Boxjobox on modalism

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Yes, Ohio, I do constantly reinforce this position, because it has been lost by the prevailing propaganda of triunism to the point that it is ignored. That gospel that Peter tells Cornelius concerning Jesus- that God was WITH Jesus: Peter was present during most of Jesus' ministry. Peter saw the transfiguration! Jesus, late in his ministry, asks who do men say that I am? No one says You are God, but Peter says You are the Christ, the son of THE living God. Jesus says it is upon this rock I will build my church. Your ( the collective your, I'm not just singling you out) constantly harping about Jesus being God has warped the message of the scripture and the gospel, and the understanding of the entire Christian faith, and the bringing about of the church. Paul says the oneness of the believers for the building of the church is predicated on acknowledging One God, the Father. Are you concerned about my opinion or Paul's? Seems like your concern is more related to a trinity god.

Read through 1st Timothy where Paul speaks of "manifest" and look at what Paul is telling us about God- the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the ONLY wise God, and about Jesus. I mean Paul plainly says One God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus- how plain does it need to be spoken? At what point in the scripture do you see the apostles running around telling everyone that Jesus is God? When did this become the gospel? I know it sounds low and demeaning of me not to follow the Jesus is God, triune god thing, but I see no outcome of such teaching in the scriptures. I do see an evolution of this that resulted in 4th century dogmas, and I do see a corruption of the truth and thus the church as a result of it.

If Jesus is not God what is He? When was His genesis? How could He create all things if He was not God? How could He know our hearts if He is not God. (Thousands more questions like this could be asked.)

But please respond to these.

[Trapped]

And if Jesus was not God, but was only a man, how could his death atone for all of mankind? If he was man then his death could only substitute for one other person's death. It seems to me that it's precisely that he is God (or God-kind, or divine, or eternal, or whatever doesn't make you shiver) that his death took care of everyone. Yes, he was a man, but he wasn't only a man, or else his death would have been useless.

The bible says eternal life is not only to know God the Father also but our Lord Jesus Christ. Let's talk about the latter one a bit then. Don't keep repeating that one phrase to us. We can read. We understand. We agree. We'd like to talk about a few other phrases. We'd like to talk about some implications. This is not an argument, at least not on my part. This is an interested conversation. Engage with us, please!

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Trapped

And if Jesus was not God, but was only a man, how could his death atone for all of mankind? If he was man then his death could only substitute for one other person's death. It seems to me that it's precisely that he is God (or God-kind, or divine, or eternal, or whatever doesn't make you shiver) that his death took care of everyone. Yes, he was a man, but he wasn't only a man, or else his death would have been useless.

The bible says eternal life is not only to know God the Father also but our Lord Jesus Christ. Let's talk about the latter one a bit then. Don't keep repeating that one phrase to us. We can read. We understand. We agree. We'd like to talk about a few other phrases. We'd like to talk about some implications. This is not an argument, at least not on my part. This is an interested conversation. Engage with us, please!

I tend to think both you and Ohio would take a position based on your understanding of John 1 that God became flesh. This is probably too extreme to face, so it gets watered down to Jesus was fully God and fully man, so that somehow you can avoid contemplating God became flesh.

Trapped, you really misquoted, or left out the significant statement in John 17.3 Jesus does not just say eternal life is to know God The Father, but says to know you ( The Father) the only true God. The impact you are missing is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. These are not my words, but John wrote them quoting Jesus. I receive them, and I would hope you would too. They are extremely significant, because the whole scripture, and our understanding of scripture should be with this foundational thought. Jesus could have as easily said eternal life is to know the triune god- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit- if this was the case, I would be right there with the best of them praising the triune god. You would have heard this preached, taught, expanded, etc in clear incontrovertible terms. The church would have been based on this! Which seems to be the case of the church since the 4th century. I would tend to think both you and Ohio are steeped in a trinitarian view, and therefore ask so many questions based on your understanding of a Jesus is God belief. Here I am, this nasty guy quoting scripture that says opposite. I believe that Jesus is the Christ- which has most significant ramifications- this is taught and preached throughout the NT clearly. I believe Christ died for my sins as clearly taught by Paul in Romans- that righteousness man died for us unrighteous men. I believe that God raised him from the dead.. if you want to see what I feel about Christ’s position and greatness just read. Ephesians. Paul prays that we would see this glorious revelation of the power and working of God in raising Jesus and enthroning him. But in all of Ephesians, where is the Jesus is God teaching or at least statement? God accepts this man’s death as a redemption for me and all believers. When Jesus rose, he met Mary and said I go to my God and your God and my Father and your Father. Not an insignificant statement about God, Christ and us!

The questions both you and Ohio pose are endless and unanswerable for the most part because they are based on a trinitarian supposition, which is not scriptural.

I can only say again, read through Acts and see what is preached as the gospel.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I tend to think both you and Ohio would take a position based on your understanding of John 1 that God became flesh. This is probably too extreme to face, so it gets watered down to Jesus was fully God and fully man, so that somehow you can avoid contemplating God became flesh.

