Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Orthopraxy - Christian Practice

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-20-2008, 04:11 PM   #1
YP0534
Member
 
YP0534's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 685
Default New Light from Old

Quote:
Concerning the keeping of days, the Apostle said, ďOne esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.Ē Again the Apostle took a very liberal attitude, not saying which was right or which was wrong. According to the Scriptures, we should not keep any day in this age. Today, under the Lordís grace, every day is the same. Even the Sabbath differs not from any other day. The Apostle knew this quite well, but he did not speak concerning the right teaching. He did not say whether esteeming one day above another is right, or whether esteeming every day alike is right. He only said, ďHe that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.Ē His attitude was truly liberal!

Could we be so liberal? We must be so liberal. By the Lordís mercy and grace, we must learn to be so liberal. I do not mean that we should be liberal regarding the Lord. We must be absolutely definite concerning the Lord and the church as His expression. But could we be liberal with all other things? Whether or not a brother or sister should do a certain thing depends upon his or her feeling before the Lord. If they feel they should do it, let them do it unto the Lord. Perhaps they will feel that they need not do it. Then let them not do it unto the Lord. If the Lord wants them to do it, they should not say no to Him.

We should not have any legal regulations, and we should not attempt to make everyone alike. If we insist upon having certain things in uniformity, we are legal. If one eats herbs and feels that everyone should also eat herbs, it will cause trouble. As long as the brothers and sisters do not do things that are sinful, we should not trouble them. We should only be definite regarding Christ as life and the church as the expression of Christ. With all other things, we must learn from the Apostle Paul to be very liberal and general.

Witness Lee, The Practical Expression of the Church


Therefore, according to brother Lee, there is no keeping of feast days according to the Bible.

Brother Lee also warned about insisting upon having things in uniformity.

Someone in the Local Church really should go back and read Witness Lee's books sometimes...
__________________
Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17
YP0534 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2008, 05:07 PM   #2
Suannehill
Member
 
Suannehill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North of Mansfield Ohio
Posts: 165
Default

Funny...I suggested that more than once to the local folks following the LSM.
Suannehill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2008, 06:56 PM   #3
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
Therefore, according to brother Lee, there is no keeping of feast days according to the Bible.

Brother Lee also warned about insisting upon having things in uniformity.

Someone in the Local Church really should go back and read Witness Lee's books sometimes..
.
Interesting comment. Actually, only the BB's today are rightfully allowed to interpret Lee.

This is why I coined the phrases "early Lee" and "later Lee." There was no other way to explain the conflict. And there was no way to arrive at a consensus of thought. Two brothers could read two different WL books and arrive at two opposing thoughts. Many did this. I did this. We tried hard to determine "what did WL really say." Early Lee was closer to WN. Later lee was closer to JND. The conflict between the CB's and the BB's served to highlight this dilemma. Both initially were sourcing WL, trying to prove to the other side "what did WL really say." Eventually, most of the CB authors decided that this was going no where, so they decided to return to the Bible.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 06:20 AM   #4
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Interesting comment. Actually, only the BB's today are rightfully allowed to interpret Lee.

This is why I coined the phrases "early Lee" and "later Lee." There was no other way to explain the conflict. And there was no way to arrive at a consensus of thought. Two brothers could read two different WL books and arrive at two opposing thoughts. Many did this. I did this. We tried hard to determine "what did WL really say." Early Lee was closer to WN. Later lee was closer to JND.
Ohio, at what point in time do you believe did early Lee become later Lee?

Terry
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 07:29 AM   #5
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Ohio, at what point in time do you believe did early Lee become later Lee?

Terry
May I suggest Lord Acton's dictum, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"? Lee and his followers entered upon a mutually reinforcing circle of abnegation (on the part of the followers) and usurpation (on the part of Lee and now his Loyal Lieutenants). Like a dysfunctional family, it is a group conspiracy that gradually envelops the participants until the day it blows up and one of them is standing in front of the judge who is saying, "What were you people thinking?"

May the Lord have mercy upon us all. I was part of it. In some ways I still am, probably; even my posts are 'infected'. I cannot judge. I can only repent.
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 08:41 AM   #6
YP0534
Member
 
YP0534's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 685
Default I vote for Feb. 1986 as the start of the real decline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Ohio, at what point in time do you believe did early Lee become later Lee?

