Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I’ve struggled a lot with the idea of so much deception being mixed in with so much good, and also with the abuse of power among leaders who claim to represent God, as we all here have experienced and observed.

Have you read brother John Ingalls' account titled Speaking the Truth in Love? John spoke up concerning all of these same issues, and he was accused of orchestrating a global conspiracy. Actually he was just trying to protect the church of God from unending abuses at LSM, specifically Witness Lee's profligate son Philip who regularly molested the volunteer staff. Btw, that should have been the LC #MeToo movement, yet WL used all of his power to deceive us, protecting his own degenerate kid and his own "pristine" reputation. In this regard WL was the same as old Eli the high priest. (Read the opening chapters of I Samuel)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you read brother John Ingalls' account titled Speaking the Truth in Love? John spoke up concerning all of these same issues, and he was accused of orchestrating a global conspiracy. Actually he was just trying to protect the church of God from unending abuses at LSM, specifically Witness Lee's profligate son Philip who regularly molested the volunteer staff. Btw, that should have been the LC #MeToo movement, yet WL used all of his power to deceive us, protecting his own degenerate kid and his own "pristine" reputation. In this regard WL was the same as old Eli the high priest. (Read the opening chapters of I Samuel)

Speaking the Truth in Love

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you read brother John Ingalls' account titled Speaking the Truth in Love? John spoke up concerning all of these same issues, and he was accused of orchestrating a global conspiracy. Actually he was just trying to protect the church of God from unending abuses at LSM, specifically Witness Lee's profligate son Philip who regularly molested the volunteer staff. Btw, that should have been the LC #MeToo movement, yet WL used all of his power to deceive us, protecting his own degenerate kid and his own "pristine" reputation. In this regard WL was the same as old Eli the high priest. (Read the opening chapters of I Samuel)

This seems like an axe to grind type of off topic story. Stuff like this may turn those who are questioning the LR away. Let’s stay on topic.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

This seems like an axe to grind type of off topic story. Stuff like this may turn those who are questioning the LR away. Let’s stay on topic.

Hardly. It addresses the abuse of power and the deceptions used by LC leaders. It is extremely important to address the character of those who claim to be Ministers of the Age on par with the original Apostles. If they knew the real events of LSM's history, every elder and every member would abandon their ties with LSM tomorrow and reject any thought of a "processed 4in1 God."

[aron]

I want to post a little more on the perfect law of freedom that James 1 mentions, and how it relates to our situations, including being stuck in a group of religious zealots who don't really care much about what the Bible says, unless they can shoehorn it into one of their pet causes.

One doesn't think much of "law" and "freedom" together. But the perfect law is different. Because of humanity's suffering under sin and death, the perfect law sets us free. Because of Jesus' obedience, including the sacrificial atoning death, we who obey him are set free from self, from anxiety, and even death. O death, where is your sting?

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Jesus taught that the children of the Kingdom are free. I believe that they are under the perfect law, to love God and love one another. Your situation isn't as bad as you think, if you only have a little courage and a little faith.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is extremely important to address the character of those who claim to be Ministers of the Age on par with the original Apostles.

The thread is on how to talk to church members about their beliefs, and what the Bible says about their doctrines, including but not limited to the Four-in-one God. Bad doctrine engenders bad behaviours, but the thread was on bad doctrines and how to address them if you are an LC member or have family/friends enmeshed in the thinking.

The Trinity I don't talk much about, because it seems to be a conceptual overlay. The only verse that directly supports the Trinity seems to be a forgery. I'm speaking of the so-called Johannine Comma in the Vulgate and KJV. It says, "The Three testify, and the Three are One". Seems like bad form if the only verse to support your thesis was a late insertion!

But I accept it as Christian Doctrine, because that's what history brought me. But a Three-in-One or Four-in-One probably doesn't affect my Christian walk unless I obsess on it in an unbalanced way.

My recommendation to all is to fortify oneself with the truth, as laid out in text. Where the text is uncertain, hold it, but carefully, not as a point of contention. Let me give an example. Jesus says that he will appear with in glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.

Luke 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Mark 8:30 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

So, in these verses I see what I call a 'proto-trinitarian formula', of the glory of the Son and the Father and the holy angels. But the angels are plural, ministering spirits, so how does this become the singular Holy Spirit? Or, how does it relate? We know that the singular capital 'h' capital 's' Holy Spirit [which is one] fills all things, including presumable the multitudinous holy angels. But beyond that I can't say. Yet my gospel confession isn't changed by what I don't know, and I don't get stumbled if other think this or that.

But if Watchman Nee was the Apostle of the Age, who was before him? Darby? Why did WN copy Jessie Penn-Lewis and not Darby in his 'Spiritual Man' if Darby was the preceding AotA? And who followed Paul? Timothy? I don't see it. And did James receive Paul as AotA in Jerusalem? Or was he 'rebellious'? Neither, clearly. And who was AotA, John Wesley or Jonathan Edwards, seeing as they both ministered separately? Or was one 'rebellious'? Hardly.

