POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

This question has come up a few times, so I thought maybe we could do a poll around what everyone thinks is the greatest error of Witness Lee and/or the Local Churches.

Here are the errors, to start with, that I've seen mentioned on this forum:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny

What's your vote for the one biggest error, and maybe a runner-up error? Feel free to suggest any others not listed here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

3. The Ground of Locality - elitism

Having studied the RCC, the Plymouth Brethren, and the Recovery, each developed a distorted practice of oneness to condemn all others, justifying in some cases the most horrible of atrocities. It's way beyond elitism, pride, and arrogance. It provides a license of evil and unrighteousness under the cloak of biblical spirituality and authority. It becomes a foundational vindication for all manner of evil to enter the church.

[Davis]

8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"

[Nell]

13. Hypocrisy

[jigsaw44]

Highest of all violations- divine heresy in the worship of doctrine
- Exalting Doctrine-Prioritizing the doctrine of man to be the standard over the word of God. Judging the value of certain books of the bible based on its accordance to the doctrine of Witness Lee.
- Doctrine Manipulation- Using doctrine to violate scripture in order to manipulate church members to conformity and manipulation.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This question has come up a few times, so I thought maybe we could do a poll around what everyone thinks is the greatest error of Witness Lee and/or the Local Churches.

Here are the errors, to start with, that I've seen mentioned on this forum:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny

What's your vote for the one biggest error, and maybe a runner-up error? Feel free to suggest any others not listed here.

I think most of these errors have to do with one trait- unwillingness to listen and treating others as you want them to treat you (golden rule). With compassion. But yes, agree with Nell with Hypocrisy and also number 10, shunning.

[Sons to Glory!]

Well that's interesting - starting out with not much consensus! Let's see how it goes once more of the "old-timers" chime in . . .

[UntoHim]

The fact that it was so easy to create a list of 12 errors of the Local Church of Witness Lee speaks volumes, and pretty much tells you about all you need to know about Witness Lee and the little religion of the Lord's Recovery that he invented. Given some more time, I'm quite sure that the list could be expanded to 20 or more.

What's the greatest error? Well the greatest error for one person might not be the greatest for another. As a brother in the Local Church of Witness Lee, I never gave misogyny much thought. Treating women/sisters as second class saints came pretty natural. I certainly never thought that it was some kind of error. Of course I never bothered to ask my wife or daughters

In my experience and observation for 40+ years I would say the greatest error would be Lee's teachings regarding the nature and character of God. If you get these wrong, one really doesn't know God after all. And if you don't know God then you don't know the Lord Jesus Christ. And if you don't know the Lord Jesus Christ then you don't know his Word. And if you don't know his Word then it is easy to fall into the errors on this list, and many others.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What's the greatest error? Well the greatest error for one person might not be the greatest for another.

In my experience and observation for 40+ years I would say the greatest error would be Lee's teachings regarding the nature and character of God.

It is interesting that most everyone, at least so far, has chosen something different. I'm sure that's because of all our individual experiences. And the different localities we were in is another reason as some adhered more closely to Anaheim and had varying degrees of common LC practices, etc.

I must say that when I first read Ohio's response, that the OCOC Elitism was the biggest thing (since many other erroneous things flowed out of that teaching), I didn't agree. But upon further thought, I think there may be something to this. From this doctrine, we in the LC got more than a little puffed-up. Then, if one thinks they got the market cornered on something foundational like that, they might tend to think the one preaching it must be the MOTA. And as you set this one up on a pedestal, it really goes to their head and they start thinking their teachings are all the more special. Then other Christian groups seem greatly diminished, so you don't respect them and start disparaging them and taking them to court! Yikes!

Hmmm Ohio, you may be unto something here . . .

Think about it, if the OCOC teaching hadn't been elevated so much, much of the other stuff might not have followed. It could have been, "We think we've seen something interesting in scripture about Christian oneness, but it's not something to be emphasized or pushed on others. Only the Lord can create true oneness (and He has) so we must look to Him and not this doctrine. Therefore let's fellowship and seek Him together!"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hmmm Ohio, you may be unto something here . . .

Having studied church history and the Bible, perhaps it has allowed me to see what were the initial errors that opened the door for all the others to creep in. At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power. What was the initial false teaching that allowed all the others?

Consider the RCC, "the authorized catholic oneness church." Don't you think that there were many godly and learned brothers within her, over centuries time, that saw the errors of papalism, Mary-worship, saint adoration, transubstantiation, idolatry, formulaic liturgy, priesthood class, celibacy, monasticism, confessionals, purgatory, inquisitions, tortures, the list of evils is endless, but ... they were silenced by the notion that they alone were the only true church of God. They did not want to violate the oneness and the authority of the church! They were silenced by the fear of being marked out for "making divisions," the unforgivable sin.

Same thing happened to the Brethren. Darby used oneness to cut off those perceived to be rivals. Darby taught that the "ground of unity" was the common judgment of evil. Huh? He became a worse pope than the one in Rome because it was he alone who "defined evil," and held everyone in fear of violating the oneness. So parallel to oneness is the falsity that the church always has "one man" for every move of God. This so-called leader uses the oneness, and the oneness maintains the leader's power base.

During our quarantines, I heard "all the brothers are one except Titus Chu." Isolate potential rivals in the minds of your adherents, and then maintain control on all information. Darby also used this tactic on B.W. Newton, and then on George Mueller -- isolate and destroy with endless tracts. The RCC used this so successfully that much of "actual" church history is only known by "reverse engineering" what the RCC wrote. After the Pope ordered the slaughter of whole communities of believers located often in little mountain hamlets, no one was alive to write their side of the story.

[Trapped]

Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

As UntoHim said, the very fact that a list this long, that can easily be made much longer, can be created speaks volumes already.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having studied church history and the Bible, perhaps it has allowed me to see what were the initial errors that opened the door for all the others to creep in. At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power. What was the initial false teaching that allowed all the others? .

The pride and lust can be tied back to misogyny, because sisters can be very powerful. Just considering what sister “rebellions” have done in the last decade to “undermine” the LC can make any leading brother afraid.

I need to read up on Darby..

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

Not sure what came first - the idea of "Recovery" or "The Ground of Oneness." Maybe someone with better knowledge of LC origins could address that.

[LoveHim&HearHim]

Usurpation of the Headship of Christ

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Col. 1: 13-20


I realize this was not one of the 12 items in your list but I feel that all 12 items you listed have its root problem due to the usurpation of the headship of Christ.

[Curious]

You know I was thinking, the core or original error might just be the seperation from the established denominations and forming a Christian Church in China that had no accountability or connection to any balanced Christian group. Doing this too soon, without having learned much foundational lessons needed before branching off and seperating themselves.

If they had moved towards autonomy gradually, and experienced healthy accountability, (as many protestant denominations have had good systems of internal accountability), they could have grown into something valid and productive.

They became autonomous and independant to 'young', to immature, and too bound to Chinese culture and spirituality. In their rebellion, immaturity and cultural blinkers, they were bound to go astray in a multitude of ways. They missed figuring out what had really happened to cause denominations to be formed in the first place, judging them negatively but not giving it all deeper thought. And they had not dealt with pride, vanity, and egotism first. There was no internal checks and balances to keep things on track. It's therefore no surprise that the superior and exclusive spirit has risen up amongst them, as well as many other human vices.

Its their first steps that set them in a bad direction I'm thinking. Their history that is the first thing to blame.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by LoveHim&HearHim

Usurpation of the Headship of Christ

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Col. 1: 13-20


I realize this was not one of the 12 items in your list but I feel that all 12 items you listed have its root problem due to the usurpation of the headship of Christ.

I think you make a good point. Any time we move away from Him, there's really only one other source - the flesh. And no matter how good the thing seems that the flesh is doing, it's still not of Him. The world (of course) and the church are full of it! But God's one solution to all this was crucifixion, that Christ's life might be manifested.

Any way . . . once a focus is on anything other than Christ Himself, like a man or some "good" teaching, away we go - off snorkeling in the weeds!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

(1) The pride and lust can be tied back to misogyny, (2)because sisters can be very powerful. Just considering what sister “rebellions” have done in the last decade to “undermine” the LC can make any leading brother afraid.

I need to read up on Darby..

(1) How so? Are women not as prone to pride and lust as men? (2)Some women are assertive while others not so much. How do you mean "sisters can be very powerful".

Sister rebellions? I only know of one "sisters 'rebellion, '" ever, which occurred in 1977, and this has been debunked. Are you referring to something specific?

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

As per discussion on another thread, I'm thinking another big error might be the LC preaching of "God's Governmental Authority on Earth." (It might also tie-in a little with number 9: "Central control while preaching local autonomy.") It's a teaching that makes members think church leaders are on a lofty pedestal and, to a high degree," above all reproach. Therefore many leadership related issues basically get ignored with minimal accountability or correction, and then just festers in the body causing a myriad of things . . .

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Nell

(1) How so? Are women not as prone to pride and lust as men? (2)Some women are assertive while others not so much. How do you mean "sisters can be very powerful".

Sister rebellions? I only know of one "sisters 'rebellion, '" ever, which occurred in 1977, and this has been debunked. Are you referring to something specific?

