Negative Speaking

I have a struggle with this issue of calling people who spoke out the immoral behaviors and abuses of leadership as being negative. Just this morning, I read a post from a LC with a quote from Witness Lee.

"Positive listening will rescue us from negative listening. If we listen to God's word from morning to evening, we will not have an ear to listen to any negative speaking. Negative talk prevails in the church life because certain ones turn their ears from God to something else. These ones do not speak Christ, the word of God, grace, or the gospel. Instead they listen to negative things, and they work and move according to the negative things they hear. The result is the spreading of death. If we turn our ears from other things back to God Himself, there will not be any problems, and only life will be spreading, not death." (Life-study of Leviticus, Msg. 30)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a struggle with this issue of calling people who spoke out the immoral behaviors and abuses of leadership as being negative. Just this morning, I read a post from a LC with a quote from Witness Lee.

"Positive listening will rescue us from negative listening. If we listen to God's word from morning to evening, we will not have an ear to listen to any negative speaking. Negative talk prevails in the church life because certain ones turn their ears from God to something else. These ones do not speak Christ, the word of God, grace, or the gospel. Instead they listen to negative things, and they work and move according to the negative things they hear. The result is the spreading of death. If we turn our ears from other things back to God Himself, there will not be any problems, and only life will be spreading, not death." (Life-study of Leviticus, Msg. 30)

Hi Unregistered,

This teaching is one of the ones that lets us know the local churches are an abusive church. This is literally in the books about spiritual abuse: "if you talk about a problem, then YOU are the problem, it's not the problem that's the problem."

It's the chef whose got his food stored in a dark, filthy back room. You walk back there and you flip the light switch to turn on the lights and you catch a glimpse of all the rats and roaches before they scatter......and rather than get horrified that he has rats and roaches, the chef instead gets mad at you for shining the light on the rats and roaches.

We can all see the issues with that scenario, and what's going on in the local churches in that regard is no less gross and disgusting.

Much of the epistles contain the apostles doing this very thing (talking about the problems) - calling out immoral behaviors and abuses of leadership, or in the church in general. Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:19-20 speaks to this directly: "You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face." Do Lee or the co-workers want to call the apostle Paul "negative" for speaking about the abusive behavior of the false apostles toward the Corinthians? I don't think so.

Much of what Jesus said to the religious hypocrites was also doing this very thing (talking about problems) - calling out abuses of leadership. Condemning the Pharisees for tying up burdens on men's shoulders, etc.

Abusive churches don't like it when their members follow this pattern of Paul and Jesus.

I mean, read Lee's words: "if we turn our ears from other things....there will not be any problems..."

For reals? You mean, if you stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalala" then what your parents are saying to you doesn't really exist? This is child's thinking. All that it means is you are ignoring the problem. Healthy churches want to know the problems so they can address them because it matters to them that people don't get hurt, harmed, and damaged. Abusive churches blame the people who bring up the problems, because it matters to them that they constantly have a shiny, polished, whitewashed, pure, spotless image to anyone wasting their time looking at them. It's the ultimate narcissism.

This "death" or "death element" that the co-workers love to threaten the saints about also perfectly fits the characteristic of an abusive church. It's threats, fear, intimidation, condemnation. Is this the atmosphere intended within the church Jesus bought? Not at all. And they are using "death" in an unscriptural way. The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms that "the wages of sin is death". Death is our wages for our sin. Who paid us these wages?

God!

God is the one who gave us the death penalty for our sins. He is so holy, so righteous, so morally perfect, that any sins condemns us to the death penalty. Yes, as the Bible says, Satan has the power of death because he can deceive people and thus keep them from accepting everlasting life as a free gift from God, but death doesn't come from Satan. It's our wages, what we earned, from God. Death is not something you can "spread" like is threatened in the excerpt you quoted. It's the perfect intangible, undefined threat......classic for abusive churches.

Yes, yes, "life and death are in the power of the tongue" says Proverbs. Yes, we need to watch what we say because it has an effect on people. But neither of those concepts are talking about squashing people who speak up about sins, abuses, immorality, or harm in what is supposed to be a safe place.

Your struggle in this area shows you are seeing with clear eyes and are using your God-given mind to discern.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a struggle with this issue of calling people who spoke out the immoral behaviors and abuses of leadership as being negative. Just this morning, I read a post from a LC with a quote from Witness Lee.

"Positive listening will rescue us from negative listening. If we listen to God's word from morning to evening, we will not have an ear to listen to any negative speaking. Negative talk prevails in the church life because certain ones turn their ears from God to something else. These ones do not speak Christ, the word of God, grace, or the gospel. Instead they listen to negative things, and they work and move according to the negative things they hear. The result is the spreading of death. If we turn our ears from other things back to God Himself, there will not be any problems, and only life will be spreading, not death." (Life-study of Leviticus, Msg. 30)

The Life Study of Leviticus was given during the worst scandal of WL in the USA. His son was caught (again) molesting the office help at LSM.