Terry
I think this may be a question many people would like to ask.

Not that Ohio's answer would be conclusive, nor any of our, but it owuld be interesting to see as a as a kind of consensus.

Personally, I have studied closely the first message from the Feb. 1986 elders' training and there was clearly a turn in his mentality at that time to work very diligently towards seeing what he understood as the practical side of brother Nee's ministry being put into practice.

This is the first message found in volume 7 of the Elders' Training series.

Lee expressly says in Message One that the change in his mentality began in Taiwan in October 1984. I do not know occasioned the change in his thinking, but I bet we could figure it out.

In this message, Lee implicitly calls for a purge, saying that "the blood" had never been "purified" from the "ambition" from the troubles in 1973. Again, I'm not certain what these 1973 troubles were but others here can surely help me with this.

In October 1984, according to Message One, Lee apparently came to point the finger squarely at T. Austin Sparks for the loss of the one accord and consequent blessing in Taiwan in 1955, apparently unable to realize his own role in the problem with brother Austin-Sparks. (This was well discussed somewhere at the other site and I'd love a link back to it if someone knew right where it was.)

In other words, everything was fine with the "spiritual side" of brother Nee's ministry but the "practical side" - which Lee apparently understood to be the Local Aspect of the Universal Church - had been neglected all these years since the problems in Taiwan and Lee purposed within himself to put an end to that. He basically says here that the Lord's Recovery is just "one car" and he is the uniquely qualified "one driver." This later became the teachings regarding "wise master-builder" and "apostle of the age" and such.

I really believe this one message, better than anything else I've seen, reveals the point of demarcation between "old Lee" and "new Lee" and I feel it also reveals his turn from just caring for the churches to caring for The Church in a "new way." The result of those days in that training was that elders all signed up to help him build the Universal Church and they soon began aggregating statistics from all of the localities in Anaheim. This was an attempt to guage the status and condition of The Church and it did have the effect of unifying by a system of human organization all the local assemblies that until then had merely been closely associated with Lee's ministry.

So, two questions:
what was the problem with "ambition" in 1973?
and
what occurred in October 1984 that Lee went back to Taiwan?

I'm sure these are discussed somewhere but so is a lot of stuff and it's hard for me to organize things sometimes.

My notes indicate that Summer 1973 was the last training held in Los Angeles, but I don't know why that happened, exactly. And I would like to know what was the book that resulted from that training. My notes say that Ingalls and Barber handled the training in Winter 1972.

Also, I see that the Life Study of Acts took place in December 1984 so he would have been preparing for that, presumably, and the final book of the Recovery Version of the New Testament about October 1984. Maybe something he saw in the book of Acts? Maybe something (probably "ambition") that happened while finalizing the RcV? I know Ingalls has written some about this but I haven't made a thorough study of that topic as yet.

At the end of the day, it probably doesn't even matter but it could certainly stand as a lesson to all of us if we knew where they started skidding so far off the rails. (Not that there weren't HUGE problems before this, of course, but just recognizing that there is a rather clear difference between the 1968 Lee in Practical Expression and 1986 Lee in Elders' Training Book 7...)
__________________
Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17

Last edited by YP0534; 07-21-2008 at 09:29 AM. Reason: typo
YP0534 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 08:50 AM   #7
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
Personally, I have studied closely the first message from the Feb. 1986 elders' training and there was clearly a turn in his mentality at that time to work very diligently towards seeing what he understood as the practical side of brother Nee's ministry being put into practice.

This is the first message found in volume 7 of the Elders' Training series...

I really believe this one message, better than anything else I've seen, reveals the point of demarcation between "old Lee" and "new Lee" and I feel it also reveals his turn from just caring for the churches to caring for The Church in a "new way."

...At the end of the day, it probably doesn't even matter but it could certainly stand as a less to all of us if we knew where they started skidding so far off the rails. (Not that there weren't HUGE problems before this, of course, but just recognizing that there is a rather clear difference between the 1968 Lee in Practical Expression and 1986 Lee in Elders' Training Book 7...)
Good answer. I much prefer your specifics to my generalities. General themes are well and good, but without specifics they are empty, self-evident tautologies. Thanks for commenting. I will consider.
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 12:09 PM   #8
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Ohio, at what point in time do you believe did early Lee become later Lee?