Nell

Hi Nell, by “rebellion”, I mean whenever a sister is censored for her views or voice. I know that the LC sees them as “rebellions” but they are not so. More like sister whistleblowers. I started one in CA and Jo started a letter exposing truths.

And by pride, I think this may be different based on context. For me as a millenial, I see the pride and lust of the leading brothers not wanting the sisters to have a say in anything, this can just be due to my own experience in the specific localities I was in. Like I was 19 when I started the mini “rebellion” and for the elders to want to censor me was ludicrous. If you ask anyone I met what happened, they will deny or say they dont remember me. After all, I was just speaking to other sisters about the wrong things we saw in the local church. But then the elders step in and tell them not to associated with me anymore. So yes, I guess I’m basing it off my own experiences. They were very afraid of me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Hi Nell, by “rebellion”, I mean whenever a sister is censored for her views or voice. I know that the LC sees them as “rebellions” but they are not so. More like sister whistleblowers. I started one in CA and Jo started a letter exposing truths.

Seriously naive here. I have seen far more brothers censored for their views. The authoritarian LC system I knew was far more brutal and abusive to the guys than to the ladies. YMMD. I never saw a sister shamed in public.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Seriously naive here. I have seen far more brothers censored for their views. The authoritarian LC system I knew was far more brutal and abusive to the guys than to the ladies. YMMD. I never saw a sister shamed in public.

just because you never saw something doesnt mean it didnt happen.It may be back then when they were more brutal to the brothers or your personal experience, but times have changed and LC has gotten strict with sisters as well, has always been. And Good, I wouldnt have wanted you to see me shamed in public. Also stop being rude to me on the main forum. UntoHim is unto us.

[Sons to Glory!]

Okay - can we get back to the main topic now? So where are we . . . ?

[aron]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The pride and lust can be tied back to misogyny, because sisters can be very powerful. Just considering what sister “rebellions” have done in the last decade to “undermine” the LC can make any leading brother afraid.

I need to read up on Darby..

The greatest error is to have respect of persons. We brothers liked the Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network (WLMCPGN) because automatically half the members were inferior. Maybe we got shamed more in public, but that was because we were being groomed to lead, to shame others. Sisters weren't even worth shaming individually, they could be dismissed categorically.

"Sometimes I think the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister". This was from a leading one, RK, in a conference. And this was a group that lauded Madame Guyon! Jessie Penn-Lewis! Elizabeth Fischbacher (WN's muse, who translated all his speeches into books). Ruth Lee, who alone sat with WL during the "restoration meeting" of WN after years out of power. Peace Wang, Margaret Barber, Dora Yu, ... where would any of these fit in the WLMCPGN today? Nowhere is where. They are just props, paper dolls, used and discarded. There's no love, just respecting of persons and jockeying for temporal power.

God's plan for humanity, supposedly 'recovered' by Mary E McDonough... but where would Mary E. McDonough be today in the WLMCPGN? She'd better keep her mouth shut. But she's conveniently dead, so she can be marketed, safely.

http://marymcdonough.ccws.org/redemption/index.html

See, e.g.,

https://www.lsm.org/pdfs/Mystery-of-...HL-English.pdf

Jesus taught that with the gentiles the great ones lord it over the others, but in the kingdom of God, the least on earth are greatest in heaven. Jesus reversed temporal rules of power, traditional power relationships. But two decades later, James saw this distorted and abusive human-relation structure coming back into the fellowships of faith and exposed it (James 2). The Christian assembly was designed to be completely subversive of traditional power structures. But the assembly has instead gotten co-opted by those who want to dominate others. It started almost immediately.

To love is to give to someone else, even when they can't pay you back. The poor, the sick, the weak, the aged, the forgotten orphan, the imprisoned... give them attention, care, food, shelter, water, comfort. If you do this, if you "love those who can't love you back", then "your reward will be great in heaven". In the WLMCPGN you got instead the kind of attention a vampire gives to its victim. They look for "good building material" and "love" your blood and crave it, in a kind of lust for dominion over others. And the preaching of respecting of persons makes the recipient a compliant mark in their design. God's Deputy Authority and all that... Today's Noah, Today's Moses, Today's Paul, Minister of the Age, God's Humble Bondslave, the the Seer of the Vision of the Age etc etc. It's all part of a marketing ploy to pull the unsuspecting into the ministry nets, to be pierced and drained and tossed aside.

[Ohio]

15. Those worthless golden yellow interlocking chairs.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

As UntoHim said, the very fact that a list this long, that can easily be made much longer, can be created speaks volumes already.

This one is right up there. The whole idea of a "restored" or "recovered" church. Look up "One True Church" or "Restored Church" or similar words on a Google search and you get dozens of hits. A lot of people have successfully used this dodge. Divide and conquer.

Even the "Reformation" is suspect in my eyes, and I'm a card-carrying Born Again Baptist. All these people getting visions of recovery or reformation or restoration bring further splinter cells and alienation. Even the EOC is a splinter cell - read on the Chalcedon Conference some time. They were splitting hairs and splitting assemblies long before Martin Luther came along.

Either God raised Jesus from the dead, or not. The gospel preached by Peter on Pentecost morning was a simple one. Either his narrative, his witness is true, or it isn't. That's where faith comes in. Either you believe it (because you want to) or you don't (because you don't want to). It's a personal journey. Don't impose your 'vision' on others. That is not the gospel message. The gospel (to me) is that Jesus lowered himself to nothing, and through his humbling we're reconciled, restored, both to God and to one another. Everything that needed recovery was done on the cross, and in the grave. The empty tomb was a witness, and the angels reminded the astonished entrants of this simple fact. "He is not here - he is risen"

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

15. Those worthless golden yellow interlocking chairs.

YES! I don't miss those at all. (they musta got a good deal on them, because they were everywhere!)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

YES! I don't miss those at all. (they musta got a good deal on them, because they were everywhere!)

Those chairs were apparently a vehicle to "recover" or "restore" son Timothy's finances, post-DayStar Motorhomes. Timothy got a good deal on them, not sure anyone else did. But we'll never know, because when WL was asked where the money went, he said that was his personal business.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

It's a personal journey. Don't impose your "vision" on others. That is not the gospel message. The gospel (to me) is that Jesus lowered himself to nothing, and through his humbling we're reconciled, restored, both to God and to one another. Everything that needed recovery was done on the cross, and in the grave. The empty tomb was a witness, and the angels reminded the astonished entrants of this simple fact. "He is not here - he is risen"

Since the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the very heart and the root of the Christian faith, it stands to reason that any significant departure from, much less perversion of, this Gospel will lead any group of believers - no matter how sincere - into a system of error. Witness Lee taught that he had a "higher gospel". We should have all known that this was in error. Unfortunately, most of us were gullible babes, silly little "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Eph 4:14) Most of us were pretty clueless, and decidedly and blissfully ignorant of the danger we got ourselves in to. Before we knew what hit us, we were singing at the top of our lungs "Oh I'm a man, I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"

So what's the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church? Well, maybe the greatest error was a "different gospel"....and from this different gospel sprung forth all the errors we have been talking about. From this different gospel came forth a "different Jesus". From this different gospel came forth erroneous teachings, understandings and views about God and about Man. As I noted a little earlier in this thread, when you get the nature and character of God wrong, you really don't know God at all. What you really know is a mere caricature of God - a distorted and erroneous counterfeit of the true God, the creator of heaven and earth. What you really know is a different Jesus, a mere caricature of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself up for us at the cross. What you really know is not the Spirit of Truth, our only hope of ever being guided into the truth, but a caricature of the Holy Spirit, which is another spirit, the spirit of error.(1 Jn 4:6) And this is why our discussions about the trinity and modalism are so very important. Lee got God wrong. Lee got Jesus wrong. Lee got the Spirit wrong. Lee got Man wrong. Lee got the church wrong. Oh dear Lord Jesus, have mercy on us! Lead us into all truth. Your Word is truth. Only your Word is truth. Save us from any system of error. Wake us from our stupor.
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[awareness]

Killing critical thinking. And self reflection.

[jigsaw44]

@ohio
Those interlocking Chairs are a universal thing throughout all localities? Hahahahahahaha omg. That is so funny, is it some sense of oneness that they want to have???? Just the minor details of how the local churches run things on a miniscule scale is so hilarious. I could care less about interlocking Chairs, seems ok to me. But darn that is an interesting funny piece of info.

[Trapped]

How else would they fulfill Witness Lee's teaching that each local church be identical in color and outward appearance? The requisite chairs' quiet golden glow in every meeting hall must do the trick....

