Whistleblower

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Post #232 from Nell: "As much as you may not want to hear it, sexual violence is rampant in society today. Nee and Lee both laid the groundwork in the Local Churches by their failures to to deal with this terrible sin in the Local Churches. According to testimonies, it continues today because no one stands up and speaks"

Nell,

This is a slanderous, and some may consider it libelous, statement. You are accusing the Lord's Recovery of sexual violence, including rape. The so-called evidence you have presented thus far does not meet even the basic requirement in a court of law.

Though I have said several times that I support your call to action to report crimes when they are committed, I do not support your continued slanderous unproven innuendo of sexual crimes being committed in the Lord's Recovery. That is way over the line, Nell. Several lines actually both christian and civil.

Drake

Drake, don't be so lawsuit "trigger-happy." Perhaps it's time for you to stand down and reconsider your history.

The documented evidence of credible eye witnesses supports Nell's comments here.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, don't be so lawsuit "trigger-happy." Perhaps it's time for you to stand down and reconsider your history.
The documented evidence of credible eye witnesses supports Nell's comments here.

Ohio,

Nell's accusations of systemic sexual abuse crimes, including rape, has not been substantiated by Nell's so-called "evidence".

That is also a crime..... even on the internet.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake,

You're the one who keeps bringing up rape. I suspect that you have used the word twice as much as anyone else. Yet you have nothing to say about the many cases of sexual abuse being committed. Methinks you may want to pull that phone pole out of your own eye before worrying so much about the toothpick in someone else's.

The crux of the issue, as it is with most issues within the Local Church of Witness Lee, is Witness Lee himself. He was decidedly hardened to the concerns and needs of women/sisters. While he did have the legitimate built in excuse of being a product of ancient Chinese/Asian culture, where women were treated as less than second class citizens, he brought this misogynistic dynamic to whole new heights (or lows as it were) in the LC movement. While wistleblowing in general was highly discouraged, it was/is especially taboo for girls and women to report abuse perpetrated upon them. This became all the more of an extreme dilemma when it was a person of trust.

Ok, let's all wave our magic wands and POOF - the term rape was never brought up - THERE! Happy now? Now let's get real about the abuses that have been perpetrated against girls/women/sisters in the Local Church - Past, present and the abject danger of it happening in the future. Even modern secular society is taking action in the protecting of girls and women (finally), how much more of a responsibility for those who would consider themselves the household of God?
-

[Drake]

UntoHim,

No, I am not happy. Three reasons.

1) if a crime is being committed and no one is calling the cops, then rather than do the right thing the crime is simply serving as a platform to advance some personal or social agenda. Victims are getting no help so it is just pretense that a thread like this is for the sake of victims.

2) There is no magic wand to make anything just go away... that is a drawback in a court of public opinion. Accusations, whether true or false, do their damage regardless. That is why there are laws against slander and libel. In my opinion, you cannot wholesale accuse a person or a group of criminal activity even anon in a public forum. You can get away with a lot in a public forum but there are limits.

Lastly, I find unsettling the degree that Christians will slander other believers and accuse them of crimes for what appears to be personal animosity and long standing offenses.

But, let’s accept your magic. I’ll stand down... unless others bring it back up.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake,
Actually I was just joshin you about making you happy my man. You wouldn't be happy until any and all critics, former members and wistleblowers were silenced, and the Local Church could go back to those wonderful days of that glorious church life of the 60s & 70s. You know...where everyone was a "Witness Lee tape recorder", pumped their fists, shouted Amen! Marched on Moody Church with "down with Christianity!" placards....all the while sweeping the abuse of girls/women/sisters under that vast Local Church rug.

Calling the cops you say? Who would dare call the cops when just asking Witness Lee to contain his sexual predator son got you "quarantined", and your children called "of the devil" by Local Church kids who used to be their friends? How is anyone supposed to exercise any kind of moral or biblical discipline when Witness Lee tells Local Church elders to sweep gross sexual sin by another elder under the rug, and tell them to lie about it?

Again, you are straining the gnat of secular legal definitions and expecting us to swallow the big, fat camel of sexual abuse against innocent girls and women.

All this being said....I'll stand down too.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Lastly, I find unsettling the degree that Christians will slander other believers and accuse them of crimes for what appears to be personal animosity and long standing offenses.

Drake,

I find these kinds of sayings by LSMers just incredulous considering how badly they have spoken about other Christians for decades. LSMers are equal opportunity condemners -- they go after both insiders and outsiders alike.

Do you have any idea how many guests have gone to LC meetings and have never returned just because they were put off by the scathing criticisms of other Christians?

