingerprints, human dna, human heartbeat, human life, and a human soul created by God.

Ever study the so-called "science" presented at Roe to the SCOTUS? They totally deceived the court. Their pictures were fraudulent. Their data was deceptive. Their presentation was a total lie. Just ask Norma McCorvey, the so-called "Roe." Her story is telling. Worst laws in history of the US, worse even than the Dred Scott decision of 1857 because most slaves at least got to live, whereas the aborted unborn never got that chance.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where does the Bible say that it is "murder" when killed with a shotgun?

Stupid word games. Murder is when your actions cause another person to die, apart from self-defense. Goodness, even animals nowadays have more rights than the unborn.

It's not that hard to understand zeek. You're a smart guy.

No! no! no! I really want to know where every writer of the books of the Bible spoke out against abortion.

Bro Ohio, you made the claim. Back it up. At least give me a few examples.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

No! no! no! I really want to know where every writer of the books of the Bible spoke out against abortion.

Bro Ohio, you made the claim. Back it up. At least give me a few examples.

The sixth commandment, often repeated in the Bible.

[Sons to Glory!]

Ohio's point is it doesn't spell-out all the ways murder happens, it's just murder. One can be murdered by poisoning, by an axe, by knife, by gunfire, by strangulations, by thrusting another into the vacuum of outer space or by yanking someone out of the womb, etc. & etc.

The Bible doesn't need to say "Thou shalt not kill your unborn child;" it just needs to say, "Thou shalt not murder."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Ohio's point is it doesn't spell-out all the ways murder happens, it's just murder. One can be murdered by poisoning, by an axe, by knife, by gunfire, by strangulations, by thrusting another into the vacuum of outer space or by yanking someone out of the womb, etc. & etc.

The Bible doesn't need to say "Thou shalt not kill your unborn child;" it just needs to say, "Thou shalt not murder."

Thanks for the "amplified" version, as if it was really needed. Some here are merely straining at gnats (show me the word abortion in the Bible) while passing camels (unlimited abortion rights and infanticide for all.)

I for one gave up on expecting abortion to ever be outlawed. The Democrats merely use it to freak out their base, among other things. The SCOTUS actually view their rulings as settled law, and part of the Constitution. I understand that Planned Parenthood v. Casey 1992 rulings by SCOTUS are even more difficult to overturn than Roe v. Wade. All of the Jurists voting to uphold that decision were appointed by Republicans. What does that tell you?

Originalist constitutional judges are needed to preserve our Republic on a vast array of issues. Allowing un-elected progressive Judges with a life-time tenure just about guarantees our nations demise, since they can construct anything they wish on sinking sand. Consider our national "heroine" RBG who just passed away: she was not "canonized" while fighting for all Americans and the rule of law, rather she fought for "progressive women" and select minorities. But what about unborn women, who exceed 50% of abortions, who fights for them?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

No! no! no! I really want to know where every writer of the books of the Bible spoke out against abortion.

Bro Ohio, you made the claim. Back it up. At least give me a few examples.

And let me jump forward to the next step of our discussion, so you can be prepared. If the unborn cannot be "murdered" because they are not "persons," then you automatically justify genocide around the world. Did not Hitler declare the Jews, Gypsies, and Gays to be non-persons, and thus terminating them was not murder? Did not the SCOTUS Dred Scott Decision of 1857 determine that blacks were non-persons, and thus killing them was not murder? For the same reason we fight for blacks and for Jews, we must fight for the unborn.

We can never use our personal "choice" to justify the demise of another. What a frightening history that has been. All of our personal "rights" have limits, and must by law end when another life is threatened.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And let me jump forward to the next step of our discussion, so you can be prepared. If the unborn cannot be "murdered" because they are not "persons," then you automatically justify genocide around the world. Did not Hitler declare the Jews, Gypsies, and Gays to be non-persons, and thus terminating them was not murder? Did not the SCOTUS Dred Scott Decision of 1857 determine that blacks were non-persons, and thus killing them was not murder? For the same reason we fight for blacks and for Jews, we must fight for the unborn.

We can never use our personal "choice" to justify the demise of another. What a frightening history that has been. All of our personal "rights" have limits, and must by law end when another life is threatened.

I'll give it to you. You sure can make an outlandish claim, and then dodge weave and dance when avoiding backing up your claim ... and then making a more outlandish claim that, a woman aborting her baby is like burning 6 million Jews in ovens.

So I guess you can't find even one book in the Bible that speaks against abortion, and it was asinine and cult like thinking to make the claim.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

So I guess you can't find even one book in the Bible that speaks against abortion, and it was asinine and cult like thinking to make the claim.

No mention of abortion murders or shotgun murders in one OT book I know of . . . So how about where children are offered as sacrifices to idols in the OT?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'll give it to you. You sure can make an outlandish claim, and then dodge weave and dance when avoiding backing up your claim ... and then making a more outlandish claim that, a woman aborting her baby is like burning 6 million Jews in ovens.

So I guess you can't find even one book in the Bible that speaks against abortion, and it was asinine and cult like thinking to make the claim.

Talk about dodging, weaving, twisting, dancing, and distorting!! That's your specialty! Like you say, "yer a peach!"

We are talking about close to One Million beautiful unborn children of God slaughtered in the womb every year! The same number as the holocaust roughly every six years! Yet you say only one woman has aborted her baby. It's more like one aborted baby every 30 seconds, every hour, and every day of the year. That's real science, my friend. Math too.

Asinine and cult like thinking? Aren't those classic ad hominems?

Why don't you address my points? Why do you dodge the issues? What are you afraid of? Why are you complicit with murder? Aren't you part of the coverup?

Murder is taking the life of another. Is that too hard for you to understand? Perhaps too much cognitive dissonance going on?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are talking about close to One Million beautiful unborn children of God slaughtered in the womb every year! The same number as the holocaust roughly every six years! Yet you say only one woman has aborted her baby. It's more like one aborted baby every 30 seconds, every hour, and every day of the year.

And where's your dog in the fight? Have you produced a unwanted baby?

Still ... what book?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And where's your dog in the fight? Have you produced a unwanted baby?

Huh? So ... Let me get this straight ...

Since I was not aborted personally, I am not allowed to speak up on their behalf?

That makes as much sense as a Progressive Insurance commercial.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

And where's your dog in the fight? Have you produced a unwanted baby?

Still ... what book?

Am I a persona non grata here? (I know you and Ohio are all caught up in this back-n-forth thing among yourselves, but . . .)

Any way, I answered your question in post 6075. And then I asked you a question.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

No mention of abortion murders or shotgun murders in one OT book I know of . . . So how about where children are offered as sacrifices to idols in the OT?

Still no book ... but you make a point, at least. But it's not the same at all

Here's a verse that applies ... God prescribes bitter water to abort a baby : Numbers 5:22

Lev. 27:6 - A person is a person after birth

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Still no book ... but you make a point, at least. But it's not the same at all

Here's a verse that applies ... God prescribes bitter water to abort a baby : Numbers 5:22

Lev. 27:6 - A person is a person after birth

What a joke! Go read those verses again.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What a joke! Go read those verses again.

I read them before posting them. Of course, as usual, there's the matter of interpretation.

The bitter water story was obvious. She cheated and got pregnant. So time for an abortion.

Leviticus wasn't as clear. But it's in the Bible, as to the value of a child.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I read them before posting them. Of course, as usual, there's the matter of interpretation.

The bitter water story was obvious. She cheated and got pregnant. So time for an abortion.

Leviticus wasn't as clear. But it's in the Bible, as to the value of a child.

So when you find some twisted interpretation of scripture that suits you, you now believe the Bible?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


God has formed us in the womb, making us an altogether new person.

Jeremiah 1.5: "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart."

Galatians 1.15: "But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb."

Psalm 139:13: "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So when you find some twisted interpretation of scripture that suits you, you now believe the Bible?

Whoops. I thought I was talking to a Bible believer. My bad.

Originally Posted by Ohio

God has formed us in the womb, making us an altogether new person.

Jeremiah 1.5: "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart."

So your against abortion before conception? I've been saying that it is the males fault for unwanted babies. So why do you only want to control women's bodies, and not men's bodies? Only misogynists think that way. Are you so strong against abortion because you are a very strong misogynist? Is that why you strongly want to control women's bodies? Do you belong to The People Praise Catholic cult?

Galatians 1.15: "But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb."

So Paul claims to be more special to God than everyone else? That's a huge ego. And there's plenty of evidence that Paul was a misogynist.

Psalm 139:13: "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb."

So God can just as easily abort the inward parts with miscarriages. God does that way too often.

Seems your obsession against abortion is way stronger than God's. You must have Paul's ego, as well as his shameful misogyny.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So why do you only want to control women's bodies, and not men's bodies? Only misogynists think that way. Are you so strong against abortion because you are a very strong misogynist? Is that why you strongly want to control women's bodies? Do you belong to The People Praise Catholic cult?

Besides your continual accusations and name-calling, your misguided comments expose a vicious hatred of the most innocent and vulnerable among us -- the unborn.

No one is "controlling" women's bodies. We are protecting them. We are protecting the precious lives within them. We want every one of them to have the opportunity to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If the mother is unwilling or unable to raise the unborn child, there are plenty of loving and caring adoptive parents willing to take her place.

Your way is murder. By supporting abortion, you are complicit in premeditated murder. Repent!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Besides your continual accusations and name-calling, your misguided comments expose a vicious hatred of the most innocent and vulnerable among us -- the unborn.

If they are not born they are not among us.

Originally Posted by Ohio

No one is "controlling" women's bodies. We are protecting them.

There's lots of women that disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are protecting the precious lives within them. We want every one of them to have the opportunity to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I think that women have ultimate say in the matter. It is their bodies. Not yours. Unless you've produced the baby, it's none of your business.

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the mother is unwilling or unable to raise the unborn child, there are plenty of loving and caring adoptive parents willing to take her place.

If you feel so concerned, have you adopted the unwanted babies?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your way is murder. By supporting abortion, you are complicit in premeditated murder. Repent!

Oh knock it off with your self-righteous repent.

You seem to only hear what you think in your head. I've mentioned in the past that I'm not for abortion. I'm for the choice of the expecting mother. Just because I'm not for you to make that choice, doesn't mean I'm for abortion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

If they are not born they are not among us.

I think that women have ultimate say in the matter. It is their bodies. Not yours. Unless you've produced the baby, it's none of your business.

God our Creator has told us plainly that the unborn in the womb are wonderfully made by Him and loved by Him. God "lends" the children to their parents. From conception they are most definitely "among us" to be loved and cared for.

You cannot overrule the ways of our Creator with a few barbaric thoughts. That's just like justifying Hitler's genocide of Jews because you agreed they were not real persons, and then telling me it's none of my business because I never lived in Europe.

The unborn do not have their mother's bodies. They have their own special and unique bodies. If the unborn were their mother's bodies, then they would share the same DNA. But they don't. That alone is scientific proof that the unborn have their own bodies. You believe in science, don't you?

You do believe that taking another's life is murder, don't you?

[Ohio]

For some reason this year I got lots of Text messages from my state Democratic Apparatus thinking I am "Mark, a Democrat." So I play along with them as "Mark, a Bernie Bro." Not to deceive anyone, but to understand their thinking.

Every single concern I have mentioned about Biden is just dismissed as RWTP's (right wing talking points.) Standard answer. No rebuttal info. It's amazing just how fearful these folks are of facts, and how void they are of actual news stories and historical events. They filter out everything but the official Democratic spin. They seem to have rejected all critical thinking. A while back, Biden was bad, now Biden is good.

On the contrary, all my Republican friends are thoroughly aware of Trump's shortcomings and failures, being constantly bombarded by them. I definitely think it's better to know all the facts, and make careful decisions, than to let your mind live in some hermetically sealed cry-o-vac package, and just believe what you are told.

[Sons to Glory!]

The whole abortion thing seems to come down to these two views:

Some believe the choice of the mother takes all priority and is an utmost right;

Some believe the life of the child takes all priority and is an utmost right.

And apparently the twain shall never meet. But either you chose one or the other . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

God our Creator has told us plainly that the unborn in the womb are wonderfully made by Him and loved by Him. God "lends" the children to their parents. From conception they are most definitely "among us" to be loved and cared for.

You cannot overrule the ways of our Creator with a few barbaric thoughts. That's just like justifying Hitler's genocide of Jews because you agreed they were not real persons, and then telling me it's none of my business because I never lived in Europe.

The unborn do not have their mother's bodies. They have their own special and unique bodies. If the unborn were their mother's bodies, then they would share the same DNA. But they don't. That alone is scientific proof that the unborn have their own bodies. You believe in science, don't you?

You do believe that taking another's life is murder, don't you?

There is no hope of this ever going anywhere. Either adopt unwanted babies or shut up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

There is no hope of this ever going anywhere. Either adopt unwanted babies or shut up.

I see you are not the moderator any more.

Does that allow you to be nasty to others for having a different viewpoint?

Why are you so loving and tolerant to the LGBTQWERTY, agnostic, atheistic community, but so intolerant and nasty at times to the evangelical Christian community?

Your biased attitudes are so readily obvious. Or am I the outlier here?

[Ohio]

What's wrong with this narrative?

[Ohio]

Prior to the debate in Cleveland in a hot mic moment ...

[Ohio]

Our next president ?

[TLFisher]

One month to go.....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

One month to go.....

Many are predicting that the election results will never be finalized.

2020 may make the "hanging chads" of 2000 look like nothing at all.

[Sons to Glory!]

This weekend on a stretch of road, we saw a series of perhaps a dozen small signs along the side. The messages included things like:

Save the Planet
Black Lives Matter
Healthcare for All
Strong Working Class
Green Initiatives
Integrity & Truth
Happiness & Utopia*
And lastly: Biden & Harris

*Okay, may have made this one up, but something like it . . .

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This weekend on a stretch of road, we saw a series of perhaps a dozen small signs along the side. The messages included things like:

Save the Planet
Black Lives Matter
Healthcare for All
Strong Working Class
Green Initiatives
Integrity & Truth
Happiness & Utopia*
And lastly: Biden & Harris

*Okay, may have made this one up, but something like it . . .

There's a certain billboard along I-5 in Chehallis, wa. I wonder what is says. "Imagine an iconic picture of Uncle Sam with a right-leaning message."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many are predicting that the election results will never be finalized.

Probably why the orange badman wants ACB confirmed in 2020. As a counter to the left-leaning playbook.
Still doesn't the electoral college meet December 14 to cast their official votes?

[Sons to Glory!]

So I'm sitting here looking at my mail-in ballot. I got all the boxes checked except the one for president. The question is: Do I vote for Trump or against what all Biden and the liberals stand for these days?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So I'm sitting here looking at my mail-in ballot. I got all the boxes checked except the one for president. The question is: Do I vote for Trump or against what all Biden and the liberals stand for these days?

Have you seen what open borders did to destroy Tucson?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you seen what open borders did to destroy Tucson?

We go to Tucson from time to time, but I can't say I've seen it firsthand. Personally, I'm all for having a well-controlled border as it only makes too much common sense. It's like a real "duh" to me.

Does that make me a racist?

So my comment about who to vote for, in case you missed it, as that irregardless (my grandfather's word) it's a vote for Trump. Even my wife, who really doesn't like Trump much at all as a person, said she is frightened more by the intense socialism she sees that the democrats will bring!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Even my wife, who really doesn't like Trump much at all as a person, said she is frightened more by the intense socialism she sees that the democrats will bring!

I view Trump like a soldier in a war. He stinks, he needs a shower, he swears, he needs some manners, he's impatient, he yells at people, he has a big mouth, he has guns, at times he's frightening to kids, and ... at times he even asks God for help.

But he loves our country, he's protecting us, he'a patriot, he didn't have to volunteer for this army, but he did. He's fighting so we can be safe, have jobs, and be free to live our lives.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I view Trump like a soldier in a war. He stinks, he needs a shower, he swears, he needs some manners, he's impatient, he yells at people, he has a big mouth, he has guns, at times he's frightening to kids, and ... at times he even asks God for help.

But he loves our country, he's protecting us, he'a patriot, he didn't have to volunteer for this army, but he did. He's fighting so we can be safe, have jobs, and be free to live our lives.

Ya know, that's an interesting analogy! I liken him sometimes to Churchill, who was gruff, liked to drink and smoke cigars, said many things that weren't nice, polite or politically correct, etc. Like Churchill, he may be voted out after fighting the war.

I voted for Trump the first time because he was an outsider, and I was fed-up with politicians (from both sides) and business as usual from the career politicians.

My dad was amazed that friends of his proclaimed loudly to him that "Trump has done nothing." And that is right - he has done nothing to further the liberal agenda. These friends also think he is the antichrist (though they aren't religious themselves).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My dad was amazed that friends of his proclaimed loudly to him that "Trump has done nothing." And that is right - he has done nothing to further the liberal agenda. These friends also think he is the antichrist (though they aren't religious themselves).

I agree with your dad, that watching the news* these days, hearing nothing at all good about Trump, one would tend to believe such a statement made by his friends.

But if "Trump has done nothing," then neither can he be guilty of initiating nuclear war, colluding with the Russians, Ukrainian Quid Pro Quo, anti-semitism, feminism, racism, xenophobic, homophobic, and white supremacy crimes.

Can't have it both ways.


*(i.e. e.g. the big media 7 of CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, WaPo, NYT)

[Ohio]

Can someone help me? I'm trying to figure this one out.

[Sons to Glory!]

Headline says 77% fear violence from the election. Our friends, neighbors and relatives are expressing fear, regardless of whether they lean left or right, and this is affecting their behaviors (hunkering down at home, etc.).

I just declare that He's got this! Regardless of the election turnout, I am at peace, because "the battle is the Lord's." He knows the long game and knows what is needed for His return. He is not slack concerning His promises, but desiring that all come to Him to be saved. Therefore, we must wait patiently to see the salvation of our loving God!