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Since the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the very heart and the root of the Christian faith, it stands to reason that any significant departure from, much less perversion of, this Gospel will lead any group of believers - no matter how sincere - into a system of error. Witness Lee taught that he had a "higher gospel". We should have all known that this was in error. Unfortunately, most of us were gullible babes, silly little "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Eph 4:14) Most of us were pretty clueless, and decidedly and blissfully ignorant of the danger we got ourselves in to. Before we knew what hit us, we were singing at the top of our lungs "Oh I'm a man, I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"

So what's the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church? Well, maybe the greatest error was a "different gospel"....and from this different gospel sprung forth all the errors we have been talking about. From this different gospel came forth a "different Jesus". From this different gospel came forth erroneous teachings, understandings and views about God and about Man. As I noted a little earlier in this thread, when you get the nature and character of God wrong, you really don't know God at all. What you really know is a mere caricature of God - a distorted and erroneous counterfeit of the true God, the creator of heaven and earth. What you really know is a different Jesus, a mere caricature of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself up for us at the cross. What you really know is not the Spirit of Truth, our only hope of ever being guided into the truth, but a caricature of the Holy Spirit, which is another spirit, the spirit of error.(1 Jn 4:6) And this is why our discussions about the trinity and modalism are so very important. Lee got God wrong. Lee got Jesus wrong. Lee got the Spirit wrong. Lee got Man wrong. Lee got the church wrong. Oh dear Lord Jesus, have mercy on us! Lead us into all truth. Your Word is truth. Only your Word is truth. Save us from any system of error. Wake us from our stupor.
-

That's interesting. And back in the time of the 60s and 70s, as babes, with a fresh experience of the Spirit flowing through us - we were all probably a little ga-ga with WL saying it was a higher, mo-better gospel! So we swallowed and kept swallowing the whole thing.

And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?

Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
-

Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

@ohio
Those interlocking Chairs are a universal thing throughout all localities? Hahahahahahaha omg. That is so funny, is it some sense of oneness that they want to have???? Just the minor details of how the local churches run things on a miniscule scale is so hilarious. I could care less about interlocking Chairs, seems ok to me. But darn that is an interesting funny piece of info.

I shouldn't complain. They were an improvement over those metal folding chairs.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:16-21)

Compare and contrast this Gospel with the gospel of Witness Lee.

If you think the Lee's gospel is the same, I will ask you to supply us with many quotes of Lee over the past 30-40 years of his ministry that comport with the passage I have quoted above. If you cannot easily do this, well then I would say that this is the answer to your question.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

The context for Paul's use of this phrase "different gospel" was the Judaizers message who preached that we must be circumcised in order to be saved. This occurred in Antioch resulting in the Acts 15 council. This happened to the Galatian believers who were subsequently lost. This was a constant struggle in the Gentile world after they heard Paul's gospel. Nearly every book of the NT shows the struggle between the true gospel of grace, and the "different gospel" brought by the Judaizers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:16-21)

Compare and contrast this Gospel with the gospel of Witness Lee.

If you think the Lee's gospel is the same, I will ask you to supply us with many quotes of Lee over the past 30-40 years of his ministry that comport with the passage I have quoted above. If you cannot easily do this, well then I would say that this is the answer to your question.
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I have seen a lot of commercials on TV recently with Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham. I thought he was preaching the true gospel, and when I heard him, I would pray for others to believe his message. Now I wonder.

His message did not exactly match the verses above. It was quite different.

Are you now saying that his brief gospel message on TV was a "different gospel?"

[aron]

I don't know about Frank Graham, but WL preached a different gospel. Anytime Matthew 18 principles are overturned and new principles like "drunken Noah" are inserted, it's a different gospel.

There are a lot of pseudo Christian groups like this. The founder/leader cannot, by definition, be wrong. So evils are done in the leader's name, and overlooked. Anyone who points out the obvious is condemned and expelled.

In this, they clearly "hate the light" as UntoHim's quote of John 3 says.

[Ohio]

There is an astronomical difference between "preaching another gospel" for salvation and the abusive authoritarian LSM practices that undermine Biblical principles like Matthew 18, I Cor 6, or I Tim 5. They are two different worlds. Ask Apostle Paul. He only referred to the Judaizers as those who brought "another" gospel, a "different" Spirit, or "another" Jesus. To be clear, Paul was referring to the OT practices of circumcision, Sabbath, Kosher, holidays, etc.

Characterizing WL in this way goes beyond the scripture. Paul did not condemn all his opponents in this way, and neither should we. If so, then Peter in Galatians 2 is a cult leader with another gospel. This is similar to labeling all those that we disagree with as being in a cult. I have never met with a church that was not at one time labeled a cult, heretical, etc. but Christians tend to reserve "another gospel" for the likes of Mormons and JW's.

Even Peter's gospel message in Acts 2 and Acts 3 do not look like John's gospel message in John 3. Ask Boxjobox. John speaks of Jesus as God, the Only Begotten Son, while Peter speaks of a man, who died for us, and was raised from from the dead. Peter demands repentance while John demands believing. Sound real "different."

So is the book of John or the book of Acts the real gospel, and which is "another" gospel? Which is the real Jesus, and which is "another" Jesus? Can I get saved thru the message of Acts 2 and 3, or must I get saved thru the message of John 3? Or are they both bad, and I must get saved thru the message of Romans 10?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is an astronomical difference between "preaching another gospel" for salvation and the abusive authoritarian LSM practices that undermine Biblical principles like Matthew 18, I Cor 6, or I Tim 5. They are two different worlds. Ask Apostle Paul. He only referred to the Judaizers as those who brought "another" gospel, a "different" Spirit, or "another" Jesus. To be clear, Paul was referring to the OT practices of circumcision, Sabbath, Kosher, holidays, etc.

Forcing Gentile converts to adopt Jewish practices is different from the gospel given in the NT. But it's not the only gospel that is different. Suppose Paul had said, "I am the MOTA. Normal rules of accountability like what Jesus taught in Matthew 18 don't apply to me. That's only for the small potatoes." He'd be preaching a different gospel.

Suppose in Acts 4 & 5, when they sold properties, and laid the proceeds at Peter's feet, then he opened a ski area on Mount Hermon, and put his family members in charge. Then, when they asked where the money went, he said, "That's my personal business." That would be a different gospel.

Suppose Philip put family members in charge of his ministry office, and then they started abusing church members, and Philip had the victims relocated, and witnesses expelled from church fellowship. Then Philip would be preaching a different gospel.

I don't care how impressive their messages seem. If they act like that, then they hate the light, as John 3 says, and they preach a gospel of darkness. When the light becomes dark, how great is the darkness. Now, we all are short of God's glory. But that is why James says, "Don't be many teachers, because you fall under greater condemnation." It's bad enough being a sinner trying to make it home. Don't make it worse by saying you are the Grand Pooh-Bah, that you have a separate set of rules because the 'light' has shown you this. That's a false light, and a different gospel.

https://laist.com/2020/04/14/la-luz-...on-profile.php

How bad does it have to get, before people start to realize, "Something ain't right here"? Apparently it has to get really, really bad.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Forcing Gentile converts to adopt Jewish practices is different from the gospel given in the NT. But it's not the only gospel that is different. Suppose Paul had said, "I am the MOTA. Normal rules of accountability like what Jesus taught in Matthew 18 don't apply to me. That's only for the small potatoes." He'd be preaching a different gospel.

You fail to distinguish between falsifying the way of salvation and abusive leadership. Jesus said "I am the way," but with another gospel, the way of salvation is taken away and replaced. In Paul's time that replacement was OT practices such as circumcision. What is "really bad" is when people go to hell because they trusted in dead works and not the blood of Jesus.

I hate to see abusive and fleshly practices by rotten leaders too. There is no way to justify or coverup this stuff. But even Jimmy Swaggert, with his own motel laiazons, still preached the gospel of Christ, believing in the desth and resurrection of Jesus our Savior. These are personal failures that bring shame to His wonderful name, but his followers at least hear good news.

This in no way justifies the sins of ministers. They are held to a higher standard. Discipline for their sins should be made public. But where do we draw the line. If the message of every preacher is discredited by his sin, then there is no more gospel.

[UntoHim]

Ohio,

Yes, the different gospel and the different Jesus that Paul was referring to in Galatians was that of the 1st century Judaizers, and maybe a reference to some others attempting to influence the new believers. But I'm sure you realize that there has been another 2,000 years of church history since. Over the centuries, many false teachers and false prophets have preached another gospel and another Jesus. The different Jesus' started almost immediately after the Lord Jesus' departure, and the different gospels had already been preached during Paul's ministry to the churches. The Lord Jesus warned his disciples "For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray". (Matt 24:5) It seems that Jesus was warning the church about a different Jesus even before Paul. And the apostle Paul warned about another gospel that would be preached after his death: "I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."

I don't know much about that "another gospel" that was preached in first century Galatia. I don't know much about that "another Jesus" that those Judaizes were preaching. What I do know, and what I am referring to, is the another gospel and another Jesus that Witness Lee taught. Unfortunately, I am very familiar with this another gospel that Lee taught, and I am very familiar with this another Jesus that Lee taught. And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Benson Phillips, the president of the Living Stream Ministry, who proclaimed that unless you fully imbibe Lee's gospel and Lee's Jesus, one cannot be sanctified. He also said that anyone who abandons Lee's gospel and Lee's Jesus will never become a great spiritual person. (whatever that means). And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Minoru Chen, the most blended of Blended Brothers. Minoru recently proudly boasted that he was "filled with bother Lee's spirit!" So this is what happens to a person that spends 50+ years imbibing, preaching and teaching Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus. With Minoru, I guess we can ad another another - another spirit. And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Ron Kangas. Brother Ron is so sold out to Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus that he proudly proclaimed that none of the spiritual giants of the past 2,000 years could "match" Witness Lee. That's right...Luther's gospel....no match! Darby's Jesus....no match!

