What It's Really All About

[Cal]

I appreciate everyone's comments and hope the discussion is not over.

Let me summarize my thoughts and feelings because I would like to take this discussion even further.

In the LCM I was influenced to believe the Church's role on earth was simply to meet, grow and preach the Gospel. Our separation from the world was to the point that we were really invisible to the world. The world, if it noticed us, was to view us as a peculiar mystery that it completely discounted. We were not to be concerned with the world's issues, and that not only meant political issues, but even humanitarian issues such as natural disasters, hunger, and other needs of the local and global neighbors we were supposed to love.

The LCM would declare boldly that the Church is the expression of Christ. But we never really got around to totally understanding how it expressed Christ. If we expressed Christ so wonderfully, why did no one notice us and why did we have zero impact on the world around us? For me, I thought we were "shining" with the glory of God and that "shining" would somehow infuse the world around us and be attractive to them in some way. This never really happened.

I've come to be suspicious of the "shining" idea, not that there isn't some truth to it, but rather that I believe the real shining is seen in practical godly human behavior, particularly humble serving, that shows God's love for all people.

For the following reasons, more and more I'm questioning the LCM view (shared by other super-spiritual and reclusive Christians and groups) that the Church need have no impact on the world's condition:

Jesus was one man, but look at his impact. Look how he shook up the world he lived in. He was famous. People knew about him. He was the talk of the town. Seeking people flocked to him. He upset the religious order. He troubled the political order. He accomplished things neither could. He fed the hungry, healed the sick and comforted the downtrodden. He walked among the people of the world. He touched them, listened to them and loved them. He turned his world upside down. The world changed because of him. The Church continued this for a short time. Christianity ended the Roman Empire. That's impact!

Now, 2000 years later, we are the Church, but where is our impact? We are supposed to be Christ's body, which LCMers will even claim means we are Him. Jesus said we would do greater works than him (John 14:12). So that means we should be having even greater impact than he did.

So where is that impact? How is the world being turned upside down by us? Where are we having anything like the impact Jesus had?

The LCM and others like them have the attitude that we are supposed to hide out in our don't-get-us-dirty spirituality and think that we are "building the Church" and "expressing Christ" by being so “holy.” This is self-deceiving. If we were really expressing Christ then people would be reacting to us like they reacted to Jesus. They might love us or they might hate us, but they wouldn't be able to ignore us. Largely the Church gets ignored these days.

Our mission is not to fix the world system. Or is it? I'm not saying fix it through maneuverings of our flesh. I'm saying I'm not so sure God would not be pleased if we actually did express Christ and had the kind of impact on the world he did. He healed people for several reasons including because he loved people and because he wanted to show he was sent from God. How do we show we love people and are sent from God? By sitting around as a quirky group and "shining?" Or do we do it by demonstrating a supernatural love, care and ability to get things done at the grass roots level that the world, however they feel about our theology, cannot duplicate nor deny is something so unusual that it must be the real deal. How for that matter could the kingdom be truly brought in without some positive effect on the world, if only as a side effect?

How will this eventually work out? It might just be that God's plan is to change the world for the better via the Church, then when He's satisfied the Devil’s kingdom has been shamed completely, remove the Church from the world. What will be left will be those who, despite the undeniable testimony of God's glory through the Church, refuse to submit to him. The time of judgment will begin.

But I doubt that God is happy with the Church just muddling along, going to meetings, being "spiritual," and not having any impact in the world through godly service to whomever we are led to help. I doubt that more and more every day. I know the LCM mindset is so entrenched in some of us that we’ve never thought to question it. But after a couple of generations of waiting for the Lord to "build the Church" according to the LCM vision of reclusive spirituality and not seeing it happen, perhaps it’s time to consider that he has been waiting for something else.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So where is that impact? How is the world being turned upside down by us? Where are we having anything like the impact Jesus had?

Two personal stories. First, was when I was down and out, essentially unemployable. Discouraged, confused, frustrated. I got a job mopping floors, minimum wage, no benefits, part time (12 hours/wk). Living in in a shelter. No where to go.

One day, this lady came in the place and I was mopping in front of the ladies room, with my little yellow triangle warning "wet floor" and "piso mojado" with the image of the guy slipping, and my cart with a trash bag and a mop bucket. You have to understand that once I was "somebody", an up-and-comer in the world (and yes, with an attitude).

So this little old lady walks up to the bathroom door, and I got out of her way, and for some reason I decided to be nice. I don't know why, but for some reason I decided to smile and say, "Good morning", like I was the doorman at the Ritz-Carlton. Complete with the little head-nod. She stopped, looked at me, smiled, slowly nodded her head and said gravely, "Good morning." Then she went into the bathroom and I kept mopping.

That moment changed my life. That moment I realized that I could be happy and smile, instead of frown. I could say, "Good morning" and give somebody courtesy. Didn't matter my situation.