God is the God of calamity (Isa 45:7), but not the God of confusion (1 Cor 14:33), therefore we look away to Jesus!

[Sons to Glory!]

At 11:00 AM Nov. 4th we are awaiting the counts to see who the Electoral College will choose . . .

I was listening to Steve Gregg, a national Christian radio person yesterday, who was talking with different ones calling in about the election. One caller was going on how she couldn't vote for Trump because he was so abrasive, etc. Steve told her voting for president was akin to hiring a CEO to run a large organization. The person may have this or that going for or against them in their personality, but the bottom-line was whether they could be trusted to run the organization in a way that would cause it to prosper, and not to run it into the ground. Steve believed the Democrats will take the country hard into socialism, and therefore run it into the ground, whereas Trump would not. (Steve also big on pro-life . . .)

This got me to thinking (oh no!). Regardless who we vote for, we are really voting Adam into office. Adam will, and surely is, running this whole thing (the country & world) into the ground. I think it's just perhaps trying to figure out who might do this a little more slowly . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

At 11:00 AM Nov. 4th we are awaiting the counts to see who the Electoral College will choose . . .

When they stopped counting and sent everybody home last night, Trump was leading.

This morning they found just enough Biden votes to win WI, MI, NC, and PA.

I have never seen the vote counting in big cities lag behind rural precincts. How did this happen?

[Sons to Glory!]

So here we are 4 days past election day, waiting . . . humans don't like to wait . . . we have little in the way of inherent patience I think. (and everyone is spreading fear, telling us what dastardly might happen if the other side wins)

So let me say, if Biden/Harris win - PRAISE THE LORD!!! If Trump/Pense win - PRAISE THE LORD!!!

In other words, in everything rejoice. Why? HE'S GOT THIS! The "King of Kings & Lord of Lords" isn't just a title - it's who He is!

No matter what happens in the day-to-day affairs of this life, I've read the end of the book and guess what? GOD WINS & WE THEREFORE WIN!!!

It's like sheep watching a master playing a big chess game. They have no idea what is going on. Therefore we must trust our wise, Master Shephard - HE'S GOT THIS! Like sheep, we're lucky if we see one, or maybe two moves ahead in this thing (if He has gifted us with such wisdom).

I think I'd like a T-shirt with some sheep standing around watching a chess board, and underneath the caption would say, "HE'S GOT THIS!"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

if Biden/Harris win - PRAISE THE LORD!!!

if Biden/Harris win - PRAISE THE LORD!!!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

if Biden/Harris win - PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Amen! Baaaah! Baaah! (said the dumb sheep)

[Sons to Glory!]

Well, IMHO I must say that Kamala is the very best looking VP (elect - tentatively) we've ever had!

Some friends of ours said they figure it will be about six months before she assumes the POTUS position, through whatever means. Maybe we should start a poll - my WAG guess it'll be closer to a year if/when that happens.

But regardless if this happens or not - PRAISE THE LORD . . . HE'S GOT THIS!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

There is no hope of this ever going anywhere. Either adopt unwanted babies or shut up.

Having read your posts for a few years now, it takes hellish statements from you to make my jaw drop. But that's exactly what your posts on abortion have done. I'm speechless.

Luke 1 speaks of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit even before he was born:

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

Strange thing to say of a non-person clump of cells.

Jeremiah 20 speaks of being "killed in the womb"

Jeremiah 20:17
For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever.

Yes, if you are in the womb, it is still being "killed". It is still murder.

I'm loathe to spend any time speaking of God or the Bible to you after reading your spitting on both in the LGBTQ thread, but this post is for anyone else reading.

Yes, it is murder before the point of birth.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Having read your posts for a few years now, it takes hellish statements from you to make my jaw drop. But that's exactly what your posts on abortion have done. I'm speechless.

Luke 1 speaks of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit even before he was born:

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

Strange thing to say of a non-person clump of cells.

Jeremiah 20 speaks of being "killed in the womb"

Jeremiah 20:17
For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever.

Yes, if you are in the womb, it is still being "killed". It is still murder.

I'm loathe to spend any time speaking of God or the Bible to you after reading your spitting on both in the LGBTQ thread, but this post is for anyone else reading.

Yes, it is murder before the point of birth.

How many unwanted babies have you adopted?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

How many unwanted babies have you adopted?

She is now a medical officer in the military with her own family.

Definitely not "unwanted."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

She is now a medical officer in the military with her own family.

Definitely not "unwanted."

Great. You've done your part. Now all you have to do is, stop using the Bible to control women's bodies.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great. You've done your part. Now all you have to do is, stop using the Bible to control women's bodies.

Does a woman, in God's eyes, have a right to kill herself?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Does a woman, in God's eyes, have a right to kill herself?

No but the analogy is incorrect on so many levels. Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her. The baby comes out of the woman’s body. The baby before conception is part of the woman’s body. The baby may be born out of wedlock (raped by a man). This unwanted baby will have a hard life in the foster care system, more prone to crime etc. Those with congenital diseases will suffer more than if aborted. Best is to measure amount of suffering if the baby is born and if the baby werent born. A huge family with many babies with not enough resources to take care of them- higher rates of poverty, mental health illness, stress on family and parents, divorce rate goes up, child neglect and abuse goes up due to stress of having to take care of so many children, alcoholism, drug abuse goes up. Mentally retarded babies grow up being bullied and in criminal justice system more times than healthy babies.

My aunt made the right decision to abort a baby with down syndrome. That would have caused low quality of life for both the baby and the family. My wife’s parents did the opposite. They kept her deaf and mute sister. She is living a lower quality of life and made my wife’s mom so stressful she passed away early. on top of that, her parents had to escape extreme bullying and life threatening situations due to people in Saudi Arabia’s attitudes towards the disabled, which led my wive’s family to illegally enter the United States for a better life for that sister. They had a new struggle being undocumented- low wages with managers taking advantage of them, low level of health care, sister had to go to porn industry to make ends meet.

If the man wants to decide what to do with the baby, they should stop “accidently” making women pregnant if they dont have the financial and mental health resources or healthy emotional capacity to take care of the baby.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great. You've done your part. Now all you have to do is, stop using the Bible to control women's bodies.

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body. Is this too hard to understand? We can protect the unborn without controlling any woman.

The unborn child has its own body, its own arms and legs, its own eyes and ears, its own heart beat, its own fingerprints, its own DNA, its own soul, its own personality. It's body is completely separate from the mother's body.

Why don't you provide "women's rights" to these unborn female children? Isn't abortion "sexist" by killing girls, and "racist" by killing unborn minorities? Didn't Sanger the founder of Planned Parenthood intend to use abortion to eliminate all African Americans? And what gives you the right to tell me to stop using the Bible? To stop trying to protect the most vulnerable and innocent of all?

Trapped said your comments were "hellish." Your running anti-Christian commentary has become quite sardonic towards what was your own former life in Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

No but the analogy is incorrect on so many levels. Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her. The baby comes out of the woman’s body. The baby before conception is part of the woman’s body. The baby may be born out of wedlock (raped by a man). This unwanted baby will have a hard life in the foster care system, more prone to crime etc. Those with congenital diseases will suffer more than if aborted. Best is to measure amount of suffering if the baby is born and if the baby werent born. A huge family with many babies with not enough resources to take care of them- higher rates of poverty, mental health illness, stress on family and parents, divorce rate goes up, child neglect and abuse goes up due to stress of having to take care of so many children, alcoholism, drug abuse goes up. Mentally retarded babies grow up being bullied and in criminal justice system more times than healthy babies.

My aunt made the right decision to abort a baby with down syndrome. That would have caused low quality of life for both the baby and the family. My wife’s parents did the opposite. They kept her deaf and mute sister. She is living a lower quality of life and made my wife’s mom so stressful she passed away early. on top of that, her parents had to escape extreme bullying and life threatening situations due to people in Saudi Arabia’s attitudes towards the disabled, which led my wive’s family to illegally enter the United States for a better life for that sister. They had a new struggle being undocumented- low wages with managers taking advantage of them, low level of health care, sister had to go to porn industry to make ends meet.

If the man wants to decide what to do with the baby, they should stop “accidently” making women pregnant if they dont have the financial and mental health resources or healthy emotional capacity to take care of the baby.

Yes, but . . . see Ohio's last post.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body. Is this too hard to understand? We can protect the unborn without controlling any woman.

The unborn child has its own body, its own arms and legs, its own eyes and ears, its own heart beat, its own fingerprints, its own DNA, its own soul, its own personality. It's body is completely separate from the mother's body.

Why don't you provide "women's rights" to these unborn female children? Isn't abortion "sexist" by killing girls, and "racist" by killing unborn minorities? Didn't Sanger the founder of Planned Parenthood intend to use abortion to eliminate all African Americans? And what gives you the right to tell me to stop using the Bible? To stop trying to protect the most vulnerable and innocent of all?

Trapped said your comments were "hellish." Your running anti-Christian commentary has become quite sardonic towards what was your own former life in Christ.

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

Personality is also evident at or immediately after birth. Any parent can testify that "he/she came out [insert personality trait here]." After all, we're talking about a human being here.

A human being dependent upon another human being (i.e. baby siphoning off nutrients) doesn't mean in any way that it's not a separate human being. Just because there is a dependency or connection doesn't mean it's not a person with its own life. You know that.

The rape scenario is a specific percentage of the preceding events to abortion. It doesn't deal with many other scenarios. And while I don't think anyone here discounts the horror, pain, suffering, and trauma that comes from something as evil as rape, the logic being thrown around here is "I was raped, therefore I get to murder someone".

Doesn't work.

We should be looking at providing the support, care, counseling, belonging, and safety that a rape victim needs, rather than adding to the evil by capping the rape off with a murder.

If we say "Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her" then we are deluding even ourselves. ALL laws determine what we can do with our body. The speed limit laws control how far I can press my foot down on an accelerator. The crosswalk lights determine if I walk or wait. The laws against murder determine whether or not I can pull the trigger of a weapon pointed at a person. We are not free to do whatever we want with our bodies no matter what. There are always boundaries.

Unsafe sex, sex outside of a stable marriage, premature sex, etc.....doesn't give anyone the right to murder the result of those mistaken actions. "You might be an inconvenience" or "you might have a hard life" or "you might have physical or mental difficulties" doesn't justify "I get to murder you". That is the exact same slide Hitler jumped down. Anyone who doesn't "cut it" dies.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby’s body is not completely separate from the mother’s body in that it sucks up all the mother’s nutrients and is like a parasite living inside the mother’s womb with constant flow of nutrients from the umbilical cord, more like semi symbiotic relationship. Personality is shaped after borth by enviornmental factors.
I agree with you that the baby is innocent. If we had more education on how heterosexuals make their decisions on whether to have a baby or not, we wouldnt be dealing with the need to abort. Unless you’re a woman Ohio, you will truly never understand being nine months pregnant with all the pain and suffering that comes with child reading AND emotional truama if the baby was from incest/rape, etc. and the postpartum depression that can result in a mother not caring for the baby, leading the baby to have more mental health issues and attachment issues down the line. If you dont know how period cramps work, then dont have any say in how you can ise the bible to justify making women suffer because they’ve suffered enough at the hands of a patriarchical machochistic society.

It is the height of arrogance to tell someone that they have no right to protect innocents just because they are men. If you won't listen to men about abortion, then you definitely don't listen to women either about abortion.

Do you have any idea what women go thru who have had an abortion? The lifelong guilt, remorse, and psychological trauma of killing that which was once life. Within them. All because they were told it was "inconvenient." Post-partum depression is nothing compared to the guilt some endure.

One of the kindest, most loving Moms I know was the result of a rape. Her rapist father was a black man. Her single mother then made an heroic choice for life. Today she is a doting grandmother who never once regretted her decision. This is what a loving God and Father can do!

Once a society decides to terminate "undesirable" life, that society declines. The decision to terminate other undesirables becomes that much easier. I should think that you would understand this, and change your perspective. Many countries view LGBT as "undesirable."

I don't think you understand what a "patriarchical machochistic society" looks like. Perhaps you should visit some Muslam country. Most have zero tolerance for gays. The same goes with socialist and communist countries. Go live in China and find out what the gay "social scorecard" is. Gays sometimes are murdered as a public example, and sometimes they just disappear. For you to consider the USA to be a "patriarchical machochistic society," is frankly just to believe pure propaganda, far far worse than any LC "Kool-Aid."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The unborn child, more than half of them females, are not part of the mother's body.

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

[Sons to Glory!]

Thank you Ohio & Trapped - you are very good (gifted) at these kinds of exchanges regarding abortion fallacies! (much better than I am)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

If the man wants to decide what to do with the baby, they should stop “accidently” making women pregnant if they dont have the financial and mental health resources or healthy emotional capacity to take care of the baby.

Oh no. Men want laws controlling women, but no thought to supporting legislation controlling men's bodies ; as in making it against the law for a man to make an unwanted baby. Prolife men just don't want to keep it in their pants.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh no. Men want laws controlling women, but no thought to supporting legislation controlling men's bodies ; as in making it against the law for a man to make an unwanted baby. Prolife men just don't want to keep it in their pants.

Both men and women, young and old, just want to protect innocent life!

Who says the unborn is "unwanted?" Did you ever ask the child if he or she wanted to be born? Did you ever talk to adoptive parents waiting for years to have a child to love? Who are you to play God and decide who is wanted, who is unwanted, who gets to live, and who has to die? What if one day the Progressives decide that you are no longer wanted? Perhaps then for the first time you will view us "pro-life conservatives" as your friends.

And there are endless laws "supporting legislation controlling men's bodies." We have paternity tests, child support laws, rape laws, protection from abuse laws, etc. Many, including some women, are convinced the deck is now stacked against men. Ever read stories about how women lure wealthy men into bed to hit the "jackpot" when it comes to child support? Didn't that just happen to Hunter Biden? Where is Hunter anyways?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's ignorance. Don't tell the women that. It happens in the woman's body, from the ovum onward. It's entirely the woman's body.

Yes, within the woman's body. No, not her body.

And I don't have to tell women that. They know!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, within the woman's body. No, not her body.

And I don't have to tell women that. They know!

It is true that 2000 years ago they thought that women were just incubators.

"Two and a half thousand years ago Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, noted that conception followed the ejaculation of semen into women. ... There the argument rested for two millennia, during which educated European men justified the oppression of women on the grounds that they were merely incubators."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...ncubators.html

[Sons to Glory!]

I think I'm about done with the Alternative world of things here . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think I'm about done with the Alternative world of things here . . .

You'll be missed ....

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, within the woman's body. No, not her body.

And I don't have to tell women that. They know!

The baby is made from the mother’s body. Eve came from Adam, Adam didnt have a say in how his rib was stolen. Typical Christians.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The baby is made from the mother’s body. Eve came from Adam, Adam didnt have a say in how his rib was stolen. Typical Christians.

Sounds like foolish spiritual gobbledygook.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like foolish spiritual gobbledygook.

It’s biology; where do you think the baby’s cells multiplied from? Pregnancy has a big toll on a wan’s body. If a pregant woman’s life is endangered, and one could be saved, would you save the innocent baby or the woman’s life?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Once a society decides to terminate "undesirable" life, that society declines. The decision to terminate other undesirables becomes that much easier. I should think that you would understand this, and change your perspective. Many countries view LGBT as "undesirable."

I don't think you understand what a "patriarchical machochistic society" looks like. Perhaps you should visit some Muslam country. Most have zero tolerance for gays. The same goes with socialist and communist countries. Go live in China and find out what the gay "social scorecard" is. Gays sometimes are murdered as a public example, and sometimes they just disappear. For you to consider the USA to be a "patriarchical machochistic society," is frankly just to believe pure propaganda, far far worse than any LC "Kool-Aid."

Look, I’m not advocating entirely for abortion. This needs to be looked on case by case. The moral thing is to minimize suffering for all parties, the kid, and the mother, and the family’s economical resources. Rape/incest also has an everlasting effect on a woman’s entire life. The kid grows up being ostracized, treated differently by the mother and her family. The baby daddy gets to run away from all the responsibility and leave the woman with the moral responsibility of raising the kid. Every time, the mother looks at the kid, she gets retraumatized by the event.

You automatically love to change the topic of discussion to LGBTQ whenever I’m around huh? Last time we were talking about crimes against transgendered people, you were like “all lives matter”, now you are pro-LGBTQ. I love how you’re maturing. I’ve lived in China btw. So lucky I was not killed or I wouldnt be having this discussion with you

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Unsafe sex, sex outside of a stable marriage, premature sex, etc.....doesn't give anyone the right to murder the result of those mistaken actions. "You might be an inconvenience" or "you might have a hard life" or "you might have physical or mental difficulties" doesn't justify "I get to murder you". That is the exact same slide Hitler jumped down. Anyone who doesn't "cut it" dies.

This has to be taken like euthanization. If someone was suffering from cancer, wouldnt it be moral for that person to have the choice for legalized euthanization? The difference between Hitler’s murders and abortion is that Hitler caused widespread suffering. Abortion oftentimes mitigates suffering. We make the moral choice for the unborn child or innocent when we look at life’s circumstances and see if there are more pros and cons for the kid. (I’m up for adoption but the fact is most kids put up for adoption end up in foster care and group homes which are not the best, because I’ve worked in several. Unless the country has fixed its adoption and foster care system, I dont see why abortion cant be a secondary choice.)
Therefore the slippery slope in which abortion will lead to a houlocaust is not a neat point A to point B. Just like how legalizing same sex marriage does not lead to justification for pedophilia and other sexual immoralities that do not involve consent.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Personality is also evident at or immediately after birth. Any parent can testify that "he/she came out [insert personality trait here]." After all, we're talking about a human being here.

A human being dependent upon another human being (i.e. baby siphoning off nutrients) doesn't mean in any way that it's not a separate human being. Just because there is a dependency or connection doesn't mean it's not a person with its own life. You know that.

