Andy Anderson on the "Overcomers"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The stories of those who have died and been resuscitated is compelling. Still I would want to base my understanding on Bible verses. I can see that Paul's use of "Paradise" is equivalent to Jesus', but shouldn't there be some explanation of how Paradise was moved and why do other verses refer to "the dead in Christ rise first" if they are actually descending?

Eph 4.8 indicates He took some with Him when He ascended, and "rising from the dead" may only refer to our bodies. I admit there are difficulties. Does only the body "sleep?" Does Luke 16 then refer only to O.T. saints?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Eph 4.8 indicates He took some with Him when He ascended, and "rising from the dead" may only refer to our bodies. I admit there are difficulties. Does only the body "sleep?" Does Luke 16 then refer only to O.T. saints?

Do the dead rise with their original physical bodies? What if they were cremated? I assume that if they rise with a physical body it isn't the same one they died with.

[UntoHim]

ZNP,
As a former Local Churcher you should be intimately familiar with 1 Corinthians 15. I use the word "should" here advisedly, because the truth is that Witness Lee taught us all to have tunnel vision regarding this chapter. We all focused on verse 45"b"(the last Adam became a life giving spirit), so much so that we lost track of the context in which verse 45 should be placed in. The context - the immediate context - from verse 35 through the end of the chapter is crystal clear: "But someone will say, 'How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?' ".

To put the finest point possible on this part of the chapter, the apostle Paul is explaining to the Corinthians in the most basic and clearest way, that we have a physical "earthy" body which will be transformed "in the twinkling of an eye" into a "spiritual", "incorruptible" body. Verse 45, when taken in context of this section of chapter 15, is simply stating that Jesus Christ was the forerunner in this mysterious, glorious and wonderful transformation. If verse 45 is telling us that Jesus Christ became the Holy Spirit then we are all going to become the Holy Spirit

Anyway, from verse 35 to the end of the chapter is answering your question in vivid detail.

[ZNPaaneah]

Very nice, so this reconciles the term "the dead in Christ are raised". Our physical death is likened to a seed being sown, and our resurrection is likened to the seed sprouting and rising up as a spiritual body, similar to the Lord's resurrection. The Last Adam becoming a life giving spirit is the forerunner for all men. This corresponds nicely with the accounts of people who have been resuscitated since they can recognize people, just like the disciples could recognize Jesus yet His body was clearly a spiritual body.

I think this little distraction should make it very clear that just like the church in Laodicea which was so sure that they were rich and knew all mysteries and were clueless that they were in fact blind, in the same way the LRC is blind. They are quite confident that they know that Christianity is "wrong" to say that when they die they will go to heaven, yet the truth according to the NT is that when we die "we will be with Christ", and Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God.

In addition they confuse Jesus resurrecting with a spiritual body with the different persons of the godhead, muddling up their teaching on the trinity and missing the idea that we all will be raised with a spiritual body, since we all are "Adam".

Christianity has the right idea but didn't have the verses to support it, as a result the teaching seems erroneous. Confusing Paradise with Heaven in the verse with the Thief. This is a good reason why we need to know the verses that the teachings are built on and not just the teaching.

ICor 15 also points out that "some will ask..." As Christians who have fellowship with Jesus we should be aware of the things in the heavens, not just those on the earth (Jn. 3:11-13) and if someone asks these questions we should be able to explain these things intelligently. This is further testimony that Jesus is Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Do the dead rise with their original physical bodies? What if they were cremated? I assume that if they rise with a physical body it isn't the same one they died with.

In the Colton Burpo account, his older sister who was miscarried was a young girl who greeted him in heaven, yet she bore strong familial resemblance, so that he believed her story, though he had absolutely no prior knowledge that he even had a sister.

His paternal great-grandfather appeared to him younger than he did when he died and was readily recognizable by the boy in photos. Of course this only raises more questions. How can the boy, while dead and gone to heaven, recognize his own sister and his g-grandfather whom he never met? How can they have a visible form, yet have no body?

I long have condemned the paintings of the face of Jesus which I was so accustomed to see as a Catholic. I had always assumed that it was the imagination of some artist back in the dark ages. I assumed the same with angels. Now I'm not so sure. Possibly that picture could have been sketched by someone who actually died and came back from heaven. He/she was only sketching what had been seen.

Both of those two young boys Alex Malarkey and Colton Burpo claimed that Jesus held them and comforted them. They definitely knew who Jesus was and who He was not. Each "person" they met had a definite identity. Alex even learned the names of several angels who tended to him. He seemed to have no trouble identifying them once they were introduced.