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the message of every preacher is discredited by his sin, then there is no more gospel.

Witness Lee's different gospel and Witness Lee's different Jesus were discredited and debunked by Christian apologists and writers without knowledge or regard for his personal sins. The Daystar debacle has little to nothing to do with the different gospel that Lee preached. Phillip Lee has little to nothing to do with the different Jesus that Lee taught. Take a look at Open-Letter.Com The concerns that are expressed are altogether focused on Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus, and there is no mention of his personal sins. Sorry, but your argument here is without merit.
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[Sons to Glory!]

We've accumulated a number of comments regarding what folks here think is the biggest error. I've quickly gone through this thread and have added a few things (in blue) that people have brought up.

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Preaching a different gospel
14. Preaching a different Jesus
15. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
16. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
17. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
18. The concept of "Recovery"

So there doesn't seem to be any consensus on these things - we seem to be all over the map! Is there maybe a way to consolidate these in some way? That is, have some things on this list occured that are the result of another root cause?

(my vote is those funky, interlocking yellow chairs - somehow I think that's caused the majority of issues!! )

[HERn]

Hi StG!

Does your church have a website? The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is enamored with the local church practices (without the fanatical following of Nee/Lee) and I think he would be interested in learning about your locality.

The reason I'm asking here and not by PM is that members of this site might also be interested.

Thanks for any references or links you may provide.

HERn

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi StG!

Does your church have a website? The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is enamored with the local church practices (without the fanatical following of Nee/Lee) and I think he would be interested in learning about your locality.

The reason I'm asking here and not by PM is that members of this site might also be interested.

Thanks for any references or links you may provide.

HERn

Sure! And if they have any questions, I'll do my best to answer. Scottsdale Church

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Sure! And if they have any questions, I'll do my best to answer. Scottsdale Church

Thanks! I forwarded him the link.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ohio,

Witness Lee's different gospel and Witness Lee's different Jesus were discredited and debunked by Christian apologists and writers without knowledge or regard for his personal sins. The Daystar debacle has little to nothing to do with the different gospel that Lee preached. Phillip Lee has little to nothing to do with the different Jesus that Lee taught. Take a look at Open-Letter.Com The concerns that are expressed are altogether focused on Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus, and there is no mention of his personal sins. Sorry, but your argument here is without merit.

Looks like neither you nor Ohio understood, which is perhaps on me, because I tend to state my gut reaction or end point and then enumerate why, at least to my satisfaction. But it often doesn't work, so I'll try again.

The basis of the Christian faith is repentance. In the Bible, humankind is separated by sin. Separated from God, from self, from each other, from creation. The call of the NT gospel is to repent - Jesus and John the Baptist both came out of the desert calling all people to repent. Those who wouldn't repent - scribes, lawyers - were singled out for approbriation.

So where to we find NT scripture to lead us to think this is no more relevant? Where do we see one single special brother or sister, to whom the Matthew 18 rules don't apply? It's not about sin, but about repentance. Where do we see justification for saying, "Brother 'X' is always right, even when he's wrong." Where do we see, "I don't care for right and wrong [read, sin] but only for the sense of life"? Ohio brings up Jimmy Swaggert... good example, actually: suppose Witness Lee and Philip Lee had publicly repented, with tears, like JS did? Then there might be some hope for this movement. They did not, and there is none. It is a different gospel. Suppose WL and son Timothy sat down in front of the church, post-Daystar, and said, "The money's gone. Here's what happened." .. and gave a full accounting, transparent? Then there might be hope for their gospel. They did not, and there is none. Until there is repentance there is no hope.

Suppose Jimmy Swaggert, post-exposure, had buried or relocated the involved parties, run all the witnesses out of town as "rebels", and terrorised the church not to speak of his affairs? Then he'd be preaching a different gospel. Not the gospel of Jesus Christ but the gospel of self. Just like WL did.

That's why all the open letters about theology don't really impress me. They are not wrong, but they are unnecessary. I don't care how many apologists like Hank H they dredge up to say it's just a misunderstanding, if we just realize what is meant by 'persons' and 'energies' and 'essences' then it's all good. No, Hank, it's not all good. It's all bad.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So there doesn't seem to be any consensus on these things - we seem to be all over the map! Is there maybe a way to consolidate these in some way? That is, have some things on this list occured that are the result of another root cause?

The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to.
Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Curious

The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to.
Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

So what you and Aron are saying is the root of much of it is pride and unrepentance?

[UntoHim]

I'm a little afraid that any extensive search for a "root cause" will lead us to be missing the forest for the trees. In the case of this thread, that would be missing out on what are the actual "greatest errors". Furthermore, expanding the list out to include such ostensibly innocuous things such as meeting hall chairs, and even "the concept of recovery", would be taking our eyes off the ball in my view.

For some teaching or practice to be considered "in error", there has to be an established biblical truth or set of truths that the teaching or practice has departed from. All biblical truths are necessarily exclusive. If something is actually a truth, then by definition it is exclusive. If it is true that the sky is blue, then it cannot simultaneously be considered as red.

And this is how I have determined that the greatest error of Witness Lee and his followers is that they have departed from the biblical Gospel, and the biblical Jesus. The historical, biblical Gospel - the irreducible, unassailable, all-sufficient Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Gospel first preached by John the Baptist, then by the Lord Jesus himself, then by first generation apostles and disciples, then by the 2nd generation of disciples and believers, and then by all genuine disciples and believers down through church history until this very day. The true Gospel has two main components: The Giver - God Himself - "For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son". The receiver - "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". Any Christian teacher who takes away from, adds to or distorts in any way, shape or form, this Gospel is preaching another gospel. There is no lower gospel. There is no higher gospel. If one is not preaching and teaching this true Gospel, they are indeed preaching and teaching "another gospel".

Now we come to "another Jesus". At the very heart of the historical, biblical Gospel is the historical, biblical Jesus - The Lord Jesus Christ - the only begotten Son of the Blessed One - the Christ - The Messiah - The Anointed One - The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world - Jesus Christ the Righteous - The Living One who was dead and is now alive forevermore - And his Name is called the Word of God - The historical, biblical Jesus who is presented, described, quoted, loved and hated, praised and scorned, mocked and worshipped, crucified and resurrected, raised from the dead and taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God - the Lord Jesus Christ who is there within the pages of the Gospels. There is no such thing as a true, biblical Jesus apart from the Bible. There is the true Jesus, and there is another Jesus. There is no partially-biblical Jesus. There is no semi-biblical Jesus. There is no extra-biblical Jesus.
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[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

I agree with the above. The root cause is seen in Genesis 3: disobedience, sin, death. The rest of it, including WL creating his own ad hoc theology whose only consistency was that it consistently benefitted his guanxi network, follows. The inability to admit any error and to learn from mistakes, to admit ignorance and learn from others, are part of the theology's course.

[Curious]

May I suggest to UntoHim that we are talking different angles of the same truth. I think aron and I are looking at motivation, and you are looking at the resulting actions of wrong motivation. As the thread is digging for the ‘root’ of the problem, my conviction is that it always starts with motivation.

God promises to give wisdom freely to us, we just need to ask. But when we are off in our heart motivation, our deep hidden real agenda, we go astray and seek wisdom ourselves to prop up our actual goal and miss the voice of wisdom, and her insight. (‘her’ according to proverbs personification of wisdom)

On post 10, Ohio stated the following: ‘At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power’. I agree that all of StG’s 18 points, (except for the yellow chairs), can be chalked up to these two agendas. Only I could vamp the pride one up to grandiosity of self, or pride in its extreme, on the MOTA claim. All control embedded in the 18 points is to facilitate the pride and lust for power, so it’s a motivation but only to serve another, deeper root motivation. Rebellion at the root of the original division, (ie WN’s desire to separate and form his own church), immaturity, (as a permanent, unchanging state, that is), unrepentance, all of these are expressions of, and/or serving the root pair. Pride and lust for power. Even lust for power could be attributed to serving the greater purpose of pride perhaps.

Fully agreed, the tangled-up rabbit-warrens of modalism and other theological errors are very important to unravel . The twisting of the gospel so as to try to support the root agenda, has created much confusion and hurdles for people and need attending to.

As to finding the base root of all this confusion, I put a lot of weight into ‘God judges the heart,’ as it is the source of our direction. When the motivation is about self, as satan’s attempt to elevate himself testify in the 5 ‘I wills’ of the book of Isaiah chapter 14, that’s where the corruption begins. I think it's clear that WN, and certainly WL, are guilty of this error. My own ancestors are guilty of this error, and with the right opportunity, I know myself well enough to see, I am/could become critically at risk of this error too. The lesson is to be wise to know and be wary of this risk.

