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Old 10-03-2020, 03:01 PM   #1
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Default Things Learned from LGBTQ+ Discussions

I'm taking down this starting post, because after rereading it, I decided to edit it a bit. I'll repost sometime Sunday after I consider & pray.
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Last edited by Sons to Glory!; 10-03-2020 at 06:57 PM. Reason: Clarifying & softening
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Old 10-04-2020, 05:45 PM   #2
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Default LBGTQ garbage

I'm itching to drop another bomb in support of the LGBTQ.

But ... it prolly wouldn't do any good for Bible literalists out here, who consider God to consider it an abomination.

So I won't criticize God, even if He deserves it. I'll hold it.
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Old 10-04-2020, 09:47 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I'm itching to drop another bomb in support of the LGBTQ.

But ... it prolly wouldn't do any good for Bible literalists out here, who consider God to consider it an abomination.

So I won't criticize God, even if He deserves it. I'll hold it.
Perhaps some introspection and self criticism is in order.

Or perhaps you are just hard of hearing.

Now I understand why the Spirit continually asked, "he who has an ear to hear?"
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Old 10-04-2020, 10:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

Study: LGBTQ people nearly 4 times as likely to be victims of violent crime than non-LGBTQ individuals

https://www.alternet.org/2020/10/stu...q-individuals/
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Old 10-05-2020, 07:44 AM   #5
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Study: LGBTQ people nearly 4 times as likely to be victims of violent crime than non-LGBTQ individuals
Hate Hoax: Prosecutors Charge LGBT Activist with Burning Down Own Home with Pets Inside

Michigan prosecutors allege Nikki Joly, a longtime LGBT activist, set fire to her home and killed her pets due to resentment from subsiding controversy over the enactment of nondiscrimination legislation she supported.
"The Detroit News reported Monday that law enforcement charged Joly, a transgender man from Jackson, Michigan, who burned down her own home, killing five pets inside, in what was initially investigated by the FBI as an alleged hate crime in 2017. The newspaper, citing two individuals who worked alongside Joly at St. Johns United Church of Christ, where the Jackson Pride Center is based, reported that Jolly, 54, had become “frustrated the controversy over gay rights had died down with the passage of the nondiscrimination law.”
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Old 10-05-2020, 05:02 PM   #6
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I'm taking down this starting post, because after rereading it, I decided to edit it a bit. I'll repost sometime Sunday after I consider & pray.
I've been thinking of posting my thoughts on the OT verses against homosexuality on this thread. What do you think?
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Old 10-05-2020, 05:34 PM   #7
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I've been thinking of posting my thoughts on the OT verses against homosexuality on this thread. What do you think?
Well . . . I suppose. I started this thread to post things we've learned about LGBTQ+, but haven't had the time or inclination to repost (as said, I didn't like the exact tone of the first thing I put on here, so I took it down).

So since we might not have to be so "sensitive" on this thread . . . let 'er rip!
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Old 10-05-2020, 06:53 PM   #8
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Well . . . I suppose. I started this thread to post things we've learned about LGBTQ+, but haven't had the time or inclination to repost (as said, I didn't like the exact tone of the first thing I put on here, so I took it down).

So since we might not have to be so "sensitive" on this thread . . . let 'er rip!
I am seriously surprised at the lack of concern about the dangers of trans on Title 9 women's sports. The world has never seen a trans movement, and is sorely unprepared for the consequences. If enabled by the courts, the trans movement will destroy every historical separation between the genders.

No more girls sports. No more girls schools. No more girls clothing stores. All of these are binary sexist and must be torn down. Consider the consequences! Parents will no longer be able to protect their daughters from predators. And guaranteed we will have predatorial trans opportunists. All protected by law.
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Old 10-05-2020, 07:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: Things Learned from LGBTQ+ Discussions

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I've been thinking of posting my thoughts on the OT verses against homosexuality on this thread. What do you think?
Awareness, let's hear it.
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Old 10-05-2020, 10:18 PM   #10
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Ok I have restored the garbage posts that were made on the other thread over here on this one. Continue on.....I guess.
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Old 10-05-2020, 11:09 PM   #11
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Awareness, let's hear it.
Oh my goodness Terry! My thoughts won't be liked very much. But I think I can use OT books to prove my point, for whatever that's worth.
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Old 10-06-2020, 11:35 AM   #12
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From Serenity Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness
So how many out here can say "I'm with Serenity?" Cuz if we're with her then, her wish is OUR command, and maybe she'll leave it open for her desired ones, in and out of the LC, to come and find acceptance.

What say ye?
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I'm with Serenity on what matters - Christ in us, the hope of glory!
Refresh my memory, or correct it. Is that a Jesus saying, that I don't know about? Did I miss him saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself, but only if they have Christ in them?"
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Old 10-06-2020, 02:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Hate Hoax: Prosecutors Charge LGBT Activist with Burning Down Own Home with Pets Inside

Michigan prosecutors allege Nikki Joly, a longtime LGBT activist, set fire to her home and killed her pets due to resentment from subsiding controversy over the enactment of nondiscrimination legislation she supported.
"The Detroit News reported Monday that law enforcement charged Joly, a transgender man from Jackson, Michigan, who burned down her own home, killing five pets inside, in what was initially investigated by the FBI as an alleged hate crime in 2017. The newspaper, citing two individuals who worked alongside Joly at St. Johns United Church of Christ, where the Jackson Pride Center is based, reported that Jolly, 54, had become “frustrated the controversy over gay rights had died down with the passage of the nondiscrimination law.”
Ohio, for every of these articles you post, I can show you many more of innocent trans people who got murdered

https://transequality.org/blog/murde...t-seven-months

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ng_transgender

https://www.hrc.org/resources/violen...munity-in-2020

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...rnd/index.html
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Old 10-06-2020, 02:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Things Learned from LGBTQ+ Discussions

Quote:
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From Serenity Thread




Refresh my memory, or correct it. Is that a Jesus saying, that I don't know about? Did I miss him saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself, but only if they have Christ in them?"
Non sequitur - Serenity has Christ in her, does she not? (and of course we're to love all)
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Old 10-06-2020, 03:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: Things Learned from LGBTQ+ Discussions

I suppose the one thing we couldn't seem to get past on the other thread, was any admittance that homosexuality was off the original mark, and is therefore a sin.

To repeat myself, over & over, again & again, one more time . . . LGBTQ+ in my Bible is off the mark (i.e., "sin"). So are many things of the flesh and are talked about in scripture a lot. Man's heart is sick and produces all kinds of things which are off the mark. We need The Savior to bring us all back so we're able to fellowship freely with God and damaging things can be dealt with.

So the Bible calls us to agree with His word, confess and repent whenever fleshy things are manifested. I repeatedly used drunkenness as an example previously, because by itself drunkenness harms no one else (unless something else is committed while drunk). Yet it is called out as a sin in the Bible. If I'm a drinker, I may not like that scripture calls drunkenness a sin, yet there it is. So do I get scissors and cut out those verses? I could, but the truth is still the truth. If I'm an alcoholic, no one does me any favors by not calling it what it is!

So it seems to me, that to a homosexual who has also been regenerated with the life of Christ, there is at least some issue here. Just like if I'm a Christian who likes to get drunk. There's a damaging element, which our loving Father wants to save us from, but can't if we don't even admit that something's off. (it's a free will thing)

So can someone help me understand why it seems that Christian LGBTQ+ people don't seem to see that it's something even a little off the mark - just like other manifestations of the flesh?

Final thought here; I know that the sweeping tide of this age wants to say all kinds of things are perfectly okay or not even a tad bit off-the-mark, because it (apparently) hurts no one, etc. But the tide of the world is in contrast to the Word of God on pretty much everything!!! As Christians, we are called to be set apart from the world and to speak the truth in love to those in it.
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Old 10-06-2020, 03:30 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Non sequitur - Serenity has Christ in her, does she not? (and of course we're to love all)
Good answer.
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Old 10-06-2020, 06:47 PM   #17
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Ohio, for every of these articles you post, I can show you many more of innocent trans people who got murdered.
We live in an ugly world and people are being murdered all of the time. Look at how many have died in this summer of riots in many large cities.

If a straight white male or female is murdered, do we say they were murdered for who they were by birth? It seems as if no one cares.

All data can and will be politicized in this nasty age we live in. For example, thousands of black people are being killed in Chicago gang warfare, but the news only reports when a black person is killed by a police officer.

The media would love to give us the impression that gangs of evil straight people are hunting down LGBTQ every day, but that is not happening. Neither are the Police hunting down black people.
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Old 10-06-2020, 11:42 PM   #18
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The media would love to give us the impression that gangs of evil straight people are hunting down LGBTQ every day, but that is not happening. Neither are the Police hunting down black people.
Oh a media conspiracy. Let's go to a extreme. Let's blame the media for everything.

And LGBTQ everyday? Goodness, lets go to a extreme again.

The Pulse gay nightclub doesn't happen everyday.
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:22 AM   #19
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Oh a media conspiracy. Let's go to a extreme. Let's blame the media for everything.

And LGBTQ everyday? Goodness, lets go to a extreme again.

The Pulse gay nightclub doesn't happen everyday.
Facts, my friend. Why bring this up when the perp at Pulse was also gay?

It was Serenity who suggested that the LGBT community were a victimized class. How can we continue with that narrative when they are killing their own?

I mentioned before that the gay community had the highest economics among all the so-called "minorities." So how can they continually claim "victim" status?
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Old 10-07-2020, 03:27 AM   #20
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Facts, my friend. Why bring this up when the perp at Pulse was also gay?

It was Serenity who suggested that the LGBT community were a victimized class. How can we continue with that narrative when they are killing their own?

I mentioned before that the gay community had the highest economics among all the so-called "minorities." So how can they continually claim "victim" status?
Did you even look at the separate stories in my websites? Trans people are killed because they’re trans. White people are not killed because they’re white but because of other reasons.

Show me the highest economics claim you have and back it up with everything with evidence because me and my lgbtq friends are poor as hell due to little to no financial support from their families. and they make up a large percentage of the homeless population

And fact check, the gunman who was canvassing the nightclub only pretended to be gay. he was prob bisexual but he did cheat on his wife with other women. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna882571
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Old 10-07-2020, 03:33 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
I suppose the one thing we couldn't seem to get past on the other thread, was any admittance that homosexuality was off the original mark, and is therefore a sin.

To repeat myself, over & over, again & again, one more time . . . LGBTQ+ in my Bible is off the mark (i.e., "sin"). So are many things of the flesh and are talked about in scripture a lot. Man's heart is sick and produces all kinds of things which are off the mark. We need The Savior to bring us all back so we're able to fellowship freely with God and damaging things can be dealt with.

So the Bible calls us to agree with His word, confess and repent whenever fleshy things are manifested. I repeatedly used drunkenness as an example previously, because by itself drunkenness harms no one else (unless something else is committed while drunk). Yet it is called out as a sin in the Bible. If I'm a drinker, I may not like that scripture calls drunkenness a sin, yet there it is. So do I get scissors and cut out those verses? I could, but the truth is still the truth. If I'm an alcoholic, no one does me any favors by not calling it what it is!

So it seems to me, that to a homosexual who has also been regenerated with the life of Christ, there is at least some issue here. Just like if I'm a Christian who likes to get drunk. There's a damaging element, which our loving Father wants to save us from, but can't if we don't even admit that something's off. (it's a free will thing)

So can someone help me understand why it seems that Christian LGBTQ+ people don't seem to see that it's something even a little off the mark - just like other manifestations of the flesh?

Final thought here; I know that the sweeping tide of this age wants to say all kinds of things are perfectly okay or not even a tad bit off-the-mark, because it (apparently) hurts no one, etc. But the tide of the world is in contrast to the Word of God on pretty much everything!!! As Christians, we are called to be set apart from the world and to speak the truth in love to those in it.
It’s pretty simple. Comparing alcohol addiction to being gay or lesbian is not a good parallel comparison. Alcohol can lead to drunk driving, reckless behavior, even murder and violence. Being lgbtq in it of itself is not harmful. Just providing discomfort to white males. It is only harmful if the homosexual couple behaves like any other straight couple might- cheating, divorce etc. Have you guys ever divorced? Instead of throwing pebbles at lgbtq relationships that work and being jealous about it, why dont you guys just take a look at yourselves and your own relationships with your wives, ex-wives etc? Just take a look at this discussion right here;

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comm...tent=post_body

Gay and lesbian couples can have living successful relationships, based on prominent couple psychologist: https://www.gottman.com/about/resear...e-sex-couples/

Just like any other couple.
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
We live in an ugly world and people are being murdered all of the time. Look at how many have died in this summer of riots in many large cities.

If a straight white male or female is murdered, do we say they were murdered for who they were by birth? It seems as if no one cares.

All data can and will be politicized in this nasty age we live in. For example, thousands of black people are being killed in Chicago gang warfare, but the news only reports when a black person is killed by a police officer.

The media would love to give us the impression that gangs of evil straight people are hunting down LGBTQ every day, but that is not happening. Neither are the Police hunting down black people.
I think you should ask the FBI as they have the data. are you white and male and over age 50? because that can explain the discrepancy between what I experience and what you experience. Do you have a undergraduate and masters degree in Criminology? I do, and I can tell you that blacks are disproportionately in the prison system due to systemic racism from police officers to the legal system. And my professors are all elderly white male with pHD’s in this stuff. You can be against media but are you going to be against research, where data is collected not only from minorities but white straight males? and peer reviewed by academics, scientists, and all those experts. or is the Bible your only expert? God made us with a brain so we should use it to determine the facts and I have done that. I dont know about you.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/1582614001
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:18 AM   #23
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Did you even look at the separate stories in my websites? Trans people are killed because they’re trans. White people are not killed because they’re white but because of other reasons.

Show me the highest economics claim you have and back it up with everything with evidence because me and my lgbtq friends are poor as hell due to little to no financial support from their families. and they make up a large percentage of the homeless population

And fact check, the gunman who was canvassing the nightclub only pretended to be gay. he was prob bisexual but he did cheat on his wife with other women. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna882571
Things have dramatically changed in the 21st century. I really don't think it's fair to discuss the evils of past generations in order to judge today's people. The US has had more progress in this area than any other country on earth. For example, compare women's rights in the US with those in Muslim countries, and compare human rights with the Uyghers in China.

When social / economic researchers discuss minority statistics, they collect vast amounts of data, and then use average and median information. That doesn't mean there will be no poor people. But are you saying that you and your friends are abandoned minor children living as homeless?

Yes, it has been reported that the Pulse gunman was bisexual, who frequented gay bars, and cheated on his wife. Not a nice character.
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:24 AM   #24
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It’s pretty simple. Comparing alcohol addiction to being gay or lesbian is not a good parallel comparison. Alcohol can lead to drunk driving, reckless behavior, even murder and violence. Being lgbtq in it of itself is not harmful. Just providing discomfort to white males. It is only harmful if the homosexual couple behaves like any other straight couple might- cheating, divorce etc. Have you guys ever divorced? Instead of throwing pebbles at lgbtq relationships that work and being jealous about it, why dont you guys just take a look at yourselves and your own relationships with your wives, ex-wives etc? Just take a look at this discussion right here;

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comm...tent=post_body

Gay and lesbian couples can have living successful relationships, based on prominent couple psychologist: https://www.gottman.com/about/resear...e-sex-couples/

Just like any other couple.
I agree it's not a good comparison, and I think that a better one is a heterosexual couple in a committed relationship living together and having sex before marriage, or never getting married.

I like this as a example because its commonly done, still oftentimes looked down upon, and it also pertains directly to what has been called "the clobber verses".

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

The "fornicators" and the "sexually immoral" in those verses apply directly to me, as a heterosexual, in precisely the same way "practicing homosexuality" applies to a homosexual. There is no difference. Both refer to the acts rather than to who we are as a person. Both refer to the sexual acts, and not to feelings we wish we didn't have.

These verses "clobber" me just as much as they "clobber" an LGBTQ person.

So in my example of a committed heterosexual couple, all the same arguments apply:

1. we can adopt a child and help the world
2. we aren't hurting anyone
3. we skirt what the Bible says about sexual relations in/outside the bounds of marriage
4. it "feels right"
5. it involves sex
6. it involves love
7. it involves commitment

And yet, it's also a sin. We can have something that hits all the feel good markers, that we can point to all the reasons why no one should take issue with it, and yet, the Word calls it unrighteous and contrary to sound doctrine.

Do I like it? Not necessarily. Can it be called a "living successful relationship"? Yep. But do I know what the Bible says and thus not do it? Yep.

Would you call a heterosexual couple committed, living together, having sex, adopting a child, not hurting anyone, and yet never getting married......a sin?

There's no catch behind the question. It's a simple, straightforward yes or no, for anyone reading.
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:41 AM   #25
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I think you should ask the FBI as they have the data. are you white and male and over age 50?

because that can explain the discrepancy between what I experience and what you experience. Do you have a undergraduate and masters degree in Criminology? I do, and I can tell you that blacks are disproportionately in the prison system due to systemic racism from police officers to the legal system. And my professors are all elderly white male with pHD’s in this stuff.
This post has a little bait-n-switch in it, but I'll respond. And I'm trying to get past all of the racial, sexist, and age-related undertones in your post.

This current administration has done more in the area of criminal justice reform than any of its predecessors. Did you know that?

Also, it was Joe Biden's controversial 1994 Crime Bill that did more to incarcerate Blacks. E.g. Blacks using Crack Cocaine received far harsher sentences than Whites using Powdered Cocaine. Why was that? Many said it was racist. And Biden has a history of racist comments.

But everything flowed down hill from that legislation. If the police arrest more Blacks, and the courts sentence more Blacks -- all for using one drug rather than another -- shouldn't we identify the source of the problem, and correct it, rather than blaming the police, who merely are protecting their communities?

Consider Alice Johnson, who was convicted and sentenced in 1996 after Biden's infamous legislation was enacted. She received a horrible sentence, based on those legislated guidelines, as a first time offender. Obama refused to pardon her when lobbied by Kim Kardashian, but Trump did. What a wonderful story. But how many other "stories" are still in prison?