Alex' father verified every story with the scripture. He was definitely skeptical, but as a parent, knew what his child had known, and knew what he had not known. Alex' story never changed from day one. Both boys knew things that were impossible to know. It was never a matter of whether they were imagining something.

[MacDuff]

It could be true that when we die we go to wherever Jesus is. At this point he is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father. And we who are in Christ and part of his body thereby, it makes sense that we would be there. But also there is also the reference to the heavenly Jerusalem, and Revelation is clear that Jesus is there. And it comes to earth in the end. And that both the Father and the Son are there. So it may be we can eventually come up with a scenario that covers most of the verses. And there seems to be quite a few verses that hint at what will be after death. I know there are a lot of books written on the subject. None of which I've read because I only have time to deal with the present.

These people who claim to have seen things on the other side before being revived, there are getting to be quite a few of these people. Haven't paid much mind to them either. Do they all become Christians? I'm thinking of that parable where Jesus said something like even if one was sent back they still wouldn't believe.

MacDuff

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by MacDuff

These people who claim to have seen things on the other side before being revived, there are getting to be quite a few of these people. Haven't paid much mind to them either. Do they all become Christians? I'm thinking of that parable where Jesus said something like even if one was sent back they still wouldn't believe.

MacDuff

I was in Taiwan teaching English and we were reading a story published in Life magazine on children that had been resuscitated and the pictures they drew of their experience. It was very interesting, regardless of where they lived or the religion of their family they all reported seeing Jesus. In that class there was a man who said he also had been resuscitated, and that he had died for about 30 seconds. I already knew from prior discussions that he was a Buddhist.

So I asked what his experience was. He said he also saw Jesus. That really confused me, so I asked if you saw Jesus why are you a Buddhist? He said that for a few weeks he tried going to Christian churches but didn't understand what they were talking about so he returned to being a Buddhist.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I was in Taiwan teaching English and we were reading a story published in Life magazine on children that had been resuscitated and the pictures they drew of their experience. It was very interesting, regardless of where they lived or the religion of their family they all reported seeing Jesus.

The universal story I hear is of being "embraced by the light", as Betty Eadie put it.

http://www.embracedbythelight.com/

And I had not considered the "Jesus" part of it so strongly, but you seem to have a point.

I remember a story of an English rock star, Robert Plant, who wrote a blues number called "In my time of dying", in which at one point he sings, "Oh my Jesus!" over and over. Years later, he was in a horrific car crash. He testified that as the vehicle tumbled down the embankment, the only thing in his mind were those words.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

... there was a man who said he also had been resuscitated, and that he had died for about 30 seconds. I already knew from prior discussions that he was a Buddhist.

So I asked what his experience was. He said he also saw Jesus. That really confused me, so I asked if you saw Jesus why are you a Buddhist? He said that for a few weeks he tried going to Christian churches but didn't understand what they were talking about so he returned to being a Buddhist.

I think that story is hilarious. I mean, I have to laugh so that I don't cry. My feeling for quite some time has been that the only thing stopping the Good News is our interpretation of it.

By this I don't argue for some universalist, watered-down version, but rather that the power, the simplicity, the purity and the visceral impact of the Spirit of the Man Jesus has been largely lost. We believers get a brief glimpse, then we typically spend the rest of our time in either empty ritual or empty doctrine. And the curious and open person visits our ekklesia and says, like your Buddhist, "I don't know what they are talking about".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the Colton Burpo account, his older sister who was miscarried was a young girl who greeted him in heaven, yet she bore strong familial resemblance, so that he believed her story, though he had absolutely no prior knowledge that he even had a sister..

I have seen some specials on the Shroud of Turin (Discover channel, History channel, something like that) and one of the best documents to support the Shroud's history are pictures done of Jesus that bear a striking resemblance to the image on the Shroud. This is especially significant since the image on the Shroud is so distinct.

I also saw another special on the "Face of Jesus" where they reconstruct the image from the Shroud taking into account the distortion that a sheet draped over a face would make. They used 3d imaging technology from NASA, etc and the face they reconstructed was much more similar to a young Middle Eastern face, not so elongated.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have seen some specials on the Shroud of Turin (Discover channel, History channel, something like that) and one of the best documents to support the Shroud's history are pictures done of Jesus that bear a striking resemblance to the image on the Shroud. This is especially significant since the image on the Shroud is so distinct.

I assume that the pictures you are referring to are not the "traditional" ones with fair skin and blue eyes.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm sure that they aren't.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the Colton Burpo account, his older sister who was miscarried was a young girl who greeted him in heaven, yet she bore strong familial resemblance, so that he believed her story, though he had absolutely no prior knowledge that he even had a sister. . . .