The rape scenario is a specific percentage of the preceding events to abortion. It doesn't deal with many other scenarios. And while I don't think anyone here discounts the horror, pain, suffering, and trauma that comes from something as evil as rape, the logic being thrown around here is "I was raped, therefore I get to murder someone".

Doesn't work.

We should be looking at providing the support, care, counseling, belonging, and safety that a rape victim needs, rather than adding to the evil by capping the rape off with a murder.

If we say "Other’s cant control what a woman does with her body. Others cant decide for her" then we are deluding even ourselves. ALL laws determine what we can do with our body. The speed limit laws control how far I can press my foot down on an accelerator. The crosswalk lights determine if I walk or wait. The laws against murder determine whether or not I can pull the trigger of a weapon pointed at a person. We are not free to do whatever we want with our bodies no matter what. There are always boundaries.

Unsafe sex, sex outside of a stable marriage, premature sex, etc.....doesn't give anyone the right to murder the result of those mistaken actions. "You might be an inconvenience" or "you might have a hard life" or "you might have physical or mental difficulties" doesn't justify "I get to murder you". That is the exact same slide Hitler jumped down. Anyone who doesn't "cut it" dies.

After reading this post it makes me wonder if you've ever had kids. Also, I don't think you've ever had to deal with women who wanted to have an abortion. Not to mention that some of what you say is nonsense.

I've had 3 kids, and had to bear much pressure on 2 of the mothers that wanted to abort. I can tell you without reservation that a woman can be very stubborn if they put their mind to it.

And y'all all can keep harping on it, and bring women's reproductive rights under government control, throwing women behind bars, but with abortion pills now available, and how to make them for underground use, the cat is already and clearly way out of the bag. Good luck with that. Plus, the court has made abortion legal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

It’s biology; where do you think the baby’s cells multiplied from? Pregnancy has a big toll on a wan’s body. If a pregant woman’s life is endangered, and one could be saved, would you save the innocent baby or the woman’s life?

You fabricate a hypothetical situation to justify millions of "convenience" murders? Pretty heartless.

According to your "biology," an unborn life has the same beginning and the same result as what you daily flush down the toilet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Look, I’m not advocating entirely for abortion. This needs to be looked on case by case. The moral thing is to minimize suffering for all parties, the kid, and the mother, and the family’s economical resources. Rape/incest also has an everlasting effect on a woman’s entire life. The kid grows up being ostracized, treated differently by the mother and her family. The baby daddy gets to run away from all the responsibility and leave the woman with the moral responsibility of raising the kid. Every time, the mother looks at the kid, she gets retraumatized by the event.

You automatically love to change the topic of discussion to LGBTQ whenever I’m around huh? Last time we were talking about crimes against transgendered people, you were like “all lives matter”, now you are pro-LGBTQ. I love how you’re maturing. I’ve lived in China btw. So lucky I was not killed or I wouldnt be having this discussion with you

It's called perspective. Try it sometime.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You fabricate a hypothetical situation to justify millions of "convenience" murders? Pretty heartless.

According to your "biology," an unborn life has the same beginning and the same result as what you daily flush down the toilet.

I once fished one out of the toilet. Sometimes God performs an abortion. It's called a miscarriage. Take it up with him.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

After reading this post it makes me wonder if you've ever had kids. Also, I don't think you've ever had to deal with women who wanted to have an abortion. Not to mention that some of what you say is nonsense.

I've had 3 kids, and had to bear much pressure on 2 of the mothers that wanted to abort. I can tell you without reservation that a woman can be very stubborn if they put their mind to it.

And y'all all can keep harping on it, and bring women's reproductive rights under government control, throwing women behind bars, but with abortion pills now available, and how to make them for underground use, the cat is already and clearly way out of the bag. Good luck with that. Plus, the court has made abortion legal.

Care to elaborate with reasoned and logical counter-arguments where my "nonsense" was?

Your reasoning seems to be "my wife was stubborn, therefore all women should be able to kill babies". As usual, I'm writing for the readers to see the rationale behind both sides.

The court making something legal doesn't make it right or not a sin. Doesn't mean we can't still talk about it here.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

I once fished one out of the toilet. Sometimes God performs an abortion. It's called a miscarriage. Take it up with him.

Do you disagree that God is the unique one in the universe who has the right to take the life He created? When humans do it, it's murder, since that other person's life is not ours to take. God is the author of life and thus has the right to end it.

We discussed this exact thing on the LGBTQ thread. Or did this go in one ear and out the other too?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Care to elaborate with reasoned and logical counter-arguments where my "nonsense" was? As usual, I'm writing for the readers to see the rational behind both sides.

The court making something legal doesn't make it right or not a sin.

This hits at the core of the matter of abortion. As long as we can get it legalized, whether thru legislation or judicial activism, then it is all OK. But it's not.

Unfortunately, the healthy conscience of man/woman is connected to the law of God. He put "eternity in our heart," which aligns our moral compass with the nature of God. That's why so many girls suffer long term guilt after an abortion, but have you noticed that is a subject none are willing to respond to? It is only an orchestrated collection of calloused hearts, fueled by atheism, self-love, and drugs, that can reduce the murder of an unborn infant in the womb to an "inconvenience."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Care to elaborate with reasoned and logical counter-arguments where my "nonsense" was?

I really didn't want to get into it all.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Your reasoning seems to be "my wife was stubborn, therefore all women should be able to kill babies".

A baby is a baby because it's born. That's when it has rights equal to its mom, and all the rest of us. Before that, it's the mom to be that has rights.

Originally Posted by Trapped

The court making something legal doesn't make it right or not a sin.

Maybe you didn't catch it, and maybe I've failed to point out that I'm against abortion. I just think that the decision is up to the adult involved, who clearly, legally, has rights, that shouldn't be infringed. If it's sin, then that's between God and the one that aborts. Like you've pointed out, it's God's life. And He may not care as much as you. Have you ever considered that you might be jumping the gun on God?

And sorry for not elaborating on my nonsense statement. Maybe it will come up again.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

A baby is a baby because it's born. That's when it has rights equal to its mom, and all the rest of us. Before that, it's the mom to be that has rights.

Since when does the rights of one deny the rights of another?

But you guys can't even get your own story straight. Before it was posted that as long as the unborn child is a "parasite" off the mother, drawing all subsistence from the mom, then it has no "rights." So the child can be killed up until it is weaned? Sounds a lot like VA Gov "Black Face" Northam.

What if we can get the unborn child on life support within the womb, then can the child have "rights?"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since when does the rights of one deny the rights of another?

But you guys can't even get your own story straight. Before it was posted that as long as the unborn child is a "parasite" off the mother, drawing all subsistence from the mom, then it has no "rights." So the child can be killed up until it is weaned? Sounds a lot like VA Gov "Black Face" Northam.

What if we can get the unborn child on life support within the womb, then can the child have "rights?"

Ask the courts.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since when does the rights of one deny the rights of another?"

My being above age 21 prevents my younger sister age 20 from drinking legally. just kidding..

Roe vs Wade does have some conditions though, like not aborting in third trimester or was that a previous law? Because it’s easier to get rid of a mass of cells than a full blown fetus.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Because it’s easier to get rid of a mass of cells than a full blown fetus.

From what I've heard out here those cells are a full blown baby. If only they could see what they are calling a baby.

How many fourteen and nine year olds will you have to sacrifice for a few newborns? Why make a big fuss about children who are never born when you treat the ones who have been so poorly? Like children locked in cages, separated from their families by Trump Administration and children trying to escape from gangs or dying in Mexico. Foster youth homes who have no say and no love under Social Services.

Also, forcing women to carry a rapist’s child is cruel. Forcing women to carry to term despite the knowledge they will suffer serious health complications (such as genetic disorders or rare diseases) is cruel.

True Christians are in a minority. Not many people genuinely follow God’s word.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Love

How many fourteen and nine year olds will you have to sacrifice for a few newborns? Why make a big fuss about children who are never born when you treat the ones who have been so poorly? Like children locked in cages, separated from their families by Trump Administration and children trying to escape from gangs or dying in Mexico. Foster youth homes who have no say and no love under Social Services.

Also, forcing women to carry a rapist’s child is cruel. Forcing women to carry to term despite the knowledge they will suffer serious health complications (such as genetic disorders or rare diseases) is cruel.

Where do you get your info? You have been so deceived. It was the Obama Admin that erected those cages in order to protect children in custody at the border. That first (and famous) picture you saw was taken in 2014. Do investigate your facts before you post.

Your "justification" for abortion could also be summarized by the following letter:

Dear Love, it's a jungle out there. People die all the time. You could be struck by a drunk driver, or you could be a victim of random violence. There are thousands of cancers and diseases out there which could make the rest of your life so painful and miserable. You wouldn't want that to happen, would you? Or you could catch the Covid stage 3. So horrible.

So let me recommend that you end things right away. Why wait another day? Why should your life continue with so many dangers out there ready to get you? Please make the right "choice." By ending your own life soon, you might even be saving another. How dare you "inconvenience" others by being forced to care for you? You wouldn't want that would you? Wouldn't the world be a better place with more brave souls like you making the right "choice" today?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where do you get your info? You have been so deceived. It was the Obama Admin that erected those cages in order to protect children in custody at the border. That first (and famous) picture you saw was taken in 2014. Do investigate your facts before you post.

Your "justification" for abortion could also be summarized by the following letter:

Dear Love, it's a jungle out there. People die all the time. You could be struck by a drunk driver, or you could be a victim of random violence. There are thousands of cancers and diseases out there which could make the rest of your life so painful and miserable. You wouldn't want that to happen, would you? Or you could catch the Covid stage 3. So horrible.

So let me recommend that you end things right away. Why wait another day? Why should your life continue with so many dangers out there ready to get you? Please make the right "choice." By ending your own life soon, you might even be saving another. How dare you "inconvenience" others by being forced to care for you? You wouldn't want that would you? Wouldn't the world be a better place with more brave souls like you making the right "choice" today?

So moronic it's funny.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So moronic it's funny.

Nothing moronic about the abortion slaughter of the innocent unborn everyday.

It's only funny when we apply the same standards to its proponents.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where do you get your info? You have been so deceived. It was the Obama Admin that erected those cages in order to protect children in custody at the border. That first (and famous) picture you saw was taken in 2014. Do investigate your facts before you post.

Your "justification" for abortion could also be summarized by the following letter:

Dear Love, it's a jungle out there. People die all the time. You could be struck by a drunk driver, or you could be a victim of random violence. There are thousands of cancers and diseases out there which could make the rest of your life so painful and miserable. You wouldn't want that to happen, would you? Or you could catch the Covid stage 3. So horrible.

So let me recommend that you end things right away. Why wait another day? Why should your life continue with so many dangers out there ready to get you? Please make the right "choice." By ending your own life soon, you might even be saving another. How dare you "inconvenience" others by being forced to care for you? You wouldn't want that would you? Wouldn't the world be a better place with more brave souls like you making the right "choice" today?

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...obama-adminis/

Lmao. Yes, Obama Administration did have those cages, but they weren’t in danger and they weren’t separated from families. If you look up official documents of Trump’s executive orders in Federal Register, it is already clear that he separated them. Not Obama Administration.

You’re so misinformed. You watch too much Fox News = Fake News

Sorry, but you’re just so ignorant. Boohoo, mama didn’t give you enough love? You’re just a bitter old man with not much life force left to go. Only in too deep with a book club written by men.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Love

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...obama-adminis/

Lmao. Yes, Obama Administration did have those cages, but they weren’t in danger and they weren’t separated from families. If you look up official documents of Trump’s executive orders in Federal Register, it is already clear that he separated them. Not Obama Administration.

You’re so misinformed. You watch too much Fox News = Fake News

Sorry, but you’re just so ignorant. Boohoo, mama didn’t give you enough love? You’re just a bitter old man with not much life force left to go. Only in too deep with a book club written by men.

Thank God your fact checkers and sources of truth are not written by men.

[SerenityLives]

I have a general question for the men on this thread who support anti-abortion: What are your views concerning the soul- does it begin at the conception of the sperm and the egg, or once the baby is born, or somewhere in between? Now I have heard stories of people who have provided testimonials they swear they were consciously aware or have a distant memory of being in the “dark” and then having some memories of seeing a doctor’s face when they were born. I’m just wondering if your perceptions of the soul being there in the mass conglomeration of cells has anything to do with how your views on terminating a pregnancy. Personally, I feel I am more middle ground- if the fetus is in the first trimester, I dont see anything morally wrong with a woman deciding it is better for the baby if she is bringing it into a cruel environment, but at third trimester, thats when it gets tricky. And it is very wrong personally for abortion clinics to abort a fetus at full term or if the baby comes out crying, to let it die and suffer. Like that is murder. But it’s not murder if in a petri dish, for example IVF, for the glob of cells to be terminated.

https://youtu.be/yRA0KMCEP2o. here is a video on pro life vs pro choice. Both sides are civil and make good arguments, showing that abortion is not so much a black and white issue- personal experience has a lot to do with how one views the issue. Note: many of the people in the video are women, so its nice to have some female perspectives on the issue since they are the ones carrying the baby most of the time (unless you are trans)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I have a general question for the men on this thread who support anti-abortion: What are your views concerning the soul- does it begin at the conception of the sperm and the egg, or once the baby is born, or somewhere in between?

I believe the soul begins at conception. I don't view conception as merely biological, but also the moment that God breathes life, a soul into the unborn child. (Gen 2.7)

As far as legislation goes, I would like to see the child's heartbeat used as a marker for legality, with abortion illegal beyond that point. The heart beat of the unborn child is clearly and easily measurable.

[UntoHim]

Hey "Love".

If you're going to post further, you will have to register for membership. If, by chance, you are already registered, then I'm going to have ask you to sign in and post under your registered name. Thanks.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Love

Sorry, but you’re just so ignorant. Boohoo, mama didn’t give you enough love? You’re just a bitter old man with not much life force left to go. Only in too deep with a book club written by men.

What's in us colors what we see. It seems you know bitterness. You might ask yourself why that is and if there's a harmful root of bitterness that needs dealt with inside you . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I believe the soul begins at conception. I don't view conception as merely biological, but also the moment that God breathes life, a soul into the unborn child. (Gen 2.7)

But the baby doesn't breath until it comes out. That's the breath that makes the baby a living soul.

Gen 2:7* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.*

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But the baby doesn't breath until it comes out. That's the breath that makes the baby a living soul.

Gen 2:7* And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.*

That was true for Adam and Eve who were created as adults, but not for the rest of us. Too many verses about God knowing us in the womb.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That was true for Adam and Eve who were created as adults, but not for the rest of us. Too many verses about God knowing us in the womb.

God knowing us in the womb, but my question is “when” in the womb because it’s a full nine months. Since you believe a woman cannot abort a baby once it has a heartbeat, then it would be about 5.5-6 weeks or one and a half months of first trimester that a woman can abort but not after. And it’s easy for technology nowadays but what if we had no technology and cant tell when the heartbeat occurs? What then?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What's in us colors what we see. It seems you know bitterness. You might ask yourself why that is and if there's a harmful root of bitterness that needs dealt with inside you . . .

I think you’ll have to forgive Love. From what I can psychoanalyze from Love’s retort to Ohio is that he/she means we can all have a little more love and compassion, including Ohio. . And that somehow, our deep seated outlooks on abortion can be framed from what we experienced as a child ourselves. It is natural for an adult who was abused/neglected as a child can have particular high emotional sensitivity and empathy to protect the unborn babies in the world because they can feel the helplessness that they themselves can relate to. And to have less compassion for the women because of how their mothers failed them.Now, all this happens on a subconscious level so you guys might not agree or not take what I say at face value, but that’s okay. I know we all probably have some “mommy issues”, hence why the subject of abortion is especially touchy and tensions can arise. Now I’m not sure your own experiences but this is interesting; maybe you and Ohio can take a look at what colors your own views about abortion. I know that for me, it’s inclusive to what I experienced from my aunt’s decision to abort her child with Down syndrome due to her decision not to leave the child suffering in a society that looks down upon and has not enough resources to help those with Down- Syndrome (I’m not talking about the U.S) and some friends’ experiences with abortion, not due to “convenience”, but due to consideration for the quality of life they feel they can provide for the child. So Anti-abortion/prolofers and pro-choice have more in common than you and I think. Ultimately, it boils down to less suffering for both the mother and child, just on different aspects and degrees.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

God knowing us in the womb, but my question is “when” in the womb because it’s a full nine months. Since you believe a woman cannot abort a baby once it has a heartbeat, then it would be about 5.5-6 weeks or one and a half months of first trimester that a woman can abort but not after.

And it’s easy for technology nowadays but what if we had no technology and cant tell when the heartbeat occurs? What then?

Huh? You don't read very well. I don't believe any woman should ever abort her own unborn child. I have said this repeatedly. I also said that I support legislation that stops abortions after the unborn child's heart begins beating.

But ... what if the power grid goes down? What about a neutron EMP bomb? What if Biden is elected? What then? There is just no end to these "what about" games.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey "Love".

If you're going to post further, you will have to register for membership. If, by chance, you are already registered, then I'm going to have ask you to sign in and post under your registered name. Thanks.
-

Sounds to me like "Love" may be already registered and may have been busted for faking a second identity. Just a guess.

Either way, let me suggest that some other name be selected that is better suited to the poster's character than "Love."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I think you’ll have to forgive Love. From what I can psychoanalyze from Love’s retort to Ohio is that he/she means we can all have a little more love and compassion, including Ohio. . And that somehow, our deep seated outlooks on abortion can be framed from what we experienced as a child ourselves. It is natural for an adult who was abused/neglected as a child can have particular high emotional sensitivity and empathy to protect the unborn babies in the world because they can feel the helplessness that they themselves can relate to. And to have less compassion for the women because of how their mothers failed them.Now, all this happens on a subconscious level so you guys might not agree or not take what I say at face value, but that’s okay. I know we all probably have some “mommy issues”, hence why the subject of abortion is especially touchy and tensions can arise. Now I’m not sure your own experiences but this is interesting; maybe you and Ohio can take a look at what colors your own views about abortion. I know that for me, it’s inclusive to what I experienced from my aunt’s decision to abort her child with Down syndrome due to her decision not to leave the child suffering in a society that looks down upon and has not enough resources to help those with Down- Syndrome (I’m not talking about the U.S) and some friends’ experiences with abortion, not due to “convenience”, but due to consideration for the quality of life they feel they can provide for the child. So Anti-abortion/prolofers and pro-choice have more in common than you and I think. Ultimately, it boils down to less suffering for both the mother and child, just on different aspects and degrees.