Let's correct bad legislation rather than condemn the Police. Agreed?
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Old 10-07-2020, 08:00 AM   #26
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You can be against media but are you going to be against research, where data is collected not only from minorities but white straight males? and peer reviewed by academics, scientists, and all those experts. or is the Bible your only expert? God made us with a brain so we should use it to determine the facts and I have done that. I dont know about you.
Did you say that you have a background in criminology?

Then you know that stats are always fair game for manipulation, right?

I have heard and read from many black scholars and speakers. Everyone of them point to the destruction of the nuclear family as the source of increased crime. A secondary source is Democratic policies in big cities, which do not have the benefits of two-party checks and balances. I'm sure you would be surprised to hear that Black families were far better off before civil rights legislation of the 60's -- less divorce, less poverty, better education, less unemployment, less crime. Read scholars like Thomas Sowell and Bob Woodson.

Without the nuclear family there is no father figure at home. There is little emphasis on education. The inner city schools are failures. Entire schools in Baltimore graduate kids who can't even read. No father figure at home and no education in school spell one thing -- crime. There are reasons why the highest density percentages of 911 calls come from inner city black neighborhoods. That means blacks are calling the police to help protect themselves from other blacks. That is not racism!
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Old 10-07-2020, 08:03 AM   #27
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I suppose the one thing we couldn't seem to get past on the other thread, was any admittance that homosexuality was off the original mark, and is therefore a sin.

To repeat myself, over & over, again & again, one more time . . . LGBTQ+ in my Bible is off the mark (i.e., "sin"). So are many things of the flesh and are talked about in scripture a lot. Man's heart is sick and produces all kinds of things which are off the mark. We need The Savior to bring us all back so we're able to fellowship freely with God and damaging things can be dealt with.

So the Bible calls us to agree with His word, confess and repent whenever fleshy things are manifested. I repeatedly used drunkenness as an example previously, because by itself drunkenness harms no one else (unless something else is committed while drunk). Yet it is called out as a sin in the Bible. If I'm a drinker, I may not like that scripture calls drunkenness a sin, yet there it is. So do I get scissors and cut out those verses? I could, but the truth is still the truth. If I'm an alcoholic, no one does me any favors by not calling it what it is!

So it seems to me, that to a homosexual who has also been regenerated with the life of Christ, there is at least some issue here. Just like if I'm a Christian who likes to get drunk. There's a damaging element, which our loving Father wants to save us from, but can't if we don't even admit that something's off. (it's a free will thing)

So can someone help me understand why it seems that Christian LGBTQ+ people don't seem to see that it's something even a little off the mark - just like other manifestations of the flesh?

Final thought here; I know that the sweeping tide of this age wants to say all kinds of things are perfectly okay or not even a tad bit off-the-mark, because it (apparently) hurts no one, etc. But the tide of the world is in contrast to the Word of God on pretty much everything!!! As Christians, we are called to be set apart from the world and to speak the truth in love to those in it.
First of all your post is off the mark. Alcohol is not off the mark in the Bible. Jesus turned the water into fine wine, and lots of it. And it makes glad the heart of man. Plus it was used as medicine back then.

Now, let's talk about the clobber verses in the OT, particularly in Leviticus 18. Can they be trusted? And even more, can the OT God be trusted?

The key book in the OT to determine that is, the book of Job. The book of Job depicts God as completely untrustworthy. I think it's so clear to anyone with an objective brain that there's no point to do a exegesis on the book, and how God acted in it ... or is depicted in it.

So if the book of Job depicts God as untrustworthy, how much can we trust the book of Leviticus ; a book that doesn't apply to us? That's why we ignore most of the book, except the clobber verses. We hetero's like those verses. But the food verses are ignored by Christians. The Jews still keep them. It's called keeping kosher. But even they don't stone people like Leviticus advises. That's because the OT God can't be trusted.

The OT God is off the mark.
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Old 10-07-2020, 08:45 AM   #28
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First of all your post is off the mark. Alcohol is not off the mark in the Bible. Jesus turned the water into fine wine, and lots of it. And it makes glad the heart of man. Plus it was used as medicine back then.

Now, let's talk about the clobber verses in the OT, particularly in Leviticus 18. Can they be trusted? And even more, can the OT God be trusted?

The key book in the OT to determine that is, the book of Job. The book of Job depicts God as completely untrustworthy. I think it's so clear to anyone with an objective brain that there's no point to do a exegesis on the book, and how God acted in it ... or is depicted in it.

So if the book of Job depicts God as untrustworthy, how much can we trust the book of Leviticus ; a book that doesn't apply to us? That's why we ignore most of the book, except the clobber verses. We hetero's like those verses. But the food verses are ignored by Christians. The Jews still keep them. It's called keeping kosher. But even they don't stone people like Leviticus advises. That's because the OT God can't be trusted.

The OT God is off the mark.
Hard to have effective fellowship with a Christian who doesn't seem to like or trust God, or believe in much of scripture!

I NEVER said alcohol was the problem and that's certainly a Strawman! But the excess thereof - getting drunk - that is what scripture talks about, right?

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I agree it's not a good comparison, and I think that a better one is a heterosexual couple in a committed relationship living together and having sex before marriage, or never getting married. Yes, this is a better comparison - thanks!

I like this as a example because its commonly done, still oftentimes looked down upon, and it also pertains directly to what has been called "the clobber verses".

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

The "fornicators" and the "sexually immoral" in those verses apply directly to me, as a heterosexual, in precisely the same way "practicing homosexuality" applies to a homosexual. There is no difference. Both refer to the acts rather than to who we are as a person. Both refer to the sexual acts, and not to feelings we wish we didn't have.

These verses "clobber" me just as much as they "clobber" an LGBTQ person.

So in my example of a committed heterosexual couple, all the same arguments apply:

1. we can adopt a child and help the world
2. we aren't hurting anyone
3. we skirt what the Bible says about sexual relations in/outside the bounds of marriage
4. it "feels right"
5. it involves sex
6. it involves love
7. it involves commitment

And yet, it's also a sin. We can have something that hits all the feel good markers, that we can point to all the reasons why no one should take issue with it, and yet, the Word calls it unrighteous and contrary to sound doctrine. AMEN

Do I like it? Not necessarily. Can it be called a "living successful relationship"? Yep. But do I know what the Bible says and thus not do it? Yep.

Would you call a heterosexual couple committed, living together, having sex, adopting a child, not hurting anyone, and yet never getting married......a sin?

There's no catch behind the question. It's a simple, straightforward yes or no, for anyone reading.
Thanks for that Trapped - makes the point I was trying to make much clearer. There's been a lot of dancing around and around this . . .
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Old 10-07-2020, 09:03 AM   #29
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And even more, can the OT God be trusted?

The key book in the OT to determine that is, the book of Job. The book of Job depicts God as completely untrustworthy. I think it's so clear to anyone with an objective brain that there's no point to do a exegesis on the book, and how God acted in it ... or is depicted in it.

So if the book of Job depicts God as untrustworthy, how much can we trust the book of Leviticus ; a book that doesn't apply to us? That's because the OT God can't be trusted.

The OT God is off the mark.
Can you provide disclaimers in your signature that your opinions in no way reflect those of the rest of the members on this forum?

The story of Job in the Book of Job is truly incredible to all of those who endeavor to walk by faith. To those without faith in God, it appears as gibberish and foolishness. And that, my friend, also summarizes the entire story of the Bible. Paul's words here quoting Isaiah make this point abundantly clear:
"For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will reject the understanding of the experts. Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn't God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in God's wisdom, the world thru wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached." -- (I Cor. 1.19-21)
Jesus Himself is the Message of God. Our Savior Jesus Christ, the One you regularly mock and criticize on this forum became weak and foolish and despised and even cursed in order to save all men, including you.

At least those who decide to believe the "foolish" message of the Bible. It's up to you.
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Old 10-07-2020, 09:15 AM   #30
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Can you provide disclaimers in your signature that your opinions in no way reflect those of the rest of the members on this forum?

The story of Job in the Book of Job is truly incredible to all of those who endeavor to walk by faith. To those without faith in God, it appears as gibberish and foolishness. And that, my friend, also summarizes the entire story of the Bible. Paul's words here quoting Isaiah make this point abundantly clear:
"For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will reject the understanding of the experts. Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn't God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in God's wisdom, the world thru wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached." -- (I Cor. 1.19-21)
Jesus Himself is the Message of God. Our Savior Jesus Christ, the One you regularly mock and criticize on this forum became weak and foolish and despised and even cursed in order to save all men, including you.

At least those who decide to believe the "foolish" message of the Bible. It's up to you.
You say all that in support of the homophobic verses in Leviticus 18?
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Old 10-07-2020, 09:21 AM   #31
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You say all that in support of the homophobic verses in Leviticus 18?
I said all that in response to your comments here:
Quote:
And even more, can the OT God be trusted?

The key book in the OT to determine that is, the book of Job. The book of Job depicts God as completely untrustworthy. I think it's so clear to anyone with an objective brain that there's no point to do a exegesis on the book, and how God acted in it ... or is depicted in it.

So if the book of Job depicts God as untrustworthy, how much can we trust the book of Leviticus ; a book that doesn't apply to us? That's because the OT God can't be trusted.

The OT God is off the mark.
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Old 10-07-2020, 12:07 PM   #32
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Default Re: Things Learned from LGBTQ+ Discussions

So while you two (Ohio, awareness) go down an apparent rabbit hole with each other once more, hopefully someone from the LGBTQ+ community will answer what Trapped and myself have put forth, which is the question we keep going around & around on and never gets answered directly. The responses I've seen on it so far falls basically into, "If it feels so good, how can it be wrong?" arena. Or another incredible response I've seen is, "Homosexuality is not off the mark in any way and is actually God's intention."

It was even inferred that if we don't completely accept 100% that all LGBTQ+ is normal and part of God's grand design, then we are haters. This is a total Strawman argument and patently false. As Christians with Christ in us, we love everyone - He came to die for sinners & enemies of God, of which we all were (and still sin sometimes). However, what is in the Bible is God's truth, and we must speak the truth in love accordingly, right?
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Old 10-07-2020, 12:26 PM   #33
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As I was working outside today I was musing about this subject and talking to the Lord about it and how to speak the truth in love. Here's what came to me - God has a household administration and His banner over us is love. Because He loves us, He wants the best for us, and He has an order of things that facilitate each one in His household in getting what they need (not necessarily what they want though).

God doesn't give laws and guidance just to be flappin' His lips - they are for a purpose. And that loving purpose is to help us and to not do harm to others and have good relationships with one another. Some of His laws are real obvious in that we can see that violating them does obvious harm to others - e.g., murder, stealing, lying, etc. Other things He calls out, like adultery, cause issues and harm with relationships . . . it is hurtful to the other parties. Sexual sins cause relationship issues.

So God has a loving, household administration to see that everyone in His household gets what they need. And things are put in place and communicated for the children's security, safety, comfort, nourishment, continued relationships, etc. And to keep things operating well, there is an order so that the love and care can flow to all. Often there are ones who want to rebel against that order (think teenagers), because they don't see the overall benefits of maintaining that order.

If you say LGBTQ+ doesn't do anyone any harm, then what about all the other relationships surrounding a LGBTQ+ person? You may say it's not fair and all that, and that others should be more "enlightened," but to say the least, the lifestyle is not easy on various relationships. (that's what a gay friend of the family once said, "Who in the world would choose this - because it's certainly not easy!") Perhaps God had this in mind, when He called various sexual behaviors as being "off the mark." I don't know completely . . . I just know He calls it out. Sin is off the mark and causes death. (1 Cor 15:56)

I'm not here to judge - the Lord knows we all have sin and things we do that are counterproductive according to God's universal order of things. And Christians should love others regardless of behaviors (this really takes Christ's love in us!) But God's laws and guidance are not just some arbitrary and capricious thing for His amusement. They are there for a loving reason, even if we disagree or can't see what that reason is exactly. Some things we just have to trust Him on. (e.g., drunkenness, adultery, homosexuality, etc.)

So I hope that makes sense - I am trying to say the same thing in different ways to hopefully make it more clear. Please forgive any shortcoming I have in effectively communicating this. Lastly, if someone doesn't see that any LBGTQ+ behavior is even just a teeny-tiny little off the mark according to the Bible, I don't know what else can be said!

Jesus loves me this I know, cuz the Bible tells me so.
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Old 10-07-2020, 01:12 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
So while you two (Ohio, awareness) go down an apparent rabbit hole with each other once more, hopefully someone from the LGBTQ+ community will answer what Trapped and myself have put forth, which is the question we keep going around & around on and never gets answered directly. The responses I've seen on it so far falls basically into, "If it feels so good, how can it be wrong?" arena. Or another incredible response I've seen is, "Homosexuality is not off the mark in any way and is actually God's intention."

It was even inferred that if we don't completely accept 100% that all LGBTQ+ is normal and part of God's grand design, then we are haters. This is a total Strawman argument and patently false. As Christians with Christ in us, we love everyone - He came to die for sinners & enemies of God, of which we all were (and still sin sometimes). However, what is in the Bible is God's truth, and we must speak the truth in love accordingly, right?
Haven't you ever been on a discussion board with 2 conversations going on at once? Yes, I do think that awareness's blasphemous comments about God should not go unchallenged. I think it is he who derails discussions, not me, and I have said so. Perhaps you are not bothered by them, and that's fine too. But I am. It's a Christian forum, isn't it? Do we believe in God and the Bible or not?

From the beginning I took another course of discussion. Instead of taking the normal path and using the Bible verses to say how LGBT is sin, I decided to examine it from a societal view. My posts also went unanswered, specifically what are the long term damages that the trans movement will have on society?

Neither of these are "rabbit holes" to me.

Since you started this thread, why don't you state some guidelines for discussion, that way you won't get offended like serenity and awareness when someone like me inadvertently steps on your toes and you demand this thread be shut down. So far we have discussed the following:
  • Slandering God and defending Him
  • Allegations of LGBT persecutions and hoaxes
  • Dangers of Trans on women
  • Claims by the Moderator that these posts are garbage
  • God truly loves the LGBT but hates the sin, just as he loves all sinners but still hates their sin
  • Effects of alcohol on people
  • Mistreatment of Blacks in criminal justice system
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post

If you say LGBTQ+ doesn't do anyone any harm, then what about all the other relationships surrounding a LGBTQ+ person? You may say it's not fair and all that, and that others should be more "enlightened," but to say the least, the lifestyle is not easy on various relationships.

Jesus loves me this I know, cuz the Bible tells me so.
This is like comparing a striaght couple’s relationship where the in laws dont like the partner. I already shared on the other thread about my parents ultimately accepting my relationship with my spouse so I dont know the harm you are talking about.
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:16 PM   #36
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See below comments Basically, don't get yer feathers too ruffled, bro, mine aren't!

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Haven't you ever been on a discussion board with 2 conversations going on at once? Yes, I do think that awareness's blasphemous comments about God should not go unchallenged. I think it is he who derails discussions, not me, and I have said so. Perhaps you are not bothered by them, and that's fine too. But I am. It's a Christian forum, isn't it? Do we believe in God and the Bible or not? I am bothered by awareness' anti-God comments, and have said so a number of times . . . perhaps you've missed this. I do usually find his comments more bothersome.

From the beginning I took another course of discussion. Instead of taking the normal path and using the Bible verses to say how LGBT is sin, I decided to examine it from a societal view. My posts also went unanswered, specifically what are the long term damages that the trans movement will have on society?

Neither of these are "rabbit holes" to me. No, I think that's fair - it's just that once you and awareness get going, it seems to prety much dominate the discussion . . . you two can't resist jabbing each other apparently.

Since you started this thread, why don't you state some guidelines for discussion, that way you won't get offended like serenity and awareness when someone like me inadvertently steps on your toes and you demand this thread be shut down. Not offended bro - just don't want to see us off snorkeling in the weeds (as mentioned above).

So far we have discussed the following:
  • Slandering God and defending Him *
  • Allegations of LGBT persecutions and hoaxes *
  • Dangers of Trans on women *
  • Claims by the Moderator that these posts are garbage
  • God truly loves the LGBT but hates the sin, just as he loves all sinners but still hates their sin * Amen & AMEN!!!
  • Effects of alcohol on people * - just trying to point out that an excess thereof is also called out as sin, like homobizness
  • Mistreatment of Blacks in criminal justice system
Thanks for that synopsis! So the things marked with an asterisk are definitely related to the LGBTQ+ things learned topic I think. The others are a sidebar at best. Sidebars are okay as they may help clarify the main point, but at some point it's snorkeling in the weeds. I really just ask that things like what you and awareness get into would somehow not become the predominate thing as it seems to have been on other threads (you guys must secretly enjoy these little back-n-forths between each other) - then the main subject tends to get lost as people start responding to the other thing . . .

Also, the things that appear to really trip each other's triggers are the political related stuff, and slandering God comments. If we can keep these to a minimum, it might make for a more fruitful discussion. (However, I also acknowledge it may be difficult to do, since this topic is so intertwined with both minefields!

And as we say in our leadership classes, "Attack the problem, not the person!"
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:22 PM   #37
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I agree it's not a good comparison, and I think that a better one is a heterosexual couple in a committed relationship living together and having sex before marriage, or never getting married.

I like this as a example because its commonly done, still oftentimes looked down upon, and it also pertains directly to what has been called "the clobber verses".

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

The "fornicators" and the "sexually immoral" in those verses apply directly to me, as a heterosexual, in precisely the same way "practicing homosexuality" applies to a homosexual. There is no difference. Both refer to the acts rather than to who we are as a person. Both refer to the sexual acts, and not to feelings we wish we didn't have.

These verses "clobber" me just as much as they "clobber" an LGBTQ person.

So in my example of a committed heterosexual couple, all the same arguments apply:

1. we can adopt a child and help the world
2. we aren't hurting anyone
3. we skirt what the Bible says about sexual relations in/outside the bounds of marriage
4. it "feels right"
5. it involves sex
6. it involves love
7. it involves commitment

And yet, it's also a sin. We can have something that hits all the feel good markers, that we can point to all the reasons why no one should take issue with it, and yet, the Word calls it unrighteous and contrary to sound doctrine.

Do I like it? Not necessarily. Can it be called a "living successful relationship"? Yep. But do I know what the Bible says and thus not do it? Yep.