I recall someone in the mid 70s who told of attending a weekend training (not LRC) designed to teach about the issues surrounding demon and Satan worship. One of the "teachers" had obtained some kind of manual on the subject and was reading some descriptions from it, when they began to read off some names of demons. This guy told of having the very distinct sense that something entered the room each time one of the names was spoken, as if responding to a call. He decided that he would not return after the lunch break.

I tell that story because I know that there is something in the spiritual realm that we are not truly knowledgeable about. I know there are demons and angels. There is God and there is Satan.

But the accounts from these kids may be real, or they may be imagined. The details that they supposedly knew nothing about may not have been as unknown as was thought. Or they may have truly not known and learned something factual while on the brink of death.

But something that always keeps me guarded on these is that studies of the stories of near-death experiences show that the person almost always sees things that are consistent with the "mythology" of their culture. A Chinese Buddhist sees things from that culture. And Indian Hindu from that culture. So many aspects of the stories are culturally centered.

But I did say "most." There are some that take some explaining away. Mostly because the expectations are not met. The vision was not consistent with the culture or belief. Or there is the thought that details that could (or at least should) not have been known were revealed.

For me, I take note of them. But I realize that my faith is not based on whether someone thinks they "went to heaven" (or actually did) and lived to tell about it. It is based on the realization that Jesus is who he said he was/is. That prophecy was fulfilled. And so on.

For the child that met a great grandfather and saw them at a younger age, since the description could be verified with photographs, could the child have seen them even if they were not remembered specifically?

Not trying to debunk the stories. Just noting that faith based on these things will be as tenuous as the evidence that it is really miraculous rather than a product of a busy mind under stress.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

But something that always keeps me guarded on these is that studies of the stories of near-death experiences show that the person almost always sees things that are consistent with the "mythology" of their culture.

The little boy met his miscarried sister and his long diseased g-grandfather -- sounds -- yep, sounds to me like typical American mythology.

[Cal]

Near-death stories about seeing heaven don't do much for me because they are unverifiable and they don't add anything to my faith. I'm going to believe in heaven whether I hear them or not.

I guess there are people who think, "Wow. I never believed in heaven before, but since that little boy told his story about going there now I believe." But I'm not one of them.

I'm much more impressed by the stories of Muslims in the Middle East who say Jesus came to them in their dreams and preached the gospel to them, and have converted because of it. Those have the ring of truth. See here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Near-death stories about seeing heaven don't do much for me because they are unverifiable and they don't add anything to my faith. I'm going to believe in heaven whether I hear them or not.

I guess there are people who think, "Wow. I never believed in heaven before, but since that little boy told his story about going there now I believe." But I'm not one of them.

I'm much more impressed by the stories of Muslims in the Middle East who say Jesus came to them in their dreams and preached the gospel to them, and have converted because of it. Those have the ring of truth. See here.

Igzy, methinks you're being way too subjective here in protest. That's like me saying, "Muslims seeing Jesus in their dreams don't do much for me because they are unverifiable and they don't add anything to my faith. I'm going to believe in Jesus whether I hear them or not. I guess there are people who think, 'Wow. I never believed in Jesus before, but since that Moslem told his story about seeing Jesus in his dream, now I believe.' But I'm not one of them."

We who are long time believers in Jesus (and heaven) do not need others' testimonies for our faith. These wonderful testimonies may, however, inspire us on our journey. Some of His other chosen ones, however, may be drawn to Jesus for the first time!

In this regard I see the Father's love -- He is using all kinds of signs and wonders in these last days to draw men to His Son. Whether dreams, or near death experiences, or just old fashioned altar calls.

Note: 3 short paragraphs. Each one short, quick, and to the point. Not a wasted word, and less than 500 words.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Note: 3 short paragraphs. Each one short, quick, and to the point. Not a wasted word, and less than 500 words.

Except for the note.

And your response should be: (at me)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We who are long time believers in Jesus (and heaven) do not need others' testimonies for our faith. These wonderful testimonies may, however, inspire us on our journey. Some of His other chosen ones, however, may be drawn to Jesus for the first time!

In this regard I see the Father's love -- He is using all kinds of signs and wonders in these last days to draw men to His Son. Whether dreams, or near death experiences, or just old fashioned altar calls.

Precisely! Why does everything have to be for "my" benefit. If it helps some come to the Lord isn't that more than reason enough? Suppose some kid in a very strict Muslim family, perhaps in a country where Christian meetings are prohibited, dies and is resuscitated. You don't think that kids testimony will be powerful to his family? How can this kid grow up to to attack Christian churches after having an experience like that?