The church in Anaheim, then SoCal, and soon many other LC's, bacame naturally chaotic. Many God-fearing believers were pretty upset about the perp and the victim. Instead of dealing with the sins honestly, biblicly, and righteously, WL covered it up. He protected himself, his family, and his family business. Then he lied about those who DID attempt to properly address the sin situation. Hence, more chaos.

So what did WL teach? That we should all dive into his own books amd keep our mouths shut. Like the military policy of "don't ask, don't tell." And don't be negative, don't spread death, don't be a gossip, yada yada.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Life Study of Leviticus was given during the worst scandal of WL in the USA. His son was caught (again) molesting the office help at LSM.

The church in Anaheim, then SoCal, and soon many other LC's, bacame naturally chaotic. Many God-fearing believers were pretty upset about the perp and the victim. Instead of dealing with the sins honestly, biblicly, and righteously, WL covered it up. He protected himself, his family, and his family business. Then he lied about those who DID attempt to properly address the sin situation. Hence, more chaos.

So what did WL teach? That we should all dive into his own books amd keep our mouths shut. Like the military policy of "don't ask, don't tell." And don't be negative, don't spread death, don't be a gossip, yada yada.

Here's the big one...DON'T TELL THE TRUTH!!!

Nell

[Trapped]

This "don't spread death", by the way, is directly from Lee's just plain bad interpretation of the two trees in the garden of Eden, geared off of "we don't care about right and wrong."

Lee said "right and wrong are on the wrong tree" and he called that tree "the tree of death". The problem is, it isn't the tree of death. It's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It sounds catchy to call it the tree of death, because the other one was the tree of life, but that's simply not what the verses say, at all. If it was the tree of death, then God would have called it what it is, like the honorable God He is. But Lee added to scripture, as he was wont to do, and he taught that death came FROM the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when the verses plainly show that death came because God separated them from their access to the tree of life (the thing that would allow them to live forever) and drove them out of the garden.

So since the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is NOT the tree of death or the source of death, we can unhook "death" from "good and evil, right and wrong", and voila! The co-workers' fearmongering of death against anyone who speaks up about "right and wrong" becomes visible for what it is: a totally empty windbag full of a whole lot of stinking hot air.

And what we end up with is a situation where a bunch of "blended brothers", in a position of what they think is power, are abusing the Word of God (and abusing God's children in the process) to cover darkness.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This "don't spread death", by the way, is directly from Lee's just plain bad interpretation of the two trees in the garden of Eden, geared off of "we don't care about right and wrong."

Lee said "right and wrong are on the wrong tree" and he called that tree "the tree of death". The problem is, it isn't the tree of death. It's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It sounds catchy to call it the tree of death, because the other one was the tree of life, but that's simply not what the verses say, at all. If it was the tree of death, then God would have called it what it is, like the honorable God He is. But Lee added to scripture, as he was wont to do, and he taught that death came FROM the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when the verses plainly show that death came because God separated them from their access to the tree of life (the thing that would allow them to live forever) and drove them out of the garden.

So since the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is NOT the tree of death or the source of death, we can unhook "death" from "good and evil, right and wrong", and voila! The co-workers' fearmongering of death against anyone who speaks up about "right and wrong" becomes visible for what it is: a totally empty windbag full of a whole lot of stinking hot air.

And what we end up with is a situation where a bunch of "blended brothers", in a position of what they think is power, are abusing the Word of God (and abusing God's children in the process) to cover darkness.

That, Trapped, is actually the best defining of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil I've heard on here from you - very concise! God did NOT call it the "tree of death." Yet for our original parents, eating of it did mean death.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That, Trapped, is actually the best defining of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil I've heard on here from you - very concise! God did NOT call it the "tree of death." Yet for our original parents, eating of it did mean death.

Thanks, StG.

It did mean death, yes, but because it was forbidden, not because of what it inherently was. It was described at least twice as being "good for food". The fruit itself (or its nature, its element, its essence) is not the issue. I would still say, "Yet for our original parents, disobeying God did mean death."

[Curious]

I want to chip in here and suggest a very excellent resource on the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's a book titled 'There Were Two Trees In the Garden' by Rick Joyner.

I know he's a bit controversial and and out on the loopy end for some, in other of his books, but this book is not loopy at all. I suggest to forget the author and just take the book on its own. Personally, I have read it about 5 times and each time I learned much more, than the time before. Its pretty dense but to me makes so much sense. Just my suggestion to those curious.

It certainly also lays the groundwork to easily expose those such as WL or anyone using what seems good to trap people into a system that served himself at their expense (evil).