Would you call a heterosexual couple committed, living together, having sex, adopting a child, not hurting anyone, and yet never getting married......a sin?

There's no catch behind the question. It's a simple, straightforward yes or no, for anyone reading.
The verses you pointed out with the words “homosexuality” in it, the word “arsenokoitai” shows up in two different verses in the bible, but it was not translated to mean “homosexual” until 1946. “Arsenokoitai” in greek (the language New Testament was written in) meant men having sexual relationships with boy slaves. so of course it was sexual immorality. it was never meant used to equate two men or two women in a commited respectful relationship. So the entire premise for the rest of the paragraphs underneath is wrong, thus the argument doesnt hold up.
See below on a scholar’s view regarding this matter:

“Anyway, I had a German friend come back to town and I asked if he could help me with some passages in one of my German Bibles from the 1800s. So we went to Leviticus 18:22 and he’s translating it for me word for word. In the English where it says “Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,” the German version says “Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with a woman, for it is an abomination.” I said, “What?! Are you sure?” He said, “Yes!” Then we went to Leviticus 20:13— same thing, “Young boys.” So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original Greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, “Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
I then grabbed my facsimile copy of Martin Luther’s original German translation from 1534. My friend is reading through it for me and he says, “Ed, this says the same thing!” They use the word knabenschander. Knaben is boy, schander is molester. This word “boy molesters” for the most part carried through the next several centuries of German Bible translations. Knabenschander is also in 1 Timothy 1:10. So the interesting thing is, I asked if they ever changed the word arsenokoitai to homosexual in modern translations. So my friend found it and told me, “The first time homosexual appears in a German translation is 1983.” To me that was a little suspect because of what was happening in culture in the 1970s. Also because the Germans were the ones who created the word homosexual in 1862, they had all the history, research, and understanding to change it if they saw fit; however, they did not change it until 1983. If anyone was going to put the word homosexual in the Bible, the Germans should have been the first to do it!”

There is a gay agenda, but not for what people think of it today. They used mistranslations to condemn gay sex in general.

Source: https://um-insight.net/perspectives/...-in-the-bible/
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:29 PM   #38
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This is like comparing a striaght couple’s relationship where the in laws dont like the partner. I already shared on the other thread about my parents ultimately accepting my relationship with my spouse so I dont know the harm you are talking about.
Okay, that may be a harder one to show, or at least it's maybe a sidebar that could be pursued at some point . . .

But the big question some on here want to know: Do you see anything wrong at all with homosexuality from scriptures? Or do you see it 100% okay and justified completely from scripture?
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:31 PM   #39
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Did you say that you have a background in criminology?

Then you know that stats are always fair game for manipulation, right?


Without the nuclear family there is no father figure at home. There is little emphasis on education. The inner city schools are failures. Entire schools in Baltimore graduate kids who can't even read. No father figure at home and no education in school spell one thing -- crime. There are reasons why the highest density percentages of 911 calls come from inner city black neighborhoods. That means blacks are calling the police to help protect themselves from other blacks. That is not racism!
Stats can be manipulated but that’s why there’s peer reviews from academaia from all over the world, not just one source .

And have you ever wondered why there’s no father? because of poverty (thus more crime) , caused by sustemic racism, not just police but in every part of our society. African males are in prison so thats why the fathers are absent.
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Old 10-07-2020, 02:36 PM   #40
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Things have dramatically changed in the 21st century. I really don't think it's fair to discuss the evils of past generations in order to judge today's people. The US has had more progress in this area than any other country on earth. For example, compare women's rights in the US with those in Muslim countries, and compare human rights with the Uyghers in China.

When social / economic researchers discuss minority statistics, they collect vast amounts of data, and then use average and median information. That doesn't mean there will be no poor people. But are you saying that you and your friends are abandoned minor children living as homeless?

Yes, it has been reported that the Pulse gunman was bisexual, who frequented gay bars, and cheated on his wife. Not a nice character.
Yes i have friends/acquaintances who are kicked out of their parents and were homeless for a few months. But thanks to lgbtq centers and their friends who let them sleep on couches, they were able to pick themselves up. I’m not homeless but I shouldnt be answering to you because you didnt regard answering if you were a white male over your 50’s which makes a big difference in being able to empathize minorities’ situations.
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:40 PM   #41
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Stats can be manipulated but that’s why there’s peer reviews from academaia from all over the world, not just one source .

And have you ever wondered why there’s no father? because of poverty (thus more crime) , caused by sustemic racism, not just police but in every part of our society. African males are in prison so thats why the fathers are absent.
There is no factual basis for this. Media hype without stats. Peer reviews can only help when there is no financial incentive and political agenda to skew the results, case in point: climate change.

Did you know that before the Civil Rights Era of the 60's, there was less poverty, less unemployment, less crime, and less imprisonment among Black men, yet there was purported to be more racism. I'm surprised your information is so inaccurate. It shows how biased our universities have become.

Here are a few Stats to consider:
  • 93 percent of black homicide victims are killed by other blacks
  • Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do
  • Blacks committed 52% of homicides between 1980 and 2008, despite composing just 13 percent of the population
  • Wites committed 45% of homicides while composing 77% of the population
  • There were almost 6,000 blacks killed by other blacks in 2015.By contrast, only 258 blacks were killed by police gunfire.
  • Black crime rates were lower in the 1940s and 1950s, when black poverty was higher and “racial discrimination was rampant and legal.”
  • A straight line can be drawn between family breakdown and youth violence
  • As economist Thomas Sowell points out, before the 1960s “most black children were raised in two-parent families.” In 2013, over 72 percent of blacks were born out of wedlock. In Cook County (Chicago), 79 percent of blacks were born to single mothers in 2003, while only 15 percent of whites were born to single mothers.
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:46 PM   #42
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Yes i have friends/acquaintances who are kicked out of their parents and were homeless for a few months. But thanks to lgbtq centers and their friends who let them sleep on couches, they were able to pick themselves up.

I’m not homeless but I shouldnt be answering to you because you didnt regard answering if you were a white male over your 50’s which makes a big difference in being able to empathize minorities’ situations.
Were your friends/acquaintances minors or adults over 18 when they were kicked out of the house? The laws can protect minors.

There are lots of straight white males who got kicked out of their parents house. Did you empathize with them?

I never asked you personal questions about yourself, so why go there? For this discussion, who cares if I am a green juvenile from Tazmania?
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:49 PM   #43
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There is no factual basis for this. Media hype without stats. Peer reviews can only help when there is no financial incentive and political agenda to skew the results, case in point: climate change.

Did you know that before the Civil Rights Era of the 60's, there was less poverty, less unemployment, less crime, and less imprisonment among Black men, yet there was purported to be more racism. I'm surprised your information is so inaccurate. It shows how biased our universities have become.

Here are a few Stats to consider:
  • 93 percent of black homicide victims are killed by other blacks
  • Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do
  • Blacks committed 52% of homicides between 1980 and 2008, despite composing just 13 percent of the population
  • Wites committed 45% of homicides while composing 77% of the population
  • There were almost 6,000 blacks killed by other blacks in 2015.By contrast, only 258 blacks were killed by police gunfire.
  • Black crime rates were lower in the 1940s and 1950s, when black poverty was higher and “racial discrimination was rampant and legal.”
  • A straight line can be drawn between family breakdown and youth violence
  • As economist Thomas Sowell points out, before the 1960s “most black children were raised in two-parent families.” In 2013, over 72 percent of blacks were born out of wedlock. In Cook County (Chicago), 79 percent of blacks were born to single mothers in 2003, while only 15 percent of whites were born to single mothers.
I’m not surprised you are against climate change and education. Not my information: Also we should be paying attention to today not the 60’s. nd so convenient that the two black activists you named dont believe in systemic racism and you quote from them, and blame Democrats for impoverished black neighborhoods. But we should get away from politics and stick to the outline StG has for us and talk about lgbtq issues
https://www.sentencingproject.org/pu...l-disparities/
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:50 PM   #44
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Were your friends/acquaintances minors or adults over 18 when they were kicked out of the house? The laws can protect minors.

I never asked you personal questions about yourself, so why go there? For this discussion, who cares if I am a green juvenile from Tazmania?
You asked in the other thread if my spouse would feel jeaopardized by the fact that I am bisexual.
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Old 10-07-2020, 06:07 PM   #45
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You asked in the other thread if my spouse would feel jeaopardized by the fact that I am bisexual.
I only asked questions about the information you volunteered to provide.

Sorry if that offended you.
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Old 10-07-2020, 06:21 PM   #46
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I’m not surprised you are against climate change and education.

Not my information: Also we should be paying attention to today not the 60’s.
I'm not against climate change. I am for the truth. I have seen lots of data that disputes prevailing group think.

The earth goes thru cycles. When I was in high school, the earth was going thru a cooling cycle. All of the scientists and prevailing climatologists predicted an ICE AGE would soon destroy the earth. The last one was 10K years ago, and the next one was coming soon. The reasons were the same: fossil fuel emissions polluting the atmosphere. Then in the 90's a warming cycle occurred. Wait 10 years or so and we will be cooling again. Historical data proves this.

It's no wonder that they use all sorts of frightful and apocalyptic propaganda to deceive and manipulate young people.
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:22 PM   #47
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Serenity: This question may have been missed, due to other posting activity, so I thought to repost. Answering this will help lay a more effective foundation I think.
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But the big question some on here want to know: Do you see anything wrong at all with homosexuality from scriptures? Or do you see it 100% okay and justified completely from scripture?
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:35 PM   #48
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From Serenity Thread

Refresh my memory, or correct it. Is that a Jesus saying, that I don't know about? Did I miss him saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself, but only if they have Christ in them?"
9 times did I find "love your neighbor as yourself. whether they are saved or unsaved, that is not the basis for our loving them.
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Old 10-07-2020, 08:12 PM   #49
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I would like to also add that I believe not only that the Bible is from expressed through human writers and there are hints of human biases throughout the Bible. Just look at heinous tragedy of “spilling seed” in the case of Judah and his sons and Tamar. At the time, society was for propagating. And also take a look at the story of the adulterous woman the Pharisees brought to Jesus to have her stoned. If there was an adulterous woman, there must have had sexual relations with men, implicating them also in adultery. But where are these men? Were they punished as well or was only the woman punished (kind of like the witch trials in Salem)? Why is the Bible mute about thee men. Was the woman commiting adultery by herself? The interpretation that makes most sense is that the Bible including the New Testament was written mostly be men with biased patriarchical views based on the time period that they lived in, so to talk about stoning the men along with the woman must’ve prob been covered up. This shows that the Buble is a human book made by humans (with some divine inspiration but surely not completely). Then we have to wonder about the circumstances regarding the passages regarding clobber passages used by some Christians to condemn homosexuality as a sin.
The Bible can't trace every line of every interaction of every implied participant in every story it tells. It's not a secret that for the adulterous woman to be an adulterer, there was a man or men involved. But the side we see is the side that Jesus was involved in. That's why we see only the woman's side, because the NT follows the line that involves Jesus. Maybe they took the man off to be punished and just brought the woman to trap Jesus.

Additionally, if you want to assume they didn't punish the man, well....the law then was that both parties involved in adultery be put to death - man and woman. So the accusers were themselves caught in sin by accusing the woman only and apparently letting the man go free. This could be why Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".....because the men in front of him accusing the adulterous women had literally sinned right then by not dragging the man along to be brought to justice too.

It's very interesting that you'd take a passage most known to show the extent of God's grace and try to use it to claim biased patriarchal views. I mean.....the whole point of the passage is that Jesus DIDN'T go along with stoning her! How un-patriarchal can you get?!
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Old 10-07-2020, 08:19 PM   #50
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StG quoted "the letter kills," and then goes to the letter to make his points.
Okay....."the letter kills" but the spirit gives life isn't talking about quoting a verse.

The letter kills is referring to the law, and that keeping the law won't save you from death. Keeping the law is not what justifies us before God and saves us from the wages of our sin (death). It is the spirit that does that.

Sheesh. Can't even quote verses in this place without getting slapped.
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Old 10-07-2020, 09:00 PM   #51
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Serenity: This question may have been missed, due to other posting activity, so I thought to repost. Answering this will help lay a more effective foundation I think.
Boy we can be here all day talking about this. From my opinion, as I mentioned in previous posts the word for “homosexuality” was mistranslated from Greek in the New Testament. If you look at the OT, homosexuality was condemned but only men lying with men (nothing about women), so it’s vague. You have to see the bible as a book written by humans and the historical context in whoch Paul wrote those clobber verses. So short answer is the Bible is unclear about homosexuality. It doesnt mention anything about sexual orientation, and bible scholars do not believe people at the time understood or had the scientific knowledge and advancements we have today to put qords such as “sexual orientation”, “leabian,”bisexual”, “transgender” or “intersexual”. The only place I remember is Jesus praising sexual other, the eunuchs, in the Bible. If you ask me personally, I don’t believe 100 percent that scripture is against homosexuality. But Christ in my heart says it’s 100 percent okay to be like this, according to my spirit.
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Old 10-07-2020, 10:23 PM   #52
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I said all that in response to your comments here:
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And even more, can the OT God be trusted?

The key book in the OT to determine that is, the book of Job. The book of Job depicts God as completely untrustworthy. I think it's so clear to anyone with an objective brain that there's no point to do a exegesis on the book, and how God acted in it ... or is depicted in it.

So if the book of Job depicts God as untrustworthy, how much can we trust the book of Leviticus ; a book that doesn't apply to us? That's because the OT God can't be trusted.

The OT God is off the mark.
What I said about God in the book of Job can be proven, using the same book.

Now God being off the mark? That's a subjective judgement. And it's difficult to explain. I look at it this way : We assume, with just a few verses, that we know what God approves of or not. But God is like your wife or husband, even with years of talking you still don't know all that's in him or her's mind, and really like many other systems of him or her's fleshly person. That's just the way it is, like it or not.

I like the Bible. It's a great book, and to me as well, is entertaining. For most of my life I looked at it like it's divine. Then I grew up, and began to see it as a human book.

Today I look at it in human terms and values. So I read Leviticus 18 with modern day human values. And a lot of chapter 18 makes sense, like sleeping with kinsmen, and kinswomen -- incest. And those statements in chap 18, match what we know about genetics today. But I don't see the homophobia verses as such. Genetics today disproves that homosexuality is just a choice that God can judge.

I personally see 18 as lacking all of God's thinking on the matter ; like the author(s) failed to write at the end, something like, "Love conquers all." Which means God realized that love between same sexes, overrides such condemnatory statements. Then God wouldn't be off the mark. We just don't know the mind of God.

And if how Job depicts God is accurate, then, God is a trickster God ... and all bets are off. God could mean Leviticus 18 ... or not. And looking a genetic evidence today, He doesn't.
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Old 10-08-2020, 02:28 AM   #53
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What I said about God in the book of Job can be proven, using the same book.

And if how Job depicts God is accurate, then, God is a trickster God ... and all bets are off. God could mean Leviticus 18 ... or not. And looking a genetic evidence today, He doesn't.
I always wondered, if the story of Job was just that, a story to teach us something. Because if it really did happen, wouldnt that be really really messed up? God taking away everything you love or allowing Satan to take away everything you love just to prove a point. No matter the new wives or children Job had at the end, it wouldnt make a difference because they wouldnt be the same loved ones he lost. Yes, lets say we treat the women and children like inanimate objects or property, then prob the grief would have seemed to be less. But that just shows how God views our loved ones in the OT. And not to mention God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and in the end it was “just kidding, herems a ram”. Thats sadistic. And God being Jealous all the time when the Israelites worship other gods. isnt that a human attribute? Is God compassionate and understanding or is he sadistic and jealous?
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:12 AM   #54
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Genetics today disproves that homosexuality is just a choice that God can judge.
I'm not sure you even read responses to on these threads. We've covered this already. God judges your actions. If you have same-sex attractions, that's not a sin. If you jump into bed and have homosexual sex, that's a sin He'll judge. No one's genetics are tying their hands and forcing them to have homosexual sex. We are all made in various ways, but God judges what we do, not just simply us existing.

Besides, like much of this thread, claims and arguments have been contradictory. LGBTQ supporters want to absolve themselves by pointing to genetics, and then they post an article (on the other thread), the main crux of which is "oh no, how dare you point to genetics!!" I haven't seen literally anything that makes cohesive sense yet.

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I personally see 18 as lacking all of God's thinking on the matter ; like the author(s) failed to write at the end, something like, "Love conquers all." Which means God realized that love between same sexes, overrides such condemnatory statements. Then God wouldn't be off the mark. We just don't know the mind of God.

And if how Job depicts God is accurate, then, God is a trickster God ... and all bets are off. God could mean Leviticus 18 ... or not. And looking a genetic evidence today, He doesn't.
Okay.......awareness.......God loves us all. He "SO" loves us, as John 3:16 says. Love does conquer all. But guess what.....as you know.....His holiness and righteousness still have to be satisfied. Love doesn't NEGATE all. When we sinned, God the righteous judge has to punish wrongdoing, or else He wouldn't be a just God. If a murderer killed a family member of yours, and the judge looked at you and said "love conquers all" and let the guy go, that's not a righteous judge. Punishment still has to occur.

And so Jesus took our punishment, so God's righteousness and holiness can still stand. His love does reach "farther" but it doesn't mean everything else is tossed off a cliff.

God fully sees and acknowledges our sins, and in order for us to be saved, we have to acknowledge the depth of our sin too. Otherwise we wouldn't have need for a Savior without that acknowledgement. It's when we see them and acknowledge them that He will cover them. But if we go around claiming clear sins aren't sins, and continue in those sins, He can't cover them.

You are mixing two things, frequently. "Love between same sexes" is fine. SEX between same sexes ISN'T. "Love covers all" is certainly not speaking of homosexual sex, and you fully well know that.

I'll get to SerenityLives' interesting thoughts on arsenokoitai this weekend. I've been wanting to respond to that from the previous thread but haven't had the time.
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:13 AM   #55
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The verses you pointed out with the words “homosexuality” in it, ...
Nice dodge of the question. My question to you still stands.

I'll respond about arsenokoitai a little later when I have more time.
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Old 10-08-2020, 08:36 AM   #56
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Nice dodge of the question. My question to you still stands.

