Whistleblower

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,
Of course, the elders are responsible for the administration in the local church. Scripture is clear on that point....

Mr Drake,

You have been with LC for 4 decades, you should know the actual reasons why John Ingalls was quarantined, instead of asking, could you share why he was quarantined? I am quite eager to know the truth also.

If you don't know, why don't you ask Ron Kangas?
Thanks.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you don't know, why don't you ask Ron Kangas?

Uummm. Because Koinonia and I are conversing?

[OhLordJesus]

Originally Posted by Drake

Uummm. Because Koinonia and I are conversing?

Mr Drake,

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I am eagerly to know some of the details in this thread especially whether PL sexual abuse is true or not. If so, what was the decision made by WL as a father or a responsible one from the LSM. I thought you had all the details since you asked many challenged questions to some members here. Could you please enlighten me?

Thank you, sir.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

Mr Drake,

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I am eagerly to know some of the details in this thread especially whether PL sexual abuse is true or not. If so, what was the decision made by WL as a father or a responsible one from the LSM. I thought you had all the details since you asked many challenged questions to some members here. Could you please enlighten me?

Thank you, sir.

OhLordJesus, did you read John Ingalls' lengthy account of these events in Speaking The Truth in Love?

It's posted on the sub-forum "Writings of former members."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

Mr Drake,

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I am eagerly to know some of the details in this thread especially whether PL sexual abuse is true or not. If so, what was the decision made by WL as a father or a responsible one from the LSM. I thought you had all the details since you asked many challenged questions to some members here. Could you please enlighten me?

Thank you, sir.

You are not interrupting. That was an answer to a question you asked me.

My enlightenment for you is this.....If you read this thread and others like it from beginning to end you will know who knows what, who thinks what, and why they believe as they do and any assumptions they are making, what is based on sound reasoning verses fallacy in argumentation and where fact ends and opinion begins. Ohio has pointed you to reference material that we sometimes use as a basis for our conversations. Read that too. All for free unless you feel to contribute monetarily to the cause.

Since you are a self admitted eager learner knowing little about this topic then I suggest you start there. Once you understand what has already been discussed then you will offer your own informed opinion and insight and may have some questions along the way. Some here will become your cheerleaders like LofT, some may challenge you, and some may pay no attention to you at all. Some may even become your teachers. Choose wisely. No worries though, it’s all part of the discourse that takes place in here so don’t take anything personal.

Well, that should jump start you here so I hope that helps.

Oh, one more thing... I almost forgot... silly me. If you find someone is baiting you, or asking entrapment questions, or starts badgering you, my advice is that you put them on your ignore list. Works every time. So, if someone stops answering your questions you might be on that person’s ignore list. Or maybe that person just thinks your posts are irrelevant.... but if that happens to you don’t be alarmed because you’ll learn.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You are not interrupting. That was an answer to a question you asked me.

My enlightenment for you is this.....If you read this thread and others like it from beginning to end you will know who knows what, who thinks what, and why they believe as they do and any assumptions they are making, what is based on sound reasoning verses fallacy in argumentation and where fact ends and opinion begins. Ohio has pointed you to reference material that we sometimes use as a basis for our conversations. Read that too. All for free unless you feel to contribute monetarily to the cause.

Since you are a self admitted eager learner not knowing little about this topic then I suggest you start there. Once you understand what has already been discussed then you will offer your own informed opinion and insight and may have some questions along the way. Some here will become your cheerleaders like LofT, some may challenge you, and some may pay no attention to you at all. No worries though, it’s all part of the discourse that takes place in here so don’t take anything personal.

Well, that should jump start you here so I hope that helps.

Oh, one more thing... I almost forgot... silly me. If you find someone is baiting you, or asking entrapment questions, or starts badgering you, my advice is that you put them on your ignore list. Works every time. So, if someone stops answering your questions you might be on that person’s ignore list. Or maybe that person just thinks your posts are irrelevant.... but if that happens to you don’t be alarmed because you’ll learn.

Drake

So Drake, I'm so surprised that you did not recommend that book of lies and smear job which Lee published about these same events called Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. What a libelous rag that was.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So Drake, I'm so surprised that you did not recommend that book of lies and smear job which Lee published about these same events called Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. What a libelous rag that was.