I'm fact, thinking about it, WL did care an awful lot for good and evil. At least to present the LC as good not evil. That is, he certainly understood the need to use a 'good' facade to attract newcomers, as if people would think the LC to be bad they wouldn't join. So he used the impression of good to cover over doing evil. And that's the context the above mentioned book explains.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Curious

I want to chip in here and suggest a very excellent resource on the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's a book titled 'There Were Two Trees In the Garden' by Rick Joyner.

I know he's a bit controversial and and out on the loopy end for some, in other of his books, but this book is not loopy at all. I suggest to forget the author and just take the book on its own. Personally, I have read it about 5 times and each time I learned much more, than the time before. Its pretty dense but to me makes so much sense. Just my suggestion to those curious.

It certainly also lays the groundwork to easily expose those such as WL or anyone using what seems good to trap people into a system that served himself at their expense (evil).

I have an ever-growing backlog of books to purchase when finances are less tight, so I wouldn't be able to buy this book any time soon, but I took a look on Amazon in hopes there would be a "look inside" feature for it. There was.

While the rest of the book may be more accurate (and it does have a good review rating), I choked on the very first page of chapter 1 where he says "...the Lord did not implement this restriction just to test Adam and Eve; He prohibited the eating of its fruit because He knew it was poison."

I'm sorry, but the verses are simply not there to back this conclusion up. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was literally described as being "good for food". There is just no way to say that poison can be good for food. It was described as "making you like God." "Poison" and "makes you like God" simply don't mesh.

And if you take that the tree itself was poisonous, then you are immediately on your way down the road to "not only is evil poison, but knowledge is poison and good is poison too", and we are forest-deep into a spiritually abusive teaching.

Ah, I just read a little more, and it's right there on the very next page: "the knowledge of good and evil kills us....."

Nope. It's the punishment for disobeying God by being restricted from having access to the tree of life that killed us. (If you are prevented from eating the tree that makes you live forever you.......die.) The bible doesn't say that "sin is death" but that "the WAGES (punishment) of sin is death."

Who punished us with death for our sins? God did. Death was punishment; it wasn't from the TOTKOGAE itself.

He then says, "It is significant that the Tree of Knowledge is found in the center of the garden (see Genesis 3:3). Self-centeredness is the chief malady with which it afflicts us."

Okay.....well he used Genesis 3:3, which refers to the TOTKOGAE only. However, Genesis 2:9 speaks of BOTH trees, and the tree of life is also described as being in the center of the garden, so his negative attribution of the central placement as pertains to the TOTKOGAE also means the tree of life has to do with self-centeredness too, which doesn't make any sense.

Then two pages later he says:

"The fruit of these two tree is to forever be separate and distinct, as the Lord Jesus also testified.

For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit; nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its fruit. Luke 6:43-44."

The verse he uses actually supports the conclusion that the TOTKOGAE was not a bad tree. It was described as being good for food. This means the fruit was good for food. It had good fruit. And Luke tells us straight out that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The TOTKOGAE cannot, Biblically, be a bad tree. Or poisonous. Or death.

I'm not saying there isn't good stuff in his book. In the next page or two he starts speaking of Jesus and it seems good, but that's where the preview cuts off for me .

For better or for worse, I get particular with the two trees teaching because getting it a half inch wrong up front leads so incredibly far off just a mile or two down the road. I don't mean to take away from your enjoyment of the book or your recommendation! The rest of the book may be just wonderful! I've just seen where the misinterpretation of this particular story leads, and the way it is used in the LC, and so I'm not super loosy-goosy about this one. Happy to get into it if someone disagrees, but this is just what I see.

Originally Posted by Curious

I'm fact, thinking about it, WL did care an awful lot for good and evil. At least to present the LC as good not evil. That is, he certainly understood the need to use a 'good' facade to attract newcomers, as if people would think the LC to be bad they wouldn't join. So he used the impression of good to cover over doing evil. And that's the context the above mentioned book explains.

Yeah, and he also cared for good and evil when he thought others were perpetrating his version of "evil" upon him!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I have an ever-growing backlog of books to purchase when finances are less tight, so I wouldn't be able to buy this book any time soon, but I took a look on Amazon in hopes there would be a "look inside" feature for it. There was.

Here is free PDF you can download.

[Curious]

I’m so glad Trapped brought this up. Having recommended this book, I feel responsible to engage.