I'll respond about arsenokoitai a little later when I have more time.
The Greek word "arsenokoitai" is a compound word composed of "arsen" (Strong's #730) which indicates a male, and "koitas" which is a bed or mat. There are verses which use arsen when referring to the birth of a male baby, a male child, and a male adult. As such, "arsen," without further context, does not provide any definite information about the age of the male, as it is in the English language. Arsen is only gender specific, without reference to age.

Thus, using only the strict wording of 1 Cor 6 and 1 Tim 1, we don't know specifically whether this act is adult with adult or adult with child. Since no caveats are included in scripture for male adult with male adult, none should be assumed, which refutes the entire basis of the article referenced by Serenity and her "German" friend.

Romans 1.27 also addresses male with male sex. The context never indicates that one party is a child or a victim, rather that both males "burned in their lust toward one another." Obviously both males could be adults or mature minors, old enough to lust passionately.

Trapped, I rushed these comments out, so please confirm, correct, or expand on anything I wrote here.
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Old 10-08-2020, 09:41 AM   #57
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I always wondered, if the story of Job was just that, a story to teach us something. Because if it really did happen, wouldnt that be really really messed up? God taking away everything you love or allowing Satan to take away everything you love just to prove a point. No matter the new wives or children Job had at the end, it wouldnt make a difference because they wouldnt be the same loved ones he lost. Yes, lets say we treat the women and children like inanimate objects or property, then prob the grief would have seemed to be less. But that just shows how God views our loved ones in the OT. And not to mention God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and in the end it was “just kidding, herems a ram”. Thats sadistic. And God being Jealous all the time when the Israelites worship other gods. isnt that a human attribute? Is God compassionate and understanding or is he sadistic and jealous?
We're human. We can only understand things in human terms. So we write in human terms grand poetry such as the book of Job. (It's exquisite poetry).

It's written in three parts, between the 7th and 4th c. BCE. It's core early original concern was theodicy, or how a good God allows human suffering and evil. Then later was added the opening of the story, and the ending, that makes for interesting marvelous literature.

And humorist reading.

After my son died -- my beautiful smart blonde Chinese boy -- I was drawn to the book of Job, and was reading it over and over again.

I remember it well. I won't go into the details of the moment, but I remember after reading it many times, I busted out laughing. It was after God coming out of the whirlwind, and bragging about how big and powerful He was.

What made me laugh was, after betting with 'the Satan,' that Job would stand righteous no matter what the devil would do to Job, save take his life, and Job ends up with nothing but dust and ashes, and sores all over his body, God comes out, and didn't thank Job for making Him a winner, but comes out bragging about how wonderful and powerful He is. Now that's some humorous feminist poetry.

In the end the book attempts to explain why bad things happen to good people. But it depicts God as a The-O-Dicey. In other words, a unpredictable God, with indifference to human suffering (like the powers of nature - what humans know).

Anyway, to continue my original point, if the book of Job depicts God as He or She is, then the 18th chapter of Leviticus should not be taken as God's law. But should be just another example of poetry, depicting God as The-O-Dicey.

And therefore, shouldn't be used to clobber gays.
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Old 10-08-2020, 11:53 AM   #58
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Serenity: This question may have been missed, due to other posting activity, so I thought to repost. Answering this will help lay a more effective foundation I think.

But the big question some on here want to know: Do you see anything wrong at all with homosexuality from scriptures? Or do you see it 100% okay and justified completely from scripture?
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Boy we can be here all day talking about this. From my opinion, as I mentioned in previous posts the word for “homosexuality” was mistranslated from Greek in the New Testament. If you look at the OT, homosexuality was condemned but only men lying with men (nothing about women), so it’s vague. You have to see the bible as a book written by humans and the historical context in whoch Paul wrote those clobber verses. So short answer is the Bible is unclear about homosexuality. It doesnt mention anything about sexual orientation, and bible scholars do not believe people at the time understood or had the scientific knowledge and advancements we have today to put qords such as “sexual orientation”, “leabian,”bisexual”, “transgender” or “intersexual”. The only place I remember is Jesus praising sexual other, the eunuchs, in the Bible. If you ask me personally, I don’t believe 100 percent that scripture is against homosexuality. But Christ in my heart says it’s 100 percent okay to be like this, according to my spirit.
OK, thanks, I wanted to be sure that was your answer to this - it seemed like that was the case from various prior posts. So checking for understanding: it sounds like you believe the Bible doesn't talk clearly about homosexuality (specifically perhaps not about female homosexuality) and possibly condones it, and that in your own heart you believe God is fine with it. Right?
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Old 10-08-2020, 12:06 PM   #59
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The Greek word "arsenokoitai" is a compound word composed of "arsen" (Strong's #730) which indicates a male, and "koitas" which is a bed or mat. There are verses which use arsen when referring to the birth of a male baby, a male child, and a male adult. As such, "arsen," without further context, does not provide any definite information about the age of the male, as it is in the English language. Arsen is only gender specific, without reference to age.

Thus, using only the strict wording of 1 Cor 6 and 1 Tim 1, we don't know specifically whether this act is adult with adult or adult with child. Since no caveats are included in scripture for male adult with male adult, none should be assumed, which refutes the entire basis of the article referenced by Serenity and her "German" friend.

Romans 1.27 also addresses male with male sex. The context never indicates that one party is a child or a victim, rather that both males "burned in their lust toward one another." Obviously both males could be adults or mature minors, old enough to lust passionately.

Trapped, I rushed these comments out, so please confirm, correct, or expand on anything I wrote here.
Again you take the historical context out of the meaning of the words. In some languages, you cant just take the word’s meaning at face value, yoo have to read the surrounding verses and the cultural context in which the author, or Paul is writing in. Romans 1:27 is talking about the ancient Roman practice of temple prostitution. Readers of Romans would know what Paul is talking about but us as modern readers, no, because we dont live in that time period! This is why those who use the Bible to justify their points of view (i.e slavery at the time of Abraham Lincoln is right) are foolish. Take a look here for historical context:
https://eewc.com/historical-literary...romans-124-27/

https://collected.jcu.edu/cgi/viewco...=mastersessays

https://www.google.com/amp/s/lgbtqco...-romans-1/amp/

See this article for terminology:
https://www.westarinstitute.org/wp-c...koitai-3.1.pdf
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Old 10-08-2020, 12:37 PM   #60
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OK, thanks, I wanted to be sure that was your answer to this - it seemed like that was the case from various prior posts. So checking for understanding: it sounds like you believe the Bible doesn't talk clearly about homosexuality (specifically perhaps not about female homosexuality) and possibly condones it, and that in your own heart you believe God is fine with it. Right?
Yes, correct. And denying the sex part of a relationship but maintaining that attraction is okay is like denying a straight heterosexual couple the need for intimacy, which is important for human bonding and such a fundamental part to a relationship. God said that it was not good for man to be alone.
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Old 10-08-2020, 12:51 PM   #61
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Nice dodge of the question. My question to you still stands.

I'll respond about arsenokoitai a little later when I have more time.
I was merely pointing out the policability of the verses you use to lead up to your questions. I’m not a bible literalist and the bible literalists in here only think the only Christians are Christians who look and think like them.

So no, I have different points of view on each of your questions
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Old 10-08-2020, 12:56 PM   #62
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I was merely pointing out the policability of the verses you use to lead up to your questions. I’m not a bible literalist and the bible literalists in here only think the only Christians are Christians who look and think like them.

So no, I have different points of view on each of your questions
Is that a roundabout way of saying that you think committed heterosexuals living together and having sex, but not being married.....is fine and is not a sin?
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Old 10-08-2020, 01:57 PM   #63
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I was merely pointing out the policability of the verses you use to lead up to your questions. I’m not a bible literalist and the bible literalists in here only think the only Christians are Christians who look and think like them.
Ahh, well no. So let's define what a Christian is. Simply defined, it's someone who has Christ living in them, right?

Someone with Christ living in them can think and do all sorts of things - in fact, they can behave just like unbelievers and do everything unbelievers do. In other words, a child of God can go into a far country, waste their substance on riotous living and sleep with the hogs in despair. But they're still a child of the King and Father still loves them!

I think this forum, and specifically this thread, points to the fact that we're all over the proverbial map when it comes to how we take scripture.

(and someone can do all the things according to the law and be a very good person, but without Christ living in them, they are not a child of God and are lost)
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Old 10-08-2020, 05:26 PM   #64
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I think this forum, and specifically this thread, points to the fact that we're all over the proverbial map when it comes to how we take scripture.
What? Me? I resemble that remark.

Ya know Trapped, Ohio, and others, Serenity makes a valid point. In short, we weren't back there. And we don't have a clue of what it was like. It was a whole other world back then. They were flat earthers. They couldn't help it.

Our modern scientific age is a universe apart with how they lived and thought back then. Their mindset was beyond our ability to even imagine. For one, superstition was prevalent virtually everywhere back then. It was the common way to think. It couldn't be helped. Yet they were smart, as proven by their writings, many that are full of out of this world fantastical stories.

I point that out because they back then had minds far and away from ours today.

So we shouldn't be so certain about what Paul says, to the point of clobbering anyone with his verses. I think if we're gonna stick to Paul, we should read 1 Corinthians 13 over and over again. Otherwise we risk just being a clanging cymbal ... and be stuck thinking like a child.
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Old 10-08-2020, 06:12 PM   #65
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Again you take the historical context out of the meaning of the words. In some languages, you cant just take the word’s meaning at face value, yoo have to read the surrounding verses and the cultural context in which the author, or Paul is writing in. Romans 1:27 is talking about the ancient Roman practice of temple prostitution.
Actually, I do not take these words out of historical context. My study uses excellent time-tested Bible study aids, and not some "covid-in-the-basement internet scholar." What I wrote is confirmed by the best authors.

For example, Paul had in mind Genesis 19 when he wrote Romans chapter 1. Had Paul written comments like this to the Corinthians, then I would agree with you. I Cor chap 6 confirms this. Paul directly referred to temple prostitutes in verses 6.9, 6.11, and 6.15-6.20.

The semantics I use are found in the Bible and contemporary Greek writings. What you have written about me is inaccurate.
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:44 PM   #66
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Ya know Trapped, Ohio, and others, Serenity makes a valid point. In short, we weren't back there. And we don't have a clue of what it was like. It was a whole other world back then. They were flat earthers. They couldn't help it.
This presupposes that the Bible was written only by men and without divine inspiration and help, and couldn't possibly know with clarity man's real nature and what manifestations of the flesh would like like in the future . . . (because God can surely knows it and see the end from the beginning, right?)
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:50 PM   #67
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And if how Job depicts God is accurate, then, God is a trickster God ... and all bets are off.
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Okay.......awareness.......God loves us all. He "SO" loves us, as John 3:16 says. Love does conquer all. But guess what.....as you know.....His holiness and righteousness still have to be satisfied. Love doesn't NEGATE all. When we sinned, God the righteous judge has to punish wrongdoing, or else He wouldn't be a just God.
But Job doesn't depict God as just. What God does to Job is far from just. That's why I say God might be a trickster. Hey, I can be nutty, but I'm going by the word of God.
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:59 PM   #68
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But Job doesn't depict God as just. What God does to Job is far from just. That's why I say God might be a trickster. Hey, I can be nutty, but I'm going by the word of God.
It's all distorted when it passes thru you.

Why are you permitted to call God a TRICKSTER?

If I refer to you this way, immediately I am censored, but you regularly get away with it with impunity.

The story of Job reveals God's love and care for us, using trials to perfect our faith, exposing our pride and self-righteousness, providing us with a heavenly scene to expose the source of all evil, yet pointing to the coming Redeemer. Occurring in time after Abraham but before Moses, Job's story has become a source of learning and encouragement for all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, for all generations.
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Old 10-08-2020, 08:09 PM   #69
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No, you're not. It's all distorted when it passes thru you.
We must be looking thru different lenses.
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Old 10-08-2020, 10:10 PM   #70
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But Job doesn't depict God as just. What God does to Job is far from just. That's why I say God might be a trickster. Hey, I can be nutty, but I'm going by the word of God.
I do actually understand where you are coming from on the Job thing. That's one of those I have "put a pin in" to grapple with later when I have more time, because it's a common stumbling block to many.

A few thoughts though:

1. Since you and I are not the author of life, when we take the life of another, it's murder and a sin, because it's not ours to take. But God is the author of life, and He thus has the full right to give it and take it as He sees fit. Period. We are the clay and we talk back to the Potter, but it's just the facts. He has determined the length of our days.

2. We each think that we deserve a life without pain or suffering, fully energetic and healthy all the way to 102 years old, but that's not how it goes. Some live to 2. Some to 32. Some to 82. Most suffer a lot during those years. None of us have earned any right to live to the age we think we should be given to live to.

3. If you are a Christian, you know that people don't really die.....they just change location, if you will. When someone dies, we know their body is no longer alive, but their soul is still indeed alive. So while Job's kids lost their temporal, earthly life of suffering, only their body died, as for us all. In Job 3, Job even speaks of being in death as peace, rest, ease, and freedom.

As for Job himself? The torment he was put through? Yeah. Ya got me. Job 4:18 says "For He wounds, but He also binds; He strikes, but His hands also heal." Sounds like a human being I would be scared of, honestly. So I'm partially with you on this one.


Edit to add: sorry, I don't mean to veer away from the thread topic.
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Old 10-09-2020, 08:09 AM   #71
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I do actually understand where you are coming from on the Job thing. That's one of those I have "put a pin in" to grapple with later when I have more time, because it's a common stumbling block to many.

A few thoughts though:

1. Since you and I are not the author of life, when we take the life of another, it's murder and a sin, because it's not ours to take. But God is the author of life, and He thus has the full right to give it and take it as He sees fit. Period. We are the clay and we talk back to the Potter, but it's just the facts. He has determined the length of our days.

2. We each think that we deserve a life without pain or suffering, fully energetic and healthy all the way to 102 years old, but that's not how it goes. Some live to 2. Some to 32. Some to 82. Most suffer a lot during those years. None of us have earned any right to live to the age we think we should be given to live to.

3. If you are a Christian, you know that people don't really die.....they just change location, if you will. When someone dies, we know their body is no longer alive, but their soul is still indeed alive. So while Job's kids lost their temporal, earthly life of suffering, only their body died, as for us all. In Job 3, Job even speaks of being in death as peace, rest, ease, and freedom.

As for Job himself? The torment he was put through? Yeah. Ya got me. Job 4:18 says "For He wounds, but He also binds; He strikes, but His hands also heal." Sounds like a human being I would be scared of, honestly. So I'm partially with you on this one.


Edit to add: sorry, I don't mean to veer away from the thread topic.
Ha! The "topic police" won't come down too hard on this . . . let's see if we can tie it back into the topic. Yes, Job is a little troubling to us humans. I don't think I would call God a "Trickster," but I get it. (hard to trust someone if you see them as a trickster)

The Bible shows us He is a real person who gets upset and I'm sure is even pained by what He sees His creation has fallen into. And He makes various decisions that are way above our pay-grade and some actions seem off to us. But He is still the all-knowing Creator who certainly knows best (that's a huge understatement!). In Job's case, it reveals the behind-the-scene situation and God uses it all. But He is all-knowing and the Life-Giver, so it is His prerogative on how He does this, and Job gets this point clearly at the end. If the Potter decides to smash the clay vessel to start again and make it better, that's His prerogative. We're dealing with a Real Person here and we are but an image of Him at best.

And if He calls things out as being harmful to us (drunkenness, adultery, homosexuality, lying, etc.), He may let us keep doing these things. Or He may be merciful and cause some consequences to come our way that will cause us to turn to Him. In any case, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God - but it's also the best thing!
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Old 10-09-2020, 09:39 AM   #72
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As for Job himself? The torment he was put through? Yeah. Ya got me. Job 4:18 says "For He wounds, but He also binds; He strikes, but His hands also heal." Sounds like a human being I would be scared of, honestly. So I'm partially with you on this one.
You made some great points Trapped, but isn't Job's assessment here inaccurate? The beginning of Job makes it clear just who "wounds and strikes." Yes, God permitted it, but it is Satan who always does the evil to us. In His wisdom, God uses all the damages done by His adversary to perfect His seekers, though damaged by the fall. The encouragement drawn by all from Job, is not that we will understand "why" such and such is happening in our life, but that we are assured the God is sovereign and truly loves us.

Is not this the real result of the fall, Adam's disobediance in the garden? Nothing is easy, and all "easy" things become worthless to the children of God. All the precious things in life are not physical possessions, but things like love, faith, hope, etc. These don't come cheap. They all require testing and proving to make them valuable. Like Peter learned the hard way, "the proving of our faith more precious than gold."

Which man of God in the Bible or church history did not follow this narrow and difficult way? Adam tried the easy way, and thus he seemed to learn nothing. Yes, Job's suffering was extreme, because he established the groundwork, the example, for others. In this regard Job was a type of Christ; he was not punished for his own sins, rather he was clearly righteous according to God's demands. I think Job's raw cries are quite similar to David's and the Lord's on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" Yet unlike the Lord, Job was proud and righteous in his own mind. In the end, however, he repented, and God seemed to reward him like no other.
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Old 10-09-2020, 09:55 AM   #73
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Which man of God in the Bible or church history did not follow this narrow and difficult way? Adam tried the easy way, and thus he seemed to learn nothing. Yes, Job's suffering was extreme, because he established the groundwork, the example, for others. In this regard Job was a type of Christ; he was not punished for his own sins, rather he was clearly righteous according to God's demands. I think Job's raw cries are quite similar to David's and the Lord's on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" Yet unlike the Lord, Job was proud and righteous in his own mind. In the end, however, he repented, and God seemed to reward him like no other.
David's story is most encouraging! That is, God doesn't like sin and what it causes (pride & blindness & more hurt), but ultimately He is looking for a humble and contrite heart that just repents and comes to Him in simplicity.

So is there an application here, regarding this thread's topic?
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Old 10-09-2020, 10:11 AM   #74
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So is there an application here, regarding this thread's topic?
Sometimes, in the course of our discussions, comments must be made to correct gross misstatements.

This is something I learned from the LGBTQ+ Discussions.
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Old 10-09-2020, 10:15 AM   #75
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Such a wonderful response, I left it below.