Ohio,

Seeing how he is a newbie I didn’t want to overwhelm him. However, you should feel free to send him your copy.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

Mr Drake,

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I am eagerly to know some of the details in this thread especially whether PL sexual abuse is true or not. If so, what was the decision made by WL as a father or a responsible one from the LSM. I thought you had all the details since you asked many challenged questions to some members here. Could you please enlighten me?

Thank you, sir.

This is laid out for you beginning with the first post of the topic. Note that even WL never disputed the accusations against his son. Also, since the article appeared in the Los Angeles Times, and since the LSM does not now OWN the LA Times we can conclude there was no libel lawsuit wherein the LSM prevailed.

This should save you some research time. However, do read Speaking the Truth in Love for a clear picture of the events.

Nell

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I am eagerly to know some of the details in this thread especially whether PL sexual abuse is true or not. If so, what was the decision made by WL as a father or a responsible one from the LSM.

Just a helpful suggestion, you can go back and see all members comments on this site. I noticed you were asking this to a specific person and I did the same thing when I first got on here! Trying to sort it all out and see who is who is really overwhelming. It's good to have some comradory and trust with certain people but you have to consider the source. Some people on here are intentionally frustrating, avoid answering logical questions, and talk in circles- avoiding the true points of discussion. Of course, it's good to get both sides of the story but I would suggest considering the source and the amount of evidence both sides have to offer.

I'm glad the others recommended "Speaking the Truth in Love," I was going to suggest that. It really helped me. Even then, you'll have to dig a little deeper because John Ingalls refrains from mentioning the specific details of the grave offenses by Philip Lee. He also (and someone please offer an explanation to why if you know!) doesn't mention that the "brother" being excommunicated that the elders were undecided about- was PL.

He mentions the "grave offenses" by PL, but he's very careful not to go into the details. Obviously, we know they were serious in nature due to the fact that excommunication was on the table....

I'm just saying this to encourage you to read ALL the accounts, testimonies, and personal experiences that so many people have to offer before making a judgement. It's been a hard thing for me to do and I'm still coming to terms with the idea that the local church isn't what I thought it was.

Just be careful (and I'm telling myself this too) of who you go to to get the "truth" on here. The truth is somewhere in the middle of these two sides everyone is on, I'm sure. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life- that's all we really know.

I think it's really easy to get caught up in all the "bad things" that happened in the church. Obviously, where there's smoke- there is fire. But that was in the past and there's never going to be a clear answer, just speculation....

For me, I had to look at what Christian scholars and psychology recommends in terms of healthy/unhealthy spiritual boundaries, abuse, and best/worst practices in Christian movements. Once I did that- it was very clear. The local church is a breeding ground for spiritual abuse, manipulation, mind control, and exploits genuine believers mentally and financially. I'm not saying that was ever the intention, but sin has turned it into that. The people that are in are involved in cult mindsets/practices that have weaved their way into Christian circles. They associate their experience with the Lord with the local church and can't separate the two, all while under the influence of group think and mind narrowing thought reform techniques.

There's a lot of info about it on here, and elsewhere. Everything good I read on it doesn't even mention the LC, just helps you identify bad practices and abuse. I would definitely recommend looking into that.

Peace and love

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I'm glad the others recommended "Speaking the Truth in Love," I was going to suggest that. It really helped me. Even then, you'll have to dig a little deeper because John Ingalls refrains from mentioning the specific details of the grave offenses by Philip Lee. He also (and someone please offer an explanation to why if you know!) doesn't mention that the "brother" being excommunicated that the elders were undecided about- was PL.

He mentions the "grave offenses" by PL, but he's very careful not to go into the details. Obviously, we know they were serious in nature due to the fact that excommunication was on the table....

I'm just saying this to encourage you to read ALL the accounts, testimonies, and personal experiences that so many people have to offer before making a judgement. It's been a hard thing for me to do and I'm still coming to terms with the idea that the local church isn't what I thought it was.

Kumbaya, few comments here.

This post shows you have studied LC history well.

John Ingalls' account STTIL is absolutely trustworthy in every detail.

John's reluctance to expose some of the worst details PROVES that he never harbored any ill will towards Witness Lee or LSM. It also PROVES that everything written by Lee and LSM about him and others like So, Mallon, and Fung was all lies. History shows us conclusively that there never was a conspiracy to destroy Lee or LSM. What we were told about Ingalls et. al. in meetings and in the book Fermentation... was all lies.