My conclusion, based on this thread and my book, (which I read before becoming aware of WL’s teachings, so I considered it in a state of ignorance of WL or any other teaching on this subject), is as follows:

First, I agree completely with Trapped. God would not create a bad tree. In fact, as Nell points out, God cares deeply abpout good and evil. Our whole experience of this life is to learn to discern good and evil from the starting point of truth. As God does and He does not allow evil into heaven, His dwelling place. Why trust God, even beyond our own understanding, as He requires? Because He alone is GOOD. Perfect in holiness. Not a stain of corruption in Him. And out of that Goodness, He loves us. The whole lesson of this life is to learn this lesson. Satan is evil….the fool angels that followed him (it) in rebellion against God did not perceive this. Yet we learn to perceive evil as we grow in faith and discernment and there is a scripture that declares we are to learn this ability to discern good and evil…..i cant find it right now but in the NT. I daresay Satan knew that it was Gods intention to teach them good from evil himself, so why satan sought to get in there quickly.

So Rick Joyner, when he sought to put his observations back into a doctrinal framework, has made a mistake. Trapped has spotted it straight away, showing the astuteness he (she?) has gained from his experiences in the LC. Yes RJ is wrong, right there at the start of his book!! What a shame.
The fall happened through disobedience is the key, not the fruit itself. No way around that. Missed by RJ but understood by posters on this forum.

Ok. Next point. The tree at the center of the garden alongside the tree of life. Now I understand this point as it depends on what is at the center of a person’s life. If it is the tree of life as representing Jesus, he at the center of our life, then it is ideal. The tree of life at the center of our heart. Then He is the one to teach us about good and evil. That’s Gods intention in having us live this mortal life under the earthly dominion of Satan and his (it’s) demons etc. Even Adam and Eve were co-existing on this earth with Satan before the fall. No matter what happened I believe its been Gods intention to teach us good from evil. RJ overstepped in his drawing back his good observations to a doctrinal base.

So now, having acknowledged all that, I’m going to explain why I liked the book and summarize what I got from it that I think IS helpful. What RJ has perceived correctly IMOO (In my opinion only) is how the twisted interpretation of good and evil works in the heart of fallen man. This is the strength of the book. This is how our gravitating to what we perceive to be good from a self-centered and unrepented perspective actually creates evil.
Say a husband says openly: “I’m a good husband. I don’t beat my wife, I don’t drink, I don’t stay away from home with my buddies or fraternize with other women”. Yet he talks over the top of her, makes important decisions without consulting her, allows his mother to gossip about her and slander her and never acknowledges it, lies to her about trivial things in a habitual way. But he’s not the very worst of men so he will never address these other issues. Is that ok? It’s the using of what’s good to excuse or deny, and persist in, things that are actually bad and doing harm. That is they key message.

....It’s coming up with a whole bunch of ideas that seem to transform Christian experience from something dead to something alive, with teachings on economy, unity of believers, new high-peak truths, then preaching it to where the numbers of people benefitting from this new and living experience of God, reach into the thousands and beyond. Then feeling so successful and certain of Gods great pleasure in you, the center and conveyor of this great discovery, that you get sloppy about things going on around you, and you start indulging your own vices. The good you seem to have done somehow deceives you away from the basics. You buy into your own hype!! This is the topic RJ exposes and explains so well. (IMOO).

Its how the pharisee looks down on the tax collector, he’s measuring good and evil, and counting himself a pass and the tax collector a fail.

The 10 commandments expose this. When we have a self-centered understanding of good and evil, then what satisfies me and makes me feel good is my good and what I don’t enjoy is my evil. To live to feed the self will cause a person to lust after his neighbour’s wife. (‘she’s much nicer and kinder than my grouchy and stubborn wife, [justification], I’ve suffered long enough, I deserve better’!) It will be the reason why a person lies, is jealous of others, may harm or kill, preserving and believing in oneself, rather than looking at the harm done to others by selfish actions, is the key. And the justifying is where the deception has tricked and trapped us. Having God at the center of our (garden) is to backtrack on this internal self-righteousness and judging right and wrong from the point of view of self.

The taxi driver who waits for an hour in a queue to get his next passenger at a busy airport, then lands a passenger who only needs a 10 minute ride, gets angry with his passenger. He feels short changed by circumstances. He was hoping for a long trip to justify the long waste of time he invested. From his point of view that’s a bad deal. But its not the passenger’s fault, they had no other way to get to their destination. We all have our story but it doesn’t justify sin. Sin exposes our sense of good and evil being centered in self and not in God/truth.

That’s the big overriding lesson. I welcome challenge to this as I’ve learned something important already from Trapped’s response, and I’m so happy about it! also, the guys who write and publish can miss things, and get things wrong that another person without such a reputation may see clear as day!! we don't have to defer to anyone but Jesus himself!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Curious

In fact, thinking about it, WL did care an awful lot for good and evil. At least to present the LC as good not evil. That is, he certainly understood the need to use a 'good' facade to attract newcomers, as if people would think the LC to be bad they wouldn't join. So he used the impression of good to cover over doing evil. And that's the context the above mentioned book explains.

In fact, thinking more about it, WL actually redefined for the LC movement what is good and what is evil.