[UntoHim]

Thanks for your reply Curious, I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. I wanted to repost one of your earlier posts, because I think it kind of illustrates the "truth" that you speak of:

Originally Posted by Curious

You know I was thinking, the core or original error might just be the separation from the established denominations and forming a Christian Church in China that had no accountability or connection to any balanced Christian group. Doing this too soon, without having learned much foundational lessons needed before branching off and separating themselves.
If they had moved towards autonomy gradually, and experienced healthy accountability, (as many protestant denominations have had good systems of internal accountability), they could have grown into something valid and productive.
They became autonomous and independent to 'young', to immature, and too bound to Chinese culture and spirituality. In their rebellion, immaturity and cultural blinkers, they were bound to go astray in a multitude of ways. They missed figuring out what had really happened to cause denominations to be formed in the first place, judging them negatively but not giving it all deeper thought. And they had not dealt with pride, vanity, and egotism first. There was no internal checks and balances to keep things on track. It's therefore no surprise that the superior and exclusive spirit has risen up amongst them, as well as many other human vices.
Its their first steps that set them in a bad direction I'm thinking. Their history that is the first thing to blame.

Excellent and comprehensive treatment of the history of the Local Church movement.

I guess my burden was/is to address the greatest errors in doctrine and teaching. (not so much addressing the practices, although many of the practices are unbiblical and unhelpful at best, and many are actually very harmful in my view) Actually, it's very difficult to judge one's "motivation", even if they straight up tell you what there motivation is. A person, especially a Christian, can have the best of intentions and motivations, yet find themselves totally out of the will of God, and even worse, operating in a manner which is in opposition to the will and purposes of God. One could have the best of intentions and motivations and find themselves teaching and preaching another gospel and another Jesus. How I see it, the actual root of many (most) of the problems we see in the Local Church of Witness Lee have their fundamental roots in the false and heretical teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. All the outward aberrations and errors in practice have their roots in the false teachings, and not the other way around as you brothers have proposed. But hey, maybe it's just two different sides to the very same coin. You guys are probably right. It's not a hill that I'm ready to die on, much less even fight over......now pass the mashed potatoes and gravy!
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[Curious]

Thanks, UntoHim, for your kind words.

I agree with you that motivation is not easily tangeable and often more clear in hindsight rather than on the ground, so to speak. Doctrine is a much clearer area, and avoids judging personally.

Doctrine/teachings are objective, motivation exists in a more subjective field. Though it can be exposed through considering multiple dodgy doctrines and theology, I'm my opinion.

Restoring sound theology is certainly a very good and important task for this forum. I was only exposed to a limited amount of LC peculiar doctrines, by the members I knew, so I'm not too qualified to engage in these discussions as you all. But I can verify them from my experiences though.

[Sons to Glory!]

Agree that motivations are often hard to determine and measure. However, we can more clearly see the fruit of someone's motivation. What we have now in the LC, at least from what I can tell, is the fruit is greatly Lee-centric and not Christ-centric. They may talk about Christ, but it's all from the standpoint of Lee's teaching, etc. And the gatherings, again as far as I can tell, focus more on testifying of Lee rather than testifying of the real and fresh experiences Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Killing critical thinking. And self reflection.

I missed you saying this before, so let me add it to the list:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Preaching a different gospel
14. Preaching a different Jesus
15. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
16. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
17. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
18. The concept of "Recovery"
19. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

*Let me say that to me, self reflection can go two ways. One is a kind that we try to shine a light onto ourselves (in my experience this usually doesn't lead us to a good place), and the other is where we give it to Him and ask for His light to shine on us.

And on further reflection, my vote is still on the pride and eletism produced through the dogged promotion of that most "superior" teaching of the so-called "ground of oneness." It seemed like this was the most visible and divisive. Once you think you've got something that others don't, then it starts leading you into all kinds of erroneous paths . . . Then you become isolated and cut off, and the life-flow in the body ebbs. Once the life is gone, you just have the animated flesh producing it's garbage.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to. Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. .. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

I wanted to come back to this. WN started out getting trained in the Christian walk, by someone who'd given up on fellowship, who was so misunderstood that she went solo. WN got under her wing, and there, he chafed under cooperating/submitting with other students. He famously chafed under Leland Wang, who went on to become the "Billy Graham of China" by some accounts. Nee didn't want to go along with Wang, to submit to Wang's leadership. Barber made him do so because Wang was older. I remember Lee writing about this.

Later, Nee got separated from Wang over some manufactured pretense, and took over the Shanghai Church Assembly hall, which Wang had started. Then, suddenly Nee "recovered" authority and submission. Suddenly it's not about your conscience, but unquestioning obedience. Funny how that works. The rebel soul gets in power, suddenly he/she discovers that obedience is paramount.

And more rebellion - Barber had told Nee not to read 'mystics' but he read them anyway. The lure of forbidden fruit was evidently too strong, and pulled him in. Then, he wrote the "Spiritual Man" which was mostly plagiarized J Penn-Lewis. If you read the publisher's note to the 2nd Edition they admit as much. But in China, plagiarizing doesn't have the same onus as the West, and they said that it was a kind of honoring.

So Nee got famous copying a book that he was told not to read... he was, what, 22 years old? Lee said that when he first read something by Nee, he thought he must be some old guy, so spiritual and wise. Oops. Not so... just a young guy showing off. Doesn't the Bible warn us about this?

Then, look at his ideas. All over the place but always they benefit the person of the idea's originator, Mr. Watchman Nee. Just like Lee did years later, where every conference was a chance to tighten the noose a little more. Nee discovered "localism" and pried the Chinese away from the Western influence. Then, he discovered "centralism" and the "Jerusalem Principle". He went 180 degrees and nobody notices? Lee did the same thing. We had to sort "early Lee" with "later Lee" to figure out where we stood v/v his teachings.

And on and on, until Watchman Nee's final confession at the Chinese Communist Show trial. Storms and rebellions and purges. Then Witness Lee brought the circus to the USA. Southern California was a tree ripe for the picking. And off it went again. Immaturity and Rebellion, Mark IV with Confusion and Terror Mark IV to follow. When I came in, they called them "storms" and didn't want to talk about them. Just call O Lord, he'll change your life....it was all about thoughtless conformity. Just be simple, enjoy the riches, brother! But we were following what had all started 80 years earlier with some young Chinese 'rebel' who didn't want to go along, but to strike out on his own. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

Originally Posted by Thrift Books Dot Com

It's hard to believe that Watchman Nee had only been a Christian for a few years and was in his early twenties when he wrote The Spiritual Man. This is the first and only book of any substantial size that Nee himself ever wrote, and it is the most comprehensive treatment of spirit, soul, and body ever written.

Author: Watchman Nee

Cited by: 10

Publish Year: 1968

[Curious]

Wow, I didn't know all that information, though I had some of a picture mainly from other posts on this forum.

So how could I be right in my assessment without even knowing chunks of the actual actions of Watchman Née? The answer is, because humans are predictable. 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' these sayings persevere and continue to be relevant because generally, all humanity is flawed in the same ways. Even those persons in history who have done great things and seemed not to be driven in this way, were often ones who identified and struggled against this tendancy in themselves. I could assess as I have concerning Née and Lee through having learned some basic truths about human nature from other sources, (and processing those with God's help).

I say this to encourage others. What you have learned through your experience of the LC equips you and me to have greater wisdom, understanding, discernment, and perception going forwards. (Though only as you and I sort it out, seperate it from our own reactions to it, and start to see it in a bigger frame of life). Then it becomes our treasure within. What we know and understand protects us henceforth and for the rest of our lives. As well it protects our families and anyone else who may listen to us.

Satan's fall from heaven has similarities with the fall of Adam and Eve. Reaching out to become the glorious one, rather than to worship Him. (... 'You will become like God' ....first step). Its the lie within the LC too. ('I am the center and the meaning of the universe'!.... words of well known LC song). No surprises, it's all very old and predictable. God must be so bored by it all!! And the more you know it, the more you can see it around us, and easily aroused within us too.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

13. Hypocrisy

What about my #13?

Hypocrisy didn't make the cut? It is the fourth post.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

What about my #13?

Hypocrisy didn't make the cut? It is the fourth post.

Nell

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

[Sons to Glory!]

I thought to line-up some things in an outline form (as mentioned in my last post) to organize things under a few main errors, but at this moment have no peace to do so. If someone else wants to take a crack at it . . .

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I thought to line-up some things in an outline form (as mentioned in my last post) to organize things under a few main errors, but at this moment have no peace to do so. If someone else wants to take a crack at it . . .

I have no intention to derail this thread, but just as a further example of what's been brought up on the forum the past week:

That phrase "have no peace" makes me furious.

In bringing this up, I'm not saying that you can never say it. I'm not asking you to refrain from using it or to change your ways at all. I'm just bringing it up to try to show you that even what seems like the most innocuous, normal "why can't I say that" phrases are like injections of poison into church kids.

I hate the phrase "....don't have the peace....". It makes my jaw clench, and my shoulders tighten, and starts to give me a headache, all without my realizing it. Why? Because it was used by my mother usually when I had fully been expecting to do something I looked forward to, or something totally non-sinful, that I prepared for, got ready for, got in the car for, anticipated doing, and then......

.....on the drive to it "I don't have the peace to keep going" would flow out of her mouth, and I became the most unimportant piece of nothing at the snap of a finger.