The questions both you and Ohio pose are endless and unanswerable for the most part because they are based on a trinitarian supposition, which is not scriptural.

I can only say again, read through Acts and see what is preached as the gospel.

What is too extreme to face?

Is that your response to legitimate questions? That they are "endless and unanswerable for the most part because they are based on a trinitarian supposition, which is not scriptural?" That's how you dodge the issue?

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What is too extreme to face?

Is that your response to legitimate questions? That they are "endless and unanswerable for the most part because they are based on a trinitarian supposition, which is not scriptural?" That's how you dodge the issue?

The extreme understanding would be that God became FLESH. The way around this by the triunes is that he is fully God and fully man, this splitting the person of Christ Jesus into two separate but coexisting, in some manner, being. Thus, saying God became FLESH can be rationalized. As I pointed out with the Cornelius gospel Peter told him For God was WITH him- a far cry from God BECAME FLESH, wouldn’t you agree? It’s why it’s hard to discuss this with the triunes because they dance back and forth using the Fully argument.

When all else fails it usually results in a Oh, God is too mysterious to understand statement, which who can argue with that? The real problem is not accepting the scripture of One God the Father and replacing it with trinitarian thought. Our faith becomes clearer and scriptural when we follow what Jesus and Paul told us about One God. And actually, calling God Father, and relating to God in this most humanly understanding is a major revelation in the scripture; it might be THE major revelation considering Revelations

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Engage with us, please!

If y'all want God to have died on the cross, have at it. But also, you have to accept that Mary was/is the mother of God ... that is, she gave birth to God. So God didn't exist until she did that. Go for it y'all. You won't be the first.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If Jesus is not God what is He? When was His genesis? How could He create all things if He was not God? How could He know our hearts if He is not God. (Thousands more questions like this could be asked.)

But please respond to these.

I’ll probably get slammed for this, but have you considered Satan, how he knows thoughts, hearts, lives in people, is the power of the air, that the whole world is under his control in some sort of way? Yet he is a created entity and NOT God. Please do not read more into this than as related to your heart question. Satan seems to know a lot more that we do about the cosmos, yet when questioning Jesus, after Jesus’ anointing aaaheeem, he says to Jesus if you are the Son of God, and Jesus answers how man should live by the word of God, that we should not tempt the Lord our God, and that we should worship the one true God. This was Jesus responses. Satan did not ask him if he were God, or some sort of triune question, which by the way, both would be a new and shocking revelation to every Jew!

Concerning what is he, I’ll enter into the 1 Cor15.45b debate. He was the last Adam, and now is a life giving spirit, how all of this appears is a large topic in the NT epistles and revelation, he is the resurrected man that is siting on the right hand of God, as the scripture prophesied - sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

Concerning creation, I think I responded to this before to you- all things were made by God through, in view of his master plan, idea, thought, logos. The creation and entities in the heavens all give God in the throne credit for creation. Actually, the creeds seem to account for God Almighty creating. I can’t reiterate this enough, that Paul beseeches us to keep the oneness by acknowledging the one God and Father through whom are all things and to whom are things. Most important principle to follow in appreciation all things God.

Modern Christianity seems to want to associate all the things of God with Christ, so the scriptures get turned on their end and prayers, and speaking and teaching which takes away the splendor of God our Father, and eliminates the greatness of God and His work by and trough and to Christ. If we would have spent our days in the LC under a ministry that Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus- much of this could have been recovered.

[Boxjobox]

Do you realize how hard it is to put together a cohesive response using an IPad

I can see why everyone for the most part just puts down one liners

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I’ll probably get slammed for this, but have you considered Satan, how he knows thoughts, hearts, lives in people, is the power of the air, that the whole world is under his control in some sort of way? Yet he is a created entity and NOT God. Please do not read more into this than as related to your heart question. Satan seems to know a lot more that we do about the cosmos, yet when questioning Jesus, after Jesus’ anointing aaaheeem, he says to Jesus if you are the Son of God, and Jesus answers how man should live by the word of God, that we should not tempt the Lord our God, and that we should worship the one true God. This was Jesus responses. Satan did not ask him if he were God, or some sort of triune question, which by the way, both would be a new and shocking revelation to every Jew!

Have you not read the account? After Satan thrice tempted Him in the wilderness (see Luke 4.1-13), Jesus answered and said to him, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." (v.12)

Pretty conclusive, eh?

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you not read the account? After Satan thrice tempted Him in the wilderness (see Luke 4.1-13), Jesus answered and said to him, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." (v.12)

Pretty conclusive, eh?

No Ohio, you are cutting a snippet and not getting what is going on: Satan tells Jesus to throw himself down because it is written that the angels would uphold him, to throw himself down would be to tempt to see if God would fulfill his word. It is not Satan tempting God, it is Satan trying to put Jesus in a position to tempt God. Jesus is telling that he is following the scripture.
Have you ever considered that there is no account of Jesus stubbing his toe or getting sick? God’s angels did a good job!