And that moment began a complete transformation of my career. Instead of trying to be somebody, I try to help others. I live to serve. The Lord clearly showed me, "It is better to give than to receive.", and "What you do to others will be done to you." Instead of "Me, me, me" I began to think, "How can I help others?"

Now here is my point. Who was that little old lady? Did she travel around the world, smiling and saying, "Good morning" and transforming lives, one by one? Nobody knows or will know. It doesn't matter. . . the point is that God can do amazing things with the smallest gesture. Trust God. Be nice and love your neighbor. God can use that love, however ephemeral, to transform the world. And yes it may involve material giving. It may involve spending time, paying attention, weeping with those who weep.

God wants to transform the world, but He does it by saving people. So let Him deal with the first part, and take care of His command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Forgive, pray, care for, etc. And yes, give. Give to your wife, your children, your parents, your siblings, your neighbor, your church, your local non-profit. But more than money give yourself.

Second story: about 4 yrs ago I was in the ministry (not LsM, another), and they were going over a prophetic utterance that was quoted in the NT, and suddenly I felt a presence that made me get on the floor. I had tears pouring out of my eyes, I was sobbing. I was in the presence of holiness and love. I knew that the word was about Jesus, but suddenly I knew the 'presence', not of Jesus but of the Holy Spirit who was declaring the truth about Jesus through the prophetic word. It was, if you will, "the Spirit of Jesus". Slowly, I came to my senses and sat back down. Re-evaluated the word, and found myself on the floor, again, sobbing. This happened about 4 or 5 times.

I was simultaneously aware of my wretched sinfulness, and God's perfect holiness, and my utter separation - "depart from me, for I am a sinful man" - but at the same time I felt love coming through that holiness and reaching me in my sin, and keeping me in its power. It was right there in the word, all along, but I never felt it. Now I felt it. So I wept, like a child restored to his parent, both acknowledging his wrongness that separated him for a moment, and the Father's seeking and embracing love that overcame the wrongness.

The word became the framework, or the vehicle, of the Holy Spirit to declare the Son, not in a way of knowledge but in reality; and in the Son I could "see" or sense or experience, and re-connect the Father, lost for so long but now found again. . . It was the most amazing experience of my life.

Now I come to the point of the second story. Where is the issue? Who got touched by my experience? Has anyone else fallen on the floor, weeping at God's holy presence, as I shared this (or any other) prophetic word with them? If no, why not?

Has my living changed? Can anyone see the issue of this? Can I say, as Paul put it to Agrippa, that I have not been unfaithful to the heavenly vision?

I do know that my speaking, thinking, and message began to change dramatically after that (and there have been several other, similar events as well), but how much or in what manner the Lord will reveal at the end. My point is this: God can in an instant change everything. Saul, breathing threats and murder, gets knocked down, sees a bright light and hears a voice - it can happen to anyone. That is how God works. The question is, Does He work through me? I met the Lord; now has anyone else met the Lord through me? Or did the passage of the Holy Spirit stop with me? Let it not be so! Lord Jesus, let it not be so! Lord, make me an instrument of Your will!

God doesn't need our $165 Billion; He needs us to "infect" our neighbor with the divine fire. And yes, infection may involve monetary transfer; it may involve many things. But at its core it is God's presence making itself known in our lives so that, like those who got touched by Jesus in the gospels, we cannot contain our story, or His glory, and go around declaring to one and all that the kingdom is here. We have to pour ourselves out, we have no choice. The Spirit's presence is too strong.

All of this, of course, is just my opinion, today. (and yes, I did watch the video).

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

God doesn't need our $165 Billion; He needs us to "infect" our neighbor with the divine fire.

While I can agree with your second clause, I don't think you can make the first one so flatly.

Certainly $165 billion with no spiritual underpinnings would be useless. But we do live in a physical world which requires money to operate. I appreciate your stories of simple kindnesses working good. But they actually make the case that $165 billion worth of kindnesses could work a lot of good. It's not either/or. Both can have their place.

Regardless the real point of starting this thread was not to enforce tithing, nor to place the focus on some amount of dollars. It was to point out that (1) God expects us to give (2) the US Church based on income most likely does not give near enough and (3) works that will glorify God and help spread the gospel are not getting done precisely because there is not enough giving. Talk to any missions group. They always want to do more and usually a lack of funds is the reason they can't.

Does money get wasted? Of course. Money gets wasted in any endeavor, secular or religious. But that's not an excuse not to still undertake the endeavor nor to categorically refuse to support similar endeavors. Your kids waste money. Does that mean you stop supporting them? I understand passing on organizations with terrible financial records, but using the existence of some as an excuse to support none seems ignoble.