I helped raise a Down-Syndrome child. That was never easy or convenient, but definitely rewarding, and the decision was never regretted because it was pleasing to God our Creator.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I think you’ll have to forgive Love.

Be glad to. Where was that post with their apology?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh? You don't read very well. I don't believe any woman should ever abort her own unborn child. I have said this repeatedly. I also said that I support legislation that stops abortions after the unborn child's heart begins beating.

But ... what if the power grid goes down? What about a neutron EMP bomb? What if Biden is elected? What then? There is just no end to these "what about" games.

Maybe you should be more clear. Like “no heartbeat” can mean multiple things- a still born, a clump of cells getting a heartbeat, etc

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Be glad to. Where was that post with their apology?

As Christians, we’re supoosed to forgive everyone even if they don’t apologize.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

As Christians, we’re supoosed to forgive everyone even if they don’t apologize.

That's the standard, but without Christ's life in us and living through us, genuine forgiveness is pretty much impossible.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

As Christians, we’re supoosed to forgive everyone even if they don’t apologize.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That's the standard, but without Christ's life in us and living through us, genuine forgiveness is pretty much impossible.

Wait, wait, wait, where does the Bible say "you have to forgive no matter what" (which is what "no apology" implies)?

Jesus says forgive 70x7 "if they repent":

Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.

Jesus says in Matthew 18 that if you have a problem with someone, go talk to them. If they don't "hear" (i.e. repent) He doesn't say "you have to forgive them". He says to ratchet it up and bring more people, and then tell the church, and then treat them as unbelievers if they don't repent. He never says "forgive no matter what".

Forgiveness is always predicated on repentance. That's how God forgives us in Christ (when we acknowledge our sins and repent of them).

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That was true for Adam and Eve who were created as adults, but not for the rest of us. Too many verses about God knowing us in the womb.

God knows every atom too, all the time. And Gen 2:7 is a more valid probability than God breathed into non-breathing cells at conception. Just admit that you don't know when it becomes a soul. You seem to want it to be a soul at the dinner before conception ... cuz Jeremiah 1:5 says, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds to me like "Love" may be already registered and may have been busted for faking a second identity. Just a guess.

Either way, let me suggest that some other name be selected that is better suited to the poster's character than "Love."

So you dislike what Love says so you cast aspersions upon him/her, like He/She is a member deceiving us by signing in as a guest.

And should you really put down Love? Better go back and study 1 Corinthians 13 again.

If I didn't know that you think you are holding fast to the Bible, I would never be able to understand your biases.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That's the standard, but without Christ's life in us and living through us, genuine forgiveness is pretty much impossible.

Oh c'mon. Even atheists are able to forgive.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wait, wait, wait, where does the Bible say "you have to forgive no matter what" (which is what "no apology" implies)?

Jesus says forgive 70x7 "if they repent":

Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.

Jesus says in Matthew 18 that if you have a problem with someone, go talk to them. If they don't "hear" (i.e. repent) He doesn't say "you have to forgive them". He says to ratchet it up and bring more people, and then tell the church, and then treat them as unbelievers if they don't repent. He never says "forgive no matter what".

Forgiveness is always predicated on repentance. That's how God forgives us in Christ (when we acknowledge our sins and repent of them).

Brother Trapped, aren't you combining two gospels to form one of your own? :

Mat 18:21* Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?*
Mat 18:22* Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.*

It says nothing about repentance.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Maybe you should be more clear. Like “no heartbeat” can mean multiple things- a still born, a clump of cells getting a heartbeat, etc

Oh please, Miss Psychoanalyzer, you knew what I meant when I said that I would like to see legislation ending abortion after the unborn child's heart begins to beat. And how much technology is needed, just a stethoscope! Developed hundreds of years ago!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you dislike what Love says so you cast aspersions upon him/her, like He/She is a member deceiving us by signing in as a guest.

And should you really put down Love? Better go back and study 1 Corinthians 13 again.

If I didn't know that you think you are holding fast to the Bible, I would never be able to understand your biases.

It was just an alleged guess on my part. Maybe it was you!

Now I demand that you forgive me! Didn't you say even atheists can do it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

God knows every atom too, all the time. And Gen 2:7 is a more valid probability than God breathed into non-breathing cells at conception. Just admit that you don't know when it becomes a soul. You seem to want it to be a soul at the dinner before conception ... cuz Jeremiah 1:5 says, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.

Yes, Jehovah knew us in eternity past. Only God knows the future!

But thanks for using scripture to prove my point that Jehovah formed us in the womb. That child in the womb is not just an egg and a sperm, but a miracle of life, with the Lord forming a new human life in the womb, and that life is the soul life.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Trapped, aren't you combining two gospels to form one of your own?

Mat 18:21* Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?*
Mat 18:22* Jesus saith unto him, [COLOR=Red]I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.*

It says nothing about repentance.

What on earth do you mean about combining two gospels to form my own? I quoted directly from Luke. You're throwing out part of a gospel to create your own.

Luke 17:3-4
3 So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent[/B], forgive them.
4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

The parallel passage in Matthew does not have the phrase "and if they repent" but it immediately follows the passage I quoted in my post concerning "if they hear you", which is acknowledgement, godly sorrow, repentance.

Repentance is repeatedly the requirement for forgiveness.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

What on earth do you mean about combining two gospels to form my own? I quoted directly from Luke. You're throwing out part of a gospel to create your own.

Luke 17:3-4
3 So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

The parallel passage in Matthew does not have the phrase "and if they repent" but it immediately follows the passage I quoted in my post concerning "if they hear you", which is acknowledgement, godly sorrow, repentance.

Repentance is repeatedly the requirement for forgiveness.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

awareness needs to repent for bearing false witness against his forum neighbor.

[awareness]

Trapped, seems you used MS Word to create your post, so responding to it turns into too much work. Click on "quote" on your post to see the mess.

But in your response I see you used 5 books to form your own book.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Oh please, Miss Psychoanalyzer, you knew what I meant when I said that I would like to see legislation ending abortion after the unborn child's heart begins to beat. And how much technology is needed, just a stethoscope! Developed hundreds of years ago!

They need ultrasound to see the child’s heart beating. clearly you havent been a woman haha.

But in case you are curious and want to try out the stethoscope, here is one kind for you: https://www.healthline.com/health/pr...pe#other-tools

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

awareness needs to repent for bearing false witness against his forum neighbor.

What happened to turning the other cheek when someone slaps you?
See thats why sometimes I feel the Bible is contradictory at times.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

They need ultrasound to see the child’s heart beating. clearly you havent been a woman haha.

You only need a stethoscope to hear the child’s heart beating.

Clearly you have not thought this one out. haha to you too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

What happened to turning the other cheek when someone slaps you?
See thats why sometimes I feel the Bible is contradictory at times.

You readily support the murder of defenseless unborn children, and then demand the aborted child to forgive you for being an inconvenience.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trapped, seems you used MS Word to create your post, so responding to it turns into too much work. Click on "quote" on your post to see the mess.

But in your response I see you used 5 books to form your own book.

I clicked quote and it looks perfectly normal to me. I expected to see weird formatting or code, but it's all normal.

Oh no! Repentance shows up in MULTIPLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE as a precursor for forgiveness! How terrible of me to point it out!!


Edit to add: pardon the phrase here, but holy crap. On a hunch I opened it in a different browser (chrome versus firefox) and the mess showed up there. I deleted all the stuff, which I have no idea what it was. The code for formatting bold and italics, etc is still there (on firefox it doesn't show) but that should be handle-able. If you need to quote it, it should work now.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

What happened to turning the other cheek when someone slaps you?
See thats why sometimes I feel the Bible is contradictory at times.

There's no contradiction in this particular case.

The "if he repents" verses are about interactions among believers. The "turn the other cheek" is regarding unbelievers.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

The "evil person" is not a believer, but an unbeliever. There are different requirements for believers versus unbelievers, and for interacting with believers versus unbelievers.

There is no case in the church where believers are told to be okay with unrepentant sin of another believer, but instead repeatedly say to rebuke and confront and address it. The only exception is 1 Corinthians 6 but that is regarding going as far as lawsuits, and it does not in any way mean that the Matthew 18 steps of confronting your brother, telling another, telling the church, and then treating them as tax collectors if they don't repent do not apply.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You only need a stethoscope to hear the child’s heart beating.

Clearly you have not thought this one out. haha to you too.

I think I have to spell it out for you. The vaginal stethoscope can only be used to hear a child’s heartbeat in the womb at about five months. Thats modern technology right now, unless you can find me a better stethoscope. Thus, an ultrasound is needed to see the child’s heartbeat at any time earlier than five months gestation.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

There's no contradiction in this particular case.

The "if he repents" verses are about interactions among believers. The "turn the other cheek" is regarding unbelievers.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

The "evil person" is not a believer, but an unbeliever. There are different requirements for believers versus unbelievers, and for interacting with believers versus unbelievers.

There is no case in the church where believers are told to be okay with unrepentant sin of another believer, but instead repeatedly say to rebuke and confront and address it. The only exception is 1 Corinthians 6 but that is regarding going as far as lawsuits, and it does not in any way mean that the Matthew 18 steps of confronting your brother, telling another, telling the church, and then treating them as tax collectors if they don't repent do not apply.

But we dont know if Love is a believer or unbeliever. She/he thinks you are in a bookclub

I just left the chat a few days ago and now this thread exploded. 😂 You guys got too crazy over me.

I feel loved.

I was never a part of this church so why should I register? Why would I even join considering that this group is a full of misinformed oldies? After Ohio the bitter old man falsely accused awareness, why should I join? Trapped and Sons of Glory believe that everything should be conditional once I apologize to them. You guys are cultists.

I was part of the Roman Catholic Church and I knew someone from Local Church.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Love

I just left the chat a few days ago and now this thread exploded. �� You guys got too crazy over me.

I feel loved.

I was never a part of this church so why should I register? Why would I even join considering that this group is a full of misinformed oldies? After Ohio the bitter old man falsely accused awareness, why should I join? Trapped and Sons of Glory believe that everything should be conditional once I apologize to them. You guys are cultists.

I was part of the Roman Catholic Church and I knew someone from Local Church.

No, forgiveness isn't conditional once there is a genuine apology. Forgiveness is conditional UPON a genuine apology, not once there is a genuine apology. Forgiveness is required once there is a genuine apology.

If you think the discussion on forgiveness points to cultism, then you have no idea what a cultist is.

You should join to set us straight since we are clearly in need of serious help.

Name-calling is a great way to start!

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

No, forgiveness isn't conditional once there is a genuine apology. Forgiveness is conditional UPON a genuine apology, not once there is a genuine apology. Forgiveness is required once there is a genuine apology.

If you think the discussion on forgiveness points to cultism, then you have no idea what a cultist is.

You should join to set us straight since we are clearly in need of serious help.

Name-calling is a great way to start!

To me the RCC is also a cult. so he/she may have some points here.. Let me ask you Trapped- if an adult sexually raped a minor and say that he/she has repented, and begged for forgiveness and they are both Christian, does that mean forgiveness is needed on the part of the minor? It seems more complicated than that. What if the minor had no proof that the perp actually really did repent? does that mean he’s she should take the word of the perp AS IS?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I clicked quote and it looks perfectly normal to me. I expected to see weird formatting or code, but it's all normal.

Oh no! Repentance shows up in MULTIPLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE as a precursor for forgiveness! How terrible of me to point it out!!


Edit to add: pardon the phrase here, but holy crap. On a hunch I opened it in a different browser (chrome versus firefox) and the mess showed up there. I deleted all the stuff, which I have no idea what it was. The code for formatting bold and italics, etc is still there (on firefox it doesn't show) but that should be handle-able. If you need to quote it, it should work now.

I forgive you. Now repenting would mean that you will sin no more. Was I right? That you wrote that post in MS Word?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

There's no contradiction in this particular case.

The "if he repents" verses are about interactions among believers. The "turn the other cheek" is regarding unbelievers.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

The "evil person" is not a believer, but an unbeliever. There are different requirements for believers versus unbelievers, and for interacting with believers versus unbelievers.

There is no case in the church where believers are told to be okay with unrepentant sin of another believer, but instead repeatedly say to rebuke and confront and address it. The only exception is 1 Corinthians 6 but that is regarding going as far as lawsuits, and it does not in any way mean that the Matthew 18 steps of confronting your brother, telling another, telling the church, and then treating them as tax collectors if they don't repent do not apply.

Can I ask, believers in what? There wasn't a church at that point. There were synagogues. So believers in the Septuagint? I'm confused by believers in what?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

But we dont know if Love is a believer or unbeliever. She/he thinks you are in a bookclub

Well plain and simple, they are. They're called people of the book.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Love

I feel loved.

As far as I'm concerned you are.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can I ask, believers in what? There wasn't a church at that point. There were synagogues. So believers in the Septuagint? I'm confused by believers in what?

The same body of people that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 18 when he said "tell it to the church", even though there wasn't the church when He said it. There is no need to assume Jesus was speaking concerning an already existing thing as opposed to it being future instruction.

In Matthew 16 Jesus had just told Peter that He would build His church. That church.

The "evil person" in the other verse I quoted can simply be a pagan or idol worshiper or unrighteous Roman (I have a vague recollection from somewhere that Romans could simply point to someone and make them carry their belongings for them.....don't quote me on that though).

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

I forgive you. Now repenting would mean that you will sin no more.

Nope, we've still got 70 x 7 minus 1 to go.

But I'll certainly try.

Originally Posted by awareness

Was I right? That you wrote that post in MS Word?

Right on the money. One of the rare times I involved MS Word because of the repeated bolding of phrases in the verses (that my CTRL+B shortcut no longer works with when composing in the forum box)....and all hell breaks loose. Learned my lesson on that one!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The same body of people that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 18 when he said "tell it to the church", even though there wasn't the church when He said it. There is no need to assume Jesus was speaking concerning an already existing thing as opposed to it being future instruction.

No, I was wrong. By the time Matthew was written Paul had founded many churches. The author knowing that, slipped that take it to the church thing in.

Originally Posted by Trapped

In Matthew 16 Jesus had just told Peter that He would build His church. That church.

Or those churches.

Originally Posted by Trapped

The "evil person" in the other verse I quoted can simply be a pagan or idol worshiper or unrighteous Roman (I have a vague recollection from somewhere that Romans could simply point to someone and make them carry their belongings for them.....don't quote me on that though).

I think I ran across that as well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I clicked quote and it looks perfectly normal to me. I expected to see weird formatting or code, but it's all normal.

Oh no! Repentance shows up in MULTIPLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE as a precursor for forgiveness! How terrible of me to point it out!!


Edit to add: pardon the phrase here, but holy crap. On a hunch I opened it in a different browser (chrome versus firefox) and the mess showed up there. I deleted all the stuff, which I have no idea what it was. The code for formatting bold and italics, etc is still there (on firefox it doesn't show) but that should be handle-able. If you need to quote it, it should work now.

I saw all the codes on Firefox.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

To me the RCC is also a cult. so he/she may have some points here.. Let me ask you Trapped- if an adult sexually raped a minor and say that he/she has repented, and begged for forgiveness and they are both Christian, does that mean forgiveness is needed on the part of the minor? It seems more complicated than that. What if the minor had no proof that the perp actually really did repent? does that mean he’s she should take the word of the perp AS IS?

Well, I'm neither with the RCC nor with the LC, so "cultist" doesn't make any sense when directed at me.

Regarding the situation you described, my first reaction is that I'm not sure how realistic it is, for one main reason:

You are speaking of a "Christian sexual rapist".

You've said they are both Christian, and yet one raped the other. At that point I would have to stop you and say I have reasonable grounds to doubt the genuineness of the salvation of the rapist. The New Testament speaks often of the fruits of salvation, of the fruits that should be evident in the lives of real believers, and I have yet to find "rape" as one of the fruits listed.

There is such a thing as a false conversion, a false believer. Scripture is replete with examples. Someone who outwardly professes to be a Christian, but is not. They are the tares mixed in among the wheat (that look like the wheat, the genuine believer, but are not).

So as stated, I'm not sure the situation can stand on its own two feet.

Incidentally, this is how the "Matthew 18 principles" reveal a tare. A believer who is shown his sin by the offended party, who refuses to listen, who is then shown his sin by a few more, who still refuses to listen, who is then outed to the whole church, and STILL refuses to listen......we are told to treat him as a tax collector. He's a tare. A false believer.

But I think I do understand what you are getting at with the scenario you put forth. And although the details may vary, I don't think it's that uncommon for everyone to have to deal with some kind of variant of it at some point in their life, so it's worth asking.

Someone deals us a blow so deep, we all ask, "Do I really have to forgive THAT?"

I've personally dealt with something similar. Not rape, to be sure, but serious harm followed by fake apologies. Serious harm followed by what seemed like genuine apologies, but which "genuine" apologies were always immediately followed by more of the same intentional harm.

So I'll break my response up into two paths.

1. If the apology is genuine - if the apology of the offending party is genuine, godly sorrow, true repentance, then yes, the offended party is to forgive. Even if it's rape. Even if it's murder. Even if, even if. How can I say that? Because that is how God in Christ forgives us. If we acknowledge our sin before God, He forgives us. But notice what I'm NOT saying:

-I'm not saying forgiving means it didn't happen.
-I'm not saying forgiving means the trauma and pain and suffering of the victim aren't very, very real.
-I'm not saying that the victim has to forgive right away. Something like rape causes direct and deep trauma, and their physical, mental, emotional, psychological, relational, and spiritual healing, at least to me, should come first. Forgive when they can forgive. No one should be beating them over the head to forgive.
-I'm not saying that forgiveness in this case means a restoration of the previous relationship. Some situations involve threat to life, and we aren't called to that.
-I'm not saying the rapist shouldn't still be punished and take the consequences.