[Indiana]

Email from 2006


Steve:

I got saved into the church in Atlanta in February of 1974. I moved to.
Boston area from 1977 thru 1979 with the young people from the southeast
and all over the country. I married a sister from Atlanta who also moved to
Massachusetts from Georgia. We got married in May 1979 and shortly after
moved back to Atlanta to be in the church there.

We moved to Knoxville TN in 1984 as did other saints to start up a church
life there. In early 1985 the gospel team visited Knoxville. While they
were there I got the burden to join them. My wife is a nurse and worked
full time so that I could do it. In February of 1987 my wife and I both
participated in the full time training in Taipei. We left in August of 1987
to help with new ones in Orange County that got saved during the door
knocking training in summer of ‘87. After taking care of personal matters
we came back to Orange County in Early September of 1987. We visited the
new ones at night and took part in the training during the day. The problem
was that it only lasted for a couple of weeks. After that we were doing
full time day labor for Philip and the ministry office during the day and
most of the evenings. Some evenings were open to visit the new ones.

My wife’s and my experience in Taipei was glorious. But our experience in
Orange County was far from that. We got to see Phillip in action and how
people listened to him and followed him around much the same as teeny
boppers followed rock stars. My wife and I would ask each other what and
the heck is this? In November we decided we had to go back to work and not
be full time any more. A couple in Irvine was gracious enough to let us
live at their house while we were searching for work. We wanted to stay in
the area, so that we could still help with the new ones.

We lived in the Southeast when most things happened there, and we lived in
Orange County when things were happening there. It was about the same time
the Jim and Tammy Bakker thing was going down. I remember telling my wife
here we are in the middle of something (working with the full-timers in
Taipei and also with the ones in Orange County) and look how pure it is.
That was in September when we first came to Orange County. Little did we
know we'd soon learn it was just as corrupt if not more corrupt than the
Jim and Tammy scandal. By late October we knew something was "wicked
wrong" as they'd say in the Northeast. The things that bothered us were
many but for time sake I'll mention just the ones that stand out in no
specific order:

1. Philip’s meeting with the fulltimers regarding the upcoming Thanksgiving
conference planned by the elders from the various churches.

2. Titus Chu's repentance to the fulltimers to show his support for the
office and Philip just before Witness Lee came back from Taipei.

3. Benson Phillips meeting with the fulltimers for the purpose of open
fellowship.

4. Remodeling a large room of the LSM to do the translation work for the
recovery version of the New Testament.

5. Seeing Philip in action.

6. Witness Lee's inaction when it came to addressing the problems.

7. Vindication with a capital "V".

8. The tearing down of the character of brothers publically that had true
concerns similar to yours.

9. The analyzation of every item said or written by ones with concerns,
problems or genuinely different opinions.

10. The we are always right in every case attitude.

There are so many it would take hours or days to list them all. I'll
briefly cover these ten points as succinctly as I can.


1. We, the fulltimers, were doing manual labor for Philip for at least 30
days. During this time some of us had minimal time if any to spend with the
new believers. Yet Philip ranted and raved in the meeting that the new
ones would die if we didn't spend that weekend with them [and not attend the conference__ED] They're not going to die while we're doing his labor, yet they will die if we invite them to a conference with lots of other believers and new ones. Give me a break. You don't have to get rid of all common sense to be one with the ministry or
ministry office. That's absurd to think you have to do that. For some
reason Philip didn't want the conference to happen.

{Insertion} John Ingalls: The Thanksgiving weekend was coming up, and there was to be a young people’s conference in the mountains. This was brought up for fellowship, and the question arose concerning who should go to lead the young people.



We learned then that one of the trainers from Taiwan had already been encouraged through those serving in the LSM office to come, and in fact he was preparing to come. Most all of the brothers felt strongly and expressed clearly their disagreement with that arrangement, based upon the damage wrought by the high school training in Irving, Texas, in which this particular trainer had a prominent role. The elders asked two brothers among them to telephone this trainer in Taiwan to inform him of the brothers’ feeling that someone else should lead the young people in the coming conference. They did so immediately. It was indeed a shock to the brother in Taiwan. It also was a blow to Philip Lee, who presumed to be directing these affairs. (Speaking the Truth in Love, J.I.)

2. I saw Titus Chu in Taipei walking down the street. When I first saw him
I did a double take because I couldn't remember who he was. I knew he was.
He also did a double take acting like a kid with his hand caught in the
cookie jar. When I did remember that it was Titus I took a mental note of
his reaction because I thought that it was peculiar. Later I found out that
he was conducting some kind of training for young ones in the church in
Taipei without Philip's or Witness Lee's knowledge. He was a brother who
would play both ends against the middle. He would tell John Ingalls he
stands with him and tell Witness Lee that he stands with him. He once told
some of his fulltimers that he sends ones to the training in Anaheim as a
token to show his support for Witness Lee. He would say that WL is getting
old and there's no need to give him extra worries. Titus knows exactly what
Philip's like and would no more follow him than the man in the moon.
Notice that they (churches under Titus's leadership) don't and won't
support the latest law suit.