Terry
The transition was gradual, as many have already posted, but a major change occurred at the end of '84 with the end of the Acts L.S. training and the start of '85 with the beginning of the FTTT in Taiwan.

Some have protested this date as "too late" in time, others saying it never happened at all, but it works for me. WL highlighted this transition on numerous occasions with the phrase, "as I laid my pen down."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 12:29 PM   #9
YP0534
Member
 
YP0534's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
The transition was gradual, as many have already posted, but a major change occurred at the end of '84 with the end of the Acts L.S. training and the start of '85 with the beginning of the FTTT in Taiwan.

Some have protested this date as "too late" in time, others saying it never happened at all, but it works for me. WL highlighted this transition on numerous occasions with the phrase, "as I laid my pen down."
Ohio:

can you cite to me a place where it is printed this phrase "as I laid my pen down"?

I think I heard that once but not enough to stick.

Your quote brings it back to mind for me and that just happens to jibe with some of my speculation about October 1984....
__________________
Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17
YP0534 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 04:36 PM   #10
YP0534
Member
 
YP0534's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 685
Default Another excerpt from Practical Expression of the Church

Quote:
THE KINGíS BUSINESS
If this matter is our business, it means nothing. But if it is His business, it is not a small thing. The local church is indeed the Kingís business; so we must take a stand. Of course, some will oppose us. Nevertheless, we must take the Lordís way of unity. And if we take this way, we must be absolute. If you do not feel burdened to take this way, I do not encourage you to take it. If you feel that you have peace in going along with the denominations, just do it. But if you are going to take the way of the ground of unity, do it in an absolute way. Do not do it lightly. We must mean business with the Lord.

We are in the Lordís recovery, and the time is short. Luke 21:24 says that Jerusalem will be trodden under the feet of the Gentiles until the fullness of the time of the Gentiles. But Jerusalem has already been returned. I really believe that the Lord will do a quick work. We must be wise. Therefore, I believe that all the scattered brothers and sisters should come together to one or more centers. Even the students had better not study in a place without a church. The place to study is where there is a prevailing church. We must not put our studies first, but the church life. Even our jobs do not matter. As long as we can make a living, let us be concentrated. Then we can declare to the whole world and to Satan the fact of our unity. The ointment will flow and the dew will come down, and we will see the Lord commanding His blessing. Even the gates of Hades will not be able to stand against us.

I do believe that this is the strategic way. First of all we must be concentrated, and then equipped to bear the testimony and give the enemy the shame. Then we will go out to spread the unity of the church life to other cities.

This is the way to keep the unity. We must leave all the divisive groups and take the ground of unity. And we must seek the Lordís leading for us to be concentrated together. Of course, no one controls this matter. We all must seek the Lordís guidance. Perhaps the Lord will lead some to meet here in Los Angeles, or with those in Akron, or with those in Houston. We all must seek the Lordís leading concerning this matter. It is only on the ground of unity that we have the ointment and the dew with the commanded blessing of life.

Witness Lee, The Practical Expression of the Church
Lee spoke at one point of the need to be concentrated in "centers" via migrations (instead of spreading out) and, ironically, taught that "no one controls this matter" of being concentrated.

One really must wonder honestly whether filling out and submitting migration applications isn't a kind of control or if it's just "OK" because certain ones have approved the forms and they are "leading ones" which means they can do no wrong and neither can we as long as we do as they say.

But if we do things contrary to what Lee actually taught us about such matters, what shall we say about this?

They seem to have created a very confused situation that will eventually require revision of many of brother Lee's inconvenient old books...
__________________
Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17

Last edited by YP0534; 07-22-2008 at 05:00 AM.
YP0534 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 08:05 PM   #11
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
Ohio:

can you cite to me a place where it is printed this phrase "as I laid my pen down"?

I think I heard that once but not enough to stick.

Your quote brings it back to mind for me and that just happens to jibe with some of my speculation about October 1984....
YP, I heard that phrase a number of times, and it became almost symbolic. The actual event was the finish of the outlines and notes for the Acts Training in Irving winter 1984. I was there, staying in Arlington. WL used the event to imply that his Lfe Study work in the US was finished, and he was moving to Taipei to start something new.

At least that is how my memory remembers it, but I couldn't point to a book, I don't remember reading it. After that training, subsequent ones became wild promotionals for recruitment of full-timers and the FTTT.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:02 AM.


3.8.9