If the apology is genuine, the offending party will show it. I can't list all of them out here, but some characteristics are things like:

-admitting to all hurtful acts known
-accepts responsibility for the act, rather than blame-shifting or excusing
-admits the acts caused damage and hurt
-is willing to hear descriptions of the damage caused for as long as is necessary
-sympathizes with the pain of the victim without redirecting focus onto himself
-is willing to make amends/restitution as appropriate
-is willing to accept the damage to the relationship may be irreparable
-is willing to accept that they may not be allowed to participate in the healing process
-is willing to do whatever is necessary to rebuild trust
-makes the effort to change and turn from the sin
-submits to appropriate discipline/punishment
-is willing to wait an indefinite amount of time for the victim to forgive, according to the victim's timing
-remains repentant and humble even when he doesn't get the immediate response desired (forgiveness, etc)

A few of those shouldn't apply to rape in particular; for example, rebuilding trust after a rape is, as far as I'm concerned, a no-go.

2. If the apology isn't genuine, similarly, it will be apparent.

-apology is accompanied by denial
-apology is accompanied by arrogant attitude
-apology is followed by more of the same harmful behavior
-denies responsibility
-minimizes the seriousness of the acts
-attempts to blame-shift
-does not want to hear the pain of the victim
-makes no effort at restitution/amends
-gets annoyed when forgiveness is not granted immediately

I'll stop there, but it's all basically the opposite of the list above it.

Basically, if the apology seems genuine, we need to forgive. God can see hearts, so He knows genuine forgiveness or not at the moment of. But for us humans, we can't see into hearts, and so forgiveness doesn't mean immediate trust. The forgiveness remains if the trust is kept. If the trust is broken (by some of the characteristics listed above, say), then the forgiveness can be rescinded, as far as I'm concerned, because it shows the repentance wasn't genuine. All of these subtle details are going to be specific to each person, each action, each case, etc..... so I'm speaking as specifically as I can while still being general and knowing that a thousand "what ifs" can sprout from this.

I'm curious, though, why you think God is all-forgiving (as you've said in other threads), but when speaking of this example of injustice, the idea of all-forgiveness seems to make you balk.

Actually this is a great example to illustrate why God isn't all-forgiving. If God is all-forgiving, then the message to the victim of rape is that they don't matter. The victim is then served a further injustice by God simply being all-forgiving in the face of rape.

If we had a judge in a courtroom who had a rapist-murderer brought before him and yet simply forgave him because he's all-forgiving, that would be an unjust, unrighteous judge, and we'd throw him out of the courtroom.

But thankfully that's not God.

Believing He's all-forgiving doesn't make it so. God judges sin. Mine. Yours. Everyone's.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I saw all the codes on Firefox.

It's part of proprietary MS Word misbehaved code.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Well, I'm neither with the RCC nor with the LC, so "cultist" doesn't make any sense when directed at me.

Regarding the situation you described, my first reaction is that I'm not sure how realistic it is, for one main reason:

You are speaking of a "Christian sexual rapist".

You've said they are both Christian, and yet one raped the other. At that point I would have to stop you and say I have reasonable grounds to doubt the genuineness of the salvation of the rapist. The New Testament speaks often of the fruits of salvation, of the fruits that should be evident in the lives of real believers, and I have yet to find "rape" as one of the fruits listed.

There is such a thing as a false conversion, a false believer. Scripture is replete with examples. Someone who outwardly professes to be a Christian, but is not. They are the tares mixed in among the wheat (that look like the wheat, the genuine believer, but are not).

So as stated, I'm not sure the situation can stand on its own two feet.

Incidentally, this is how the "Matthew 18 principles" reveal a tare. A believer who is shown his sin by the offended party, who refuses to listen, who is then shown his sin by a few more, who still refuses to listen, who is then outed to the whole church, and STILL refuses to listen......we are told to treat him as a tax collector. He's a tare. A false believer.

But I think I do understand what you are getting at with the scenario you put forth. And although the details may vary, I don't think it's that uncommon for everyone to have to deal with some kind of variant of it at some point in their life, so it's worth asking.

Someone deals us a blow so deep, we all ask, "Do I really have to forgive THAT?"

I've personally dealt with something similar. Not rape, to be sure, but serious harm followed by fake apologies. Serious harm followed by what seemed like genuine apologies, but which "genuine" apologies were always immediately followed by more of the same intentional harm.

So I'll break my response up into two paths.

1. If the apology is genuine - if the apology of the offending party is genuine, godly sorrow, true repentance, then yes, the offended party is to forgive. Even if it's rape. Even if it's murder. Even if, even if. How can I say that? Because that is how God in Christ forgives us. If we acknowledge our sin before God, He forgives us. But notice what I'm NOT saying:

-I'm not saying forgiving means it didn't happen.
-I'm not saying forgiving means the trauma and pain and suffering of the victim aren't very, very real.
-I'm not saying that the victim has to forgive right away. Something like rape causes direct and deep trauma, and their physical, mental, emotional, psychological, relational, and spiritual healing, at least to me, should come first. Forgive when they can forgive. No one should be beating them over the head to forgive.
-I'm not saying that forgiveness in this case means a restoration of the previous relationship. Some situations involve threat to life, and we aren't called to that.
-I'm not saying the rapist shouldn't still be punished and take the consequences.

If the apology is genuine, the offending party will show it. I can't list all of them out here, but some characteristics are things like:

-admitting to all hurtful acts known
-accepts responsibility for the act, rather than blame-shifting or excusing
-admits the acts caused damage and hurt
-is willing to hear descriptions of the damage caused for as long as is necessary
-sympathizes with the pain of the victim without redirecting focus onto himself
-is willing to make amends/restitution as appropriate
-is willing to accept the damage to the relationship may be irreparable
-is willing to accept that they may not be allowed to participate in the healing process
-is willing to do whatever is necessary to rebuild trust
-makes the effort to change and turn from the sin
-submits to appropriate discipline/punishment
-is willing to wait an indefinite amount of time for the victim to forgive, according to the victim's timing
-remains repentant and humble even when he doesn't get the immediate response desired (forgiveness, etc)

A few of those shouldn't apply to rape in particular; for example, rebuilding trust after a rape is, as far as I'm concerned, a no-go.

2. If the apology isn't genuine, similarly, it will be apparent.

-apology is accompanied by denial
-apology is accompanied by arrogant attitude
-apology is followed by more of the same harmful behavior
-denies responsibility
-minimizes the seriousness of the acts
-attempts to blame-shift
-does not want to hear the pain of the victim
-makes no effort at restitution/amends
-gets annoyed when forgiveness is not granted immediately

I'll stop there, but it's all basically the opposite of the list above it.

Basically, if the apology seems genuine, we need to forgive. God can see hearts, so He knows genuine forgiveness or not at the moment of. But for us humans, we can't see into hearts, and so forgiveness doesn't mean immediate trust. The forgiveness remains if the trust is kept. If the trust is broken (by some of the characteristics listed above, say), then the forgiveness can be rescinded, as far as I'm concerned, because it shows the repentance wasn't genuine. All of these subtle details are going to be specific to each person, each action, each case, etc..... so I'm speaking as specifically as I can while still being general and knowing that a thousand "what ifs" can sprout from this.

I'm curious, though, why you think God is all-forgiving (as you've said in other threads), but when speaking of this example of injustice, the idea of all-forgiveness seems to make you balk.

Actually this is a great example to illustrate why God isn't all-forgiving. If God is all-forgiving, then the message to the victim of rape is that they don't matter. The victim is then served a further injustice by God simply being all-forgiving in the face of rape.

If we had a judge in a courtroom who had a rapist-murderer brought before him and yet simply forgave him because he's all-forgiving, that would be an unjust, unrighteous judge, and we'd throw him out of the courtroom.

But thankfully that's not God.

Believing He's all-forgiving doesn't make it so. God judges sin. Mine. Yours. Everyone's.

Thanks Trapped again for the lengthy response. You sure put a lot of effort into this one! I am grateful, truly am. First off, the scenario I described above was actually a real life example. It was a friend who experienced incest at the hands of her father. Now that I think more about it, yes I don’t believe his apologies were genuine based on what she described- he still minimized the hurt and expected forgiveness right away. On top of that, he still did other things like taking advantage of her financially without apologizing. So I guess in this case, he is not a true Christian.

I think you’ll have to pull up my responses on other threads that God was all-forgiving, I dont seem to remember. But yes, I agree with you on all the above premises. You should be a lawyer

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Thanks Trapped again for the lengthy response. You sure put a lot of effort into this one! I am grateful, truly am. First off, the scenario I described above was actually a real life example. It was a friend who experienced incest at the hands of her father. Now that I think more about it, yes I don’t believe his apologies were genuine based on what she described- he still minimized the hurt and expected forgiveness right away. On top of that, he still did other things like taking advantage of her financially without apologizing. So I guess in this case, he is not a true Christian.

I think you’ll have to pull up my responses on other threads that God was all-forgiving, I dont seem to remember. But yes, I agree with you on all the above premises. You should be a lawyer

I'm sorry to hear of the truth of the example. I can't even imagine. The only point I disagreed with concerning the truth of it was that the rapist could be a genuine Christian, which I don't believe he is, like you also concluded.

I hope your friend has been able to find a trauma therapist that knows how to help her process the extreme conflicting internal feelings she must have had to wrestle against as the victim of assault by someone who should have been there to protect her instead, as well as help her put the shame where it belongs - on her "father's" head rather than on her own.

The topic of forgiveness is an important one, and one that probably every human being wrestles with deeply at some point in their life. It seems to me to be the height of injustice that anyone would be abused, mistreated, traumatized, injured, hurt, harmed, damaged, and then be FURTHER beaten over the head by people who tell that broken person that they have to forgive the very act that broke them, from which they have yet to recover. It made God a God who saw a person in pain, and then bent down and broke their leg in response, rather than comforting them.

I struggled with this for years, until I actually looked into scripture. Much to my surprise, there is no "forgive no matter what" when it comes to sins/offenses among believers. There is "love covers all", but that is not speaking about "all unrepentant sins must be forgiven". If someone sins against you, you go to them, they repent and the relationship is restored - love covers all. But past that, it's the opposite - unrepentence carries great consequence for the unrepentant person.

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

This is according to the bible, although my personal beliefs is that God is all forgiving and I dont think hell exists as an eternal punishment (this is too much of a punishment for a human being who sinned for 100 years). But I’m sure God will sort it out.

This the quote of yours I had in mind, from post #161 of the LGBTQ thread, when I referenced you believing that God is all-forgiving.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The only point I disagreed with concerning the truth of it was that the rapist could be a genuine Christian, which I don't believe he is, like you also concluded.

Just to be clear - a Christian is a regenerated one, with the life of the Son in them. With that said, we Christians all still have the flesh and are capable of any fruit of the flesh - yes, including rape, murder, you name it.

As I go on in my walk with Him, after umpteen years I would like to somehow believe my flesh is getting better . . . but it's not. Our only hope is in Christ in us, our one hope of glory!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Just to be clear - a Christian is a regenerated one, with the life of the Son in them. With that said, we Christians all still have the flesh and are capable of any fruit of the flesh - yes, including rape, murder, you name it.

Agreed. A good friend of mine, genuinely born again and serving the Lord for years, did some unspeakable things, at least it was rumored in hushed tones, but then could not bear the guilt, and later took his own life. Horrible tragedy. Prior to that, the kindest and most generous guy I knew.

[Trapped]

I don't disagree, but how do we square that with 1 John 3?

In this particular instance, his actions combined with his lack of real repentance is what is leading me to conclude he's not a genuine believer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't disagree, but how do we square that with 1 John 3?

In this particular instance, his actions combined with his lack of real repentance is what is leading me to conclude he's not a genuine believer.

That is difficult, I will admit. I John 3 on the surface conflicts with I John 1.

The only attempts at reconciliation I can arrive at is what many other teachers have said, that sin here is habitual, it is practiced, it is continual without repentance, and is not a one off. Verse 9 must be read in context with the modifier in verse 6 says, "everyone who abides in Him, does not sin." The translation "practice sin" in verse 8 helps with the understanding.

The alternative understanding only produces either liars or condemnation. First, those who say they do not sin, being born again, rather only make "mistakes," and thus become deceptive, hiding sins, never repenting, etc. Second, those who are honest and admit that they sin are now condemned because they believe they are not begotten of God, nor have been.

Where do we draw the line with sin? Which sins are serious enough to prove I was never born again to begin with? See the point? Can I lie and still be saved? How about stealing? How about losing my temper? What if I hit someone? What about road rage? What if someone dies?

If you read thru the NT, you will see many rotten things describing real Christians. Look at Gal 5.19-21; I Cor 6.9-11; II Tim 3.1-6 for starters.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That is difficult, I will admit. I John 3 on the surface conflicts with I John 1.

The only attempts at reconciliation I can arrive at is what many other teachers have said, that sin here is habitual, it is practiced, it is continual without repentance, and is not a one off. Verse 9 must be read in context with the modifier in verse 6 says, "everyone who abides in Him, does not sin." The translation "practice sin" in verse 8 helps with the understanding.

The alternative understanding only produces either liars or condemnation. First, those who say they do not sin, being born again, rather only make "mistakes," and thus become deceptive, hiding sins, never repenting, etc. Second, those who are honest and admit that they sin are now condemned because they believe they are not begotten of God, nor have been.

Where do we draw the line with sin? Which sins are serious enough to prove I was never born again to begin with? See the point? Can I lie and still be saved? How about stealing? How about losing my temper? What if I hit someone? What about road rage? What if someone dies?

If you read thru the NT, you will see many rotten things describing real Christians. Look at Gal 5.19-21; I Cor 6.9-11; II Tim 3.1-6 for starters.

This isn't my full response but is just what I have time to squeeze out regarding the verse references at the end of your post.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Barnes Notes on the Bible comments that "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" means "cannot possibly be saved". I am fine acknowledging that this is an interpretation, but that is how I would read it too. I would never read that list and think "believers". Galatians 5 seems to me to be contrasting flesh/law (not saved) with Spirit/spirit (saved). Could say more but too short on time. Verses 22-24 say "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." I just don't see genuinely belonging to Christ Jesus and raping being able to go together.

1 Cor 6:9-11 is definitely about unbelievers, because just after it Paul says "and such WERE some of you....BUT you were washed, BUT you were sanctified, etc..." The rotten list is describing before salvation, not after.

2 Timothy 3:1-6 is also definitely about unbelievers, because in verse 8 he says "....so also these men (described in vv 1-6) oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith..." That sounds like an unbeliever or false believer to me.

I don't know if it's just the act of rape that's the hangup or what. I went through the same mental thought process as you as I drove home tonight, thinking "where is the line, then, that determines my own salvation, since I still sin?" Something about rape is a no-go for me as far as a genuine believer in Christ able to do it, in the sense that it is 1) aforethought, 2) continued in coercion against a struggling second party, and 3) not often done in a "blind rage". I don't know where we draw the line though, I totally agree and am scratching my head too, but I will try to say more another day when I have more time.

By the way, love him or hate him, I am getting some of my perspective from Ray Comfort of Living Waters. He preaches the gospel in a very specific way, and that is where I am getting the false conversion angle from. He is big on people walking around thinking they are good with God, outwardly serving Him, but not really saved because the real gospel wasn't preached to them...i.e. false converts. Oftentimes the fruit isn't evident in their lives. Anyway, this topic interests me some (sin after salvation) so I'll try to revisit, like I said.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

But past that, it's the opposite - unrepentence carries great consequence for the unrepentant person.

This the quote of yours I had in mind, from post #161 of the LGBTQ thread, when I referenced you believing that God is all-forgiving.

Yes my friend was able to seek a trauma specialist and has cut off her relationship with her father, even older sister, who still feels my friend should forgive her dad.

Anyways, I remember my thought process behind that quote. To clarify, I agree with you that unrepentance leads to great consequences, but I believe that God is still faithful enough to provide us enough chances before we die to repent and also, his punishment will fit the crime so to speak.. a person wont burn in hell for an eternity even for lets say, his whole lifetime, he’s been serial killing/murdering. So in a way, God is “all-forgiving” in the sense that he wont make us suffer or have consequences beyond the gravity of our sins. I shouldnt have used the word “all forgiving”, more like “fair”.

[awareness]

I just don't want to be like the scribes in Mark 2, demanding repentance when the sins of the paralytic in v. 5 were forgiven without repentance.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

I just don't want to be like the scribes in Mark 2, demanding repentance when the sins of the paralytic in v. 5 were forgiven without repentance.

The scribes in Mark 2 weren't demanding repentance. They were affronted because they said "only God can forgive sins", and by Jesus proclaiming that the paralytic's sins were forgiven, in their eyes He was making Himself equal with God ("so you know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...").

The faith, willingness to be brought before Him, was the repentance. Jesus can see into hearts, unlike us, and could see the condition of the paralytic's heart, whether defiant and closed (unrepentant) or humble and open (repentant).

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

1 Cor 6:9-11 is definitely about unbelievers, because just after it Paul says "and such WERE some of you....BUT you were washed, BUT you were sanctified, etc..." The rotten list is describing before salvation, not after.

It could be believers or unbelievers - or put a better way - regenerated or unregenerated. Being a Christian just means who we have been made (sons of God) in Christ, with His life in us. It doesn't speak to our behaviors, which can be all over the map and look exactly like what we were saved from. However, the reality is our old man has been crucified, and now we are encouraged to walk according to the new reality of who we really are.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It could be believers or unbelievers - or put a better way - regenerated or unregenerated. Being a Christian just means who we have been made (sons of God) in Christ, with His life in us. It doesn't speak to our behaviors, which can be all over the map and look exactly like what we were saved from. However, the reality is our old man has been crucified, and now we are encouraged to walk according to the new reality of who we really are.