And how did the age change from the Age of Spiritual Giants when WL passed? That's what the Blendeds told us from the podium. What scripture supports a sequential string of singular AotA until the Last Spiritual Giant? There is no scriptural basis whatever.

I don't contend for ideas, but if someone else tries to impose theirs I'm ready to defend my space. I wasn't as a college student, and got ensnared by this group. So I share these few posts if any feel endangered by them. They can't touch you. You are free.

[GraceAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hardly. It addresses the abuse of power and the deceptions used by LC leaders. It is extremely important to address the character of those who claim to be Ministers of the Age on par with the original Apostles. If they knew the real events of LSM's history, every elder and every member would abandon their ties with LSM tomorrow and reject any thought of a "processed 4in1 God."

Yes, I've read Ingalls' account; it was very eye-opening.

To Zezima's concern about relevance, I might offer this thought (because yes, I agree that we should be careful about axe-grinding): I wonder if one way that leaders become deceived over time and then are willing and able to manipulate others, even when they truly believe they are serving the Lord, is because the ability to speak in complicated terms such as the ones referenced in the title of this thread becomes a smoke-screen. People are impressed and reassured by sophisticated language spoken authoritatively from the pulpit. Combine that with ignorance of past events such as what John Ingalls described and with a culture that discourages thinking for oneself and searching the Scripture and other expounders of it, and you get a deeply flawed yet effectively persuasive system.

I really like Nell's prayer and have been using it myself: Lord, don't let me be deceived. Aron sets a good example of looking carefully at the Scriptures and sticking to what's there.

[UntoHim]

This thread is wondering guys. Let's tighten it up a bit. Our new friend Bible-believer has asked a specific question:

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?
I asked questions, but no responses from other members or elders could solve my confusion.
Please help me on this matter.

Applicable Quote from Witness Lee:

Ultimately, the church is a group of people who are in union with the Triune God and are mingled with the Triune God. The Triune God and the church are four-in-one. Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the “four-in-one God.” These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body.
A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing p.203-204

Here are some helpful (I think) responses so far:

Originally Posted by Zezima

It’s not a trap, it’s healthy to compare a teaching to the Bible. It’s a trap not to do this.

Originally Posted by Trapped

1. What does Lee/ministry teach?
2. What does the Bible actually say? (or, does the Bible actually say that?)

Originally Posted by gr8ful

I was one who loved the theoretical theological explorations in W Lee's teachings. Really tickled my ear and the feeling of "WOW" gave me a buzz. When these things like 4-in-1 God were challenged, the only way they "worked" was to minimize the radicalness of the teaching by saying, "no, this doesn't mean..." or "well, in church history we find similar expressions from orthodox teachers, such as ...".

Originally Posted by Trapped

One thing that struck me about the excerpts was that they were chock full of Lee's specialized language - mingling, incorporation, God's economy, expansion, reproduction, corporate, processed, consummated. The Bible doesn't speak this way.
The Son and the Father are one and are in each other. But they are still a Son and a Father. The Son doesn't become the Father and the Father doesn't become the Son. As believers, we are in God and God is in us, but God does not become us and we do not become God. "Mingling" blurs the distinction between Creator and creation, and that's not something the Bible does.
Sorry, but Witness Lee or anyone may say whatever they want to say, but if Scripture doesn't also say it, they are wrong! To be one with God means you are one with God. You are you, and God is God, and you are one with Him. To be in God means you are in God. Neither of these things mean you are "part of a four-in-one God".

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. The body of Christ is his church composed of believers. Believers are human, not God. We believe in Him and have Him indwelled. But it never means we can be God.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Others can and have said this more clearly than I will be able to, but Lee taught contradictory things about God. He simultaneously taught that the three of the Trinity are distinct while also saying that they actually are each other.
The problem is not you, and the problem is not that you don't understand something that you should. The problem is that Lee was not a good Bible teacher, he had no one to correct him, and he taught lots of things wrong. This is one of them.
Where the Bible shows distinctions, Lee dragged them together and mushed them into one. He should not have done that.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Then just when one wouldn't think that things could get worse, Witness Lee taught that "Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one God'." This is rank heresy. Nowhere did the Lord Jesus or the Scripture writing apostles even faintly imply that the Body of Christ is to be considered part of, or equal to, the Trinity. This kind of nonsense springs directly from Lee's notion that "the believers become the reproduction, expansion, and physical continuation of the incarnate and incorporate Son of God" (as quoted by LSM spokesman Kerry Robichaux) Again, nowhere did the Lord Jesus or the Scripture writing apostles ever teach such a thing.

Originally Posted by aron

Where did Paul present us with God processed in His economy? If Paul didn't say this, then why should we? Zezima mentions eisegesis, or putting ideas on the text, that don't come from the text. "God was processed in His economy" is surely that. Nowhere did Paul write of an intensified Spirit, for example. Yet WL claimed it was a "crucial and interdependent step of His divine economy." The divine economy according to who? Not any that Paul referenced.