3. Coming back to the Philip's meeting with the fulltimers, Benson was
sitting right next to Philip while he was basically going ballistic. He
did nothing to stop him and not only so, he supported him. I have no more
respect for this man. He has given up every ounce of integrity that he has
to follow a man…. Back when he met with the couples at a
restaurant on Ball Road nobody brought up this meeting or what went on with
Philip. While walking back to the meeting hall my wife and I made it a
point to confront Benson about this meeting. My wife said to him, "when do you say
enough is enough as far as the oneness goes", in other words how much can
one take and follow blindly before common sense takes over? He couldn't
come up with an answer. I said "let me get this right. When it comes to the
ministry the spiritual side, that's Witness Lee. When it comes to the
practical side, the business side of it that's Philip Lee. Am I being too
narrow to say that Philip had no business sharing anything let alone what
he shared and the manner in which he did it?" Benson's response was a
question. Did you get any life or light in anything that he shared? He
couldn't give my wife or me an answer when it was going on yet he had all
of the answers by the time of “The Fermentation of The Present
Rebellion” book. To me this is terrible. Today I would ask him to his face
how he could say things about John and his motives and not look at himself.
He knew and still knows what type of person Philip was and still is. What
it boils down to is Benson thinks it's more important to follow a man than
it is to follow God.

4. Brothers from the Bay area came down on several weekends to remodel a
portion of the LSM for the translation work. Some fulltimers including me
also helped. I laid the carpet for the room. When it was barely finished
Philip told his dad some lies about John Ingalls and the work was moved to Irving, Texas. All of the work for naught. The room was given to Dan Towle for the fulltimers.

5. Seeing Philip in action. From my few encounters with the man I can
tell he doesn't have a spiritual bone in his body. If he was a manager of
any real company he would have been sued for harassment and/embezzling and
would probably be doing some hard time in jail. And to think his holy dad
cared more about this son than he did for the church.

6., 7. and 8. I called Witness Lee brother V for vindication. I called
Philip brother F. Anyone who has a contrary opinion to his is the devil
and Lee would cut him down and tell lies about their very character. What about
him? How could he let his sons do so many terrible things to the churches
and the work for decades. How could he tear down honest sincere people like
John Ingalls and say or do nothing about Philip. If he lived his man becoming God
teaching, why is God condoning evil acts and people and being slanderous towards genuine Christian brothers and sisters? Jesus never vindicated himself while he was on the earth. Rather, He died on the cross.


Lee says he was continuing in the steps of Watchman Nee and that he was so
one with this brother. Yet Watchman being accused of living with a woman
out of wedlock let the brothers excommunicate him from the church without
trying to vindicate himself. The woman turned out to be his mother. Lee on
the other hand vindicated himself by tearing down the brothers that had
true genuine concerns by saying half truths, exaggerations and outright
lies about brothers in public. Not only that he held elders meetings where
ones would stand up publicly and tell gross lies about brothers like Bill
Mallon, John So, Joseph Fung and John Ingalls. Whosoever could tell the
tallest tale would have his ear. The elders in Anaheim through much
prayer, much waiting and much discernment excommunicated Philip. To say
it wasn't done hastily is a gross understatement. A brother was so mad at
Philip for what he did to his wife that he got a gun and was making plans
to kill Philip. It went to that extreme before something was done. Then
several years after the elders resigned, Lee strong-arms the new elders from the
church in Anaheim and tells them to write a letter to Philip, and they did write
a letter, welcoming him back. More than a year later Philip complained that the letter wasn't signed so all of the brothers signed a copy of the letter and sent it to Philip, apologizing to him for nor signing it. This is God's will? This is a man that is 99% transformed? (WL) This is disgusting is what it is.

9. In the Fermentation book, the writers went through John's 16 Points
analyzing point by point John's motives as well as every word to find fault
or error. If they took a look in the mirror and did the same to themselves
they wouldn't be able to write anything if they had a conscience.

10. You are not going to get an honest answer from people like this. Why do
you even bother? Do you really think they care? If they did care or do care
now why haven't they apologized long ago? They can't and don't because they
are always right. They believe if WL said it that's as good as God saying
it. They are infallible like the Pope when it comes to matters such as
these....

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you have any idea how many guests have gone to LC meetings and have never returned just because they were put off by the scathing criticisms of other Christians?