We would have to turn around, go back home, and whatever positive, pleasant thing I was looking forward to was ripped from me for no reason. Just because "the peace" said so.

"The peace" was wielded like a weapon, and there was never a reason given. "The peace" was the all-important thing and it didn't matter if it crushed me. I learned early on that there was nothing I could do, and if this nebulous, undefined, makes-no-sense lack of "peace" reared it's ugly head then no matter how I felt, I had no choice in the matter. I was powerless. I was meaningless. I was worthless.

God got whatever He wanted, right at the time when I was looking forward to something the most, and He didn't have to give a reason, and most of all, the excitement I had just seconds prior didn't matter. And I didn't matter.

Reading that you "have no peace to do" something makes me want to throw back a tall bottle of alcohol so I don't have to be reminded of how insignificant and worth absolutely nothing "God" made me feel in the local church as a kid.

And I'm saying that as a believer.

People on this forum, you are touching serious and sometimes life-threatening issues of deep pain, abuse, and trauma in the people who come here. I can only pray that somehow the God who sees into the areas of pain in your own life can help you understand the pain of others.

To keep this on topic, I don't have the desire to make an outline at the moment either.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That's quite the intense, visceral reaction, Trapped! Sorry you had that kind of experience. So maybe I should instead say, "Something inside me didn't feel right about making that kind of outline"? (but truly, I must say that the sensation I had is best described as no peace . . .)

Nell:
Seriously? Mockery? Can you be more offensive?

In the interests of protecting things from going sour here, I have two things to say.

First off, I want to give a bit of faith in StG. I did not read mockery into his post. It might be, or he might have just answered straightforwardly, acknowledging what Trapped explained, but also maintaining his right to choose words that he feels fit his experience best. Putting both on the table.

Personally, I don't think StG would have deliberately been nasty. I don't think that's who he is.

More significantly, I feel that Trapped has detailed something very important here in describing this to us. Church kids received a really bad deal, into their formative years too. This is not to be viewed lightly unless this forum wants to sweep them aside and treat them as they have been disregarded already. If they are 'triggered, sensitive to ' christian-ese' and being preached at'..... let's honour that. It's serious, as Trapped has said. His story is heartbreaking, and he's one that has come out strong, a survivor.

It doesn't hurt any of us to 'prefer one another'... That is the rubber hitting the road as Christians, we are called to that anyway. We could be right on the verge of being able to speak help and healing to large numbers of ECK's. People respond to feeling respected, honoured valued, cared for, listened to, given the benefit of the doubt. We have the power to express that to these abuse survivors, and they qualify for such care, their stories are heartwrenching.

QUOTE from Trapped:

'People on this forum, you are touching serious and sometimes life-threatening issues of deep pain, abuse, and trauma in the people who come here. I can only pray that somehow the God who sees into the areas of pain in your own life can help you understand the pain of others.'

To me these are extremely important words.

Through these recent tense conversations on this forum, a key has been revealed to us, one we didn't know about before. We didn't know all this Christian talk was putting them off, and worse, retraumatising them. We weren't trying to oppress them. But in learning that it did, we can approach them with that in mind. Let's be the red sea and part (adjust ourselves I how we interact with them) to let them embark on the journey through to a better place! (odd visual but it just came to me!). We can still chat to each other as we enjoy, just keep that to relevant thread topics.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Curious

We can still chat to each other as we enjoy, just keep that to relevant thread topics.

Okay, "interesting" sidebar. This sort of discussion seems to be popping up all over the LCD forum these days. Thanks, Curious, for your balanced view.

Let's now get back on track, and as Curious suggested, stick to the topic at hand. Personally, I don't feel to do much more with this thread's topic (LC's greatest errors),at least for now - it is making me a little uneasy. If others want to continue the thread's topic, that's certainly fine. Maybe I'll jump back in at some point, if so lead.

Perhaps what Trapped talked about could be continued in a new thread. (personally, I've never heard anyone repulsed by the "I didn't have peace" saying before . . ., but I respect that this was an offence to him)

[UntoHim]

How very ironic that in a thread entitled "What is the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church" that there is the exposure of perhaps the greatest error of them all - the abject inhumanity of false religion and false spirituality, and the damage that it wreaks upon all concerned.

Let's face it, false spirituality doesn't come naturally to us humans, it usually gets ingrained into our hearts and minds from false religion. Most of us are probably familiar with the famous proclamation of Ezekiel 36:25 - "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." But wait, wasn't this addressed to the Israelites, God's people? Why didn't he give them a new heart and a new spirit from the start? The answer is in the verse right before: I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. (Vr 24) "From all your idols". This indicates false religion. And remember , false religion always begets false spirituality.

When the people all gathered around the women caught in adultery, they saw to it that Jesus was there. They wanted to test him and his spirituality to see if he would pick up the stones to throw at the guilty party. It turned out that they were all very mistaken about Jesus. His "spirituality" was not based upon their false religion - a religion that would have stoned the woman to death - a false religion steeped in abject inhumanity. Jesus exposed their inhumanity, and in shame and disgrace they dropped their deadly weapons, and disappeared from the scene of the crime.

Friends, readers, lurkers, brothers and sisters, this is what I really mean when I speak of "another Jesus". Another Jesus would have condemned this woman and picked up the stones with the rest of the members of their religion. Another Jesus would probably not have even been there to save this woman.....he would probably have been sitting on the front row of the temple pray-reading and calling on the Lord. What I really mean when I speak of "another gospel", I mean a gospel which condemns with a haughtiness and inhumanity, and offers no grace. No love. No compassion. No understanding. This is not the Gospel that was brought to us in the Person of Jesus Christ. I know that we all remember John 3:16. Those who use this verse as a hammer or tool of condemnation are preaching another gospel. We need to move on to the next verse. "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him".

I am sorry for all those who have come to this forum and only felt the condemnation and inhumanity of false religion and false spirituality. This was the last thing I wanted when I set up this forum. I experienced first hand another Jesus and another gospel for about 20 years in the Local Church of Witness Lee. I have two daughters who went to "children's meeting" for many years, and now want nothing to do with the God of the Bible because they associate him with the haughtiness, inhumanity and disingenuous false spirituality of the false religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee. So I understand all too well what false religion does to those young people who were raised in it. I "came into" the Local Church as a 17 year old Junior in High School. I moved into the "brother's house" on my 18th birthday with a couple of brothers who are now considered as "Blended Brothers". I do know what false religion does to the hearts and minds of young people.

So, was this forum set up to be a place for healing from false religion and false spirituality? I have always hoped so. I have always prayed for this. I have always hoped and prayed that LocalChurchDiscussions could be a place where people can come to find the real Jesus and the real Gospel. I am so sorry that some have been hurt by those of us who still have another Jesus and another gospel ingrained into our hearts and minds. I still believe that there needs to be a venue where all sorts of people in all sorts of places in their journey can come and have dialogue. Maybe we can find the real Jesus and the real Gospel together?
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Maybe we can find the real Jesus and the real Gospel together?
-

Thanks for posting that, bro. Yes and Amen to the finding the real Jesus and His light to expose what's false and detrimental in all of us!

(and if this thread needs to be diverted to this topic for awhile, I'm fine with that)

[Curious]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

there is the exposure of perhaps the greatest error of them all - the abject inhumanity of false religion and false spirituality, and the damage that it wreaks upon all concerned.
a false religion steeped in abject inhumanity. Jesus exposed their inhumanity, Another Jesus would probably not have even been there to save this woman.....he would probably have been sitting on the front row of the temple pray-reading and calling on the Lord. sorry for all those who have come to this forum and only felt the inhumanity of false religion and false spirituality.

Beautifully said, Untohim. That's why you are the moderator!!!

Isn't it a beautiful thing when we each can dare to be a bit vulnerable on the forum. It counters any rising hostility, that can so easily happen as hurt can so easily link in to anger, anger to accusation. Trapped took a step of deliberate vulnerability to share about the effect a simple phrase has had on him. It's never easy to do, even on an anonymous forum, as the content he shared is deeply personal and so much pain is still bound in it. He did that for the sake of others he wanted to explain their grievance better.

To add a little to the point Trapped has made: I changed the version of my first name in my early 20's to distance myself from the identity associated with the version that had become the norm in my teens. I squirmed inside whenever I even came across another person going by that old version of my name, as its negative association with the identity I had of myself remained so strong. And I was only one word, my reaction to it completely irrelevant to anyone else. Its also why impoverished nations in Africa and the Philippines can spend money they cannot afford, changing place-names because of the psychological implications of the old names for them.

Has anyone here realised that according to the law, Rahab the prostitute should have been stoned to death when she arrived to join Israel? The law said so. She was an adultereress by trade. Also, technically, the spies should have made no agreement with any caananite. It was forbidden. It should have been considered null before God and they could have killed her alongside the other residents of Jericho. Forget what was going on in her heart, that is irrelevant to the law! My pastor says God put lots of such contradictions throughout the Bible on purpose. It wasn't just Jesus that turned these things on their heads! Rahab married, (a privilege denied to Dinah and Tamar, David's daughter, after both had been raped once!) and had Boaz, whose level of rejection amongst the Israelites made him very aware of how vulnerable Ruth was. It's evidence that the 'religious' were prevalent even then. God was happy with Rahab, as commented many times afterwards. She's on the same level as Abraham in fact, according to James. She was an ancestor to Jesus himself. I love how you have spoken of the woman caught in adultery in the same way, Untohim. It's what we all need to know about God's character, whether we believe or not. It is the antidote to all this damage.