I don't read those verses that way at all. You think there are genuine, regenerated believers in Christ, who have the life of Christ in them, who are still....

...continuing in sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexual relations, thieving, greed, drunkenness, verbally abusive, and cheating people?

That would be false believers if I ever heard one!

Paul's point is that they WERE those things, BUT then they got saved.

In the preceding chapter, Paul says:

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.
10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

"claims to be a brother but is [list of sinful actions]....." In other words, claims to be saved but the fruit of his life shows he really isn't.

We can associate with sinful people who acknowledge they aren't regenerated, but not people who claim they are brothers but really aren't, but live as if they aren't.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't read those verses that way at all. You think there are genuine, regenerated believers in Christ, who have the life of Christ in them, who are still....

...continuing in sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexual relations, thieving, greed, drunkenness, verbally abusive, and cheating people?

That would be false believers if I ever heard one!

Paul's point is that they WERE those things, BUT then they got saved.

In the preceding chapter, Paul says:

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.
10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

"claims to be a brother but is [list of sinful actions]....." In other words, claims to be saved but the fruit of his life shows he really isn't.

We can associate with sinful people who acknowledge they aren't regenerated, but not people who claim they are brothers but really aren't, but live as if they aren't.

The point is their behavior is from the old nature/flesh. This is regardless of whether they are regenerated or not. I think Ohio made the point that those who continue practicing those things on an ongoing basis are the ones in question here.

I certainly know of ones who are absolutely 100% regenerated, who after being zealous for the Lord have turned their back on Him, to go fully into the world and their flesh (whether "good" flesh or "bad" flesh). They are still reborn, as you can't be unborn. But their behavior is little different than an unbeliever, and essentially all testimony of Christ appears nonexistent. However, Christ is still in them as they are still His children, right?

You might call them "false believers,' but once the life of Christ gets in them they are sons of the most high - maybe not very good sons, but sons nonetheless. It's not outward behaviors that gets us regenerated in the first place, and it's not outward behaviors that makes us continue as sons. To be born of Him is a matter of life . . . not behaviors.

However, there is accountability - It is these ones, regenerated but practicing those fleshly behaviors, which will have the most to loose at the Bema judgment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The scribes in Mark 2 weren't demanding repentance. They were affronted because they said "only God can forgive sins", and by Jesus proclaiming that the paralytic's sins were forgiven, in their eyes He was making Himself equal with God ("so you know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...").

The faith, willingness to be brought before Him, was the repentance. Jesus can see into hearts, unlike us, and could see the condition of the paralytic's heart, whether defiant and closed (unrepentant) or humble and open (repentant).

Ten years ago I also was extremely patient and long-suffering with awareness' many off color questionings, and like you offered extended and reasonable answers for him. At what point do we just assume that some of his posts are just plain trolling from Wile E. Coyote on his keyboard?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't read those verses that way at all. You think there are genuine, regenerated believers in Christ, who have the life of Christ in them, who are still....

...continuing in sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexual relations, thieving, greed, drunkenness, verbally abusive, and cheating people?

But that is why Paul wrote his letter to them!

Read all the other epistles. They were not written to the unbelievers in the world, but to the church. Haven't you heard of some nasty stories from LSM and the LC's? These same stories exist in many churches out there. Look at the recent news about the President of Liberty Univ. He was surely saved at some point.

So we must conclude that either Christians are capable of nasty sins, or that those who commit nasty sins have lost their salvation.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ten years ago I also was extremely patient and long-suffering with awareness' many off color questionings, and like you offered extended and reasonable answers for him. At what point do we just assume that some of his posts are just plain trolling from Wile E. Coyote on his keyboard?

On one hand it helps me because I'm forced to look to see if my viewpoint still holds up under contention, but on the other hand, it gets pretty wearing to repeatedly encounter what seems like disingenuous responses to what I write very much in earnest.

I guess I respond for the anonymous reader who might get turned astray by his comments. My own patience is wearing thin though too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The scribes in Mark 2 weren't demanding repentance. They were affronted because they said "only God can forgive sins", and by Jesus proclaiming that the paralytic's sins were forgiven, in their eyes He was making Himself equal with God ("so you know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...").

The faith, willingness to be brought before Him, was the repentance. Jesus can see into hearts, unlike us, and could see the condition of the paralytic's heart, whether defiant and closed (unrepentant) or humble and open (repentant).

Well okay. I didn't realize the willingness to be brought before Him, was the repentance. My bad. So there are other ways to repent than just repenting. Thanks, I've learned something.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It could be believers or unbelievers - or put a better way - regenerated or unregenerated. Being a Christian just means who we have been made (sons of God) in Christ, with His life in us. It doesn't speak to our behaviors, which can be all over the map and look exactly like what we were saved from. However, the reality is our old man has been crucified, and now we are encouraged to walk according to the new reality of who we really are.

Good one Sons to Glory ... and real.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ten years ago I also was extremely patient and long-suffering with awareness' many off color questionings, and like you offered extended and reasonable answers for him. At what point do we just assume that some of his posts are just plain trolling from Wile E. Coyote on his keyboard?

Goodness! A compliment. I'm not use to that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness! A compliment. I'm not use to that.

I can't tell you how many times I read one of your posts and pictured you as that ole Keyboard Chuckling Coyote waiting to ambush unsuspecting Roadrunner.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I can't tell you how many times I read one of your posts and pictured you as that ole Keyboard Chuckling Coyote waiting to ambush unsuspecting Roadrunner.

But the Roadrunner always escapes, sometimes by running into a painted tunnel, that I just smack into.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But the Roadrunner always escapes, sometimes by running into a painted tunnel, that I just smack into.

As a kid, I loved that cartoon. Back in the day when good guys won, usually.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As a kid, I loved that cartoon. Back in the day when good guys won, usually.

But now we're all winners!

[zeek]

https://baptistnews.com/article/how-...Y#.X9IqOthKjIW

U.S. politics would be better off if White evangelicals consistently applied their moral tradition to public life. Not only Christians, of course, can stand for integrity. But consider what would happen if White evangelicals insisted on supporting honest, compassionate, decent, civil, self-controlled men and women for office. The alternative is our current reality, in which evangelicals have often been a malicious and malignant influence in U.S. politics.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://baptistnews.com/article/how-...Y#.X9IqOthKjIW

Wingfield spells it out clearly .... shameful

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

U.S. politics would be better off if White evangelicals consistently applied their moral tradition to public life. Not only Christians, of course, can stand for integrity. But consider what would happen if White evangelicals insisted on supporting honest, compassionate, decent, civil, self-controlled men and women for office. The alternative is our current reality, in which evangelicals have often been a malicious and malignant influence in U.S. politics.

By attacking only those on the Conservative Right, Wingfield gives the impression that the Left is composed of "honest, compassionate, decent, civil, self-controlled men and women." Nothing could be further from the truth, but by controlling all of mainstream media, this illusion seems to be true. But how can we expect any "honest, compassionate, decent, civil, self-controlled men and women" on the Left, when they support the indiscriminate slaughter of the unborn -- the most innocent members of society -- all justified by the carefully sanitized words "rights" and "choice?"

Compare Trump and Biden regarding race and sexism. Biden has a long history of incredibly racist statements, yet all covered up by the Press. Trump has none of that, so they twist his words about saying there are "good people" on both sides of the monuments debate. Trump may have had a couple divorces and a desire for beautiful women, but never did he molest or take advantage of any. He never destroyed another's marriage. Biden, however, is a total pervert sniffing old and young girls, destroying a marriage in order to marry some doctor, and molesting Tara Reade, a former employee.

But when the media covers for all your sins, it's like they never happened, right? And I haven't even mentioned decades of bribes and treason connected with enriching Biden's extended family.


But back to the real topic at hand -- just another misguided smear on God's people.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But back to the real topic at hand -- just another misguided smear on God's people.

What makes you think they're God's people?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

What makes you think they're God's people?

They confess their faith in Jesus Christ, and speak of being born of water and the Spirit entering the Kingdom of God. (John 3)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They confess their faith in Jesus Christ, and speak of being born of water and the Spirit entering the Kingdom of God. (John 3)

Where do they do that?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They confess their faith in Jesus Christ, and speak of being born of water and the Spirit entering the Kingdom of God. (John 3)

All I see is Trump holding the bible upside down. Poor guy

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

All I see is Trump holding the bible upside down. Poor guy

Justifies the condemnation of all "white evangelicals?" Sounds extremely petty and small-minded.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Justifies the condemnation of all "white evangelicals?" Sounds extremely petty and small-minded.

Face it bro Ohio, you're just defending a ghost ... that you don't know at all ; just an idea that you like in your head ... to vindicate your own position.

And you can't admit Christendom's failures ... any more than you can admit that Jesus has failed you.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

And you can't admit Christendom's failures ... any more than you can admit that Jesus has failed you.

Christendom failures - sure. Jesus failing? Never.

But my suggestion is go to Jesus and tell Him you think He's failed you . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Christendom failures - sure. Jesus failing? Never.

But my suggestion is go to Jesus and tell Him you think He's failed you . . .

After all my hopes and dreams failed in the local church I already did that.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

After all my hopes and dreams failed in the local church I already did that.

Christ in you, the one hope of glory bro! All else is rubbish fit for the trash can.

[zeek]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/u...d5acb1496951c6

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Friday rejected a lawsuit by Texas that had asked the court to throw out the election results in four battleground states that President Trump lost in November, ending any prospect that a brazen attempt to use the courts to reverse his defeat at the polls would succeed.

“I think this will end up in the Supreme Court,” Mr. Trump said of the election a few days after Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s death in September. “And I think it’s very important that we have nine justices.”

He was right that an election dispute would end up in the Supreme Court. But he was quite wrong to think the court, even after he appointed a third of its members, would do his bidding. And with the Electoral College set to meet on Monday, Mr. Trump’s efforts to change the outcome of the election will soon be at an end.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/u...d5acb1496951c6

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Friday rejected a lawsuit by Texas that had asked the court to throw out the election results in four battleground states that President Trump lost in November, ending any prospect that a brazen attempt to use the courts to reverse his defeat at the polls would succeed.

“I think this will end up in the Supreme Court,” Mr. Trump said of the election a few days after Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s death in September. “And I think it’s very important that we have nine justices.”

He was right that an election dispute would end up in the Supreme Court. But he was quite wrong to think the court, even after he appointed a third of its members, would do his bidding. And with the Electoral College set to meet on Monday, Mr. Trump’s efforts to change the outcome of the election will soon be at an end.

He’d better hurry. There’s only one more month until his term ends

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Justifies the condemnation of all "white evangelicals?" Sounds extremely petty and small-minded.

I didnt say that. I just find it funny when white evangelicals dont read the bible and hold the bible the wrong way. Unless they can read upside down. Now that is a talent.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Christ in you, the one hope of glory bro! All else is rubbish fit for the trash can.

Then why does bro Ohio defend all of Christendom?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/u...d5acb1496951c6

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Friday rejected a lawsuit by Texas that had asked the court to throw out the election results in four battleground states that President Trump lost in November, ending any prospect that a brazen attempt to use the courts to reverse his defeat at the polls would succeed.

“I think this will end up in the Supreme Court,” Mr. Trump said of the election a few days after Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s death in September. “And I think it’s very important that we have nine justices.”

He was right that an election dispute would end up in the Supreme Court. But he was quite wrong to think the court, even after he appointed a third of its members, would do his bidding. And with the Electoral College set to meet on Monday, Mr. Trump’s efforts to change the outcome of the election will soon be at an end.

It's got to twist he kickers in a knot that, Obama won two terms, without the courts, but he didn't, even with filing 51 legal lawsuits. Plus, that he's now a loser. Obama's a winner, and he's a loser.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I didnt say that. I just find it funny when white evangelicals dont read the bible and hold the bible the wrong way. Unless they can read upside down. Now that is a talent.

And you are omniscient? And you think it's funny that white evangelicals don't read the Bible? Only God could know that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then why does bro Ohio defend all of Christendom?

Where did I defend all of Christendom?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where did I defend all of Christendom?

God's people .....

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And you are omniscient? And you think it's funny that white evangelicals don't read the Bible? Only God could know that.

Even if they do read it, some dont practice what they read or what Jesus preaches in the Bible. I doubt Trump has read it through even once.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

God's people .....

Christendom has NEVER referred to God's people.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Christendom has NEVER referred to God's people.

Who’s Gods people, the Jewish or the Christians?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Christendom has NEVER referred to God's people.

But you did to zeek in post #6229.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Who’s Gods people, the Jewish or the Christians?

I wondered that too. But certainly now, not Trump, and not the evangelicals that supports him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I wondered that too. But certainly now, not Trump, and not the evangelicals that supports him.

Endless word games. You learned well from LSM.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Endless word games. You learned well from LSM.

So says a fervent evangelical Trump supporter. I guess you can't help it since your hero savior lost.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

So says a fervent evangelical Trump supporter. I guess you can't help it since your hero savior lost.

Is that a fervent evangelical or a fervent Trump supporter, or both?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is that a fervent evangelical or a fervent Trump supporter, or both?

I think both. I've seen his Trump supporting out here, and he's always supporting evangelicals.

[awareness]

“Four more years, because God is the one who is in control of this,” Ms. Carter said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/12/u...nts-clash.html

[zeek]

Jesus said, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." The USA seems to be deeply divided. Is there any way we can become more unified?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Jesus said, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." The USA seems to be deeply divided. Is there any way we can become more unified?

My concern too. It seems almost impossible since academia has bought into the idea that the USA is inherently evil, introducing Marxism as preferable, and Critical Race Theory as the "cure."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My concern too. It seems almost impossible since academia has bought into the idea that the USA is inherently evil, introducing Marxism as preferable, and Critical Race Theory as the "cure."

Perhaps if a common enemy/threat were seen that we all must become unified against. However, I don't know that even that would produce effective unity in this country . . .

Personally, my hope is riding on The King!

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Perhaps if a common enemy/threat were seen that we all must become unified against. However, I don't know that even that would produce effective unity in this country . . .

Personally, my hope is riding on The King!

I feel the US is always more united when there’s a World war or Cold War or something international struggle going on. But God forbid please.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I feel the US is always more united when there’s a World war or Cold War or something international struggle going on. But God forbid please.

We're seeing more deaths in a day than 9/11.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by awareness

We're seeing more deaths in a day than 9/11.

Yes where is our stimulus check? I”ve been waiting for four months now. the more stimulus checks there are, the more people dont have to go outside and work and spread covid.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Yes where is our stimulus check? I”ve been waiting for four months now. the more stimulus checks there are, the more people dont have to go outside and work and spread covid.

Hey - just wait till yer older and ya get all kinds of things "free!"

BTW - looks like officially almost 5% of the US population has had it, with about 1/10th of 1% of the population that has died from it (if I've done my quick math right that is).

I hope we learn what we really need to learn from all this (not saying I know what that is - just sayin)!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - just wait till yer older and ya get all kinds of things "free!"

BTW - looks like officially almost 5% of the US population has had it, with about 1/10th of 1% of the population that has died from it (if I've done my quick math right that is).

I hope we learn what we really need to learn from all this (not saying I know what that is - just sayin)!

Herd immunity becomes effective at 30-40%?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - just wait till yer older and ya get all kinds of things "free!"

BTW - looks like officially almost 5% of the US population has had it, with about 1/10th of 1% of the population that has died from it (if I've done my quick math right that is).

I hope we learn what we really need to learn from all this (not saying I know what that is - just sayin)!

Which source are you looking at?

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cov...uxwSGLw7zkSx4z

it also depends on which state you are in.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Which source are you looking at?

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cov...uxwSGLw7zkSx4z

it also depends on which state you are in.

I was looking at the John Hopkins numbers. That WSJ article talks about cases that have not been officially identified. They say that only one in eight Covid cases have been identified - that seems like a high number to me. But who knows!?

If that's the case, it makes the 300,000 deaths that have been reported a fairly small percentage of those getting it as dying, doesn't it? Using those numbers, 15% of the population having actually/probably who have gotten it is almost 5 million people. Of that, 300,00 have officially died making it about 6% of those who've had it who have died. (and that percentage is suspect, since we're always hearing about people who have died for other reasons, but just happened to have Covid too)

In any case, it still makes a little less that 1/10th of 1% (or 1 in one thousand) of total population of the USA who have officially died from it. (and please check my math, because I did go to public scholls . . .)

[Ohio]

This video is an incredible eye opener on Fauci and the Coronavirus.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This video is an incredible eye opener on Fauci and the Coronavirus.

Interesting . . . and just to be fair, here's a "balancing" article from the USA Today. SEE HERE

Our ruling: False
Based on our research, the claim that the pandemic was "planned" or created by the CDC, NIH, EcoHealth Alliance, or the Wuhan Virology Institute is FALSE.

"Plandemic II: Indoctornation" is based on a number of cherry-picked facts, such as the existence of a patent on the genome of SARS-CoV, and the transfer of funds from the NIH to EcoHealth Alliance to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The nefarious extrapolations it makes are unsupported and even disproven by facts.

The CDC did patent the genome of SARS-CoV. But it was legal and intended to ensure open access for all researchers, not for profit. SARS-CoV is not the same virus as SARS-CoV-2, which causes COVID-19. And the project funded by the NIH at EcoHealth Alliance, in part involving the Wuhan Virology Institute, was to identify and fight coronaviruses, not create them.

So who knows!? Trying to figure this stuff out is difficult at best. If something like this was done, very smart people would have been covering-up their trail . . .

In the end, scripture says, "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short . . . For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:22 & 24) So, if we are getting close to the end of the age (and I believe we most likely are), then the deceptions will only intensify and it will be very easy to be seduced and duped. Only by clinging to Him who is Truth will we not be completely hornswoggled.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting . . . and just to be fair, here's a "balancing" article from the USA Today. SEE HERE
So who knows!? Trying to figure this stuff out is difficult at best. If something like this was done, very smart people would have been covering-up their trail . . .