But I was caught by your last line :

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Edit to add: sorry, I don't mean to veer away from the thread topic.
It's true, a discussion of Job is off thread topic. Sorry for that StG.

I didn't mean for that to happen. The BoJ doesn't speak for or against LGBTQ's.

Tho poorly, obviously, I was trying to use The BoJ to make us realize that we can't know the mind of God, can't write all of it, or understand all of it. And that might be true for Leviticus 18 as well.

So, not only do I think that Christians clobbering LGBTQ is sin, but there might be questions of using Leviticus 18 to clobber them.

Clobbering anyone is sin ... especially for Christians. Clobbering LGBTQ's is not proper Christian behavior. Not welcoming them in our Churches is not proper Christian behavior. Giving them a cold shoulder, or worse, is not proper Christian behavior. Not hugging them is not proper Christian behavior.

Christians doing that are sinning. Rejecting gays is a sin against God.

As you say, we're not the author of life ... so we're not the judge of it either. Let's leave that to God. Our job is to love our neighbors, even if we think they don't deserve it.

We're no longer in the age of stoning people, thank God. Leviticus 18 comes out of that age. We left the stoning age behind. Why not question the rest from that age? After all, The Book of Job comes out of that age.

Thanks for your marvelous and well thought out response ....
Harold

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I do actually understand where you are coming from on the Job thing. That's one of those I have "put a pin in" to grapple with later when I have more time, because it's a common stumbling block to many.

A few thoughts though:

1. Since you and I are not the author of life, when we take the life of another, it's murder and a sin, because it's not ours to take. But God is the author of life, and He thus has the full right to give it and take it as He sees fit. Period. We are the clay and we talk back to the Potter, but it's just the facts. He has determined the length of our days.

2. We each think that we deserve a life without pain or suffering, fully energetic and healthy all the way to 102 years old, but that's not how it goes. Some live to 2. Some to 32. Some to 82. Most suffer a lot during those years. None of us have earned any right to live to the age we think we should be given to live to.

3. If you are a Christian, you know that people don't really die.....they just change location, if you will. When someone dies, we know their body is no longer alive, but their soul is still indeed alive. So while Job's kids lost their temporal, earthly life of suffering, only their body died, as for us all. In Job 3, Job even speaks of being in death as peace, rest, ease, and freedom.

As for Job himself? The torment he was put through? Yeah. Ya got me. Job 4:18 says "For He wounds, but He also binds; He strikes, but His hands also heal." Sounds like a human being I would be scared of, honestly. So I'm partially with you on this one.


Edit to add: sorry, I don't mean to veer away from the thread topic.
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Old 10-09-2020, 10:26 AM   #76
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We're dealing with a Real Person here and we are but an image of Him at best.

And if He calls things out as being harmful to us (drunkenness, adultery, homosexuality, lying, etc.), He may let us keep doing these things. Or He may be merciful and cause some consequences to come our way that will cause us to turn to Him. In any case, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God - but it's also the best thing!
I guess we’ll have to see if God loves me enough to be merciful and “fall into the hands of the living God”. God blessed me with my beautiful wife and I have not been happier and enjoying him ever since! (For now there’s little consequence)
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Old 10-09-2020, 10:46 AM   #77
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Clobbering anyone is sin ... especially for Christians. Clobbering LGBTQ's is not proper Christian behavior. Not welcoming them in our Churches is not proper Christian behavior. Giving them a cold shoulder, or worse, is not proper Christian behavior. Not hugging them is not proper Christian behavior.

Christians doing that are sinning. Rejecting gays is a sin against God.
This is classic STRAW MAN.

NEWS FLASH: Christians are clobbering LGBTQ. Watch on YouTube.
These Christians are sinning! They are sinning against God Himself!

Ok ... Ok ... a little dramatic, BUT ... I dare say an honest response borne out of frustration to incessant trolling. And how many times have I said it? But awareness leads every conversation on Alt-Views to God-bashing, Bible-bashing, and Christian-bashing.*

But let me also ask. Is it a sin to reject the truths of the Bible? To smear God and Jesus as gays and tricksters? To give Christians the verbal "cold shoulder" at every opportunity?
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:09 PM   #78
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I guess we’ll have to see if God loves me enough to be merciful and “fall into the hands of the living God”. God blessed me with my beautiful wife and I have not been happier and enjoying him ever since! (For now there’s little consequence)
Well, good. Listen, I sure don't know exactly how He works . . . shoot, I don't even know what I'm gonna have for dinner tonight!

But this I know - He's got this! He cares for us, He's able, and He's promised amazing things to us and for us. We just need to keep our hearts soft toward Him and have ongoing conversations with Him.
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:14 PM   #79
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This is classic STRAW MAN.

NEWS FLASH: Christians are clobbering LGBTQ. Watch on YouTube.
These Christians are sinning! They are sinning against God Himself!

Ok ... Ok ... a little dramatic, BUT ... I dare say an honest response borne out of frustration to incessant trolling. And how many times have I said it? But awareness leads every conversation on Alt-Views to God-bashing, Bible-bashing, and Christian-bashing.*

But let me also ask. Is it a sin to reject the truths of the Bible? To smear God and Jesus as gays and tricksters? To give Christians the verbal "cold shoulder" at every opportunity?
I concur, although I wouldn't have said it quite like that perhaps. The "clobbering" thing, to me, is like pulling out the hate or race card - effective communication and everything comes to a screeching halt when those StrawMan cards are played, and people are then prone to respond in a defensive way - this tactic is childish in my book. (almost akin to name calling)

I haven't seen bashing of LGBTQ+ folks on this thread or the last one. Just because many of us understand our Bibles to say that homosexuality is one of those off-the-mark things is not clobbering!
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Old 10-09-2020, 04:21 PM   #80
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I concur, although I wouldn't have said it quite like that perhaps. The "clobbering" thing, to me, is like pulling out the hate or race card - effective communication and everything comes to a screeching halt when those StrawMan cards are played, and people are then prone to respond in a defensive way - this tactic is childish in my book. (almost akin to name calling)

I haven't seen bashing of LGBTQ+ folks on this thread or the last one. Just because many of us understand our Bibles to say that homosexuality is one of those off-the-mark things is not clobbering!
There's 13 verses in 1 Corinthians 13. Over twice as many as there is so called clobber verses in the entire Bible. We'd do best to stick to the 13.
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Old 10-09-2020, 04:48 PM   #81
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There's 13 verses in 1 Corinthians 13. Over twice as many as there is so called clobber verses in the entire Bible. We'd do best to stick to the 13.
Sure. Love. Correct. Doesn't mean there's not sin. Mentioning sin doesn't = so called clobbering. The Bible speaks to us in love. But if someone doesn't see a thing they are doing is off the mark, it's technically above my pay grade to show them -- other than show them the Word concerning it (and which would maybe save them).

But I guess the "facts" are in dispute, just like the Word of God and that God is love (i.e., "Trickster"). A complex system can be built up around anything to justify doing it, because it feels good to us to do it and our heart tells us it's OK . . .

Think I'll go get drunk and commit adultery ----> and then work on the complex theology to justify it later! (and yer job is just love me and agree that what I'm doing is all okay)
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Old 10-09-2020, 07:07 PM   #82
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Sure. Love. Correct. Doesn't mean there's not sin. Mentioning sin doesn't = so called clobbering. The Bible speaks to us in love. But if someone doesn't see a thing they are doing is off the mark, it's technically above my pay grade to show them -- other than show them the Word concerning it (and which would maybe save them).

But I guess the "facts" are in dispute, just like the Word of God and that God is love (i.e., "Trickster"). A complex system can be built up around anything to justify doing it, because it feels good to us to do it and our heart tells us it's OK . . .

Think I'll go get drunk and commit adultery ----> and then work on the complex theology to justify it later! (and yer job is just love me and agree that what I'm doing is all okay)
You hint doing no such thing. You just set up a straw clobber man. And we still love you.
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Old 10-09-2020, 07:40 PM   #83
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You made some great points Trapped, but isn't Job's assessment here inaccurate? The beginning of Job makes it clear just who "wounds and strikes." Yes, God permitted it, but it is Satan who always does the evil to us. In His wisdom, God uses all the damages done by His adversary to perfect His seekers, though damaged by the fall. The encouragement drawn by all from Job, is not that we will understand "why" such and such is happening in our life, but that we are assured the God is sovereign and truly loves us.

Is not this the real result of the fall, Adam's disobediance in the garden? Nothing is easy, and all "easy" things become worthless to the children of God. All the precious things in life are not physical possessions, but things like love, faith, hope, etc. These don't come cheap. They all require testing and proving to make them valuable. Like Peter learned the hard way, "the proving of our faith more precious than gold."

Which man of God in the Bible or church history did not follow this narrow and difficult way? Adam tried the easy way, and thus he seemed to learn nothing. Yes, Job's suffering was extreme, because he established the groundwork, the example, for others. In this regard Job was a type of Christ; he was not punished for his own sins, rather he was clearly righteous according to God's demands. I think Job's raw cries are quite similar to David's and the Lord's on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" Yet unlike the Lord, Job was proud and righteous in his own mind. In the end, however, he repented, and God seemed to reward him like no other.
I can only give some head-scratcher type responses on this topic. I read through much of Job last night (save some of the latter unhelpful chapters from his "friends"), but I recall a few things that furrowed my brow:

1. Satan does indeed come to God, and God grants him the permission to mess with Job's belongings/family but not Job himself, in chapter 1. But then at some point one of the people who narrowly escaped being killed in the events says something like "the fire of God came down from heaven" (Job 1:16).

2. Also Job's immediate response was "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

3. Then in Job 2:3, God says this, "Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”"

Incited Me against him to ruin him without cause??? What do we do with THOSE words from God's mouth?

4. Then in Job 2:10, Job responds to his wife this way, "“You speak as a foolish woman speaks,” he told her. “Should we accept from God only good and not adversity?” In all this, Job did not sin in what he said."

It seems Job is saying the adversity is "from God". And the scripture keeps saying Job didn't sin in what he said. If Job was off or wrong or blaming God for something God didn't do, then that would be identified as a sin. But it never identifies sin in Job's conduct or speaking.

5. And then in chapter 4 we get to Job's assessment about wounding/binding/striking/healing. We don't know yet if it's true or not, but, we see in point 7 below that it actually was.

6. In Job 38 or thereabouts God shows up in a swirl of wind and, frankly, comes across kind of arrogant and blustering about His power. Does He have a ton of power? Oh yeah. But to have basically zero compassion on the anguish and bewilderment of someone who did nothing to deserve the treatment He allowed and/or did, kind of, I mean, His actions just don't seem just here. I don't know what to say.

7. Then in Job 42:7-8, God says twice that Job was correct in what he said about God: "After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, He said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and your two friends. For you have not spoken about Me accurately, as My servant Job has. So now, take seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. Then My servant Job will pray for you, for I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken accurately about Me, as My servant Job has." As I mentioned in point 5, this means Job's comments about God hurting/wounding and healing are true. I just don't know what to do with that.

I know Job retracted his words and repented in chapter 42, but I honestly don't see why. The book repeatedly says he didn't sin in what he said. What is he retracting or repenting for if he didn't sin?

I don't want to derail this thread with this topic, a new one can be made if there is interest, but all that I wrote above just leaves me kind of ...... wanting some milk and cookies for comfort.
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Old 10-09-2020, 08:23 PM   #84
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I can only give some head-scratcher type responses on this topic. I read through much of Job last night (save some of the latter unhelpful chapters from his "friends"), but I recall a few things that furrowed my brow:

1. Satan does indeed come to God, and God grants him the permission to mess with Job's belongings/family but not Job himself, in chapter 1. But then at some point one of the people who narrowly escaped being killed in the events says something like "the fire of God came down from heaven" (Job 1:16).

2. Also Job's immediate response was "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

3. Then in Job 2:3, God says this, "Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”"

Incited Me against him to ruin him without cause??? What do we do with THOSE words from God's mouth?

4. Then in Job 2:10, Job responds to his wife this way, "“You speak as a foolish woman speaks,” he told her. “Should we accept from God only good and not adversity?” In all this, Job did not sin in what he said."

It seems Job is saying the adversity is "from God". And the scripture keeps saying Job didn't sin in what he said. If Job was off or wrong or blaming God for something God didn't do, then that would be identified as a sin. But it never identifies sin in Job's conduct or speaking.

5. And then in chapter 4 we get to Job's assessment about wounding/binding/striking/healing. We don't know yet if it's true or not, but, we see in point 7 below that it actually was.

6. In Job 38 or thereabouts God shows up in a swirl of wind and, frankly, comes across kind of arrogant and blustering about His power. Does He have a ton of power? Oh yeah. But to have basically zero compassion on the anguish and bewilderment of someone who did nothing to deserve the treatment He allowed and/or did, kind of, I mean, His actions just don't seem just here. I don't know what to say.

7. Then in Job 42:7-8, God says twice that Job was correct in what he said about God: "After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, He said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and your two friends. For you have not spoken about Me accurately, as My servant Job has. So now, take seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. Then My servant Job will pray for you, for I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken accurately about Me, as My servant Job has." As I mentioned in point 5, this means Job's comments about God hurting/wounding and healing are true. I just don't know what to do with that.

I know Job retracted his words and repented in chapter 42, but I honestly don't see why. The book repeatedly says he didn't sin in what he said. What is he retracting or repenting for if he didn't sin?

I don't want to derail this thread with this topic, a new one can be made if there is interest, but all that I wrote above just leaves me kind of ...... wanting some milk and cookies for comfort.
You make some good points. Whenever I read Job, it just confuses me why God seems to treat his friends with more compassion that Job himself. Maybe there were earlier editions with more details that didnt survive antiquity? After all, some historians do place Job as being older than Genesis, due to the fact that Satan is convwrsing with God with a full on conversation. so maybe God wasnt as “evolved” and Satan had a different role in God’s universe at the time? Just my speculation.

https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/chr...the-bible.aspx
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Old 10-09-2020, 10:29 PM   #85
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I can only give some head-scratcher type responses on this topic. I read through much of Job last night (save some of the latter unhelpful chapters from his "friends"), but I recall a few things that furrowed my brow:

1. Satan does indeed come to God, and God grants him the permission to mess with Job's belongings/family but not Job himself, in chapter 1. But then at some point one of the people who narrowly escaped being killed in the events says something like "the fire of God came down from heaven" (Job 1:16).

2. Also Job's immediate response was "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

3. Then in Job 2:3, God says this, "Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”"

Incited Me against him to ruin him without cause??? What do we do with THOSE words from God's mouth?

4. Then in Job 2:10, Job responds to his wife this way, "“You speak as a foolish woman speaks,” he told her. “Should we accept from God only good and not adversity?” In all this, Job did not sin in what he said."

It seems Job is saying the adversity is "from God". And the scripture keeps saying Job didn't sin in what he said. If Job was off or wrong or blaming God for something God didn't do, then that would be identified as a sin. But it never identifies sin in Job's conduct or speaking.

5. And then in chapter 4 we get to Job's assessment about wounding/binding/striking/healing. We don't know yet if it's true or not, but, we see in point 7 below that it actually was.

6. In Job 38 or thereabouts God shows up in a swirl of wind and, frankly, comes across kind of arrogant and blustering about His power. Does He have a ton of power? Oh yeah. But to have basically zero compassion on the anguish and bewilderment of someone who did nothing to deserve the treatment He allowed and/or did, kind of, I mean, His actions just don't seem just here. I don't know what to say.

7. Then in Job 42:7-8, God says twice that Job was correct in what he said about God: "After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, He said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and your two friends. For you have not spoken about Me accurately, as My servant Job has. So now, take seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. Then My servant Job will pray for you, for I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken accurately about Me, as My servant Job has." As I mentioned in point 5, this means Job's comments about God hurting/wounding and healing are true. I just don't know what to do with that.

I know Job retracted his words and repented in chapter 42, but I honestly don't see why. The book repeatedly says he didn't sin in what he said. What is he retracting or repenting for if he didn't sin?

I don't want to derail this thread with this topic, a new one can be made if there is interest, but all that I wrote above just leaves me kind of ...... wanting some milk and cookies for comfort.
That's a pretty good rundown of Job. I can add much to it. I'll just say that when I read the book it makes me pissed off at God. I don't, or didn't, see Him as that mean, cold, and indifferent, to Job's significant heart-wrenching losses, and abject suffering and torture.

It certainly makes me wonder if the book is the actual word of God. Maybe it should be considered apocryphal.
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Old 10-10-2020, 04:30 AM   #86
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I haven't seen bashing of LGBTQ+ folks on this thread or the last one. Just because many of us understand our Bibles to say that homosexuality is one of those off-the-mark things is not clobbering!
Forget the terminology of clobbering for a sec. Do you know of any other group of people whom when Christians preach out of love regarding other topics, not just homosexuality being a sin, that these people have suicidal thoughts? I think that is the main concern. Like why ex-gay ministries or conversion therapies do more harm than good even when Christians out of the kindness of their hearts are trying to “save” others. These kids sent to these boot camps end up with major depression and suicide attempts, all while reading the bible or being taught but feeling terrible that they cant change and the pain is so horrible they’d rather die. Why is it like that?
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:14 AM   #87
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I don't want to derail this thread with this topic, a new one can be made if there is interest, but all that I wrote above just leaves me kind of ...... wanting some milk and cookies for comfort.
Here's a couple more verses for you -- Isaiah 53:9-10 -- far worse than the ones you posted. You gonna need far more than milk and cookies to find comfort with that mindset.
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:36 AM   #88
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Forget the terminology of clobbering for a sec. Do you know of any other group of people whom when Christians preach out of love regarding other topics, not just homosexuality being a sin, that these people have suicidal thoughts? I think that is the main concern. Like why ex-gay ministries or conversion therapies do more harm than good even when Christians out of the kindness of their hearts are trying to “save” others. These kids sent to these boot camps end up with major depression and suicide attempts, all while reading the bible or being taught but feeling terrible that they cant change and the pain is so horrible they’d rather die. Why is it like that?
Not sure - is that really the case? If so, what is the cause of the suicidal thoughts? Is it the action other Christians are taking or something speaking directly to the individual? There are powers of darkness around us wanting to destroy us.
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:38 AM   #89
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You hint doing no such thing. You just set up a straw clobber man. And we still love you.
Thank you.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:26 AM   #90
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Not sure - is that really the case? If so, what is the cause of the suicidal thoughts? Is it the action other Christians are taking or something speaking directly to the individual? There are powers of darkness around us wanting to destroy us.
The logic I sometimes read is often overwhelming.