[Curious]

I do think I understand, enough to respect your position. I have been through a similar journey myself, in a different context. StG has had another set of life experience that is valid for other situations. I have learned to respect that too, he may not be equipped to be someone who can be a lead in offering care to you right now. He may have strengths in other areas and I don't think it makes him a bad person.

I was once a mess in the middle of a Christian healing organisation. Some people could see me through my anger and pain. Some could not, even in an organisation designed to help the wounded!! Even some on leadership took my anger personally. It's good to lean towards those who can help, and be respectful but remain distant with those who are not able to help in yours or my particular need. And in releasing the ones who don't get us, we can see more clearly the ways they are trying to be supportive within their own paradigm. It actually helped me to heal when I did that.

I did find what I needed and the volcanoes that were going off in me did settle down over time. Trapped and I have both had help in the form of counselling and deliberately prioritising effort to sort things out. To recognise the depth of impact these toxic experiences have had on a person's life can be a huge and scary step in itself. Alot of loving support is necessary. My heart is to be a support and I not alone in that on this forum.

[UntoHim]

Ok, Sons to Glory! started this thread. I think it is reasonable that the thread starter get to lead the conversation. A lot of extraneous issues have been introduced. The extraneous issues raised do have merit, but need to be addressed on another thread.

Back to the "greatest errors of Witness Lee and the Local Church"
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

A lot of extraneous issues have been introduced. The extraneous issues raised do have merit, but need to be addressed on another thread.

Back to the "greatest errors of Witness Lee and the Local Church"

The greatest errors of Witness Lee and the Local Church may make more sense when seen in context of the greatest errors of Christian church in toto.

Jesus taught, go to visit the sick, the imprisoned, give food to the hungry, comfort the weary. How does that sound like, "You must believe what I believe or you will be damned/imprisoned/killed"? Christians need to realize they don't have the answer. If God exists, and has the answer, He/She/It has surely been parsimonious in doling it out. Look at how much of "the kingdom of heaven" we've brought, and how much we've in fact denied and repressed, shunted away. So a little humility would be in order, no? A little of Paul's dictum, "Think the other one better than you" is in order.

But where was any trace of humility in the LC? No, it was "most Christians just don't get it. But we get it." And to other religions, or unbelievers, forget it! No humility at all. Just lip-curling condescension.

But that is a symptom of a larger issue. Three times by my count the Christian faith has had dominion on the earth - cultural, philosophical, economic, political. First was after Constantine. There was no Islam. Christianity was hegemonic in North Africa (Libya/Egypt), throughout the Middle East, Iran, Iraq, Greece, Italy, into Europe. And what happened? They fell to fighting over words and meanings of abstractions - doctrines. Second was the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire. Third was the American (Protestant) Century. In all 3 cases, Christianity held dominant & unchallenged position over large swaths of the globe. And look what they did with it... where was heaven on earth? So I daresay, a little humility is in order, here, a chance to question, and consider, and even reconsider, and to genuflect.

The writer of the NT epistle wasn't named James. He was named Ya'acob. Jacob. He was a Jew. But the translators evidently didn't like a Jewish name because, you know... the Jews killed Jesus. So they buried it. (Spanish call him 'Santiago', or 'Saint'.) The religious group that was started by Jews, and exported by Jews, and venerated a Jew ("King of the Jews" and all that) became known for ferociously persecuting them. The Orthodox pogroms in Russia, the Catholic Inquisition, the Protestant death camps in Poland.

A little humility might be in order. For all of us. Maybe, just maybe, we could learn from those who don't think like we do. Maybe we could listen, instead of pontificate. (this last comment is aimed not at any specific person, group, or poster on this forum. It's a generalization, based on the previous observations). Witness Lee sure didn't like to listen to others. Maybe we can learn from his example, and reconsider our ways.

So, the greatest error of the LC is that it is a Christian group, of Christian origin and orientation, and suffers from errors common to all Christian groups, only in extremis, in extreme degree. No Christian group is perfect. But the group that condemns all others as defective, is the most defective of all. In its refusal to learn, to listen, to repent, to grow, it becomes the symbol of self-righteous intolerance and religious priggery. Its only "truth" is its wholesale imposition of its fantastical delusions upon the naïve, the weak, the unwilling.

I believe God raised Jesus from the dead. I believe. But I think a little humility might be in order, for us all. Including, especially myself... I haven't got it going on, by any means. That's why I'm here, posting. Not to impose but to learn.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

I agree that WL's biggest error was his MOTA doctrine and the authoritarian structure and practices that flowed from that. Item 9. "Central control while preaching local autonomy" flowed from the MOTA doctrine, for example.

[jigsaw44]

Greatest flaw of the local churches is them following the doctrine/teachings of witness Lee. All the negativity of the local churches has a genealogy tree that goes back to witness Lee. Witness Lee as a man was just frankly a messed up person a person and had serious issues in terms of treatment and well-being of other people. He was so caught up in his own doctrine he forgot the most important commandments told by Jesus Christ himself. His obsession with his doctrine closed him off to the most essential commandments. In fact anything that associated with the most important commandments he dismissed and degraded. Friendship, epistle of James, family, and all these things are profusely taught in the gospels.

Paul's letters are supplemental to gospel and add to the richness of it, it does remove not parts of it. Jesus Christ is the only infallible being, even a man like Paul was humbled in his weaknesses in 2 Corinthians 12.Witness Lee is one of the many men who follow along the lines of- " the books of the Bible is the sole source of authority as long as it follows my "dOcTrIne". LC people will even straight up tell you certain books or scripture does not matter and is wrong cause it does not follow eMpErOr lEe doctrine of "God's Economy'. I'm telling you the madness is rampant in the LC and Evey negative aspect in the LC going from customs, code of conduct, lifestyle, beliefs, attitudes, relations, pride, and delusion- lead back to eMpeRor lee. Lee is the biggest cancer in the Local Church denomination, his ministry has created one of the most delusional, prideful, and lost group of Christian sects in the world.

[Sons to Glory!]

Rereading and reflecting on this thread's topic, I have to agree that the source of pretty much all the LC ills originated from WL (aka MOTA). But let me put forth a little different take on it. I've many times said on here that I praise the Lord he brought me to the group (early 70s) and that then He lead me out again a couple decades later. However, what really started my inner change, was the realization that something was seriously absent - it's when He began to show me that God's love for us really was the key motive in all He does.

In the LC, we were taught "God eternal had a purpose . . . spreading to eternal future." That is true, and I praise the Lord for showing us this. But the tone of of this teaching in the LC was not so much centered on God's love, but rather on the idea that God would get His purpose no matter what, and if any of us stood in His way He would flatten us like a pancake. This thought is off, because actually, God's purpose is all wrapped-up in His great love for us! As 2 Peter 3:9 says, The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God is not about achieving His purpose in spite of us - He is doing it because of us!

The light revealing God's love as His main motivator, is no small realization concerning what scripture is actually telling us about Him and His purpose. For me, it was the single biggest leap forward in my understanding of scripture: I believe wholeheartedly that Love is the key to understanding God and the Bible.

So consider what would have happened if love had been the main ingredient in WL's teaching and LC practice - many of the negative issues on this list probably wouldn't have been present at all. Can I get a witness?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Rereading and reflecting on this thread's topic, I have to agree that the source of pretty much all the LC ills originated from WL (aka MOTA). But let me put forth a little different take on it. I've many times said on here that I praise the Lord he brought me to the group (early 70s) and that then He lead me out again a couple decades later. However, what really started my inner change, was the realization that something was seriously absent - it's when He began to show me that God's love for us really was the key motive in all He does.

In the LC, we were taught "God eternal had a purpose . . . spreading to eternal future." That is true, and I praise the Lord for showing us this. But the tone of of this teaching in the LC was not so much centered on God's love, but rather on the idea that God would get His purpose no matter what, and if any of us stood in His way He would flatten us like a pancake. This thought is off, because actually, God's purpose is all wrapped-up in His great love for us! As 2 Peter 3:9 says, The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God is not about achieving His purpose in spite of us - He is doing it because of us!

The light revealing God's love as His main motivator, is no small realization concerning what scripture is actually telling us about Him and His purpose. For me, it was the single biggest leap forward in my understanding of scripture: I believe wholeheartedly that Love is the key to understanding God and the Bible.

So consider what would have happened if love had been the main ingredient in WL's teaching and LC practice - many of the negative issues on this list probably wouldn't have been present at all. Can I get a witness?

Hear! Hear! Here! Here!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hear! Hear! Here! Here!

Thanks! Well at least there was one witness . . .