It's been my concern too Ohio.
Though it's generally very few who use the prophesying meeting for such speaking, elders feel no need to do anything about it. At least that was the case in my locality.
Someone could say it happens in other Christian assemblies. Various assemblies I've met with or visited, that has not been the case.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

No, I am not happy. Three reasons...Lastly, I find unsettling the degree that Christians will slander other believers and accuse them of crimes for what appears to be personal animosity and long standing offenses.Drake

What really stood out to me by this post of yours is this expression "long standing offenses". It has been my impression that many within the leadership of the Local Churches and LSM feel that there is some kind of expiration date on offenses. My understanding is that you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven. You don't just sweep them under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago".

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What really stood out to me by this post of yours is this expression "long standing offenses". It has been my impression that many within the leadership of the Local Churches and LSM feel that there is some kind of expiration date on offenses. My understanding is that you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven. You don't just sweep them under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago".

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age. If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand. Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age. If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand. Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

That's your opinion.

The Lord may want the brother to continue life long seeking reconciliation.

One day LSM will have to answer to the Lord for rejecting decades of appeals for repentance and reconciliation.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age. If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand. Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH. This forum clearly appeals to the church and in fact IS the church.

Matt. 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Did Lee hear the brothers? Did he hear the church? There is no expiration date to "tell it to the church".

Rather, 1 Timothy 5:19-22
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

When a sinning brother refuse to hear the church, your responsibility for reconciliation is over. A heathen or publican needs the gospel. However, the church's responsibility to "hear" did not end. The church should remain in fear of this sinning brother.

Additionally:
1 Corinthians 5:1-5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Originally Posted by Drake

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age.

Actually... If a born again believer in Christ Jesus has fallen into holding to offended feelings... Then this one needs to... FIRST... Turn to the Lord by turning to their regenerated spirit... Then... Abiding in the Lord by abiding in their regenerated spirit... They... Following the Lord... Do what it is the Lord leads.

This is not a matter of "...right or worng..."... But one of living in, and living out the life of Christ. . . . When we as born again believers place our reasoning of what scripture says before the actual leading of the Lord... Then we are simply entering into the way that leads to folly religion.

And I experienced, and spoke against, this very thing at yesterday's morning Lord's Day meeting of the saints in the district I meet in.

Originally Posted by Drake

If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand.

And right there in your above speaking we can see the folly of religious thinking being exposed... My brother, Drake... Nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand." . . . Believers in Him simply need to be those that express this reality... Meaning... Express that nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand."

And we can only express this reality when we believe this reality... And any believer in Christ who thinks to themselves that "... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand..." is exposing that they are not holding to this reality... Exposing that they do not hold to the reality that there is nothing that is not already in "...the Lords righteous and capable hand...".

And this is why believers in Christ continue on in their offended feelings/offences... They simply are not holding to Christ.

Originally Posted by Drake

Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

Absolutely... As can be any type of speaking that comes out of our old fallen natural man... And to do so day in day out is just a normal expression of those abiding in and expressing their fallen natural man.

Originally Posted by Drake

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

And what are you... Right?

Romans 14:1... "Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations."

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What really stood out to me by this post of yours is this expression "long standing offenses". It has been my impression that many within the leadership of the Local Churches and LSM feel that there is some kind of expiration date on offenses. My understanding is that you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven...

Now hold on a second here...

The Lord's death on the cross was/is, according to scripture, just that... Forgiveness that was given before anyone who had been forgiven had repented... The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world... Which was before humanity sinned... Are you saying that before you were forgiven by God you had to repent of your offences? . . . I hope that's not what you are saying.

Forgiving someone should take place immediately upon our (the one who has suffered the offence) turning to the Lord regarding the related matter... How else can we turn to the Lord out of a pure heart? . . . Or does scripture tell us that we can turn to the Lord even as we hold to offended feelings? . . . Surely it doesn't. . . . It is not a matter of "...you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven..." . . . It is a matter of to be able to enter into the forgiveness that has already been given... You need to repent. . . . Not repenting prevents you from receiving what blessing is already there for you.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You don't just sweep them under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago".

It is not a matter of sweeping or not sweeping "...under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago"... Which smacks of fallen natural man reasonings... It is a matter of abiding in the Lord, and expressing the Lord... The matter regarding Phillip Lee... WAS... a long time ago... Check any calendar... Thirty years is a long time ago... Thirty years is pretty much a generation (or longer)... People have been born and are now 30 years old, and this matter is still being discussed... And worse... People are still holding to their offended feelings regarding it... How the Lord must mourn this.

The above made clear... The Lord is obviously allowing this matter to be held to and discussed by some... As He could easily shut it down if He so desired... So what should really be our consideration is, "Lord, what is it that you are after that you have allowed this matter not to die?"

Perhaps the Lord would remind us of this scripture...

John 9:1-3... "And as He passed by, He saw man blind from birth... And His disciples asked Him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?... Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned nor his parents, but he was born so, that the works of God might be manifested in him."