Do you have any idea how many suicides have occurred just after being arrested or sentenced for a crime? That alone should persuade us to abolish the police and the court system.
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:29 AM   #91
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The logic I sometimes read is often overwhelming.

Do you have any idea how many suicides have occurred just after being arrested or sentenced for a crime? That alone should persuade us to abolish the police and the court system.
There is one who condemns blood-washed Christians and that is the enemy who wants to steal, kill and destroy us. Therefore it is a little bit of a quandary to see damaging sin behaviors in other Christians, yet not take the side of the accuser of the brethren in our speaking.

Even though we do our best to speak the truth in love, others may receive it as condemning. And our speaking may also fall quite short - only Christ in and through us can properly address such behaviors in others I think, and I don't do a very good job most times of letting Him do that through me!
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:35 AM   #92
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There is one who condemns blood-washed Christians and that is the enemy who wants to steal, kill and destroy us. Therefore it is a little bit of a quandary to see damaging sin behaviors in other Christians, yet not take the side of the accuser of the brethren in our speaking.

Even though we do our best to speak the truth in love, others may receive it as condemning. And our speaking may also fall quite short - only Christ in and through us can properly address such behaviors in others I think, and I don't do a very good job most times of letting Him do that through me!
The collective conscience of society used to have an impact on morality, but agencies like the SPLC and the ACLU have damaged that impact both on our legal system and our collective conscience. The growing progressive sentiment of modern society is moving to ban such books as the Bible which used to guide civilized societies. Then, of course, they will completely remake God in their own progressive image. I see that regularly happening.
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:01 AM   #93
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The collective conscience of society used to have an impact on morality, but agencies like the SPLC and the ACLU have damaged that impact both on our legal system and our collective conscience. The growing progressive sentiment of modern society is moving to ban such books as the Bible which used to guide civilized societies. Then, of course, they will completely remake God in their own progressive image. I see that regularly happening.
It is actually pretty easy to see that happening. The worldly system, headed up by the devil, is pushing an anti-God/Bible agenda under the guise of "enlightenment." As scripture says, he can take the form of an angle of light, so people are deceived into thinking it is all a good thing.

Scripture is narrow. It calls out sin of all types for what it is (a tool to steal, kill & destroy man) and convicts men of their error, so they feel the need for the Savior. But the headlong rush of "it doesn't hurt anyone and feels so good" has a numbing & blinding effect so that the need for the Savior is hidden from them until (hopefully not) too late.

I think the day is coming quickly when blinded men will rush upon Christians, much like when Stephen was stoned . . .
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:36 AM   #94
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The logic I sometimes read is often overwhelming.

Do you have any idea how many suicides have occurred just after being arrested or sentenced for a crime? That alone should persuade us to abolish the police and the court system.
I thought you are fervently pro-life. So suicide should concern you if social pressure from family and religious community, are causing gays to consider suicide.
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Old 10-10-2020, 12:23 PM   #95
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I thought you are fervently pro-life. So suicide should concern you if social pressure from family and religious community, are causing gays to consider suicide.
No one wants anybody to commit suicide - then the devil wins. Societal pressures, apart from God and "religious do-gooders" operating out of the flesh, are not good. The message, as always, is we need The Savior.
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Old 10-10-2020, 12:28 PM   #96
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No one wants anybody to commit suicide - then the devil wins. Societal pressures, apart from God and "religious do-gooders" operating out of the flesh, are not good. The message, as always, is we need The Savior.
Are you saying that gay conversion therapy is operating out of the flesh, not God? Or that you’re taking responsibility away from these programs and blaming “darkness” or Satan for leading lgbtq youth to commit suicide? Consider these two people’s experiences in gay conversion therapy:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.co...ay/%3famp=true

https://www.thecut.com/2018/01/conve...xperience.html
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Old 10-10-2020, 12:31 PM   #97
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The logic I sometimes read is often overwhelming.

Do you have any idea how many suicides have occurred just after being arrested or sentenced for a crime? That alone should persuade us to abolish the police and the court system.
Comparing a person who commited a crime to a person just having same sex attractions is illogical
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Old 10-10-2020, 12:50 PM   #98
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Are you saying that gay conversion therapy is operating out of the flesh, not God? Or that you’re taking responsibility away from these programs and blaming “darkness” or Satan for leading lgbtq youth to commit suicide? Consider these two people’s experiences in gay conversion therapy:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.co...ay/%3famp=true

https://www.thecut.com/2018/01/conve...xperience.html
Yeah, I don't know about these "conversion therapies" ---> seems like a bunch of manmade psychology (flesh) to me. Can God use others in something like that to affect real, lasting change? Sure, but I suspect it's usually the flesh trying to make legalistic changes in others (Ohio may disagree).

Overall, my views on such things generally follow the reasoning Cal Thomas and Ed Dobson put forth in their 1999 book, "Blinded by Might; Why the religious right can't save America." Basically it says that we might try to do a whole bunch of things to correct the moral situation, but it won't work well because no matter how well-intentioned, it's largely just the religious flesh trying to correct the unmoral flesh. America, and all it's issues, needs The Savior. Period.
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Old 10-10-2020, 01:46 PM   #99
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I thought you are fervently pro-life. So suicide should concern you if social pressure from family and religious community, are causing gays to consider suicide.
I am concerned about anyone who would want to commit suicide.

But, as your habit always is, you put the blame on Christians. Have you considered perhaps their conscience convicted them, and it was not social pressure, but conscience conviction by the Spirit of God, with the goal to bring them to repentance? (John 16.8)

Regret, without repentance and forgiveness, can lead people to despair, depression, and suicide. It is insane to think that there would be no suicide if there was no Bible, no Christians, no laws, no moral norms. But that's the implication you sometimes portray.
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Old 10-10-2020, 01:50 PM   #100
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Comparing a person who commited a crime to a person just having same sex attractions is illogical
The point is that we should not blame the gospel of grace, nor the laws of a society, for someone who takes their own life.
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Old 10-10-2020, 01:55 PM   #101
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Yeah, I don't know about these "conversion therapies" ---> seems like a bunch of manmade psychology (flesh) to me. Can God use others in something like that to affect real, lasting change? Sure, but I suspect it's usually the flesh trying to make legalistic changes in others (Ohio may disagree).

Overall, my views on such things generally follow the reasoning Cal Thomas and Ed Dobson put forth in their 1999 book, "Blinded by Might; Why the religious right can't save America." Basically it says that we might try to do a whole bunch of things to correct the moral situation, but it won't work well because no matter how well-intentioned, it's largely just the religious flesh trying to correct the unmoral flesh. America, and all it's issues, needs The Savior. Period.
Yes, we need a Savior, but a civil society also needs laws, police, and courts to protect its people, otherwise we have lawlessness.

The Bible often mentions wise counsel. I don't think that should be considered "man made psychology (flesh)." Even Paul says that the Law is good and is a child conductor.
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Old 10-10-2020, 02:57 PM   #102
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Yes, we need a Savior, but a civil society also needs laws, police, and courts to protect its people, otherwise we have lawlessness.

The Bible often mentions wise counsel. I don't think that should be considered "man made psychology (flesh)." Even Paul says that the Law is good and is a child conductor.
Of course. But we all know the flesh produces nothing, and there is a lot of it being produced by Christians . . .
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Old 10-10-2020, 05:37 PM   #103
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I am concerned about anyone who would want to commit suicide.

But, as your habit always is, you put the blame on Christians. Have you considered perhaps their conscience convicted them, and it was not social pressure, but conscience conviction by the Spirit of God, with the goal to bring them to repentance? (John 16.8)

Regret, without repentance and forgiveness, can lead people to despair, depression, and suicide. It is insane to think that there would be no suicide if there was no Bible, no Christians, no laws, no moral norms. But that's the implication you sometimes portray.
True. To my surprise, more people consider suicide than I thought. Then I joined a suicide hotline. That was not a happy time. I've never had that problem. Maybe you just don't know gays personally well enough to considered it. And I didn't say Christian, I said religious.

Religion of all types are hard on gays. Our sister Serenity, for example, grew up in the LC. Coming out there, or being shoved out, would be such a hard psychological impact, I can't see how suicidal considerations wouldn't come to be a serious resolution.

Is there only enough religion in the world to make us hate each other, but not enough for us the love each other? Do we have to hate a group? Any group? . . . and a new one, when its for whatever reason no longer a hateable group? Is that why our gods hate?

Blacks were a easy group to hate. They're color coded. But that's no longer socially acceptable. Right now, it's gays. And socially caused dejection, of any kind, will bring suicide to the surface of any nervous system.

And pro-lifers should be concerned.
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Old 10-10-2020, 05:46 PM   #104
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Of course. But we all know the flesh produces nothing, and there is a lot of it being produced by Christians . . .
If we blame the flesh then we're all in trouble. We're all 100% flesh thru and thru ... and we have to tend to it 24/7. That's the nature of being fleshly beings. We can't escape it. It places demands on us constantly ... and everyday of our lives.
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Old 10-10-2020, 06:03 PM   #105
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If we blame the flesh then we're all in trouble. We're all 100% flesh thru and thru ... and we have to tend to it 24/7. That's the nature of being fleshly beings. We can't escape it. It places demands on us constantly ... and everyday of our lives.
Au contraire mon frère! As Christians with the NEW BIRTH that is not our nature any more! We have been born from above and made partakers of the divine nature. But we still have the flesh, however, which is not our "nature" or who we are.
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Old 10-10-2020, 06:20 PM   #106
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True. To my surprise, more people consider suicide than I thought. Then I joined a suicide hotline. That was not a happy time. I've never had that problem. Maybe you just don't know gays personally well enough to considered it. And I didn't say Christian, I said religious.

Religion of all types are hard on gays. Our sister Serenity, for example, grew up in the LC. Coming out there, or being shoved out, would be such a hard psychological impact, I can't see how suicidal considerations wouldn't come to be a serious resolution.

Is there only enough religion in the world to make us hate each other, but not enough for us the love each other? Do we have to hate a group? Any group? . . . and a new one, when its for whatever reason no longer a hateable group? Is that why our gods hate?

Blacks were a easy group to hate. They're color coded. But that's no longer socially acceptable. Right now, it's gays. And socially caused dejection, of any kind, will bring suicide to the surface of any nervous system.

And pro-lifers should be concerned.
I disagree with many of your claims.

I don't think we should lump all *religious people* together. The LC is far more archaic and bigoted than the general Christian public. It bothers me to see all the criticisms against the US in the 21st Century. LGBTQ have the right to marry, and with hate crimes legislation, their lives are more valuable, and Ambassador Rick Grenell said Trump is the most gay-friendly president ever. All the LGBTQ community has to do is visit the many Communist countries or Muslim countries, and they will quickly gain a renewed appreciation for the many perks and liberties our great country has to offer them.

Who hates groups? Let's be honest here in the 21st century America. No one is targeting Blacks, Gays, or the Special Needs. There is, however, one group of people who daily are at risk. Who are regularly targeted for extinction. Who die because of somebody else's "rights" and conveniences. Who alone these days need our protection. That would be, of course, the unborn. Sorry, but this is absolutely true.
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Old 10-10-2020, 06:56 PM   #107
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That would be, of course, the unborn. Sorry, but this is absolutely true.
The problem of the unborn is that some of them are gay.
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:53 PM   #108
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The problem of the unborn is that some of them are gay.
Huh? Is that some sick joke?

Some are women. Some are black. Some are Hispanic.

But all deserve to LIVE! Don't they?

And until you begin to support the unborn, those most innocent and defenseless, every one of them absolute victims in every regard, then your passion for the other hurting folks is just fake. And hypocritical.
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:49 PM   #109
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I disagree with many of your claims LGBTQ have the right to marry, and with hate crimes legislation, their lives are more valuable, and Ambassador Rick Grenell said Trump is the most gay-friendly president ever. All the LGBTQ community has to do is visit the many Communist countries or Muslim countries, and they will quickly gain a renewed appreciation for the many perks and liberties our great country has to offer them.
Why did the Trump administration take off lgbtq content from the federal websites when Trump became president? It took a long time for the US to accept gay marriage, behind several countries actually. The Obama administration, not the Trump administration, Ruth Ginsburg made same sex marriage legal. that was only a few years ago. Consider this article regarding medical rights that target lgbtq: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/1130907001
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:50 PM   #110
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Huh? Is that some sick joke?

Some are women. Some are black. Some are Hispanic.

But all deserve to LIVE! Don't they?

And until you begin to support the unborn, those most innocent and defenseless, every one of them absolute victims in every regard, then your passion for the other hurting folks is just fake. And hypocritical.
I think awareness meant this as sarcasm
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:59 PM   #111
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I am concerned about anyone who would want to commit suicide.

But, as your habit always is, you put the blame on Christians. Have you considered perhaps their conscience convicted them, and it was not social pressure, but conscience conviction by the Spirit of God, with the goal to bring them to repentance? (John 16.8)

Regret, without repentance and forgiveness, can lead people to despair, depression, and suicide. It is insane to think that there would be no suicide if there was no Bible, no Christians, no laws, no moral norms. But that's the implication you sometimes portray.
This was definitely not my experience. Ostracization and bullying leads to suicide for lgbtq. So no, it wasnt my conscience that led me to have suicidal thoughts. It was despair from losing my “family” community, thinking that everyone I ever knew ( who all happen to be Christians in the LC) hates me and I would rather be better off dead, leading me to even believe God hates me like poison (as some sisters called me) because everyone tells me I am an “abomination”. If you have not experienced such a thing, you will never know, so do not assume to know. So yes, I blame Christians, but only the ignorant ones who dont know. But now you know.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:09 PM   #112
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Huh? Is that some sick joke?

Some are women. Some are black. Some are Hispanic.

But all deserve to LIVE! Don't they?

And until you begin to support the unborn, those most innocent and defenseless, every one of them absolute victims in every regard, then your passion for the other hurting folks is just fake. And hypocritical.
I found it smart to support the woman ... regardless of her choice. But that's just me. To each his or her own. Force is not conducive to a happy healthy relationship, gay, straight, or otherwise.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:31 PM   #113
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I think awareness meant this as sarcasm
Yes and No. I think it was more about the irony of pro-lifers caring about the unborn gays before birth but not so much after birth.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:40 PM   #114
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I found it smart to support the woman ... regardless of her choice. But that's just me. To each his or her own. Force is not conducive to a happy healthy relationship, gay, straight, or otherwise.
I support women too, and not just the ones you mentioned, but I also support the unborn women.

How can we support the women who's "rights" or her "choice" includes the murder of others?

Isn't that the same as a KKK white supremacist who says he has the "right" and the "choice" to live in a community without blacks?

And isn't that the same as a bigoted homophobe who claims to have the "right" and the "choice" to live in a straight community without LGBT?

Don't you think that the time has finally come to end all so-called civil rights and personal choices which in any way damage the life of another?
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:46 PM   #115
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Yes and No. I think it was more about the irony of pro-lifers caring about the unborn gays before birth but not so much after birth.
This is a bigoted statement categorizing all pro-life people as anti-gay.
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:15 AM   #116
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This is a bigoted statement categorizing all pro-life people as anti-gay.
Awareness and Ohio, I think we should get back to discussing LGBTQ. We can all start a thread on abortion if you’d like but I realize we keep going off on tangents. StG, what do you think?
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:43 AM   #117
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Awareness and Ohio, I think we should get back to discussing LGBTQ. We can all start a thread on abortion if you’d like but I realize we keep going off on tangents. StG, what do you think?
Amen to that.
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:27 AM   #118
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Why did the Trump administration take off lgbtq content from the federal websites when Trump became president? It took a long time for the US to accept gay marriage, behind several countries actually. The Obama administration, not the Trump administration, Ruth Ginsburg made same sex marriage legal. that was only a few years ago. Consider this article regarding medical rights that target lgbtq: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/1130907001
That article is about protecting religious liberties. Log Cabin Republicans and OUTspoken point to how much Trump has done to support them.

There are millions of articles out there against Trump. It's all political. You can find an article on google to say anything you want.
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:34 AM   #119
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This was definitely not my experience. Ostracization and bullying leads to suicide for lgbtq. So no, it wasnt my conscience that led me to have suicidal thoughts. It was despair from losing my “family” community, thinking that everyone I ever knew ( who all happen to be Christians in the LC) hates me and I would rather be better off dead, leading me to even believe God hates me like poison (as some sisters called me) because everyone tells me I am an “abomination”. If you have not experienced such a thing, you will never know, so do not assume to know. So yes, I blame Christians, but only the ignorant ones who dont know. But now you know.
Is this not bigotry? Blaming all Christians because your family hates you and wanted you dead? So, if all of your family was overweight, would you hate all fat people for the way you were treated?

Didn't you say that your family is Asian? I may be wrong. But the animosity you faced could be cultural or group based, and not indicative of every Christian.
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:52 AM   #120
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Awareness and Ohio, I think we should get back to discussing LGBTQ. We can all start a thread on abortion if you’d like but I realize we keep going off on tangents. StG, what do you think?
Yes, I took a little break (wife's B-day party) and come back and there are a dozen messages with Ohio & awareness going at some sidebar with a vengeance . . . I actually find it a little amusing . . . but yes . . . the topic. It looks like we've sorta already veered back on track, so . . . (they just need to be reminded & encouraged to do so from time to time).
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:36 AM   #121
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Didn't you say that your family is Asian? I may be wrong. But the animosity you faced could be cultural or group based, and not indicative of every Christian.
Every Christian who? And I think, no I know, that Serenity knows the source of the ideology her parents used to show animosity toward her being gay.

In fact, they took her to the LC in Taiwan, hoping that it would help her to get over her gay 'phase.' But it didn't work. When they got there the LC there knew she was gay.

And just because the LC is against the LGBTQ doesn't mean "all Christians" are. But it is likely that every Christian Bible literalist is a group that can be called "all Christians" that show animosity toward LGBTQ.