Why? Simple. To preserve the pristine image of WL. In order to do that, he and all his accomplices at LSM had to destroy the reputations of the whistleblowers.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Kumbaya, few comments here.

This post shows you have studied LC history well.

John Ingalls' account STTIL is absolutely trustworthy in every detail.

John's reluctance to expose some of the worst details PROVES that he never harbored any ill will towards Witness Lee or LSM. It also PROVES that everything written by Lee and LSM about him and others like So, Mallon, and Fung was all lies. History shows us conclusively that there never was a conspiracy to destroy Lee or LSM. What we were told about Ingalls et. al. in meetings and in the book Fermentation... was all lies.

Why? Simple. To preserve the pristine image of WL. In order to do that, he and all his accomplices at LSM had to destroy the reputations of the whistleblowers.

I’ve spent a lot of time reading things but there’s still so much. I went from trying to prove that this was really a site just to attack and wanting to feel like it was all lies to the realization that these are people that have been hurt, like me, by the LC. Maybe not intentionally, but the mental and spiritual damage is there. I’ll be ok- but it’s important to recognize that you probably have some flawed mentalities and ways of thinking after being in such a totalist mindset, Christian or not!

I believe John Ingalls account is factual- if anything just bc I feel his spirit. And I did respect the fact that he didn’t go into the details of Philip Lee’s behavior- even though I wanted to know! You can tell he was following his conscience on that.

I just had an experience with a family member today where I realized even with the “hard evidence” of WL himself admitting that the church in Boston loaned money to his businesses and also LSM loaned money to them (basically incriminating himself), that they can’t hear it. The response was, “I’m sorry you feel that way.” It’s so incredibly frustrating. Of course, when this many people give the same account, there has to be something there! But the recording of WL is ACTUAL PROOF of illegal activity. Unless you want to claim that someone was impersonating him- I don’t see how you can overlook it!

It just made me realize the blinders that are on them.

For me, if WL had come out and apologized for the whole Daystar thing, took responsibly, and repented- that would be different. My issue with it is more the cover up, the attacks on other brothers, the lack of accountability. His response was that of a guilty person. An innocent person is an open book, ready to prove their innocence. I feel like I can rightly assume that given the decades this scandal has been covered up- if the local church leaders could prove it didn’t happen, they would! Instead, there are RECORDINGS and numerous testimonies. Which, by the way, testimonies are admissible in a court of law- yet members in the LC are told (I believe it’s from the book the “overcomers”) that anyone who says anything “negative” (with no definition on what that even means and no verses justifying this statement), is a “wrong” person. You should stay away from this “wrong” person, or you will be contaminated.

Can you believe the blatant cult mentality there? I’ll have to find the quote- I’m not exaggerating. So, what we have is a system of zero accountability, no clear picture on what it means to be negative or a wrong person- just a picture full of fear....Ultimately, no one wants to be “negative” so to call out bad behavior might make you that, make you a “wrong person,” and make other people stay away from you.

It’s apparently working-most people in my locality have started to distance themselves-even my fam.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Which, by the way, testimonies are admissible in a court of law- yet members in the LC are told (I believe it’s from the book the “overcomers”) that anyone who says anything “negative” (with no definition on what that even means and no verses justifying this statement), is a “wrong” person. You should stay away from this “wrong” person, or you will be contaminated.

Can you believe the blatant cult mentality there? I’ll have to find the quote- I’m not exaggerating. So, what we have is a system of zero accountability, no clear picture on what it means to be negative or a wrong person- just a picture full of fear....Ultimately, no one wants to be “negative” so to call out bad behavior might make you that, make you a “wrong person,” and make other people stay away from you.

It’s apparently working-most people in my locality have started to distance themselves-even my fam.

This turning away is to exercise to quarantine the divisive, sectarian ones in order to protect the saints from being contaminated. The divisive ones are very contagious. Anyone who contacts them will be "infected." This would not be good for them or for others. (Elders' Training, Book 10: The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (2), Chapter 5, Section 3)

If we realize that one who is near us is "dying" or is spreading death, we must keep ourselves away. Otherwise, if we remain near such a person, we will be contaminated by the germs of death. (Elders' Training, Book 10: The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (2), Chapter 6, Section 13)

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

For me, if WL had come out and apologized for the whole Daystar thing, took responsibly, and repented- that would be different. My issue with it is more the cover up, the attacks on other brothers, the lack of accountability. His response was that of a guilty person. An innocent person is an open book, ready to prove their innocence. I feel like I can rightly assume that given the decades this scandal has been covered up- if the local church leaders could prove it didn’t happen, they would! Instead, there are RECORDINGS and numerous testimonies. Which, by the way, testimonies are admissible in a court of law- yet members in the LC are told (I believe it’s from the book the “overcomers”) that anyone who says anything “negative” (with no definition on what that even means and no verses justifying this statement), is a “wrong” person. You should stay away from this “wrong” person, or you will be contaminated.

