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Cal · 08-25-2016, 07:21 AM

I appreciate everyone's comments and hope the discussion is not over.

Let me summarize my thoughts and feelings because I would like to take this discussion even further.

In the LCM I was influenced to believe the Church's role on earth was simply to meet, grow and preach the Gospel. Our separation from the world was to the point that we were really invisible to the world. The world, if it noticed us, was to view us as a peculiar mystery that it completely discounted. We were not to be concerned with the world's issues, and that not only meant political issues, but even humanitarian issues such as natural disasters, hunger, and other needs of the local and global neighbors we were supposed to love.

The LCM would declare boldly that the Church is the expression of Christ. But we never really got around to totally understanding how it expressed Christ. If we expressed Christ so wonderfully, why did no one notice us and why did we have zero impact on the world around us? For me, I thought we were "shining" with the glory of God and that "shining" would somehow infuse the world around us and be attractive to them in some way. This never really happened.

I've come to be suspicious of the "shining" idea, not that there isn't some truth to it, but rather that I believe the real shining is seen in practical godly human behavior, particularly humble serving, that shows God's love for all people.

For the following reasons, more and more I'm questioning the LCM view (shared by other super-spiritual and reclusive Christians and groups) that the Church need have no impact on the world's condition:

Jesus was one man, but look at his impact. Look how he shook up the world he lived in. He was famous. People knew about him. He was the talk of the town. Seeking people flocked to him. He upset the religious order. He troubled the political order. He accomplished things neither could. He fed the hungry, healed the sick and comforted the downtrodden. He walked among the people of the world. He touched them, listened to them and loved them. He turned his world upside down. The world changed because of him. The Church continued this for a short time. Christianity ended the Roman Empire. That's impact!

Now, 2000 years later, we are the Church, but where is our impact? We are supposed to be Christ's body, which LCMers will even claim means we are Him. Jesus said we would do greater works than him (John 14:12). So that means we should be having even greater impact than he did.

So where is that impact? How is the world being turned upside down by us? Where are we having anything like the impact Jesus had?

The LCM and others like them have the attitude that we are supposed to hide out in our don't-get-us-dirty spirituality and think that we are "building the Church" and "expressing Christ" by being so “holy.” This is self-deceiving. If we were really expressing Christ then people would be reacting to us like they reacted to Jesus. They might love us or they might hate us, but they wouldn't be able to ignore us. Largely the Church gets ignored these days.

Our mission is not to fix the world system. Or is it? I'm not saying fix it through maneuverings of our flesh. I'm saying I'm not so sure God would not be pleased if we actually did express Christ and had the kind of impact on the world he did. He healed people for several reasons including because he loved people and because he wanted to show he was sent from God. How do we show we love people and are sent from God? By sitting around as a quirky group and "shining?" Or do we do it by demonstrating a supernatural love, care and ability to get things done at the grass roots level that the world, however they feel about our theology, cannot duplicate nor deny is something so unusual that it must be the real deal. How for that matter could the kingdom be truly brought in without some positive effect on the world, if only as a side effect?

How will this eventually work out? It might just be that God's plan is to change the world for the better via the Church, then when He's satisfied the Devil’s kingdom has been shamed completely, remove the Church from the world. What will be left will be those who, despite the undeniable testimony of God's glory through the Church, refuse to submit to him. The time of judgment will begin.

But I doubt that God is happy with the Church just muddling along, going to meetings, being "spiritual," and not having any impact in the world through godly service to whomever we are led to help. I doubt that more and more every day. I know the LCM mindset is so entrenched in some of us that we’ve never thought to question it. But after a couple of generations of waiting for the Lord to "build the Church" according to the LCM vision of reclusive spirituality and not seeing it happen, perhaps it’s time to consider that he has been waiting for something else.

08-25-2016, 07:21 AM	#82
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: What It's Really All About I appreciate everyone's comments and hope the discussion is not over. Let me summarize my thoughts and feelings because I would like to take this discussion even further. In the LCM I was influenced to believe the Church's role on earth was simply to meet, grow and preach the Gospel. Our separation from the world was to the point that we were really invisible to the world. The world, if it noticed us, was to view us as a peculiar mystery that it completely discounted. We were not to be concerned with the world's issues, and that not only meant political issues, but even humanitarian issues such as natural disasters, hunger, and other needs of the local and global neighbors we were supposed to love. The LCM would declare boldly that the Church is the expression of Christ. But we never really got around to totally understanding how it expressed Christ. If we expressed Christ so wonderfully, why did no one notice us and why did we have zero impact on the world around us? For me, I thought we were "shining" with the glory of God and that "shining" would somehow infuse the world around us and be attractive to them in some way. This never really happened. I've come to be suspicious of the "shining" idea, not that there isn't some truth to it, but rather that I believe the real shining is seen in practical godly human behavior, particularly humble serving, that shows God's love for all people. For the following reasons, more and more I'm questioning the LCM view (shared by other super-spiritual and reclusive Christians and groups) that the Church need have no impact on the world's condition: Jesus was one man, but look at his impact. Look how he shook up the world he lived in. He was famous. People knew about him. He was the talk of the town. Seeking people flocked to him. He upset the religious order. He troubled the political order. He accomplished things neither could. He fed the hungry, healed the sick and comforted the downtrodden. He walked among the people of the world. He touched them, listened to them and loved them. He turned his world upside down. The world changed because of him. The Church continued this for a short time. Christianity ended the Roman Empire. That's impact! Now, 2000 years later, we are the Church, but where is our impact? We are supposed to be Christ's body, which LCMers will even claim means we are Him. Jesus said we would do greater works than him (John 14:12). So that means we should be having even greater impact than he did. So where is that impact? How is the world being turned upside down by us? Where are we having anything like the impact Jesus had? The LCM and others like them have the attitude that we are supposed to hide out in our don't-get-us-dirty spirituality and think that we are "building the Church" and "expressing Christ" by being so “holy.” This is self-deceiving. If we were really expressing Christ then people would be reacting to us like they reacted to Jesus. They might love us or they might hate us, but they wouldn't be able to ignore us. Largely the Church gets ignored these days. Our mission is not to fix the world system. Or is it? I'm not saying fix it through maneuverings of our flesh. I'm saying I'm not so sure God would not be pleased if we actually did express Christ and had the kind of impact on the world he did. He healed people for several reasons including because he loved people and because he wanted to show he was sent from God. How do we show we love people and are sent from God? By sitting around as a quirky group and "shining?" Or do we do it by demonstrating a supernatural love, care and ability to get things done at the grass roots level that the world, however they feel about our theology, cannot duplicate nor deny is something so unusual that it must be the real deal. How for that matter could the kingdom be truly brought in without some positive effect on the world, if only as a side effect? How will this eventually work out? It might just be that God's plan is to change the world for the better via the Church, then when He's satisfied the Devil’s kingdom has been shamed completely, remove the Church from the world. What will be left will be those who, despite the undeniable testimony of God's glory through the Church, refuse to submit to him. The time of judgment will begin. But I doubt that God is happy with the Church just muddling along, going to meetings, being "spiritual," and not having any impact in the world through godly service to whomever we are led to help. I doubt that more and more every day. I know the LCM mindset is so entrenched in some of us that we’ve never thought to question it. But after a couple of generations of waiting for the Lord to "build the Church" according to the LCM vision of reclusive spirituality and not seeing it happen, perhaps it’s time to consider that he has been waiting for something else.