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm going to bring this post to the top, in hopes there might be some more dialog regarding this specific topic. I don't want to assume because most didn't respond to it, that there was widespread agreement. But I do think love really might be the bottom-line key to what's missing here. What thinkest ye?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Rereading and reflecting on this thread's topic, I have to agree that the source of pretty much all the LC ills originated from WL (aka MOTA). But let me put forth a little different take on it. I've many times said on here that I praise the Lord he brought me to the group (early 70s) and that then He lead me out again a couple decades later. However, what really started my inner change, was the realization that something was seriously absent - it's when He began to show me that God's love for us really was the key motive in all He does.

In the LC, we were taught "God eternal had a purpose . . . spreading to eternal future." That is true, and I praise the Lord for showing us this. But the tone of of this teaching in the LC was not so much centered on God's love, but rather on the idea that God would get His purpose no matter what, and if any of us stood in His way He would flatten us like a pancake. This thought is off, because actually, God's purpose is all wrapped-up in His great love for us! As 2 Peter 3:9 says, The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God is not about achieving His purpose in spite of us - He is doing it because of us!

The light revealing God's love as His main motivator, is no small realization concerning what scripture is actually telling us about Him and His purpose. For me, it was the single biggest leap forward in my understanding of scripture: I believe wholeheartedly that Love is the key to understanding God and the Bible.

So consider what would have happened if love had been the main ingredient in WL's teaching and LC practice - many of the negative issues on this list probably wouldn't have been present at all. Can I get a witness?

[Robert]

Yesterday I spoke to one brother. He shared about children conference. One brother brought video explaining how God createt the world and about bible why we can believe in it. The main problem was after video. Plan was that parents had to pretend unbelievers and children had to prove their faith. Does it says anything to all of You? Do you see similaritu to LR movement? They invest not in reality but in talking about reality. They invest not in oneness but in producing oneness by obedience to teaching. They trust elders rejecting any correction rather than Holly Spirit able to speak directly to heart. If You do not believe in Spirit and think that You are the only and special tool, then it is obvious that you will protect Your idea because You are the center of it. The first lie was in garden of Eden. Do You now what was that? The idea, that Eve can decide by her own! Witness reach for tools obvious and known for every dictator: fear of loosing fellowship being rejected and ignored. For people who was renewed and hoping that we have family and can rely one on another it is really painful. But mature saint is strong enough to follow God rather than man.
It is not a matter of error. The whole idea of church was wrong from the beginning. Bad attitude, bad and unscriptural ideas. I will be so brave to say, they were false teachers. That is it.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Robert

Yesterday I spoke to one brother. He shared about children conference. One brother brought video explaining how God createt the world and about bible why we can believe in it. The main problem was after video. Plan was that parents had to pretend unbelievers and children had to prove their faith. Does it says anything to all of You? Do you see similaritu to LR movement? They invest not in reality but in talking about reality. They invest not in oneness but in producing oneness by obedience to teaching. They trust elders rejecting any correction rather than Holly Spirit able to speak directly to heart. If You do not believe in Spirit and think that You are the only and special tool, then it is obvious that you will protect Your idea because You are the center of it. The first lie was in garden of Eden. Do You now what was that? The idea, that Eve can decide by her own! Witness reach for tools obvious and known for every dictator: fear of loosing fellowship being rejected and ignored. For people who was renewed and hoping that we have family and can rely one on another it is really painful. But mature saint is strong enough to follow God rather than man.
It is not a matter of error. The whole idea of church was wrong from the beginning. Bad attitude, bad and unscriptural ideas. I will be so brave to say, they were false teachers. That is it.

Thanks. So are you saying you think the LC being "false teachers" is the greatest error?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. So are you saying you think the LC being "false teachers" is the greatest error?

In part WL, yes! I think the title of thread is a bit too general. Would be good to separate Witness Lee's person fro idea of Local Churches. Actally In London there are few districts where saints meet together. So idea is one thing but in fact they are in separate districts. Wold be nice if they see this hypocrisy of so strong proclamation about "one church" in one city. So there is one or five?
According to false teaching. Can we reject Peters letters just because of his hypocrisy? Do You think that after Paul rebuked him he repented? Can we laean from it? Yes! Can we judge Peter? No! Can we take something from what Witness saw? Yes! Can we judge his work and words or decision? Yes! If something was wrong or mistake it is not sin to see it and condemn.

Resuming in general: when I see all fruits of what he has done and said, i think nothing will happen if we throw away all these teaching togather with blind following. Just for any case. I thought You catch my line about tools. You can not replaced Holly Spirit's work. I can talk and write books hoping that You will step in my foot prints. But it does not work like this! Paul had hope and prayer only. One planted another add water, but only God can give a growth. That was my point. So if You push me to be more clear and adequate to thread: The biggest mistake of WL was hope and self confidence that he has a tools. He had know how. If You have just 100 saint led by Holly Spirit with different will and level of growth, how Yo can have Know How and create rules and principles! It had to lead to dictatorship. This is exactly against Lord Jesus' pattern- no pattern! Just live! I do not know how it happened and when, but little by little he believed more in himself than in Lord. This is amazing what he was saying and how he was acting. But raelly I am free of judging him permanently as person. May be he was reconciled with God last day and we will see him as overcmer? Do not ask who ascend to heaven... So except few obvious heresies ( God -man, preparing bide to cause Lord come earlier, relying on Holly Spirit that He will do all work for us without coowork, and few others) there was many good things. But remember, that he had read so many books of ancient brothers that even he was pride that he stands n others arms. If so, hen what was realy hi personal revelation. To wake up and check what is actually real, is better to reject all his books and grow in natural way under God's light. If You take photovoltaic panel it will transfer Sun light to cables and than make light in bulb.But is light in bulb Sun? Good servant is rather like a mirror than any transformator. So who care what Paul saw, and John and Peter and Witness?If there is no help and divine revelation causing You better relationship with God then this is vanity. But if in that ministry is something what God uses to bring You closer to Him, praise the Lord! I can find certain hidden thought in many books. On eof You said: we can not deal with it in one shot! But I hope all our thought can help others to deal with past and see what was wrong.

p.S. I found phonecall ercorded in 70's with WL and some brother. It was so nice to hear normal rude brother saying in terrible way" It is not your bussines" Yes, he was simply brother like me who need Grace, Just a sinner saved by grace. I regret that only few can be familiar with this tape. So let him R.I.P and go on! The Bible is base for us , Not WL or WN in XX century. God bless you!

[Awoken]

All of these things listed in the topic are problems but I think they all essentially stem from a lack of humility in front of God. The Lord instructed Moses to take off his sandals when he approached the burning bush because it was sacred ground. I kept thinking about that when things about the LCs started troubling me again. In Asian households you take your shoes off when you come in the house both for purposes of cleanliness and as a sign of respect to the host, so you're not tracking all the dirt from outside all over the place.

In the LCs there is a ton of talk about being "in spirit" but not a lot of talk about being led by the Holy Spirit. You can be "in your spirit" and still be proud as a peacock (see: John and James wanting to call fire down on the unbelievers).

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Awoken

All of these things listed in the topic are problems but I think they all essentially stem from a lack of humility in front of God. The Lord instructed Moses to take off his sandals when he approached the burning bush because it was sacred ground. I kept thinking about that when things about the LCs started troubling me again. In Asian households you take your shoes off when you come in the house both for purposes of cleanliness and as a sign of respect to the host, so you're not tracking all the dirt from outside all over the place.

In the LCs there is a ton of talk about being "in spirit" but not a lot of talk about being led by the Holy Spirit. You can be "in your spirit" and still be proud as a peacock (see: John and James wanting to call fire down on the unbelievers).

Good point, Awoken!
I am full of conclusions but no time really o put all of them here.
Recently I refreshed my contact with saints from Pentacostal Church from my youth. I have sweet memories from that time. When I visited them year ago, I felt like God was there! They are so humble and respectful to Bible and glorifying Lord from heart This hard to explain! How much different it is to pride tone of all LR leaders. They do not preach so much about we are sinners. They lost balance . We have to overcome flesh and sin. But when there are no testimonys about daily life with honest sharing, then we have only theology and empty words about overcoming. I prefer to heave fear of God and not miss That Day, then follow pride current flow and hear from God: Go apart from me... Fear of God is beginning of wisdome. Humility, humility and again humility. When we lose balance then we have such a words from Ron Kangas or Minoru Chan. If You sin against one man, go and apolgize one man. But if You sin against thousands...? I am curious if they will say one day: We were wrong and we are sorry! There is no such a spirit in them!
Ready to spend milions on suing saints? To protect name of organisation? WoW!
So, I am glad You also see this lack there.
This is good lesson for us to bring revelation from God back to Him as promised Isaac. Revelation from God is not to made human movement. It is to build the Body. And even worst thing is, that all I say is written in their books! But they did not apply it!
When I hear Ron or Minoru, theirs speech is so stinking of human power!
Ok. enough. I have to control this holly anger in me.

P.S. To be clear I do not recommend Pentacostal Church the same as any other. i can only recommend saints personally. That was my testimony. You can find churches under same name but so much different. Even here in one city was division in pentacostal church because young people needed drums and loud soulish modern christian music but older silver haired people preferred hymns with words full of meaning and more respectful. Where was Love?
I need real hollines in my life. All those symbols in LC and head full of knowledge did not help me in darkest days in my life. Only verses from Bible.