Can you believe the blatant cult mentality there? I’ll have to find the quote- I’m not exaggerating. So, what we have is a system of zero accountability, no clear picture on what it means to be negative or a wrong person- just a picture full of fear....Ultimately, no one wants to be “negative” so to call out bad behavior might make you that, make you a “wrong person,” and make other people stay away from you.

It’s apparently working-most people in my locality have started to distance themselves-even my fam.

Two points:

1. The holding power of the guanxi network is fear: if you break the web of reciprocal obligations you are O.U.T. out. There is no forgiveness, no reconciliation. It's not very Christian but it's very effective!! Who ever crossed LSM leadership and got back into the network? Nobody.

2. Suppose Daystar had been a successful business, and returned a profit to its investors. It still would be wrong, because Lee used the pulpit to dun the flock for $$ for his family business. Suppose Philip had not been caught repeatedly molesting the help (even tho they were adults, because of the power disparity I don't see it as "consensual"). Suppose Philip had just been a rough unspiritual guy who was installed as 'the Office'?

John So, Manila 1990 "At that time my understanding of the office of Witness Lee, the business office of Witness Lee, was exactly what Witness Lee publicly proclaimed it to be. “It is an office to take care of his tapes, to take care of printing books, and to take care of distributing books to serve all the churches.” That was my understanding. That was really my understanding. And for some reason, there was a lot of problem in Anaheim in the home office of the Living Stream in Anaheim. And it was really at that time not so nice. The fellowship there between the churches in Orange County and the office was not very nice, and I happened to be in one of the meetings, that must be in 1982, and Witness Lee was sharing quite strongly to all the serving ones, especially regarding the Chinese work and the serving ones in the LSM office. And obviously there was a conflict between the office, which is brother Lee’s office, which is also brother Lee’s son, and many serving ones there. And brother Lee again emphasized in those meetings—He said, “Should my private cook in my house also be a spiritual person? What if I hire an unbeliever to print books, this is my business office. My printer doesn’t have to be a spiritual person. And I do have the right to hire my son to be manager of my office to take care of this business for me.” I fully agreed. At that time, I really said, “Fair enough, fair enough.”

My point is that this is still wrong. But nobody could say anything - the culture wouldn't allow it. The mantra was, we are "one", and must be "one" with leadership. This is the problem with the "oneness" church - there's no way to correct any all-too-human faults. And then when it blows up, everyone asks, "Gee, what just happened?"

[OhLordJesus]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Just a helpful suggestion, you can go back and see all members comments on this site. I noticed you were asking this to a specific person and I did the same thing when I first got on here! Trying to sort it all out and see who is who is really overwhelming. It's good to have some comradory and trust with certain people but you have to consider the source. Some people on here are intentionally frustrating, avoid answering logical questions, and talk in circles- avoiding the true points of discussion. Of course, it's good to get both sides of the story but I would suggest considering the source and the amount of evidence both sides have to offer.

I'm glad the others recommended "Speaking the Truth in Love," I was going to suggest that. It really helped me. Even then, you'll have to dig a little deeper because John Ingalls refrains from mentioning the specific details of the grave offenses by Philip Lee. He also (and someone please offer an explanation to why if you know!) doesn't mention that the "brother" being excommunicated that the elders were undecided about- was PL.

He mentions the "grave offenses" by PL, but he's very careful not to go into the details. Obviously, we know they were serious in nature due to the fact that excommunication was on the table....

I'm just saying this to encourage you to read ALL the accounts, testimonies, and personal experiences that so many people have to offer before making a judgement. It's been a hard thing for me to do and I'm still coming to terms with the idea that the local church isn't what I thought it was.

Just be careful (and I'm telling myself this too) of who you go to to get the "truth" on here. The truth is somewhere in the middle of these two sides everyone is on, I'm sure. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life- that's all we really know.