Another, possibly more crucial, point of this thread was to discuss our general tendency to hesitate to help others because we don't want to participate in some "social gospel." I understand this to some degree. But it can simply be a convenient excuse. The ultimate point of charity is to lead people to Christ. And showing someone you care for them to the point of being willing to sacrifice your time, energy and money on their behalf while expecting nothing in return is a hard-to-beat way to soften their heart toward what you believe. The point is not to fix the world, but if a better world comes because we were loving people in Christ's name, what is the problem with that? Look at some of the worst parts of the world socially and politically--places where war, oppression and injustice run rampant. You don't think the Lord hates that? Don't you think he would like to see things change there, if only to make it easier for the gospel to spread? Certainly change starts with hearts. But money helps. Does your knowledge that the world ends badly lead you to not show practical love for others when the result could be salvations? I don't think the Lord is going to buy that.

In my opinion, we discount the power of this kind of thing much too much. And we use spiritual excuses to excuse ourselves from getting involved when the real reason is we don't want to be bothered. This is another LCM legacy, stronghold really, that needs to be broken down.

Like I said, I'm as bad a violator as anyone. But the Lord has put this on my heart.


Isaiah 1:17 - Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Zechariah 7:9-10 - So says the LORD of hosts, Execute true judgment, and show mercy and compassion every man to his brother.

Proverbs 31:9 - Open your mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Jeremiah 22:3 - So says the LORD; Execute judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Psalms 82:3 - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Isaiah 58:6-12 - Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

. . . we use spiritual excuses to excuse ourselves from getting involved when the real reason is we don't want to be bothered. This is another LCM legacy, stronghold really, that needs to be broken down..

Actually we refrain because we are afraid. The problem seems so big and our resources so small. We are afraid to address the problems because we'll be exposed as frauds. Thats why the Lee church never tried to do any good. It couldn't. So they pretend that they have better things to do.

And it's not limited to the Lee church. I read a story once about a man who worked for one of those "healer" charismatic ministries, and when they actually brought in a sick person the healer wouldn't acknowledge her. Because the carefully staged world would collapse when confronted with the real one.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

Actually we refrain because we are afraid. The problem seems so big and our resources so small. We are afraid to address the problems because we'll be exposed as frauds. Thats why the Lee church never tried to do any good. It couldn't. So they pretend that they have better things to do.

And it's not limited to the Lee church. I read a story once about a man who worked for one of those "healer" charismatic ministries, and when they actually brought in a sick person the healer wouldn't acknowledge her. Because the carefully staged world would collapse when confronted with the real one.

Matthew 25 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant!


We tend to think of talents as gifts. But they include everything the Lord has given us, including... money. And note this servant was the one who had been given the least. Yikes!

[micah6v8]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Does money get wasted? Of course. Money gets wasted in any endeavor, secular or religious. But that's not an excuse not to still undertake the endeavor nor to categorically refuse to support similar endeavors. Your kids waste money. Does that mean you stop supporting them? I understand passing on organizations with terrible financial records, but using the existence of some as an excuse to support none seems ignoble.

Reminds me of Matthew 13

³ Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. ⁴ As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. ⁵ Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. ⁶ But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. ⁷ Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. ⁸ Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. ⁹ Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

In sowing, we would not want to waste our time and good seed if they were going to fall on rocky places/be dried up by the sun or choked by thorns. We all would like to be the one in verse 8 which yielded a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sowed. (Just like the boy who offered up five loaves and two fishes and God could feed five thousand with these).

Paul also noted that he planted and Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.

Even if we all planted and watered on good soil, we cannot expect fruitful results all the time. In farming, there could still be an unexpected flood which wipes away our fruit. Not everything goes to plan.

At the end of the day, given that divine sovereignty goes along with human responsibility, we all have to do our part to the best of our ability and if God is willing, the fruit will come.

I assume that doing our best means not deliberately sowing seeds on rocky places/where there are thorns. (But then again, perhaps it is not easy in real life to tell what are the rocky place/thorns.)

[OBW]

A different thought on the following:

Originally Posted by aron

God doesn't need our $165 Billion; He needs us to "infect" our neighbor with the divine fire.

No. God doesn't need our $165 billion. But he will use it if it is there.

But the calling was not to infect our neighbor with any kind of fire. Just love them as we love ourselves.

It was not to be odd for odd's sake. It was not to say a lot of stuff to them about Jesus (not that there is anything wrong with that). It was not to help them with a tag attached to the help that says "this was provided by the _____ [Christian group or whatever]."

It was just to love them. To live righteously in everything we do. The infection comes when they take note, follow, and meet Jesus. When they ask and we reply "come and see." We don't even need the words. Just the love. If they want, they will seek and find.

I am not dismissing any kind of evangelistic efforts, events, activities, etc. But if we are not living that life, all the evangelistic things we do will be a problem. They will be hollow replacements for actual obedience.

And no matter how much we like the old-school view of grace, if you don't obey, there is a problem. Obedience seems to come ahead of so many of the "spiritual" things that the Bible talks about.