And I can't be totally certain, but I think you are in that group. Yes or no?
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:51 AM   #122
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Every Christian who? And I think, no I know, that Serenity knows the source of the ideology her parents used to show animosity toward her being gay.

In fact, they took her to the LC in Taiwan, hoping that it would help her to get over her gay 'phase.' But it didn't work. When they got there the LC there knew she was gay.

And just because the LC is against the LGBTQ doesn't mean "all Christians" are. But it is likely that every Christian Bible literalist is a group that can be called "all Christians" that show animosity toward LGBTQ.

And I can't be totally certain, but I think you are in that group. Yes or no?
Isn't your line of thinking the basic definition of bigotry?

But, no, I'm not a Taiwanese in the LC. Thanks for asking.

And I am not a Bible "literalist" whatever that is. Stop that!

And here is an article on LGBT rights in China.
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Old 10-11-2020, 10:41 AM   #123
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I was going to write a post, but turned to google to get help with some phrasing, and found an article already written that encapsulates my thought better than I could have written it. I also think this article dovetails somewhat into StG's line of inquiry about homosexual acts being "off the mark".

Here's the link. This is standard apologetics/logic stuff:

https://www.str.org/w/homosexuality-...ought-fallacy-

I would tighten up his words to say "homosexual sex is unnatural" rather than homosexuality, which would just imply the attractions. I'm consistently trying to make a distinction between the feelings and the acts, the former not being a sin, and the latter being a sin, at least in my grounding of it.

To me, this is like looking at a pile of hex nuts and bolts, and thinking it's totally normal to try to use two hex nuts to assemble a bookshelf. Can you put two hex nuts next to each other? Sure you can. But it's obvious it's "off the mark" of how nuts and bolts were designed to be used in conjunction with each other.

And by the way, this is not an argument related to procreation. I'm just talking about the design for use, not what's produced from the designed use.
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:04 PM   #124
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I was going to write a post, but turned to google to get help with some phrasing, and found an article already written that encapsulates my thought better than I could have written it. I also think this article dovetails somewhat into StG's line of inquiry about homosexual acts being "off the mark".

Here's the link. This is standard apologetics/logic stuff:

https://www.str.org/w/homosexuality-...ought-fallacy-

I would tighten up his words to say "homosexual sex is unnatural" rather than homosexuality, which would just imply the attractions. I'm consistently trying to make a distinction between the feelings and the acts, the former not being a sin, and the latter being a sin, at least in my grounding of it.

To me, this is like looking at a pile of hex nuts and bolts, and thinking it's totally normal to try to use two hex nuts to assemble a bookshelf. Can you put two hex nuts next to each other? Sure you can. But it's obvious it's "off the mark" of how nuts and bolts were designed to be used in conjunction with each other.

And by the way, this is not an argument related to procreation. I'm just talking about the design for use, not what's produced from the designed use.
Then what is the line of reasoning for masturbation among heterosexuals? Homosexual sex is mostly masturbation if you think about it. Or people who are born intersex?
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:05 PM   #125
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Isn't your line of thinking the basic definition of bigotry?

But, no, I'm not a Taiwanese in the LC. Thanks for asking.

And I am not a Bible "literalist" whatever that is. Stop that!

And here is an article on LGBT rights in China.
Taiwan is not the same as China. They have legalized same sex marriage and there’s pride parades. Two of my cousins who are Christian but not LC think homosexuality is not off the mark.
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:10 PM   #126
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Is this not bigotry? Blaming all Christians because your family hates you and wanted you dead? So, if all of your family was overweight, would you hate all fat people for the way you were treated?

Didn't you say that your family is Asian? I may be wrong. But the animosity you faced could be cultural or group based, and not indicative of every Christian.
Stop trying to excuse LC’s bad behavior. I said “family” in quotation marks meaning I considered the LC sisters and brothers as my family. This was in the entire sister’s house and their families and the news traveled to “higher ups”. In the fellowship meetingns, there were people accusing whom I’ve never met, but they were the elders. and most of the serving ones were white if you needed to know.

Religion IS a part of culture.
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:12 PM   #127
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That article is about protecting religious liberties. Log Cabin Republicans and OUTspoken point to how much Trump has done to support them.

There are millions of articles out there against Trump. It's all political. You can find an article on google to say anything you want.
But you cannot ignore the fact hat the lgbtq website disappeared overnight among the federal ones.
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Old 10-11-2020, 01:26 PM   #128
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I was going to write a post, but turned to google to get help with some phrasing, and found an article already written that encapsulates my thought better than I could have written it. I also think this article dovetails somewhat into StG's line of inquiry about homosexual acts being "off the mark".

Here's the link. This is standard apologetics/logic stuff:

https://www.str.org/w/homosexuality-...ought-fallacy-

I would tighten up his words to say "homosexual sex is unnatural" rather than homosexuality, which would just imply the attractions. I'm consistently trying to make a distinction between the feelings and the acts, the former not being a sin, and the latter being a sin, at least in my grounding of it.

To me, this is like looking at a pile of hex nuts and bolts, and thinking it's totally normal to try to use two hex nuts to assemble a bookshelf. Can you put two hex nuts next to each other? Sure you can. But it's obvious it's "off the mark" of how nuts and bolts were designed to be used in conjunction with each other.

And by the way, this is not an argument related to procreation. I'm just talking about the design for use, not what's produced from the designed use.
I think it's more complex than the nut fits the bolt.

I've mentioned a brother in the LC, that came out as gay to his wife, 3 kids, parents, and the LC. I was out of the LC for about 6 months at that time. It didn't bother me that he was gay. I stayed friends with him for years.

And I picked and picked at his brains to try to determine what made him gay. To no avail. Then he eventually explained it to me.

Here's how it happened. He and his lover worked as programmers for a large utility company. There they made friends with a female programmer. She didn't know they were gay, and was hurt when her advances were rejected.

At Halloween, they went together to Oktoberfest in Key West. They got drunk. When they got back to their room she was inebriated out of her gourd. So they decided to give her whats she's been begging for. They took turns.

This blew my mind on many levels. I said, John, you told me you didn't like lady parts. He said, "I'm not gay for the sex ; lady parts are made for male parts. It's the best. I'm gay for romance with men.

And there it was. That's why I say it's more complex than a nut and bolt. Human's aren't robots.
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Old 10-11-2020, 02:12 PM   #129
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But you cannot ignore the fact hat the lgbtq website disappeared overnight among the federal ones.
Websites, twitter accounts, news blurbs, etc. constantly disappear overnight. Doesn't sound like a nefarious plot.
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Old 10-11-2020, 02:17 PM   #130
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And there it was. That's why I say it's more complex than a nut and bolt. Human's aren't robots.
And there we have it folks: perfect justification for LGBT: Humans are not robots.
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Old 10-11-2020, 02:58 PM   #131
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I was going to write a post, but turned to google to get help with some phrasing, and found an article already written that encapsulates my thought better than I could have written it. I also think this article dovetails somewhat into StG's line of inquiry about homosexual acts being "off the mark".

Here's the link. This is standard apologetics/logic stuff:

https://www.str.org/w/homosexuality-...ought-fallacy-

I would tighten up his words to say "homosexual sex is unnatural" rather than homosexuality, which would just imply the attractions. I'm consistently trying to make a distinction between the feelings and the acts, the former not being a sin, and the latter being a sin, at least in my grounding of it.

To me, this is like looking at a pile of hex nuts and bolts, and thinking it's totally normal to try to use two hex nuts to assemble a bookshelf. Can you put two hex nuts next to each other? Sure you can. But it's obvious it's "off the mark" of how nuts and bolts were designed to be used in conjunction with each other.

And by the way, this is not an argument related to procreation. I'm just talking about the design for use, not what's produced from the designed use.
Trapped - that linked article was a pretty cerebral argument that I didn't completely follow part of the time, but I believe I get the point.

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This blew my mind on many levels. I said, John, you told me you didn't like lady parts. He said, "I'm not gay for the sex ; lady parts are made for male parts. It's the best. I'm gay for romance with men.
That's interesting . . . have to think about that for a bit. The gay man acknowledged that one sexual part (female) was designed for another part (male), but is choosing to ignore that fact and go against the design purpose, in order to have a romantic relationship with another man. Hmmmmmm
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Old 10-11-2020, 04:06 PM   #132
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I think it's more complex than the nut fits the bolt.

I've mentioned a brother in the LC, that came out as gay to his wife, 3 kids, parents, and the LC. I was out of the LC for about 6 months at that time. It didn't bother me that he was gay. I stayed friends with him for years.

And I picked and picked at his brains to try to determine what made him gay. To no avail. Then he eventually explained it to me.

Here's how it happened. He and his lover worked as programmers for a large utility company. There they made friends with a female programmer. She didn't know they were gay, and was hurt when her advances were rejected.

At Halloween, they went together to Oktoberfest in Key West. They got drunk. When they got back to their room she was inebriated out of her gourd. So they decided to give her whats she's been begging for. They took turns.

This blew my mind on many levels. I said, John, you told me you didn't like lady parts. He said, "I'm not gay for the sex ; lady parts are made for male parts. It's the best. I'm gay for romance with men.

And there it was. That's why I say it's more complex than a nut and bolt. Human's aren't robots.
He’s bisexual homoromantic.
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible...d-homoromantic
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Old 10-11-2020, 04:21 PM   #133
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Is there another alphabet for that or is included in the + sign?
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Old 10-11-2020, 04:42 PM   #134
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He’s bisexual homoromantic.
Truly amazing how many new diseases and pandemics are infecting the human race in these last days.
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Old 10-11-2020, 04:45 PM   #135
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Sometimes the body parts just get in the way. But my question is, is homoromanticism sin? David and Jonathan comes to mind. Clearly they had a romance going on. Would what they had be called homoromantic? And was it sin?
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Old 10-11-2020, 04:48 PM   #136
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He’s bisexual homoromantic.
Sorry but......
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:01 PM   #137
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Is there another alphabet for that or is included in the + sign?
No it’s this..
What is the difference between romantic orientation and sexual orientation?

Romantic orientation indicates the gender with which a person is likely to have a relationship or fall in love. This does not necessarily have to involve sex. This means that some people can have different sexual and romantic orientations, based on the perspective that sexual attraction is just a single component of a larger dynamic. For example, someone might be sexually attracted to more than one gender (bisexual) but might only be able to see themselves in a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender (homoromantic).
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:03 PM   #138
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Sometimes the body parts just get in the way. But my question is, is homoromanticism sin? David and Jonathan comes to mind. Clearly they had a romance going on. Would what they had be called homoromantic? And was it sin?
Definitely homoromanticism. David adopted Jonathan’s kid after Jonathan died in battle. Well the prophet Nathan commented on David’s trangression with the other man’s wife. (And God had to abort their first kid.)But nothing about his relations with Jonathan. And since David became the ancestor of Jesus, it shows that even God can use a guy who committed sin, for ultimate good.
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:06 PM   #139
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No it’s this..
What is the difference between romantic orientation and sexual orientation?

Romantic orientation indicates the gender with which a person is likely to have a relationship or fall in love. This does not necessarily have to involve sex. This means that some people can have different sexual and romantic orientations, based on the perspective that sexual attraction is just a single component of a larger dynamic. For example, someone might be sexually attracted to more than one gender (bisexual) but might only be able to see themselves in a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender (homoromantic).
Is it just me? Maybe it is . . . but I have to ask - is this getting more and more complex?
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:24 PM   #140
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Is it just me? Maybe it is . . . but I have to ask - is this getting more and more complex?
In the beginning it is, but thats like theoretical science.. I didnt know what lgbtq stood for at first. Until I had those same sex feelings and attractions, then had to look it up as a teenager. And I’m sure if we can comprehend the trinity, we can comprehend the difference between these two concepts. I’m glad God made us with brains

Here let me dumb it down for you... if someone feels like they are romantically attracted to someone and wants to be in a romantic relationship with someone, thats romantic attraction.
Biromantic- can be in relationship with either a male or female
Homoromantic- can be in romantic relationship with same sex but not opposite sex
Heteromantic- can be in romantic relationship with opposite sex but not same sex
Panromantic- Can be in a relationship with any gender (these include people who identify as transgender, or intersex, agender

If the relationship includes sexual attraction, and involves sex-
bisexual- sexually attracted to both males and females (may or may not be at the same time in their lives)
heterosexual- sexually attracted to someone of opposite sex
homosexual- only sexually attracted to someone of same sex.
pansexual- sexually attracted to those who are bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, transsexual, asexual.

Here is a full list of terms if you want to dig deeper:
http://www.umass.edu/stonewall/sites...rm_handout.pdf
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:37 PM   #141
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Truly amazing how many new diseases and pandemics are infecting the human race in these last days.
Very nice of you to say that gayness is a disease.
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:12 PM   #142
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Very nice of you to say that gayness is a disease.
Wail a minute! What does "bisexual homoromantic" even mean? Sounds like something you just made up.

If I can be so-called "diagnosed" as a "heterosexual homophobic," as if that is some kind of new disease, so can that guy who ruined his wife and kids.

Sorry Serenity, but many of those in the LGBTQ community look at those of us traditional conservatives with disgust because we believe marriage is one male and one female, so don't act so shocked when the shoe is on the other foot.

Just the other day you tried to denigrate me as an "old white guy." How do you think that makes me feel? Some would say that was a micro-aggression?
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:15 PM   #143
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Is it just me? Maybe it is . . . but I have to ask - is this getting more and more complex?
This is 2020. Get used to it!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the funniest things I heard all year was a comment about the Cleveland Browns football team last month. They lost their first game, and the comment was, "that's the first normal thing that has happened all year."

Then the Browns won 4 straight games, and we, by definition, have just returned to "2020 crazy."
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:18 PM   #144
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In the beginning it is, but thats like theoretical science.. I didnt know what lgbtq stood for at first. Until I had those same sex feelings and attractions, then had to look it up as a teenager. And I’m sure if we can comprehend the trinity, we can comprehend the difference between these two concepts. I’m glad God made us with brains

Here let me dumb it down for you... if someone feels like they are romantically attracted to someone and wants to be in a romantic relationship with someone, thats romantic attraction.
Biromantic- can be in relationship with either a male or female
Homoromantic- can be in romantic relationship with same sex but not opposite sex
Heteromantic- can be in romantic relationship with opposite sex but not same sex
Panromantic- Can be in a relationship with any gender (these include people who identify as transgender, or intersex, agender

If the relationship includes sexual attraction, and involves sex-
bisexual- sexually attracted to both males and females (may or may not be at the same time in their lives)
heterosexual- sexually attracted to someone of opposite sex
homosexual- only sexually attracted to someone of same sex.
pansexual- sexually attracted to those who are bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, transsexual, asexual.

Here is a full list of terms if you want to dig deeper:
http://www.umass.edu/stonewall/sites...rm_handout.pdf
Well . . . thanks, I guess. I'm just glad for simplicity in Christ, sister!
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:21 PM   #145
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Wail a minute! What does "bisexual homoromantic" even mean? Sounds like something you just made up.

If I can be so-called "diagnosed" as a "heterosexual homophobic," as if that is some kind of new disease, so can that guy who ruined his wife and kids.

Sorry Serenity, but many of those in the LGBTQ community look at those of us traditional conservatives with disgust because we believe marriage is one male and one female, so don't act so shocked when the shoe is on the other foot.

Just the other day you tried to denigrate me as an "old white guy." How do you think that makes me feel? Some would say that was a micro-aggression?
Did I say “old white guy”? I only asked your demographics but you declined to answer. It’s the same as you saying that I was Asian and my experiences were “cultural” and I was generalizing to other Christians. I dont look at you with disgust. But i t seems like you look at gays with disgust since you microlabeled them as a disease. And I sure as hell did not make “bisexual homoromantic” up. Just look at the articles or google it.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:18 PM   #146
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In the beginning it is, but thats like theoretical science.. I didnt know what lgbtq stood for at first. Until I had those same sex feelings and attractions, then had to look it up as a teenager. And I’m sure if we can comprehend the trinity, we can comprehend the difference between these two concepts. I’m glad God made us with brains

Here let me dumb it down for you... if someone feels like they are romantically attracted to someone and wants to be in a romantic relationship with someone, thats romantic attraction.
Biromantic- can be in relationship with either a male or female
Homoromantic- can be in romantic relationship with same sex but not opposite sex
Heteromantic- can be in romantic relationship with opposite sex but not same sex
Panromantic- Can be in a relationship with any gender (these include people who identify as transgender, or intersex, agender

If the relationship includes sexual attraction, and involves sex-
bisexual- sexually attracted to both males and females (may or may not be at the same time in their lives)
heterosexual- sexually attracted to someone of opposite sex
homosexual- only sexually attracted to someone of same sex.
pansexual- sexually attracted to those who are bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, transsexual, asexual.

Here is a full list of terms if you want to dig deeper:
http://www.umass.edu/stonewall/sites...rm_handout.pdf
When I said it was more complex than just a nut and bolt, that was a understatement. I feel that I can't keep up. Humans are complex. And what is LGBTQIA? Just when I understood what LGBTQ meant, two more letters were added. I want to care about the gays, but they change faster than I can keep up.

And your list (link) was massive. I'd have to make it my profession to remember it all.

I think I'll just take it as it comes. People only share such personal information when they get close. And right now, it ain't comin'.

I think I'm an A in LGBTQIA. Asexual's don't sin. I'm not a sinner. Everybody happy?
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:43 PM   #147
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I think I'm an A in LGBTQIA. Asexual's don't sin. I'm not a sinner. Everybody happy?
Actually I'm glad you brought up being a sinner (or not being one.....right). Asexuals may not sin sexually, but it sure don't mean they ain't sinners.

Can the LGBTQIA+ supporters on this thread explain the gospel to me?

I'm setting aside the LGBT part of this thread for this question. This is not in relation to the LGBT issue being discussed. I'm only directing the question to those supporting same sex relations in this thread.

This is a serious question, and to be honest it relates a little more to the "LC" portion of the other closed thread. I didn't ever really understand the gospel until after I left the LC and heard it from totally non-LC and non-LSM sources.