In the end, scripture says, "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short . . . For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:22 & 24) So, if we are getting close to the end of the age (and I believe we most likely are), then the deceptions will only intensify and it will be very easy to be seduced and duped. Only by clinging to Him who is Truth will we not be completely hornswoggled.

I don't see any contradiction in trusting the Lord Jesus and investigating how these folks are lying to us. The numerous warnings in the Bible are to prevent us from being deceived. Unfortunately, only you and I take these warnings seriously.

Fauci paid the Chinese $Millions to investigate these Corona Bat-viruses, and we are supposed to believe that this was done in good faith? In the cause of research? There is nothing good with Covid and the WHO. That's like them saying, "we were only studying nuclear reactions, and never intended to make a bomb."

Pay no attention to what politicians say, only what they do. Don't believe liberal "fact-checkers" either. Trump is one of the few to come along and say what he means and mean what he says. That's why they all hate him. And why do they all hate him? "Orange Man bad. His tweets are really mean." Seriously? What do you prefer, the leader who insults you, or the leader who sweet talks you while stabbing you in the back?

[zeek]

https://apnews.com/article/mitch-mcc...45c733ee0dd725

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell congratulated Democrat Joe Biden as president-elect on Tuesday, saying the Electoral College “has spoken.”

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://apnews.com/article/mitch-mcc...45c733ee0dd725

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell congratulated Democrat Joe Biden as president-elect on Tuesday, saying the Electoral College “has spoken.”

But what will he do with Stephen Miller's alternate electors?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...nge-alive-post

[awareness]

Here's politics and the church :

In final years at Liberty, Falwell spent millions on pro-Trump causes

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/1...versity-444661

Proving : Falwell is a true head case. And ... Delusions attract delusions.

[zeek]

Black Churches Vandalized

Church vandalism exposes divisions over faith and politics in America



Does politics supersede religious beliefs for some in today's bitterly divided United States?



Vandalism at four downtown Washington churches after weekend rallies in support of Donald Trump have exposed rifts among people of faith as the nation confronts heavily charged post-election political divisions, Elana Schor reports.



The houses of worship that were vandalized included two historically Black churches where people ripped down Black Lives Matter banners. Video on social media showed one banner being burned, defacement that police say is being investigated as a possible hate crime.



Critically, it also raised questions among some pastors and members at the churches about why more fellow Christians were not speaking out against the attacks.



“When evangelicals can speak on behalf of unborn babies, can speak on behalf of law and order when it comes to white people and white property, but are silent when it comes to banners that proclaim ‘Black lives matter,’ the moral silence is stupefying,” said a former president of the NAACP and a member of one of the churches, Metropolitan A.M.E.



The tearing down of Black Lives Matter signs came after pro-Trump demonstrations in the capital that attracted a sizable number of Proud Boys, a neo-fascist group prone to violence. The protests were planned to bolster the president’s baseless claims of election fraud.

[Ohio]

The existence of "black churches" is inherently racist. Real churches are color blind, right?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The existence of "black churches" is inherently racist. Real churches are color blind, right?

I read something recently that I thought was good. It said that love is not actually blind - it sees all, but still chooses to love.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I read something recently that I thought was good. It said that love is not actually blind - it sees all, but still chooses to love.

I agree. Too many of these preachers (e.g. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, Raphael Warnock) in "black churches" seem totally void of love, and have merely become ministers of condemnation. (II Cor 11.13-15)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Black Churches Vandalized

The tearing down of Black Lives Matter signs came after pro-Trump demonstrations in the capital that attracted a sizable number of Proud Boys, a neo-fascist group prone to violence. The protests were planned to bolster the president’s baseless claims of election fraud.

When we do the "shoe is on the other foot" test, we must talk about a biased Press report here.

The heading claims that churches were vandalized. Actually no churches were vandalized, rather political signs were removed. Why would real churches have racist political signs on them? What if a church has "white lives matter" signs out front? Jesus said His house should be a house of prayer, not racism.

Then notice how a Trump rally becomes "neo-fascist." For months these fascists were burning and looting cities like NY, Portland, Seattle, etc. and these rioting anarchists were labeled "peaceful protesters." This is simply pure propaganda to create further racial divisions in America.

The fake Media truly is the enemy of the American people. I thought electing Biden was supposed to "unite us." I am old enough to remember Obama's many campaign speeches about creating a color-blind America. How did that work out?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When we do the "shoe is on the other foot" test, we must talk about a biased Press report here.

The heading claims that churches were vandalized. Actually no churches were vandalized, rather political signs were removed. Why would real churches have racist political signs on them? What if a church has "white lives matter" signs out front? Jesus said His house should be a house of prayer, not racism.

Then notice how a Trump rally becomes "neo-fascist." For months these fascists were burning and looting cities like NY, Portland, Seattle, etc. and these rioting anarchists were labeled "peaceful protesters." This is simply pure propaganda to create further racial divisions in America.

The fake Media truly is the enemy of the American people. I thought electing Biden was supposed to "unite us." I am old enough to remember Obama's many campaign speeches about creating a color-blind America. How did that work out?

Obama is a good hearted person. Trump is not.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The heading claims that churches were vandalized. Actually no churches were vandalized, rather political signs were removed. Why would real churches have racist political signs on them? What if a church has "white lives matter" signs out front? Jesus said His house should be a house of prayer, not racism.

So whats your definition of a real church? They cant be black?

If I went to your house and took out your garden and burned it, is that vandalism? would you report me? the sign was part of the building and was burned.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Obama is a good hearted person. Trump is not.

Are you now God? The Knower of hearts?

You think Obama is good because the Media treated him well, and treated Trump very badly. If Trump was so bad, why was he so respected during the top-rated show, The Apprentice? My son in Business School said it was one of his favorite and most informative "classes."

Don't believe me? Compare how Michele O. was treated compared to Melania T. It is the media which is not "good-hearted."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

So whats your definition of a real church? They cant be black?

If I went to your house and took out your garden and burned it, is that vandalism? would you report me? the sign was part of the building and was burned.

It's a racially charged political sign that has no place in the church. A racist church is not a church -- no Jew, no Gentile, no black, no yellow, no white. Put the shoe on the other foot. There should not be white churches or black churches.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you now God? The Knower of hearts?

Yes ................... yes. Any idiot can see the truth in it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes ................... yes. Any idiot can see the truth in it.

You mean any democratic socialist with TDS can see the truth in it. I understand.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's a racially charged political sign that has no place in the church. A racist church is not a church -- no Jew, no Gentile, no black, no yellow, no white. Put the shoe on the other foot. There should not be white churches or black churches.

So are you God now? Who can judge which churches are true and real? Jesus was a political insurgent- he turned those pharisees upside down and got crucified for it. I dont see any difference between what he preached and these churches standing for equal rights for African Americans.
You are like the Pharisees who dont allow Gentile churches. The reality is churches are made of different congregations, some colored, some not, some majority Asian, some mostly Black. Jesus was focused on allowing everyone to be welcome into his flock ans was talking about racial inequality. Ironically, you are the only racist one on here trying to support what those Proud boys did. You didnt answer my question about vandalism, so I guess you think people who worked hard on a sign, thats not their property.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you now God? The Knower of hearts?

You think Obama is good because the Media treated him well, and treated Trump very badly. If Trump was so bad, why was he so respected during the top-rated show, The Apprentice? My son in Business School said it was one of his favorite and most informative "classes."

Don't believe me? Compare how Michele O. was treated compared to Melania T. It is the media which is not "good-hearted."

Fox News said that Melania dressed classy while they made fun of Michele O.
Maybe you should stop listening to your alt right son, who also happens to feel demasculinized and threatened by trans individuals taking away his sports fame and glory.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You mean any democratic socialist with TDS can see the truth in it. I understand.

Just because you are democrat doesnt mean you are socialist.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Maybe you should stop listening to your alt right son.

Apologize for calling him alt-right! He's not even conservative.

And that's why all democrats are becoming socialists. They have moved so far left of center, that the center looks like alt-right.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

So are you God now? Who can judge which churches are true and real? Jesus was a political insurgent- he turned those pharisees upside down and got crucified for it. I dont see any difference between what he preached and these churches standing for equal rights for African Americans.

Jesus never was political. He told Pilate His kingdom was not of this world.
Jesus exposed the religious hypocrisy that prevented others from entering His kingdom.

And don't you have your own Forum to post on? Oh, I get it, you don't want "equal" rights, you demand "special" rights.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You mean any democratic socialist with TDS can see the truth in it. I understand.

Deflection doesn't change the FACT that Obama is a good hearted person and Trump is not.

[zeek]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55326461

Gay conversion therapy: Hundreds of religious leaders call for ban
By Harry Farley

More than 370 religious leaders from around the world are calling for a ban on conversion therapy - the attempt to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

The signatories to the declaration represent all the world's major faiths and many are known LGBT advocates.

They include South African cleric Archbishop Desmond Tutu and former Chief Rabbi of Ireland David Rosen.

Other religious figures said a ban could risk criminalising pastors.

A declaration calling for a ban will be launched at a conference sponsored by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO) on Wednesday.

The Anglican Bishop of Liverpool, Paul Bayes, and Mary McAleese, the former president of Ireland, are also among those who have signed the declaration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/w...py-pledge.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/16/world...gbr/index.html

[zeek]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opin...us/3876042001/

God help us: We're losing our religion and filling the void with politics
Opinion: Early Christians would rather be thrown to Roman lions than reject their Savior. Now, we're supposed to hold that same devotion to politics.

Not long ago, the religious right was the bugaboo of the American left. Whether it was the Moral Majority in the 1980s or the Christian Coalition in the 1990s, Democrats warned of a right-wing theocracy if churchgoing Republicans seized the levers of power.

The good news for secular types is that this once-powerful voting bloc is hard to find these days. That’s also the bad news.

You might not have liked the Christian right, but you’re really going to hate the post-Christian right.

Americans are losing their religion
Secularism continues its march. Over the last two decades, Americans belonging to a church, synagogue or mosque fell from 70% to 50%. Gallup found that adults declaring no religious affiliation has more than doubled.

Nature abhors a vacuum, not only in the physical world but also in the spiritual. If people aren’t getting meaning from their local religious community, they’ll seek it elsewhere.


Increasingly, Americans seek fulfilment in politics of all things. Count the Arizona Republican Party among its devotees.

Some are willing to die for their party
This week, a right-wing activist with a very sketchy past claimed, “I am willing to give my life for this fight”; the “fight” being to reverse Joe Biden’s victory in November.

Most rolled their eyes, but the state GOP agreed that we should seek martyrdom to usher in the Kingdom of Don. “He is,” the party's official account posted on Twitter. “Are you?”


In the early days of Christianity, believers would rather be thrown to Roman lions than reject their Savior. Now, we’re supposed to hold that same devotion so some flawed politician can have four more years in Washington, D.C.

Call me old-fashioned, but I’ll stick with the Trinity over Trump.

We've replaced prayer with protest
I follow this stuff for a living, but let’s be real. Politics is a grubby business in which amoral charlatans use fear and false promises to gain earthly power. They come back a few years later, blaming the other side for their lack of results.


In a republic, it’s a necessary evil. But politics is a terrible religion.

This divinization of democracy is sprouting up all over. Instead of spending Sunday at church, Republicans are flying flags in a “Trump Train.” Instead of listening to a sermon on racial tolerance, Democrats are accosting diners at sidewalk cafés. Instead of resting on the Sabbath, we waste our weekends cursing strangers on social media.


We’ve replaced prayer with protest then wonder why everyone is so angry.

Conspiracy theories rule both sides
Seeking meaning in politics is one thing, but seeking transcendence is even worse. Some have spent their lockdown immersing themselves in bizarre conspiracy theories.

Before the Kraken, there was QAnon. Once you’ve convinced yourself that a cabal of Satan-worshipping pedophiles is plotting against Donald Trump, it’s easier to buy that Venezuelan communists hacked Dominion voting machines in Gila Bend.

Don’t be so quick to point fingers and laugh, Trump haters. “The Resistance” insisted Vladimir Putin hacked the 2016 election and that the White House was stealing mailboxes to rig this year’s. Prominent studies have shown that the far right and the far left share an equal enthusiasm for the conspiratorial.

Why this trend is likely to continue
Barring a new Great Awakening, the trend toward secularism is likely to continue. As we’ve seen, this doesn’t mean we’ll see a growing emphasis on reason and scientific materialism. It just means new religions, unmoored from tradition, humility and grace.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apologize for calling him alt-right! He's not even conservative.

And that's why all democrats are becoming socialists. They have moved so far left of center, that the center looks like alt-right.

Just returning the favor. You should apologize for implying that I would cheat on my wife since I’m bisexual and she is bisexual.

I think the same can be true. the alt right have moved so off the chart, that the center looks socialist.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jesus never was political. He told Pilate His kingdom was not of this world.
Jesus exposed the religious hypocrisy that prevented others from entering His kingdom.

And don't you have your own Forum to post on? Oh, I get it, you don't want "equal" rights, you demand "special" rights.

You’re demanding special rights too with your All Lives Matter
Pilate and the Romans loved to crucify any political threats (which also happen to be religious threats- Jesus and his followers were being a religious and political threat. It’s too bad the Bible is the Media and you’ve fallen for the Fake News that the Jews were to blame. Arent you the one being religiously hypocritical by sayig which churches are true or not?

which forum are you talking about? I see that you dont want me here?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by zeek

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55326461

Gay conversion therapy: Hundreds of religious leaders call for ban
By Harry Farley

More than 370 religious leaders from around the world are calling for a ban on conversion therapy - the attempt to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

The signatories to the declaration represent all the world's major faiths and many are known LGBT advocates.

They include South African cleric Archbishop Desmond Tutu and former Chief Rabbi of Ireland David Rosen.

Other religious figures said a ban could risk criminalising pastors.

A declaration calling for a ban will be launched at a conference sponsored by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO) on Wednesday.

The Anglican Bishop of Liverpool, Paul Bayes, and Mary McAleese, the former president of Ireland, are also among those who have signed the declaration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/w...py-pledge.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/16/world...gbr/index.html

It’s time we criminalize pastors who do conversion therapy that lead to suicidality of innocents. Finally some religious people doing what is right.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

You’re demanding special rights too with your All Lives Matter

All Lives Matter (including the unborn) is equal rights for all.

Black Lives Matter is special rights for the select few.

Is that too hard to understand?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I think the same can be true. the alt right have moved so off the chart, that the center looks socialist.

To make your theories work, we need to rewrite history and destroy our existing culture. Simple history explains which version is true. I'm old enough to remember what liberalism is. Today's new Left seriously scare classic liberals, and that's why the Democratic Party now has two distinct factions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

It’s time we criminalize pastors who do conversion therapy that lead to suicidality of innocents. Finally some religious people doing what is right.

Such a perfect example of today's agnostic Marxist Socialist -- "it's time we criminalize pastors" because we don't like their teachings.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Such a perfect example of today's agnostic Marxist Socialist -- "it's time we criminalize pastors" because we don't like their teachings.

They’re not teachings. They’re therapies that dont work. It’s kind of ironic you would support a therapy that leads to suicide and deaths of people already are living but you adamantly support the life of unborns.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To make your theories work, we need to rewrite history and destroy our existing culture. Simple history explains which version is true. I'm old enough to remember what liberalism is. Today's new Left seriously scare classic liberals, and that's why the Democratic Party now has two distinct factions.

History is happening right now. Every second that goes by is history. I think thats the issue, you grew up in an era where there was the Red Scare.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All Lives Matter (including the unborn) is equal rights for all.

Black Lives Matter is special rights for the select few.

Is that too hard to understand?

Would you say separate but equal is “special”?

All lives Matter is demanding special rights for the privileged white. Just admit it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Deflection doesn't change the FACT that Obama is a good hearted person and Trump is not.

Sounds a little idolatrous to me. You adore Obama and close your mind to his incredibly divisive and corrupt policies. Ever since Obama, starting with Henry Louis Gates and Trayvon Martin, then Michael Brown and Freddie Gray, this country has a serious racial divide fueled by Obama himself, yet he promised to give us a color blind country. Totally deceptive.

Trump, on the other hand, has principles. He says what he means and means what he says. He keeps his promises, and fights for the values of those who voted for him. His economic plans brought real gains to the middle class, doing more for all minorities than Obama ever did.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

They’re not teachings. They’re therapies that dont work. It’s kind of ironic you would support a therapy that leads to suicide and deaths of people already are living but you adamantly support the life of unborns.

Ministers provide teachings. Therapists provide therapy.

If you hate these therapies, get the Psychiatrists and Psychologists to change them.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ministers provide teachings. Therapists provide therapy.

If you hate these therapies, get the Psychiatrists and Psychologists to change them.

It’s already illegal in the state of California for marriage and family therapists to do conversion therapy. The problem is that nonlicensed therapists including pastors are providing the therapies themselves, secretly, underground. So there’s no law banning these. Especially when you have a high demand of parents wanting their kids to not be gay.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

History is happening right now. Every second that goes by is history. I think thats the issue, you grew up in an era where there was the Red Scare.

We are living during the greatest Red Scare there ever was, and that is not Russia. China owns the Democrats, the Media, the NBA, and Big Tech.


Real history is a record of what occurred, not a re-writing of what we wanted to happen.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds a little idolatrous to me. You adore Obama and close your mind to his incredibly divisive and corrupt policies. Ever since Obama, starting with Henry Louis Gates and Trayvon Martin, then Michael Brown and Freddie Gray, this country has a serious racial divide fueled by Obama himself, yet he promised to give us a color blind country. Totally deceptive.

Trump, on the other hand, has principles. He says what he means and means what he says. He keeps his promises, and fights for the values of those who voted for him. His economic plans brought real gains to the middle class, doing more for all minorities than Obama ever did.