His definitions superseded those in the scripture. His definitions of good and evil replaced those in the Bible. The LC's today operate according to WL's new definitions for what is good and what is evil.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In fact, thinking more about it, WL actually redefined for the LC movement what is good and what is evil.

His definitions superseded those in the scripture. His definitions of good and evil replaced those in the Bible. The LC's today operate according to WL's new definitions for what is good and what is evil.

That reads to me as a really profound and true insight. Yes, his own self-serving definition, fed to his followers as truth. Illustrating that us humans cannot seperate from the concept of good and evil. Weather twisted or true, it is an unavoidable fact of our existence that it sits at the core of us, including any fool that thinks they can develop a theology that dismisses it!

I am seeing the mistake of Rick Joyner in this light. Its like he found a good puzzle piece, with the main content of his book, but he put his puzzle piece in completely the wrong place in the puzzle! (the theological position he gave it). And the simple reason why? He's not been part of a group that abused this Genesis account in the way WL did. So he hasn't seen that wisdom, or perceived how it can be an opening for evil to be done.

That's where the gift of particular wisdom comes from our own experiences and lessons learned, then these then can serve and protect the whole body of Christ from error. Just me sharing my own reflections on this issue. (IMOO)..... 🐄

[Curious]

I can't help it, I so badly want to share this. The problem of persons rising up in the church and criticising all others, narrowing their followers to listen only to themselves, then childishly hating on the others and stating one day they will bow the knee to jesus, when really they mean bow the knee to themselves..... well its all here in this short youtube video.

Another person, another time, a different set of peculiars, but same exact intention, method and goal.


https://youtu.be/VqYxDIgBp6Y

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Curious

I can't help it, I so badly want to share this. The problem of persons rising up in the church and criticising all others, narrowing their followers to listen only to themselves, then childishly hating on the others and stating one day they will bow the knee to jesus, when really they mean bow the knee to themselves.....

Often I hear warnings about wolves creeping into the church in sheep's clothing, but this phenomena of "rising up in the church" is far more subtle and dangerous. Apostle Paul actually warned us explicitly about this in Acts 20.30. The Lord used this verse to expose the Recovery system of error to me.

The note in the Recovery Version here totally misses the Apostle's warning. It's not about luring the sheep away to form another flock, but to draw away the flock from God Himself, who purchased us with His own blood, to himself.

And what are these "perverted teachings?" They are clever twistings and cunning distortions, like criticizing all others, exalting your own ministry, preventing other ministries in the church, etc. Teaching about Jesus, yet demanding absolute loyalty. Using the Bible to peddle your own ministry, corrupting others' conscience, suing and slandering those who would hold you accountable. Paul called this "walking in craftiness," hiding all the shameful things, in order to maintain some false but pristine image to delude your faithful followers.

[Raptor]

Do you think this is a clever twisting in this video? Apparently, most of the message seems to be good, on how to read the Bible by going to the Lord, praying and receiving light, revelation and vision. What do you think about this part of the video?

But right at the end WL talks about how Noah, Abraham and Moses were each raised up to accomplish God´s move in the age. Then he talks about how Peter and Paul were the same, and how now we need to pay attention to revelation and the move of God in this age. Is this a hidden suggestion that he was then the minister of the age?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwmJDX4Rj-I

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Do you think this is a clever twisting in this video? Apparently, most of the message seems to be good, on how to read the Bible by going to the Lord, praying and receiving light, revelation and vision. What do you think about this part of the video?

But right at the end WL talks about how Noah, Abraham and Moses were each raised up to accomplish God´s move in the age. Then he talks about how Peter and Paul were the same, and how now we need to pay attention to revelation and the move of God in this age. Is this a hidden suggestion that he was then the minister of the age?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwmJDX4Rj-I

Yes I do think this talk from WL is set up to let the viewer come to their own conclusion that WL is indeed the man for the end times.

What I wonder is, are there any LCers who have been through law school? WL and Gene Kim make multiple unsubstantiated claims. WL has it, as demonstrated by Raptor's sample, that the rest of Christianity has a sheet of paper separating them from being able to see God face to face. WL does not have this sheet of paper in front of his face. How does he know this? He knows that every single Christian in the whole world has this sheet of paper permanently in front of his face! How ridiculous! If the sheet of paper could be removed from his eyes then surely God is capable of removing it from someone else's!

Backtracking to the sample I attached to my last post, Gene Kim likewise presents alot of false information about these other Christian speakers who have Internet channels. To the point where he is flat out wrong about John Macarthur, as pointed out by the host of the video. Anyone legally trained would want to clarify the claims, and would discover the lies and the unsoundness would be pretty obvious. Even his childish use of the surname 'slick' and careless accusation 'these guys are jerks', not even an intelligent critique. So I wonder if, outside of lawyers employed by LRM headquarters, if legally trained minds are a missing people group from LC congregations?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Curious

What I wonder is, are there any LCers who have been through law school?

