Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Alternative Views - Click Here to Start New Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-14-2018, 08:11 PM   #1
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,114
Default Discernment of spirits

Now let's have a discussion about something that no one can possibly know anything about so that anyone can venture an opinion and there was no way either through reason or evidence to demonstrate that it is right or wrong. Such a "thing" is the discernment of spirits.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 07:00 AM   #2
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,126
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Now let's have a discussion about something that no one can possibly know anything about so that anyone can venture an opinion and there was no way either through reason or evidence to demonstrate that it is right or wrong. Such a "thing" is the discernment of spirits.
This entire forum deals with the discernment of WL's ministry. Since WL has been utterly condemned by the verses in the Bible Evangelical is attempting an end run around these verses and want to say that calling "Lord Jesus" is evidence that the ministry is according to the Spirit.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 07:05 AM   #3
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,128
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Is this thread about Evangelical attempting an end run around the entire Bible? or about discerning spirits?
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 08:19 AM   #4
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,114
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Is this thread about Evangelical attempting an end run around the entire Bible? or about discerning spirits?
Couldn't the imputation of the former be an instance of the latter?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 08:21 AM   #5
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,128
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Couldn't the imputation of the former be an instance of the latter?
Maybe so. But I still don't know.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 08:16 AM   #6
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,114
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
This entire forum deals with the discernment of WL's ministry. Since WL has been utterly condemned by the verses in the Bible Evangelical is attempting an end run around these verses and want to say that calling "Lord Jesus" is evidence that the ministry is according to the Spirit.
While I am usually not fond of football metaphors, I must admit that the picture I imagine of Evangelical making an end-run around the Bible is vivid. "Utterly condemned" seems a bit harsh. Are you comfortable with the "lest ye be judged" clause, in Jesus's pronouncement on the matter? There does seem to be a relationship between calling on the Lord and the Spirit in the New Testament. But,as I recall, it became a rather dry and mechanical practice in the local churches. Now I realize I'm talking about my own subjective experience. But where the spirit is concerned, what else is there?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 06:34 PM   #7
Evangelical
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,976
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

"end run around the bible" is an exaggeration. Anyone can see that I am proposing the direct application of 3 key verses about discernment of spirits. I have not ventured beyond that.

The suitability of the 3 verses proposed, is enhanced by the fact that the situation in the early church that Paul/John addressed would have been worse than most churches today. They did not have the benefit of gotquestions.org, or any internet forum, or even the complete New Testament to guide their discernment. They had a simple test, which was what a person says about Christ reflects what is in their heart (Luke 6:45). John and Paul did not describe any further tests than theses.

Lee is sometimes accused of being a gnostic, so these tests applied to gnosticism in the early church should work for the local churches as well!

Rather, ZNP and others are trying their best to explain away these verses and why these verses are inadequate. To do so, they have had to venture from Hebrews to Proverbs (and these are very light on the subject of spiritual discernment), which do not provide a complete or adequate answer.

I agree with Zeek's statement about "What else is there?". If we cannot use the confession of the Lord Jesus as absolute proof of the anointing then there are not many more tests we can use and stay within the bible. Medieval Europe or even the Reformation was rife with unscriptural tests and this led to the death of many wrongly accused witches and heretics.

I suggest that churches rich in good works which do not call upon the Lord Jesus invite all sorts of spiritual things in their midst. For one, the act of calling the Lord's name might keep evil away as they cannot tolerate it. For two, it might show everyone the genuineness of everyone's heart. It is well known that Catholic liturgies for example are mostly filled with unbelievers, possibly even the Priests, whom evangelicals would love to evangelize and give them the "born again experience". An example of this is Mother Teresa. She did many good works but it is well known that she did not believe the Lord Jesus to be the only way to Heaven. Did she call upon the Lord Jesus or Hare Krishna? Would she have passed the spiritual tests of John and Paul? While people were dying, she was placing mystical spells upon their heads to grant them a ticket to heaven without them having to confess anything about Jesus.
Evangelical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2018, 08:51 AM   #8
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,114
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post

I agree with Zeek's statement about "What else is there?". If we cannot use the confession of the Lord Jesus as absolute proof of the anointing then there are not many more tests we can use and stay within the bible. Medieval Europe or even the Reformation was rife with unscriptural tests and this led to the death of many wrongly accused witches and heretics.
You are misappropriating what I said. When I asked "What else is there?" I was referring to the individual's subjective experience. To turn that around and make it an "absolute proof" by which judge other's "anointing" subverts my meaning. Based on Jesus' dictum "judge not lest ye be judged", I submit that all judgments of our fellow human beings should be provisional not final in recognition of our own fallibility.

What you're asserting about calling on the name of the Lord is, based on my experience in the Local Church ill advised. People used the name of the Lord for all kinds of reasons and motives, some of them pure and others not. There's nothing magical about it. You have to make human judgments about intent and it's best to recognize that you may be wrong. "Discerning spirits" is at best an art not a science.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2018, 10:33 AM   #9
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,234
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
"Discerning spirits" is at best an art not a science.
I would say it's neither. It is a God-given ability to see and hear things that are spiritually realized, discerned and judged, and not readily apparent or visible to the human eye. I think this is what the apostle Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Of course "the things of the Spirit" probably indicate something more in the positive realm, however I believe the same principle would apply to discerning or judging "spirits that are not from God". To put a practical spin on this, I would point us to the natural world where there are some creatures that can see and hear in different wavelengths and spectrums than humans can. Of course my example is not totally analogous in that these creatures have innate abilities, whereas the Christians' abilities are bestowed upon them from God supernaturally through and by the Spirit of God.
-
__________________
Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Ephesians 3:21)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2018, 04:11 PM   #10
Evangelical
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,976
Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
You are misappropriating what I said. When I asked "What else is there?" I was referring to the individual's subjective experience. To turn that around and make it an "absolute proof" by which judge other's "anointing" subverts my meaning. Based on Jesus' dictum "judge not lest ye be judged", I submit that all judgments of our fellow human beings should be provisional not final in recognition of our own fallibility.

What you're asserting about calling on the name of the Lord is, based on my experience in the Local Church ill advised. People used the name of the Lord for all kinds of reasons and motives, some of them pure and others not. There's nothing magical about it. You have to make human judgments about intent and it's best to recognize that you may be wrong. "Discerning spirits" is at best an art not a science.
1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 seem absolute to me.

If we cannot test the spirits in an absolute and clear way, then we also cannot know if someone is saved or not according to believing and confessing Christ.
The two ideas are related.

Interestingly, Catholics do not believe in the sufficiency of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 neither do they believe we can know if we are saved or not.

I see this like passport control at an airport. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 is like a test to see who has a passport or visa and who does not. The officer does not care what kind of person you are as long as you have the correct passport and visa.
Evangelical is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:18 PM.


3.8.9