But why is it I’m finding a harder time finding a job under the Trump administration even though my parents are middle class? “fake news” did not exist until Trump coined the term. That became divisive.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are living during the greatest Red Scare there ever was, and that is not Russia. China owns the Democrats, the Media, the NBA, and Big Tech.


Real history is a record of what occurred, not a re-writing of what we wanted to happen.

Ohio, the level of your paranoia.. I would have you admitted to the psych ward.

[Sons to Glory!]

This conversation makes me, once again, think of this grand song:

I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
how He will claim his earthly heritage,
how satisfy the needs and aspirations
of east and west, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
and He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
and some glad day His sun will shine in splendour
when He the Saviour, Saviour of the world, is known.

We need the Savior - only He can!

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All Lives Matter (including the unborn) is equal rights for all.

Black Lives Matter is special rights for the select few.

Is that too hard to understand?

No that is too simplistic. I think you should try harder to understand.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...l-lives-matter

“If all lives mattered, we wouldn’t have to say Black lives matter,” Dr. Hobson adds. “Black Lives Matter is a recognition that Black people do not have the same rights.”

https://www.wellandgood.com/all-live...r-harmful/amp/

you know who else has special rights? the antimaskers in Trump rallies

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

“If all lives mattered, we wouldn’t have to say Black lives matter,” Dr. Hobson adds. “Black Lives Matter is a recognition that Black people do not have the same rights.”

So you like science, right? Here's a question no one has been able to effectively answer: Is there a peer reviewed, empirical study that clearly demonstrates widespread systemic racism in America's police departments? There is is a lot of anecdotal evidence being presented to support that claim, as the basis for the whole BLM movement. (if you looked at the thread regarding BLM awhile ago, there is a peer reviewed, empirical study that concludes there is NOT widespread systemic racism in America's police departments) The public has been told that this BLM conjecture is a solid fact over and over and over, to the point that everyone goes along with it, and now it seems most believe it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So you like science, right? Here's a question no one has been able to effectively answer: Is there a peer reviewed, empirical study that clearly demonstrates widespread systemic racism in America's police departments? There is is a lot of anecdotal evidence being presented to support that claim, as the basis for the whole BLM movement. (if you looked at the thread regarding BLM awhile ago, there is a peer reviewed, empirical study that concludes there is NOT widespread systemic racism in America's police departments) The public has been told that this BLM conjecture is a solid fact over and over and over, to the point that everyone goes along with it, and now it seems most believe it.

Correct. All of the honest facts show us that racism in America is a manufactured crisis. I have yet to see one shred of evidence that Trump is racist.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So you like science, right? Here's a question no one has been able to effectively answer: Is there a peer reviewed, empirical study that clearly demonstrates widespread systemic racism in America's police departments? There is is a lot of anecdotal evidence being presented to support that claim, as the basis for the whole BLM movement. (if you looked at the thread regarding BLM awhile ago, there is a peer reviewed, empirical study that concludes there is NOT widespread systemic racism in America's police departments) The public has been told that this BLM conjecture is a solid fact over and over and over, to the point that everyone goes along with it, and now it seems most believe it.

Are you sure you want to go down this route? haha I studied Criminology in my college years and have tons of articles and books, all empirically based, that points to widespread systemic racism at every level- the courts, police, jails, mental health, physical health, SES, employment, broken window theory and neighborhoods

https://mitpress.mit.edu/blog/articl...social-justice

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Correct. All of the honest facts show us that racism in America is a manufactured crisis. I have yet to see one shred of evidence that Trump is racist.

You’re a lost cause. Trump keeps calling it the China virus and he called Kamala, Pocahontas.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b09071f69b9261

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...racism-history

I honsetly dont think you’ll read these and even so, you’ll believe them to be “fake news”. So whats the point in changing your mind?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

You’re a lost cause. Trump keeps calling it the China virus and he called Kamala, Pocahontas.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b09071f69b9261

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...racism-history

I honsetly dont think you’ll read these and even so, you’ll believe them to be “fake news”. So whats the point in changing your mind?

I see White Supremacist's defending against racism in America.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Are you sure you want to go down this route? haha I studied Criminology in my college years and have tons of articles and books, all empirically based, that points to widespread systemic racism at every level- the courts, police, jails, mental health, physical health, SES, employment, broken window theory and neighborhoods

https://mitpress.mit.edu/blog/articl...social-justice

It sounds like substance, but is it? Show me one that demonstrates clear, empirical evidence, that is peer reviewed. That's all I'm asking. Don't say this shows that or some person said this or that, show me the real deal that clearly shows it . . . not a bunch of smoke: clear, peer-reviewed empirical evidence of widespread, systemic racism in America's police departments is what we're talking about.

You might be able to produce that study, but so far, no one else has . . . at least to my knowledge.

With the massive bruhaha over this, there should be at least one of these studies around . . right?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It sounds like substance, but is it? Show me one that demonstrates clear, empirical evidence, that is peer reviewed. That's all I'm asking. Don't say this shows that or some person said this or that, show me the real deal that clearly shows it . . . not a bunch of smoke: clear, peer-reviewed empirical evidence of widespread, systemic racism in America's police departments is what we're talking about.

You might be able to produce that study, but so far, no one else has . . . at least to my knowledge.

With the massive bruhaha over this, there should be at least one of these studies around . . right?

Since you were too lazy to go theough the articles listed in the link here is ONE:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...3D9m7TBj3aRT4J

and Another ONE:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...3DPal1DGD0VDsJ

btw, both of these are peer reviewed. I’m not sayinf that the entire police departments are racis. I’m saying that some police are untrained which perpetuates racist behaviors from cops. Of course there are good cops. But the fact that this is happening at all is the issue.

I need to find that book I had from school when I return home to my parents ffor the holidays. then you will really believe that there is systemic racism.

Tbh, there are both naturalistic and quantitative research. Some sociological research depends on the first one. If you are not willing to listen to “smoke screens”, or naturalistic research, I cant help you there. Not everything can be quantified. Quantified research costs a lot of money. Just because it’s a person’s testimony, doesnt make it any less real. I’ve worked with African American clients. Why do they have to tell me that they were taught at a young age to be more careful than the white kids? they wouldnt need to if there wasnt any disparity in racist violence in society. If you can come up with a way to do research with numbers regarding sociological phenomenon.

I dont what you want. Do you want one with statistics mathematical equations?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Since you were too lazy to go theough the articles listed in the link here is ONE:

Yes, please pre-digest my food for me. (I know, it takes a little more work, but you see, I didn't have my teeth in . . . )

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, please pre-digest my food for me. (I know, it takes a little more work, but you see, I didn't have my teeth in . . . )

She really, really, is sweet like that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

She really, really, is sweet like that.

Yellow supremacist.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

You’re a lost cause. Trump keeps calling it the China virus and he called Kamala, Pocahontas.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b09071f69b9261

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...racism-history

I honsetly dont think you’ll read these and even so, you’ll believe them to be “fake news”. So whats the point in changing your mind?

You're a lost cause who can't even get your facts straight. Trump called Sen Warren "Pocahontas" because she defrauded her way into her political career lieing about her racial minority status. She should have resigned in shame, but of course Democrats have no shame. Harvard still boasts that they had the first Native American professor. Total fraud. Then you call Trump a racist for exposing her hypocrisy. Oh the irony oozing from your keyboard.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Are you sure you want to go down this route? haha I studied Criminology in my college years ...

If I were you, I would demand my tuition money back.

You remind me of AOC who got a degree in Economics, but doesn't know the difference between a tax incentive and real money.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It sounds like substance, but is it? Show me one that demonstrates clear, empirical evidence, that is peer reviewed. That's all I'm asking. Don't say this shows that or some person said this or that, show me the real deal that clearly shows it . . . not a bunch of smoke: clear, peer-reviewed empirical evidence of widespread, systemic racism in America's police departments is what we're talking about.

You might be able to produce that study, but so far, no one else has . . . at least to my knowledge.

With the massive bruhaha over this, there should be at least one of these studies around . . right?

Exactly. Where's the data?

Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are criminology stats."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I were you, I would demand my tuition money back.

You remind me of AOC who got a degree in Economics, but doesn't know the difference between a tax incentive and real money.

Talking about correct data, google the phrase and learn something.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I were you, I would demand my tuition money back.

You remind me of AOC who got a degree in Economics, but doesn't know the difference between a tax incentive and real money.

So funny brother, I was so smart I had a full ride tuition scholarship.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You're a lost cause who can't even get your facts straight. Trump called Sen Warren "Pocahontas" because she defrauded her way into her political career lieing about her racial minority status. She should have resigned in shame, but of course Democrats have no shame. Harvard still boasts that they had the first Native American professor. Total fraud. Then you call Trump a racist for exposing her hypocrisy. Oh the irony oozing from your keyboard.

Nevertheless you just proved my point that Trump is racist. He still called someone Pocahontas. Maybe you should read up on the history of Pocahontas. You’ll learn a thing or two (and I’m not talking about John Smith’s diary).

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Exactly. Where's the data?

Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are criminology stats."

I provided the articles. Clearly you dont read.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yellow supremacist.

Hey Awareness, lets give it up to Ohio, his IQ just helped him to coin a new racial word to call me. Btw Ohio, just for your information, I was born on America soil.
Maybe I should call you White Peril. No White Pearl, because you are one in a million.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

So funny brother, I was so smart I had a full ride tuition scholarship.

Affirmative action?

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Nevertheless you just proved my point that Trump is racist. He still called someone Pocahontas.

Hypocrisy defines your double standards. You reserve the right to label others, but cry foul when treated the same. Sounds like a privileged class.

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I provided the articles. Clearly you dont read.

Correct. Never follow your rabbit holes.

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Hey Awareness, lets give it up to Ohio, his IQ just helped him to coin a new racial word to call me. Btw Ohio, just for your information, I was born on America soil. Maybe I should call you White Peril. No White Pearl, because you are one in a million.

You and awareness, our moderator, started the name-calling, and then act all out-raged, clamoring for victimhood.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Affirmative action?
Hypocrisy defines your double standards. You reserve the right to label others, but cry foul when treated the same. Sounds like a privileged class.
Correct. Never follow your rabbit holes.
You and awareness, our moderator, started the name-calling, and then act all out-raged, clamoring for victimhood.

No, I transferred from another school and had 3.9 GPA. And the school I transferred to had a lot of Asians; I’m sure they didnt want another asian right? Let me remind you... I believe you started the name calling back on the lgbtq threads. lets start a game and see how many names you’ve called me: nazi, yellow supremist, anti-Christian, “special”. You’ve called Awareness Wiley Coyote.

the reason you dont want to read is because you dont want to change your worldview and you are afraid you may be wrong. Methinks you’ll be outraged even more. Anger is the secondary emotion to fear. Mark Twain- “It is wiser to find out than suppose”.

All your posts are just a bunch of projection about yourself. I think you are a victim also to your self sabotaging thinking. You can call me all you want and I’ll feel sorry for you.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Since you were too lazy to go theough the articles listed in the link here is ONE:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...3D9m7TBj3aRT4J

and Another ONE:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...3DPal1DGD0VDsJ

btw, both of these are peer reviewed. I’ve worked with African American clients. Why do they have to tell me that they were taught at a young age to be more careful than the white kids? they wouldnt need to if there wasnt any disparity in racist violence in society.

So the two links you provided go to pages with numerous citations. I looked at the top ones, and they don't appear to be peer reviewed studies, at least I don't see it mentioned.

And regarding black clients you've had who were taught to be careful, that doesn't prove widespread systemic racism in American police departments, does it? Look, no one is saying there's not racism out there among police, but if it was so overwhelmingly present, shouldn't it be easy to quantify and show? And I understand some of the difficulties in doing that, but to base a whole movement which seeks to turn everything upside-down based on anecdotal evidence and feelings is not prudent. And I think it's fine for police departments to closely review their practices, but things should be done based on real, solid measurements - not a bunch of emotional knee-jerk actions crying louder and louder for change for change's sake. (which is what Marxists and anarchists like to have, to then take advantage of the turmoil)

So here is a peer reviewed article that was in the National Academy of Science (NAS), so it is well pedigreed: https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877

This paper caused a debate about the abstract article the authors wrote, and there were corrections made to that summary by the authors. Here's the NAS discussion about that correction: Correction Discussion And even though there was a correction about the paper's summary statement, what this correction article shows is that there hasn't been any clear, quantified, peer reviewed studies with solid empirical evidence that clearly demonstrates there is widespread, systemic racism in America's police departments.

So in fairness, there is no clear data showing there isn't this kind of racism, but there also isn't clear data showing there is! (the point being is it's not easy to demonstrate factually, otherwise it would have been done) Do we really want to get all in the tank then for "defunding the police" and completely turning everything inside-out over something that has no solid evidence?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So the two links you provided go to pages with numerous citations. I looked at the top ones, and they don't appear to be peer reviewed studies, at least I don't see it mentioned.

And regarding black clients you've had who were taught to be careful, that doesn't prove widespread systemic racism in American police departments, does it? Look, no one is saying there's not racism out there among police, but if it was so overwhelmingly present, shouldn't it be easy to quantify and show? And I understand some of the difficulties in doing that, but to base a whole movement which seeks to turn everything upside-down based on anecdotal evidence and feelings is not prudent. And I think it's fine for police departments to closely review their practices, but things should be done based on real, solid measurements - not a bunch of emotional knee-jerk actions crying louder and louder for change for change's sake. (which is what Marxists and anarchists like to have, to then take advantage of the turmoil)

So here is a peer reviewed article that was in the National Academy of Science (NAS), so it is well pedigreed: https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877

This paper caused a debate about the abstract article the authors wrote, and there were corrections made to that summary by the authors. Here's the NAS discussion about that correction: Correction Discussion And even though there was a correction about the paper's summary statement, what this correction article shows is that there hasn't been any clear, quantified, peer reviewed studies with solid empirical evidence that clearly demonstrates there is widespread, systemic racism in America's police departments.

So in fairness, there is no clear data showing there isn't this kind of racism, but there also isn't clear data showing there is! (the point being is it's not easy to demonstrate factually, otherwise it would have been done) Do we really want to get all in the tank then for "defunding the police" and completely turning everything inside-out over something that has no solid evidence?

Ur right, its a shame that I dont have access to peer reviewed articles anymore. I’m going to have to ask for access to the database in my graduate school. Until then, I’ll have some more decent articles for you.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1

I think the real issue is you are based on logic, not emotion. I’m the opposite. When I hear stories of five year old African American kids’ dad’s in jail, and single moms are raising these kids, and overwhelmingly more Hispanics and African Americans in group homes, I have to stop and wonder why that is. In grad School, I studied the Chicago area, the further away you are from the city, the more suburbs, the more white privileged classes. The blacks are in downtown and they have no upward mobility (besides a few like Michael Jackson, Michael Jordon, Obama). They live in the ghettos because financially, they cant get out. their ancestors were poor to begin with, the schools there are not the best, higher dropout rates, lesser economic options (except for sports and if you have some sort of talent). It’s a generational vicious cycle. Due to being poor, they have to do criminal activites to get by, which lands them in jail and prison Plus, community respurces and mental health resources are few and unhelpful.Some juveniles have to resort to gangbanging to get by, which lands them in foster care. I had a group home black kid once tell me he wants so much to help his mother but he has a criminal record and have to make ends meet by being in a gang.

There’s a pattern and you cant ignore it. Aftican Americans make up a large proportion of the homeless and those below the poverty line, as well as jail sustem. They also happen to have more chances to contract covid due to living in poor crowded cities. Capitalism doesnt help them

My question to you is how do you go about helping these people with these societal barriers with just stats and quantifying variables? some of the funds that go to stopping and frisking should help these people seek employment and housing

But since you are into stats, take a look at this:
https://www.epi.org/blog/racial-disp...rowth-in-2019/

How do we change it?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Hey Awareness, lets give it up to Ohio, his IQ just helped him to coin a new racial word to call me. Btw Ohio, just for your information, I was born on America soil.
Maybe I should call you White Peril. No White Pearl, because you are one in a million.

This is a conversation between a gay person and a straight person. I see what's really going on.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

This is a conversation between a gay person and a straight person. I see what's really going on.

Finally!!!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

My question to you is how do you go about helping these people with these societal barriers with just stats and quantifying variables? some of the funds that go to stopping and frisking should help these people seek employment and housing

But since you are into stats, take a look at this:
https://www.epi.org/blog/racial-disp...rowth-in-2019/

How do we change it?

Interesting articles. Look, I'm certainly not saying police are perfect. They are human and are influenced by many things. One is that blacks and hispanics statistically commit more crimes than whites. And in certain urban areas, this number goes way up. Now does that make it right that they stop someone just because of color? Of course not. And in many of the things I've read, police who are black or hispanic stop even more minorities proportionately! So it's hard to call that racist, right?

I do feel for issues with minorities regarding income, etc. I grew up in a very bigoted home (my grandfather had been in the KKK), but rebelled against that and had a couple very close black friends as a teenager. We had a wonderful time together (did some interesting role-reversals to play jokes on others, but that's another story) and I stayed with their families in "the projects" for some periods of time. Due to financial issues I later lived in a couple slum areas in different parts of the country, and got to experience things firsthand - like being mugged, twice. (then I received grants to go to college . . .) This gives me something of a unique perspective that many whites might not have.

But the supposed cure so far has been for government to throw more money and onerous legislation at the problem, which makes much of it worse in my opinion. Doing this is an emotional reaction to the issue, and it makes people think we are doing something to fix it. So far, to me, the federal government hasn't demonstrated it can do this sort of thing effectively. But something gets done, politicians get elected, and people feel good about it . . . at least until they see it doesn't work, then they want government to do more about it. The numbers spent on the "war on poverty" over five decades are absolutely staggering!

So I see the same thing about to happen with the whole supposedly widespread systemic police racism thing. Government will get bigger and more money will be thrown at it and people will feel good, at least for awhile . . .

[UntoHim]

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