Whistleblower

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

Post the evidence of the rape you allege. Specifically. I do NOT know it’s happening.

Drake, this is not a court of law. I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

Even if somebody had some sort of evidence of rape, I would not allow it to be posted here on the open forum. Same goes for any kind of sexual assault or sexually deviant behavior. In many of these cases, the devil is literally in the details, and why should we give him place to do more harm to the victims than has already been perpetrated upon them?

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Drake, this is not a court of law. I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

Even if somebody had some sort of evidence of rape, I would not allow it to be posted here on the open forum. Same goes for any kind of sexual assault or sexually deviant behavior. In many of these cases, the devil is literally in the details, and why should we give him place to do more harm to the victims than has already been perpetrated upon them?

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.
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UntoHim,

This is not a court of law, but it is the court of public opinion. The standard is lower here, so people make accusations of crimes committed, in this case rape, without accountability and without evidence. However, we are a christian forum. So the standard should be higher than a civil court. Yet, it is not.

When a crime is committed (sadly when a christian cannot follow the Spirit's leading and casts off all basic christian restraint) then the civil authorities need to be brought in.

Forum members are taking the liberties of making unproven accusations and slandering with a broad brush the Lord's Recovery. That is irresponsible at best. If a crime was committed then someone should call the cops instead of the pathetic slandering going in here. Don't try to convince us this venue is to bring to light what's really going on.... rather, it obfuscates what is really going on with innuendo and subterfuge. Sorry UntoHim, this venue is not a high road.

Therefore, Nell's accusations of rape, a clear crime, being practiced throughout the Lord's Recovery are without proof or substantiation and, in my opinion, are slanderous, a different kind of crime but a crime nonetheless.

Drake

[Drake]

Post #232 from Nell: "As much as you may not want to hear it, sexual violence is rampant in society today. Nee and Lee both laid the groundwork in the Local Churches by their failures to to deal with this terrible sin in the Local Churches. According to testimonies, it continues today because no one stands up and speaks"

Nell,

This is a slanderous, and some may consider it libelous, statement. You are accusing the Lord's Recovery of sexual violence, including rape. The so-called evidence you have presented thus far does not meet even the basic requirement in a court of law.

Though I have said several times that I support your call to action to report crimes when they are committed, I do not support your continued slanderous unproven innuendo of sexual crimes being committed in the Lord's Recovery. That is way over the line, Nell. Several lines actually both christian and civil.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Post #232 from Nell: "As much as you may not want to hear it, sexual violence is rampant in society today. Nee and Lee both laid the groundwork in the Local Churches by their failures to to deal with this terrible sin in the Local Churches. According to testimonies, it continues today because no one stands up and speaks"

Nell,

This is a slanderous, and some may consider it libelous, statement. You are accusing the Lord's Recovery of sexual violence, including rape. The so-called evidence you have presented thus far does not meet even the basic requirement in a court of law.

Though I have said several times that I support your call to action to report crimes when they are committed, I do not support your continued slanderous unproven innuendo of sexual crimes being committed in the Lord's Recovery. That is way over the line, Nell. Several lines actually both christian and civil.

Drake

Drake, don't be so lawsuit "trigger-happy." Perhaps it's time for you to stand down and reconsider your history.

The documented evidence of credible eye witnesses supports Nell's comments here.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, don't be so lawsuit "trigger-happy." Perhaps it's time for you to stand down and reconsider your history.
The documented evidence of credible eye witnesses supports Nell's comments here.

Ohio,

Nell's accusations of systemic sexual abuse crimes, including rape, has not been substantiated by Nell's so-called "evidence".

That is also a crime..... even on the internet.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake,

You're the one who keeps bringing up rape. I suspect that you have used the word twice as much as anyone else. Yet you have nothing to say about the many cases of sexual abuse being committed. Methinks you may want to pull that phone pole out of your own eye before worrying so much about the toothpick in someone else's.

The crux of the issue, as it is with most issues within the Local Church of Witness Lee, is Witness Lee himself. He was decidedly hardened to the concerns and needs of women/sisters. While he did have the legitimate built in excuse of being a product of ancient Chinese/Asian culture, where women were treated as less than second class citizens, he brought this misogynistic dynamic to whole new heights (or lows as it were) in the LC movement. While wistleblowing in general was highly discouraged, it was/is especially taboo for girls and women to report abuse perpetrated upon them. This became all the more of an extreme dilemma when it was a person of trust.

Ok, let's all wave our magic wands and POOF - the term rape was never brought up - THERE! Happy now? Now let's get real about the abuses that have been perpetrated against girls/women/sisters in the Local Church - Past, present and the abject danger of it happening in the future. Even modern secular society is taking action in the protecting of girls and women (finally), how much more of a responsibility for those who would consider themselves the household of God?
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[Drake]

UntoHim,

No, I am not happy. Three reasons.

1) if a crime is being committed and no one is calling the cops, then rather than do the right thing the crime is simply serving as a platform to advance some personal or social agenda. Victims are getting no help so it is just pretense that a thread like this is for the sake of victims.

2) There is no magic wand to make anything just go away... that is a drawback in a court of public opinion. Accusations, whether true or false, do their damage regardless. That is why there are laws against slander and libel. In my opinion, you cannot wholesale accuse a person or a group of criminal activity even anon in a public forum. You can get away with a lot in a public forum but there are limits.

Lastly, I find unsettling the degree that Christians will slander other believers and accuse them of crimes for what appears to be personal animosity and long standing offenses.

But, let’s accept your magic. I’ll stand down... unless others bring it back up.

Drake

[Steel]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

And there it is.

So, Unto him, being someone who met with teh Local Church... You were guilty of the past "...sexual immorality..." that was in the Local Church and "...has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret."..." in the Local Church... As Nell says?

According to Nells brush... Everyone associated with the Local Church (which includes Nell)... Past and present... Is guilty of "...sexual immorality..." . . . So are you agreeing with her?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.

I find it very strange that this has been spoken about on public forums and that the police have not become involved. Why haven't any of those who know about this firsthand reported it? . . . Isn't doing this exactly what "...whistleblowing..." is all about.