Andy Anderson on the "Overcomers"

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Obviously you didn't read the other posts.

1. the overriding principle is not that we go to paradise when we die but, as it says in Phil, we go to be with the Lord. This we feel is because our life is hid in the Lord. So when the Lord told the thief He would be with him this day in Paradise it wasn't because that is where we go, but because he was going to be with the Lord.

2. As for "the dead in Christ rising first" we determined, based on 1Cor 15 that when we die our body is sown as a seed and the in resurrection it is raised a spiritual body, like "the bodies" that Jesus had, or like those that the ones who are resuscitated report seeing. This is the reason it says "the dead in christ rise" because just like a seed sprouting our transfigured bodies will also "sprout" in type.

3. Therefore we also concluded that Christianity is not "off the mark" to say that we "go to heaven when we die" though the emphasis is wrong. Since Jesus is currently in heaven and we are going to be with Him.

4. Using the Lord's words to the thief on the cross though is clearly an erroneous basis for this teaching.

As to your question "Do we need to understand..." Paul himself in 1Cor 15 said that "some will ask ..." in reference to what happens when we die. Since Christ has been to every realm of the universe we should be able to fellowship this and it is Paul that explains this. So yes, you should be able to explain in a coherent way to one who asks what happens when you die.

As for this forum it is very relevant because it is a shining example of how the LRC thinks that they are rich and know all mysteries but are in fact blind.

Three things.

First. If "Jesus is in heaven and we are going to be with Him," then either we actually do go to heaven to be with Him now, or we will eventually be with Him wherever he is after our resurrection since he may not be in heaven then. But if the latter is the case, then we do not simply "go to be with Him upon death. Getting circular. And it still does not affect this life — the only part that is important to "get right." If we get that right, the rest will fall in place. If we get it wrong, then it still won't matter. But getting where we go upon death right changes nothing.

Second. On the "sowing" reference in your second point, that would seem to be a picture, not something so literal. You didn't really say one way or the other, but the way you are going on about this makes it seem as if you are certain that it is a literal thing, not just a picture.

Third. Whether you go to a place (heaven or paradise — assuming a difference) or just to limbo until the resurrection, how does it change anything about this life in a meaningful way? And how does it affect what happens at the resurrection?

In other words, why do you think it is important to figure out?

And "because it's in the Bible" is not a reason that it is important. All those rabbis and priests who spent so much time trying to decide what was "work" relative to the sabbath were just trying to figure it all out. And who would have presumed that speaking would ever be considered "work"? Yet that is all Jesus did when he healed the invalid by the Sheep Gate pool. That was really important. It has been suggested that until they figured out it was Jesus who had done it, they probably didn't really think speaking could be considered work.

But it is in scripture, so I guess we have an obligation to beat that dead horse to death. It is there. Must be important. Just as important as Jesus healing the man.

I know this sounds sarcastic. And it could be taken that way. But this is my honest take on "because it's in the Bible." It seems to me to be another case for missing the important things said while turning snippets into fortune cookies for an "out of context" experience.

The Bible does not say "paradise is thus and so," and "heaven is the same as (or different than) paradise." It does not imply that there is content to the "between time" of after death but before resurrection that we need to focus on. It focuses almost entirely on now. Plus a little vague reference to resurrection and after. And I say "little focus" because even much of Revelation is about things on the earth. Even the so-called millennium is little more than a blip in the entirety of scripture. It is as if it is 99% now, 0.85% the 7-year "tribulation," and 0.15% the New J. The thousand years is infinitesimally too small to measure.