Yes, there are lawyers in the LC.

I can think of one brother who either serves at, works for, or is at a minimum in cahoots with DCP, who is a lawyer.

[Curious]

I've just had an epiphany of sorts on this subject. To replace God's standard of good and evil, with instead, a standard that teaches getting a 'sense' of 'life' or 'death', is actual direct rebellion and throwing off of God's objective standard. This standard, the 10 commandments for a clear example, was delivered directly by Him, to expose us all as sinners, as none of us can attain it WL replaced that with a standard that is subject to corruption with no recourse to truth as God determines, or to repentance.

To be purely subjective may give liberty to the Holy Spirit, but also does not protect against the drivers and self deception of the carnal nature. In fact the very thing RJ warns against in his book.

WL, as ohio rightly points out, then filled the void with his own ultimate an non-biblical based standard of good and evil:

For some examples
Christianity, evil, LC, good
Personal opinion - evil. WL's opinion, good
Individuality - evil. Conformity, good.

And on and on it goes. And it will create conflict between people because it is subjective to each person's whims and desires, which will inevitably clash! They are no solution, each person a law unto themselves and their own subjective experience. God have mercy.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Curious

I've just had an epiphany of sorts on this subject. To replace God's standard of good and evil, with instead, a standard that teaches getting a 'sense' of 'life' or 'death', is actual direct rebellion and throwing off of God's objective standard. This standard, the 10 commandments for a clear example, was delivered directly by Him, to expose us all as sinners, as none of us can attain it WL replaced that with a standard that is subject to corruption with no recourse to truth as God determines, or to repentance.

To be purely subjective may give liberty to the Holy Spirit, but also does not protect against the drivers and self deception of the carnal nature. In fact the very thing RJ warns against in his book.

WL, as ohio rightly points out, then filled the void with his own ultimate an non-biblical based standard of good and evil:

For some examples
Christianity, evil, LC, good
Personal opinion - evil. WL's opinion, good
Individuality - evil. Conformity, good.

And on and on it goes. And it will create conflict between people because it is subjective to each person's whims and desires, which will inevitably clash! They are no solution, each person a law unto themselves and their own subjective experience. God have mercy.

Yeah, and get this quote from Watchman Nee in "The Two Principles of Living":

Christianity does not have an outward good and an outward evil. It does not have a definite standard in place. I may choose something good and reject something evil today, but this is not Christianity. It is the Old Testament, the law, worldly religions, human morality, and human ethics, but it is not Christianity.

What is Christianity? Christianity is life. Christianity is not a matter of asking whether something is right or wrong. Christianity is a matter of checking with the life inside us whenever we do something. What does the new life which God has given us tell us inwardly about this matter? It is very strange that many people have only seen an outward standard, the standard of good and evil. But God has not given us an outward standard. Christianity is not a new set of Ten Commandments. In Christianity we have not been brought to a new Sinai, nor has God given us a new set of rules and regulations with "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not." Christianity does not require that we ask whether something is right or wrong, good or evil. On the contrary, whenever we do anything, there is a life within us which rises up to speak with us. When we feel right inwardly, when we feel the life inside of us moving, when we are strong within and sense the anointing, we know that we have life. Many times something is right and good in the eyes of man, but strangely the inner life has no response and grows cold and retreats.

Please remember, God's Word tells us that our Christian living is based on an inner life, not an outward standard of right and wrong. Many worldly people, who are not saved, live according to the best standard of living they can attain: the principle of right and wrong. If you or I also live by the principle of right or wrong, we are the same as worldly people. Christians are different from non-Christians because we do not live by an outward standard or law. Our subject is not human morality or concepts. We do not determine whether something is right or wrong by subjecting it to human criticism or opinion. Today we have only one question: What does our inner life say? If the life is strong and active within us, we can do this; if the life is cold and retreating within us, we should not. Our principle for living is inward instead of outward. This is the only real principle of living; the others are false. People may say that many things are right to do, and I may feel that to do them is right, but what does the sense of the inner life tell us? The inner life does not agree. If we were to do them, we would not be rewarded, and if we were not to do them, there should be no shame, because they are outside of us. We can only see what is really right when the Spirit of God operates within us. If we feel that there is life inwardly, then that matter is right. If we do not feel the inward life, then the matter is wrong. Right and wrong are not decided by an outward standard but by the inner life.

This kind of stuff makes me want to tear my hair out for how utterly off it is.

There is no outward standard in place? The 10 commandments are God's law, we have a conscience, right and wrong is written on our hearts. This is literally an outward standard, determined by God.