I think it's really easy to get caught up in all the "bad things" that happened in the church. Obviously, where there's smoke- there is fire. But that was in the past and there's never going to be a clear answer, just speculation....

For me, I had to look at what Christian scholars and psychology recommends in terms of healthy/unhealthy spiritual boundaries, abuse, and best/worst practices in Christian movements. Once I did that- it was very clear. The local church is a breeding ground for spiritual abuse, manipulation, mind control, and exploits genuine believers mentally and financially. I'm not saying that was ever the intention, but sin has turned it into that. The people that are in are involved in cult mindsets/practices that have weaved their way into Christian circles. They associate their experience with the Lord with the local church and can't separate the two, all while under the influence of group think and mind narrowing thought reform techniques.

There's a lot of info about it on here, and elsewhere. Everything good I read on it doesn't even mention the LC, just helps you identify bad practices and abuse. I would definitely recommend looking into that.

Peace and love

My mind is always very clear since day 1 I attended LC. I remain neutral until I can see official report to the Authority for illegal activities otherwise the cover up stuffs which some of you discussed here could be just a group of responsible ones handled issues incompetently.

I read some of threads and I knew who is for and who is against LC in this forum. The question is those who support LC, what are their motives of staying here?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

My mind is always very clear since day 1 I attended LC. I remain neutral until I can see official report to the Authority for illegal activities otherwise the cover up stuffs which some of you discussed here could be just a group of responsible ones handled issues incompetently.

I read some of threads and I knew who is for and who is against LC in this forum. The question is those who support LC, what are their motives of staying here?

Gotcha, I wasn’t trying to imply your mind or intentions weren’t in the right place. I’m relatively new on here and am coming from a place of seeing both sides, being in the LC most of my life.

I know John Ingalls account was recommended- that’s a good one. Also, if “evidence” is what you’re looking for, I would start with the recording of WL and Sal Benoit (just google those two names and it should come up).

There’s also a diagram of the Daystar “set up” that explains the conversation. Lmk if u can’t find from a google search and I’ll get u the links!

As far as I know, it didn’t get reported to the authorities and everyone involved (including those just following Bro. Lee’s orders) weren’t found out by law enforcement, and luckily for them- the statute of limitations has passed. Of course, that doesn’t mean they weren’t put in a really compromising and unethical position in the first place. The recording between WL and Sal Benoit might be the best thing (at least that I’ve seen) to hear WL admitting to using church funds to “Loan” to his business, which apparently is illegal given it’s a non profit corporation lending money to an overseas unincorporated “for profit” group. Someone else will have to explain the legalities of it but common sense says- don’t use church funds for your personal business, loan or not! Not to mention him asking saints to invest- it’s all there...

As far as the ones here for the local churches, I’ve wondered their motives too. It seems with all the info, the bubble would have burst by now. Everyone is different though and has their own way of dealing with things...

[OhLordJesus]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Gotcha, I wasn’t trying to imply your mind or intentions weren’t in the right place. I’m relatively new on here and am coming from a place of seeing both sides, being in the LC most of my life.

I know John Ingalls account was recommended- that’s a good one. Also, if “evidence” is what you’re looking for, I would start with the recording of WL and Sal Benoit (just google those two names and it should come up).

There’s also a diagram of the Daystar “set up” that explains the conversation. Lmk if u can’t find from a google search and I’ll get u the links!

As far as I know, it didn’t get reported to the authorities and everyone involved (including those just following Bro. Lee’s orders) weren’t found out by law enforcement, and luckily for them- the statute of limitations has passed. Of course, that doesn’t mean they weren’t put in a really compromising and unethical position in the first place. The recording between WL and Sal Benoit might be the best thing (at least that I’ve seen) to hear WL admitting to using church funds to “Loan” to his business, which apparently is illegal given it’s a non profit corporation lending money to an overseas unincorporated “for profit” group. Someone else will have to explain the legalities of it but common sense says- don’t use church funds for your personal business, loan or not! Not to mention him asking saints to invest- it’s all there...

As far as the ones here for the local churches, I’ve wondered their motives too. It seems with all the info, the bubble would have burst by now. Everyone is different though and has their own way of dealing with things...

Thanks Kumbaya, I read the Speaking the Truth in Love and I've listened to the recording of WL and Sal. It is quite a serious matter to use the fund in non-profit organization for businesses. It must be reported.