The only reason I'm asking, in case you want to know my motives, is to try to understand how you understand sin.
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:34 PM   #148
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Did I say “old white guy”? I only asked your demographics but you declined to answer. It’s the same as you saying that I was Asian and my experiences were “cultural” and I was generalizing to other Christians. I dont look at you with disgust. But i t seems like you look at gays with disgust since you microlabeled them as a disease. And I sure as hell did not make “bisexual homoromantic” up. Just look at the articles or google it.
I think neither of us really understands how we sound to each other, and this is just a microcosm of society.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:17 AM   #149
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Trapped - that linked article was a pretty cerebral argument that I didn't completely follow part of the time, but I believe I get the point.

That's interesting . . . have to think about that for a bit. The gay man acknowledged that one sexual part (female) was designed for another part (male), but is choosing to ignore that fact and go against the design purpose, in order to have a romantic relationship with another man. Hmmmmmm
Since Trapped put out an interesting article, I would like to share my own. I think this one embodies almost all of how I view interpreting homosexuality in the bible:

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...agebyColin.pdf
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:25 AM   #150
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Actually I'm glad you brought up being a sinner (or not being one.....right). Asexuals may not sin sexually, but it sure don't mean they ain't sinners.

Can the LGBTQIA+ supporters on this thread explain the gospel to me?

I'm setting aside the LGBT part of this thread for this question. This is not in relation to the LGBT issue being discussed. I'm only directing the question to those supporting same sex relations in this thread.

This is a serious question, and to be honest it relates a little more to the "LC" portion of the other closed thread. I didn't ever really understand the gospel until after I left the LC and heard it from totally non-LC and non-LSM sources.

The only reason I'm asking, in case you want to know my motives, is to try to understand how you understand sin.
i went to a couple of various denominations after LC and they all mention sin a little differently. I will get back to you within the week on this question.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:33 AM   #151
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I think neither of us really understands how we sound to each other, and this is just a microcosm of society.
It’s okay brother, we can be opposite ends of spectrum in terms of views but our love for God still allows us to continue kickin on this forum. I did not intend for you to have felt any negative feelings from my words/ i sincerely apologize if it ever made you feel that way.
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Old 10-12-2020, 03:04 AM   #152
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It’s okay brother, we can be opposite ends of spectrum in terms of views but our love for God still allows us to continue kickin on this forum. I did not intend for you to have felt any negative feelings from my words/ i sincerely apologize if it ever made you feel that way.
Thanks. Much love and peace to you also.
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Old 10-12-2020, 09:06 AM   #153
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Actually I'm glad you brought up being a sinner (or not being one.....right). Asexuals may not sin sexually, but it sure don't mean they ain't sinners.

Can the LGBTQIA+ supporters on this thread explain the gospel to me?

I'm setting aside the LGBT part of this thread for this question. This is not in relation to the LGBT issue being discussed. I'm only directing the question to those supporting same sex relations in this thread.

This is a serious question, and to be honest it relates a little more to the "LC" portion of the other closed thread. I didn't ever really understand the gospel until after I left the LC and heard it from totally non-LC and non-LSM sources.

The only reason I'm asking, in case you want to know my motives, is to try to understand how you understand sin.
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i went to a couple of various denominations after LC and they all mention sin a little differently. I will get back to you within the week on this question.
I'd like to offer some thoughts.

Biblically speaking that's a hard question. Not so much because the Bible mentions sin, but more importantly, what God overlooks. Apparently He does that.

Consider King David. He sinned like none of us out here on this forum, including any LGBTQIA's out here. Yet he had a heart for God.

Can gays do that, with their comparably puny little sins?

What we clobber as sin, does God just overlook it?
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Old 10-12-2020, 09:11 AM   #154
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I'd like to offer some thoughts.

Biblically speaking that's a hard question. Not so much because the Bible mentions sin, but more importantly, what God overlooks. Apparently He does that.

Consider King David
. He sinned like none of us out here on this forum, including any LGBTQIA's out here. Yet he had a heart for God.

Can gays do that, with their comparably puny little sins?

What we clobber as sin, does God just overlook it?
When did God overlook King David's sins?
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Old 10-12-2020, 09:31 AM   #155
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i went to a couple of various denominations after LC and they all mention sin a little differently. I will get back to you within the week on this question.
Yes, I too think this is a very pertinent question and am also awaiting your thoughtful reply. Be sure, as Trapped mentioned, to describe how you see the gospel too.
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Old 10-12-2020, 09:38 AM   #156
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When did God overlook King David's sins?
I agree. God certainly didn't overlook David's sins! There were big consequences. There are consequence to sin. Like a child purposely drinking poison - the parent certainly may forgive, but there will be consequences.

Sometimes God graciously removes the consequences when He forgives, but often not I think. (And in Christ we certainly don't get what we deserved, as previously being outright enemies of God)
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Old 10-12-2020, 11:00 AM   #157
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When did God overlook King David's sins?
When did God abandon David? That sinner is in the line of Jesus ... central in fact.
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Old 10-12-2020, 11:13 AM   #158
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When did God abandon David? That sinner is in the line of Jesus ... central in fact.
We were not talking about abandonment, but sin & consequences, right?

The encouraging thing about David for us is that even though he committed a few biggies, he still demonstrated a heart to pursue God - David did not abandon God and owned-up to his sins before Him. So there were consequences for David's sin, but God could still work with him because he still had a heart for God, and David accepted the consequences of his sins.
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Old 10-12-2020, 11:30 AM   #159
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When did God abandon David? That sinner is in the line of Jesus ... central in fact.
You are the prisoner of 2 ideas. Apparently you see only 2 choices: overlooking sin or abandoning the sinner.
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Old 10-12-2020, 11:58 AM   #160
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I'd like to offer some thoughts.

Biblically speaking that's a hard question. Not so much because the Bible mentions sin, but more importantly, what God overlooks. Apparently He does that.

Consider King David. He sinned like none of us out here on this forum, including any LGBTQIA's out here. Yet he had a heart for God.

Can gays do that, with their comparably puny little sins?

What we clobber as sin, does God just overlook it?
So the way I see it, and I can see where Ohio, Sons of Glory are coming from, is that David did commit grievous sins and yes, it did take him a while to repent and see the error of his ways: example, him and Bethsheba and having Bethsheba’s husband killed in line of duty for his own selfishness so he can have Bethsheba. Another example, him having lots of murder on his hands and taking multiple wives. According to the bible, God did punish David (He allowed Bethsheba’s and David’s firstborn son to die although it wasnt the kid’s fault), he told David that he wasnt worthy of building God’s temple and instead Solomon would take over (Solomon being the second son of David and Bethsheba since the first one died). And God leading David’s sons to kill each other (ie Absolom and Abner, I totally need to reread the OT, he had a lot of sons and they had lots of conflict). In a way God punished yet overlooked, according to Awareness, due to the fact that David eventually became the ancestor of Jesus. He still allowed David to marry Bethsheba, he still allowed his son Solomon to build the temple. So though there were sonsewunces, in the long run, there were also rewards for what David reaped.

I think Awareness’s point is that lets say homosexuality is a sin, it is not as grievous as murdering thousands or stealing another man’s wife, so if God can save David and make him the ultimate ancestor of Jesus, He can surely forgive all the homosexuals in the world who have a heart for God but yet “sin”.
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Old 10-12-2020, 12:10 PM   #161
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Yes, I too think this is a very pertinent question and am also awaiting your thoughtful reply. Be sure, as Trapped mentioned, to describe how you see the gospel too.
Okay so I will be busy this week but let me just give an overview of what I believe the gospel to be:
The word gospel means “good news,” so the gospel of Christ is the good news of His coming to provide forgiveness of sins for all who will believe (Colossians 1:14; Romans 10:9). Since the first man’s sin, mankind has been under the condemnation of God (Romans 5:12). Because everyone breaks God’s perfect law by committing sin, everyone is guilty (Romans 3:23). The punishment for the crime of sin is physical death (Romans 6:23) and then an eternity spent in a place of punishment (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:46). This eternal separation from God is also called the “second death” (Revelation 20:14–15).

The bad news that all are guilty of sin and condemned by God is countered by the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ. God, because of His love for the world, has made a way for man to be forgiven of their sins (John 3:16). He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take the sins of mankind on Himself through death on a cross (1 Peter 2:24). In placing our sin on Christ, God ensured that all who will believe in the name of Jesus will be forgiven (Acts 10:43). Jesus’ resurrection guarantees the justification of all who believe (Romans 4:25).

The Bible specifies the content of the gospel message: “Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time” (1 Corinthians 15:1–6). In this passage, Paul emphasizes the primacy of the gospel—it is of “first importance.” The gospel message contains two historical facts, both supported by Scripture: Christ’s death and His resurrection. Both those facts are bolstered by other proofs: Christ’s death is proved by His burial, and His resurrection is proved by the eyewitnesses.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that God provided the way for man to be freed from the penalty of sin (John 14:6; Romans 6:23). Everyone dies physically, but those who believe in Jesus Christ are promised a physical resurrection unto eternal life (John 11:23–26). Those who reject Christ will not only die physically but will undergo a “second death,” which the Bible describes as an eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–14). Jesus is the only One in whom salvation can be found (Acts 4:12).

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the best news anyone will ever hear, and what a person does with this news will determine where he or she spends eternity. God is calling you to choose life. Call on the name of the Lord and be saved (Romans 10:13).

This is according to the bible, although my personal beliefs is that God is all forgiving and I dont think hell exists as an eternal punishment (this is too much of a punishment for a human being who sinned for 100 years). But I’m sure God will sort it out.

In relation to sin, some Methodist and Episcopal and more “progressive” churches I’ve been through, they do not view homosexuality as a sin. If anything, it’s either not as bad as adultery or equal to adultery, depending on the specific church. And churches are very understanding towards those who divorce or have premarital sex, more so than homosexuality ( these are some other churches I’ve been to). So yes, I guess it really depends on what denomniation you go to. Some ordain women to be pastors and higher ups, some dont. I’ve been to a few Catholic ones and they seem a lot more open to homosexuality being as “come as you are”, the message being God accepts all diversity. Again, this is in California, and I’m sure those in the “Bible Belt” will disagree.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:24 PM   #162
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Okay so I will be busy this week but let me just give an overview of what I believe the gospel to be:
The word gospel means “good news,” so the gospel of Christ is the good news of His coming to provide forgiveness of sins for all who will believe (Colossians 1:14; Romans 10:9). Since the first man’s sin, mankind has been under the condemnation of God (Romans 5:12). Because everyone breaks God’s perfect law by committing sin, everyone is guilty (Romans 3:23). The punishment for the crime of sin is physical death (Romans 6:23) and then an eternity spent in a place of punishment (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:46). This eternal separation from God is also called the “second death” (Revelation 20:14–15).

The bad news that all are guilty of sin and condemned by God is countered by the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ. God, because of His love for the world, has made a way for man to be forgiven of their sins (John 3:16). He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take the sins of mankind on Himself through death on a cross (1 Peter 2:24). In placing our sin on Christ, God ensured that all who will believe in the name of Jesus will be forgiven (Acts 10:43). Jesus’ resurrection guarantees the justification of all who believe (Romans 4:25).

The Bible specifies the content of the gospel message: “Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time” (1 Corinthians 15:1–6). In this passage, Paul emphasizes the primacy of the gospel—it is of “first importance.” The gospel message contains two historical facts, both supported by Scripture: Christ’s death and His resurrection. Both those facts are bolstered by other proofs: Christ’s death is proved by His burial, and His resurrection is proved by the eyewitnesses.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that God provided the way for man to be freed from the penalty of sin (John 14:6; Romans 6:23). Everyone dies physically, but those who believe in Jesus Christ are promised a physical resurrection unto eternal life (John 11:23–26). Those who reject Christ will not only die physically but will undergo a “second death,” which the Bible describes as an eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–14). Jesus is the only One in whom salvation can be found (Acts 4:12).

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the best news anyone will ever hear, and what a person does with this news will determine where he or she spends eternity. God is calling you to choose life. Call on the name of the Lord and be saved (Romans 10:13).

This is according to the bible, although my personal beliefs is that God is all forgiving and I dont think hell exists as an eternal punishment (this is too much of a punishment for a human being who sinned for 100 years). But I’m sure God will sort it out.

In relation to sin, some Methodist and Episcopal and more “progressive” churches I’ve been through, they do not view homosexuality as a sin. If anything, it’s either not as bad as adultery or equal to adultery, depending on the specific church. And churches are very understanding towards those who divorce or have premarital sex, more so than homosexuality ( these are some other churches I’ve been to). So yes, I guess it really depends on what denomniation you go to. Some ordain women to be pastors and higher ups, some dont. I’ve been to a few Catholic ones and they seem a lot more open to homosexuality being as “come as you are”, the message being God accepts all diversity. Again, this is in California, and I’m sure those in the “Bible Belt” will disagree.
Thank you for that very thoughtful answer! Your focus on Christ as the one and only Savior of mankind is really good to hear! His substitutionary death for us on the cross was a huge price to pay for a huge penalty, of which we don't know the half of either!

That sums up the propitiation for sins . . . what are your thoughts on the "much more" aspect, as in Romans 5:10? "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." Now that the sin aspect has been dealt with, we are much more blessed with "Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col 1:27)

And let me add that all the discussion about the degree of sin that homosexuality is, is a little above my pay-grade. Maybe others can address this better. It is off-the-mark as far as everything I read, and a sin much like many other fruits of the flesh as discussed here repeatedly. But my thought is not to get too wrapped around the axle - as far as my personal mental gymnastics go in trying to figure it all out - because this is one of the things He will quickly sort out when He returns. Is that making too light of homosexuality? Perhaps, but I'd rather err on the side of love when it comes to interacting with other believers. Love is a solid motivation that I can "take to the bank!" However, love also does not allow others to be harmed ---->But we must be careful that this isn't done out of some self-righteousness or other fleshly motive. Again, better to err on the side of love rather than on the side of judgment toward other believers.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed.


John 1:17 & Psalm 85:11
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:30 PM   #163
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Okay so I will be busy this week but let me just give an overview of what I believe the gospel to be:
The word gospel means “good news,” so the gospel of Christ is the good news of His coming to provide forgiveness of sins for all who will believe (Colossians 1:14; Romans 10:9).....
Welllllllll.......

I was really hoping for YOU to explain it (you, in your own words, as you understand it now, without researching it) and not copy/paste from someone else's post.....

https://www.facebook.com/11121721821...9353379428612/
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:41 PM   #164
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Welllllllll.......

I was really hoping for YOU to explain it (you, in your own words, as you understand it now, without researching it) and not copy/paste from someone else's post.....

https://www.facebook.com/11121721821...9353379428612/
Are you saying that her post was plagiarized? (I can't read the FB link you posted)
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:41 PM   #165
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Then what is the line of reasoning for masturbation among heterosexuals? Homosexual sex is mostly masturbation if you think about it. Or people who are born intersex?
That line of reasoning to strict Bible believers is Onanism.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:49 PM   #166
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Welllllllll.......

I was really hoping for YOU to explain it (you, in your own words, as you understand it now, without researching it) and not copy/paste from someone else's post.....

https://www.facebook.com/11121721821...9353379428612/
too much work. those are basic tenets of what the gospel means to me. I can just recite it and pit it in my own words but it’s the same. why dont you guys explain it
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:56 PM   #167
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Thank you for that very thoughtful answer! Your focus on Christ as the one and only Savior of mankind is really good to hear! His substitutionary death for us on the cross was a huge price to pay for a huge penalty, of which we don't know the half of either!

That sums up the propitiation for sins . . . what are your thoughts on the "much more" aspect, as in Romans 5:10? "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."" However, love also does not allow others to be harmed ---->But we must be careful that this isn't done out of some self-righteousness or other fleshly motive. Again, better to err on the side of love rather than on the side of judgment toward other believers.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed.


John 1:17 & Psalm 85:11
so those conversion therapies were out of self righteousness and fleshly motive. Now my question to you StG, is how do we preach it as love when our motive is for the person to be converted and recognize it as sin, as our preaching at times does more harm than good for the lgbtq? For example, How would you preach the gospel to lgbtq in your own words?
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:21 PM   #168
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so those conversion therapies were out of self righteousness and fleshly motive. Now my question to you StG, is how do we preach it as love when our motive is for the person to be converted and recognize it as sin, as our preaching at times does more harm than good for the lgbtq? For example, How would you preach the gospel to lgbtq in your own words?
Absolutely the same words as to anyone - focus on Christ and His amazing gift to us, and the need to accept Him! It's the Holy Spirit's job to touch people's hearts as they individually need.
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Old 10-12-2020, 04:54 PM   #169
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I think Awareness’s point is that lets say homosexuality is a sin, it is not as grievous as murdering thousands or stealing another man’s wife, so if God can save David and make him the ultimate ancestor of Jesus, He can surely forgive all the homosexuals in the world who have a heart for God but yet “sin”.
Well if that is awareness point then I agree completely.

Serenity, perhaps you could be awareness' spox! I'm for that.
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:11 PM   #170
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so those conversion therapies were out of self righteousness and fleshly motive.
Conversion therapies are evil. But they were just trying to save their souls from hell fire. That's why the belief in eternal hell fire is evil.
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Old 10-13-2020, 08:44 AM   #171
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Conversion therapies are evil. But they were just trying to save their souls from hell fire. That's why the belief in eternal hell fire is evil.
This is a sidebar to the main discussion, but I had a thought come to me regarding eternal damnation this morning. In order for God to judge the devil and his minions to eternal damnation, He has to be righteous. Therefore, anyone not accepting the one provision for salvation in Christ, has to experience it too. Otherwise, the devil can point his finger and say to God, "That is totally unrighteous to send us to eternal damnation, because these humans got a pass and they didn't accept Christ as Lord either!"
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Old 10-13-2020, 11:05 AM   #172
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This is a sidebar to the main discussion, but I had a thought come to me regarding eternal damnation this morning. In order for God to judge the devil and his minions to eternal damnation, He has to be righteous. Therefore, anyone not accepting the one provision for salvation in Christ, has to experience it too. Otherwise, the devil can point his finger and say to God, "That is totally unrighteous to send us to eternal damnation, because these beings got a pass and they didn't accept Christ as Lord either!"
Then gays that accept Jesus, like Serenity and her mate, escape eternal damnation? Otherwise they are as bad as the devil and his minions?
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Old 10-13-2020, 11:40 AM   #173
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