The Bible never speaks of "what the life inside tells us". It just doesn't. Nee and Lee very bizarrely separated the person from the life. No one in their right mind would say of their spouse, "let me check with my wife's life on that one and I'll get back to you."

Christianity is not a new set of 10 commandments? Of course it's not - the old set never went away!

Christians don't live by an outward standard and our subject is not human morality or law? Yeah....it's GOD'S morality and law. The ultimate standard outside of us that we are all responsible to!

Anyone turning inward to get their principles of living is a deceived person indeed.

If we feel there is life inwardly, then that matter is right????!!!!!! Excuse me? In other words, "if I feel good, then what I do is okay." Nee just created a subjective paradigm for morality. Each person is a law unto themselves, just like you said Curious!

Hmmm.....now, what kind of pure person would want to set up a system where they are not accountable to a standard outside of themselves, eh?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Yes, there are lawyers in the LC.

I can think of one brother who either serves at, works for, or is at a minimum in cahoots with DCP, who is a lawyer.

The original lawyer for Aff & Crit was a poster on this forum.

[Trapped]

Was also reading in 1 Corinthians 11 today and chuckled at verse 17 from Paul to the Corinthians:

"In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good." (NIV)

Do more harm than good?! Talk about negative speaking! If the apostle Paul were in the local church today, he would get labeled as negative, poisonous, and quickly quarantined without due process at the next ITERO!!

It's completely nonsensical for any given group to not be able to take "negative speaking". It's a prime setup for the bad to stay bad and get worse, and the good to inexorably diminish over time. And what a shock - that's exactly what has happened.....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

It's completely nonsensical for any given group to not be able to take "negative speaking". It's a prime setup for the bad to stay bad and get worse, and the good to inexorably diminish over time. And what a shock - that's exactly what has happened.....

WL was not the first to try to silence his sheeple.

Pope Francis says gossip is a "tool of the devil to divide the church, and is a plague worse than Covid."

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Do you think this is a clever twisting in this video? Apparently, most of the message seems to be good, on how to read the Bible by going to the Lord, praying and receiving light, revelation and vision. What do you think about this part of the video?

But right at the end WL talks about how Noah, Abraham and Moses were each raised up to accomplish God´s move in the age. Then he talks about how Peter and Paul were the same, and how now we need to pay attention to revelation and the move of God in this age. Is this a hidden suggestion that he was then the minister of the age?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwmJDX4Rj-I

I only had a short time while getting ready for bed to listen to the last ~4-5 minutes of this clip, but the message is clearly that the OT and NT special people saw and were given a revelation of what God was doing, and that now we are at the end of the NT age and "millions and millions of Christians have the Bible but have no revelation" and "they don't know what God is doing today", BUUUUUUT...........WE DO!! We have the revelation! We know!

Yeah, the implication is that "we" know because Lee, the fulfillment of Noah/Abe/Moses/Peter/Paul, gave us the revelation from God.

It's been a while since I've listened to Lee rather than to the current co-workers. Although I grew up listening to him, now, being away from the LC for a while, it's very hard for me to listen to him anymore. I think some of his draw was simply the way he spoke - slightly hushed and husky, the melodic waver, the "aura", and the myriad of multi-syllabic words said with an accent that, kinda sometimes didn't really mean much or add anything to the message. It's so unique....it's like this kind, hushed, fatherly, grandfatherly, sweet......denigration and tossing aside of most of the Body of Christ.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Yeah, and get this quote from Watchman Nee in "The Two Principles of Living":

Christianity does not have an outward good and an outward evil. It does not have a definite standard in place. I may choose something good and reject something evil today, but this is not Christianity. It is the Old Testament, the law, worldly religions, human morality, and human ethics, but it is not Christianity.

What is Christianity? Christianity is life. Christianity is not a matter of asking whether something is right or wrong. Christianity is a matter of checking with the life inside us whenever we do something. What does the new life which God has given us tell us inwardly about this matter? It is very strange that many people have only seen an outward standard, the standard of good and evil. But God has not given us an outward standard. Christianity is not a new set of Ten Commandments. In Christianity we have not been brought to a new Sinai, nor has God given us a new set of rules and regulations with "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not." Christianity does not require that we ask whether something is right or wrong, good or evil. On the contrary, whenever we do anything, there is a life within us which rises up to speak with us. When we feel right inwardly, when we feel the life inside of us moving, when we are strong within and sense the anointing, we know that we have life. Many times something is right and good in the eyes of man, but strangely the inner life has no response and grows cold and retreats.