[Boxjobox]

Paul says he lives by the faith of the son of God- consider how great was the faith of Jesus in that he believed and went to the cross because he believed that God would raise him from the dead and enthroned him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

No Ohio, you are cutting a snippet and not getting what is going on: Satan tells Jesus to throw himself down because it is written that the angels would uphold him, to throw himself down would be to tempt to see if God would fulfill his word. It is not Satan tempting God, it is Satan trying to put Jesus in a position to tempt God. Jesus is telling that he is following the scripture.
Have you ever considered that there is no account of Jesus stubbing his toe or getting sick? God’s angels did a good job!

Serious?

No mention of Jesus getting His diapers changed either.

Angels took care of that too?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Serious?

No mention of Jesus getting His diapers changed either.

Angels took care of that too?

It doesn't trouble me that we don't hear about Jesus getting his diapers changed, or don't hear about him going to the 'bathroom.' He was human after all, and not built like a Ken doll. What I'd like to hear about is : what made him laugh? That would be telling. I wonder if he laughed when someone called him God ... or that he was the 2nd person of the trinity (I know, I know, the trinity wasn't invented yet)?

[Trapped]

BJB, how do you interpret John 1:18?

New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

New Living Translation
No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

English Standard Version
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Berean Study Bible
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

Berean Literal Bible
No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known.

New American Standard Bible
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I’ll probably get slammed for this, but have you considered Satan, how he knows thoughts, hearts, lives in people, is the power of the air, that the whole world is under his control in some sort of way? Yet he is a created entity and NOT God.

Satan does not know our thoughts. He does not live in people, except maybe entering one at a time like Judas. He is a limited being. He is not omnipresent. The world is under his control because he has legions of his cronies everywhere.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Satan does not know our thoughts. He does not live in people, except maybe entering one at a time like Judas. He is a limited being. He is not omnipresent. The world is under his control because he has legions of his cronies everywhere.

I would check with the Christians who seem to feel he is in our flesh, directs many thoughts, and all the world lies in this hand. So, really, if you think about it, Paul gets into what we were before salvation in Ephesians and talks quite plainly about the evil one in an overwhelming way. The fallen flesh of man is a large topic as well in the scripture. The influence of the evil one seems to be a lot more pervasive than one soul at a time!

My point being Jesus is the Christ, that overcame the world, and the evil one and was given by God all authority in heaven and earth. Given is the key word here. Paul prays that we see this

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I would check with the Christians who seem to feel he is in our flesh, directs many thoughts, and all the world lies in this hand. So, really, if you think about it, Paul gets into what we were before salvation in Ephesians and talks quite plainly about the evil one in an overwhelming way. The fallen flesh of man is a large topic as well in the scripture. The influence of the evil one seems to be a lot more pervasive than one soul at a time!

My point being Jesus is the Christ, that overcame the world, and the evil one and was given by God all authority in heaven and earth. Given is the key word here. Paul prays that we see this

I don't care if some Christians feel Satan is in our flesh. He is not.

Sin dwells in us. Satan doesn't.

Satan can influence our thoughts. But he doesn't know our thoughts.

All the world lies in his hand. But he's not everywhere in the world.

The fallen flesh is something different than "Satan living in people".

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't care if some Christians feel Satan is in our flesh. He is not.

Sin dwells in us. Satan doesn't.

Satan can influence our thoughts. But he doesn't know our thoughts.

All the world lies in his hand. But he's not everywhere in the world.

The fallen flesh is something different than "Satan living in people".

Trapped, I agree with you that Satan does not live in people. I am not really up on Satan things or think about this topic and don't know how the spirit world operates. James has some things to say as does Peter. Jesus said you are of your father the devil. I don't think Satan runs to someone in Moscow and then over to another in Iran and then over to Mayor De Blasio n NY ( sorry, I couldn't resist that one) I would think that knowing how to influence someone would involve knowing their thoughts.

Now that I think of it a little more- where do I come up with a picture of Jesus knowing everyone's thoughts? I don't seem to formalize a clear picture of that being the case from scripture. Jesus knowing all thoughts of all people at the same time would definitely be an interesting study, maybe Ohio could fill me in on that one. I suspect he is speaking from situational things he read about in the gospels

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Now that I think of it a little more- where do I come up with a picture of Jesus knowing everyone's thoughts? I don't seem to formalize a clear picture of that being the case from scripture. Jesus knowing all thoughts of all people at the same time would definitely be an interesting study, maybe Ohio could fill me in on that one. I suspect he is speaking from situational things he read about in the gospels

The only verse I've come across so far since this post is in John 2.

John 2:23-25
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Now, you may count this as "speaking from situational things in the gospels", I don't know. But it does seem to lend credence towards the thought that Jesus knows all people and what's in all people. If I come across anymore, I'll post them here.

Of course, there are times when it says "Jesus, knowing their thoughts" or something like that....when He's being questioned by the religious guys. So if He knows their thoughts, why wouldn't He know ours?

*shrug*