Please remember, God's Word tells us that our Christian living is based on an inner life, not an outward standard of right and wrong. Many worldly people, who are not saved, live according to the best standard of living they can attain: the principle of right and wrong. If you or I also live by the principle of right or wrong, we are the same as worldly people. Christians are different from non-Christians because we do not live by an outward standard or law. Our subject is not human morality or concepts. We do not determine whether something is right or wrong by subjecting it to human criticism or opinion. Today we have only one question: What does our inner life say? If the life is strong and active within us, we can do this; if the life is cold and retreating within us, we should not. Our principle for living is inward instead of outward. This is the only real principle of living; the others are false. People may say that many things are right to do, and I may feel that to do them is right, but what does the sense of the inner life tell us? The inner life does not agree. If we were to do them, we would not be rewarded, and if we were not to do them, there should be no shame, because they are outside of us. We can only see what is really right when the Spirit of God operates within us. If we feel that there is life inwardly, then that matter is right. If we do not feel the inward life, then the matter is wrong. Right and wrong are not decided by an outward standard but by the inner life.


I was truly shocked to read this. I think that the reputation of Watchman Nee in the wider Christian community would be very negatively affected if teachings like this, penned by his hand, were widely known.

He is known and esteemed for books like 'the normal Christian life', 'The Release of the Spirit' and 'Sit Walk Stand' (or title similar). The wider Christian world would be very puzzled and disillusioned if they knew of this sort of aspect or development in Watchman Nee's theology. So well off the track, and sadly, an amazingly apt illustration of what I was saying.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a struggle with this issue of calling people who spoke out the immoral behaviors and abuses of leadership as being negative. Just this morning, I read a post from a LC with a quote from Witness Lee.

"Positive listening will rescue us from negative listening. If we listen to God's word from morning to evening, we will not have an ear to listen to any negative speaking. Negative talk prevails in the church life because certain ones turn their ears from God to something else. These ones do not speak Christ, the word of God, grace, or the gospel. Instead they listen to negative things, and they work and move according to the negative things they hear. The result is the spreading of death. If we turn our ears from other things back to God Himself, there will not be any problems, and only life will be spreading, not death." (Life-study of Leviticus, Msg. 30)

“From Watchman Nee’s time until today, for seventy-two years, our practice has never come up to the standard of our vision that we have received of the Lord.” (Living a Life According to High Peak Revelation, www.MinistryBooks.org)

High Peak Revelation period 1991-1997

Watchman Nee period
1922-1952

“Brother Nee had stressed two things: Christ as life to produce the church and the church as the Body of Christ to express Christ. But, sorry to say; even among Brother Nee’s co-workers, who were my contemporaries, very few fully entered into the realization of these two matters. Not to mention the matter of the Body of Christ, they did not even see the matter of Christ as life to us.”


Witness Lee period
1962-1997

“From the time that I began my ministry until today, I have put out many books concerning the vision that we have seen. Through all the years, in mainland. China, in Taiwan, in Southeast Asia, and in the West today, in our practice we have never come up to the standard of what we have seen”
“Since we have seen such a high peak of the divine revelation, we need to put into practice what we have seen. “The goal of our practice should be to live the life of a God-man. This is the goal we should reach.”

"Our practice will have a success, and that success will be a new revival—the highest revival and probably the last revival before the Lord’s coming back".

"This should be and this must be our church practice from today onward. If not, we are practicing something in vain.


Witness Lee 1994 “But when the Lord put me in quietness, I examined myself according to this light, and found out that I have not really entered into it that much [the God-Man living]. What I have seen is very thorough, and what I have preached may also be considered quite complete, but it is really questionable how much of the reality of Christ as life I have in me.” This spoken 3 years before his passing. (Witness. Lee, 1994 message, Taipei)

Such a revival has not been realized by those charged to practice the God-Man living; and neither has the past been cleared by God-Man living in the leadership in taking reconciling measures in the Body - which in itself would bring revival before high peak teachings ABOUT God-Man living should be expected to do so.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have a struggle with this issue of calling people who spoke out about the immoral behaviors and abuses of leadership as being negative. Just this morning, I read a post from a LC member with a quote from Witness Lee.

"Positive listening will rescue us from negative listening. If we listen to God's word from morning to evening, we will not have an ear to listen to any negative speaking. Negative talk prevails in the church life because certain ones turn their ears from God to something else. These ones do not speak Christ, the word of God, grace, or the gospel. Instead they listen to negative things, and they work and move according to the negative things they hear. The result is the spreading of death. If we turn our ears from other things back to God Himself, there will not be any problems, and only life will be spreading, not death." (Life-study of Leviticus, Msg. 30)

"Brotherly love is a priceless heritage of ours" - John Ingalls - Dec 2018

I want to dedicate the link below to our "unregistered" guest whose post is quoted above. He, or she, is representative of so many throughout the years who have struggled in their conscience with such teachings as this - and more. Former leaders had their experience, after having known the priceless heritage of brotherly love for many years in and among "the local churches".

http://www.leadersofthelordsrecovery...Stronghold.pdf