Originally Posted by Nell

Of course, all men and women who read the Bible and arrive at an interpretation are fallen. However, those of us who form an opinion from reading the Word do not believe we are God. We do not claim a place in the Godhead as #4. We do not claim to be the one and only church on the earth. We do not bully the membership into submission to our teachings and practices. In fact, we don't even have teachings and practices. We just read the Bible, as we are commanded to do, and are blessed by the Holy Spirit...or not.

-

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This thread is wondering guys. Let's tighten it up a bit. Our new friend Bible-believer has asked a specific question:

The question was, Is the processed, four-in-one God a sound doctrine? The answer from all corners was a "No." Not sure how much discussion that warrants.

A related question was, "How does one address such things in a supposed Bible study group that really isn't interested in open inquiry but becomes antagonistic if anyone tries?" That second question might benefit from some varied approaches, relating to experience, history, scripture, psychology, sociology and so forth. How, if at all, may one exercise open inquiry in the face of a high-control group?

[UntoHim]

aron and others.

Our friend thoughtfully and intentionally entitled the thread "Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?" And then ended with "Please help me on this matter". This warrants much, much more than a simple "no". After all, the "no" was a given. Our friend is looking for help. I took a few minutes and referred to the posts that I feel have headed us and him in the right direction. How bout we finish up on the main question before we head off into some of the other related questions?

Witness Lee got the doctrine of the Trinity wrong. He confused the Persons of the Trinity. He quite literally "confounded the Persons and divided the substance" The Trinity is one of the core, essential items of the Christian faith. Aside from the deity of Christ, and the death, resurrection and bodily ascension of Christ, nothing touches more upon the core and essential heart of the Christian faith, and the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hardly. It addresses the abuse of power and the deceptions used by LC leaders. It is extremely important to address the character of those who claim to be Ministers of the Age on par with the original Apostles.

Agreed.

If they knew the real events of LSM's history, every elder and every member would abandon their ties with LSM tomorrow and reject any thought of a "processed 4in1 God."

Ohio,

What I believe, and fear, is that the "elders" and many members DO know the real events of LSM history; Lee and Nee history. Many, such as you and I, lived through it to one extent or another. Yet many stay, possibly with the knowledge that "something is terribly wrong here".

To wit, it's shocking to me that in March, 2021 they continue to propagate the heresy that reading the Bible, is "dangerous and unbiblical". In fact, as we have learned the hard way, NOT reading the Bible is dangerous and unbiblical. This is even worse than the heresy of the "Processed, Four-in-One God". Both of which are Demonic and Devilish.

If the Devil, through LSM operatives, can bully you to stop reading the Bible and only read Lee/Nee (two fallen men), the Devil propagates deception of the highest (lowest) magnitude. The Devil nullifies the entire Bible and removes your liberty to hear the speaking of the Holy Spirit for yourself. Instead you rely on the Devil, through fallen men, for "revelation" which is, in fact, deception.

Of course, all men and women who read the Bible and arrive at an interpretation are fallen. However, those of us who form an opinion from reading the Word do not believe we are God. We do not claim a place in the Godhead as #4. We do not claim to be the one and only church on the earth. We do not bully the membership into submission to our teachings and practices. In fact, we don't even have teachings and practices. We just read the Bible, as we are commanded to do, and are blessed by the Holy Spirit...or not.

Going back to Post #3 on this topic:

See how subtle that is? LSM consistently places ideas into the text..a method of interpretation called: eisegesis, rather than drawing ideas out from the text, a method called exegesis. With this understanding of how to interpret the bible, many of the blocks that supported our faith in what the recovery was offering began to fall… And soon the entire tower went with it. The local ground of the church, us becoming God, the white horse being the gospel, culture not being in the bible, the book of James missing the mark, Etc...

Thanks Zezima for bringing this word "eisegesis" to our attention! It explains a lot.

If you read through the .pdf on Shepherding Words, with particular emphasis on the verses cited, you can see a textbook example of "eisegesis". These verses simply state what was done in a particular example, but DO NOT convey a "dangerous or unbiblical notion" or command to not read the Bible.

It seems that the LSM, et al, have taken the position much like the Catholic Church did in the mid-1500's in the days of Martin Luther. After Luther was "banished" and became a wanted man, the story continues:

During his stay in the Wartburg, Luther began work on what proved to be one of his foremost achievements—the translation of the New Testament into the German vernacular. This task was an obvious ramification of his insistence that the Bible alone is the source of Christian truth and his related belief that everyone is capable of understanding the biblical message. Luther’s translation profoundly affected the development of the written German language. The precedent he set was followed by other scholars, whose work made the Bible widely available in the vernacular and contributed significantly to the emergence of national languages.

Martin Luther and the New Testament

This battle has already been fought and won...a long time ago.

Nell

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Nell

Agreed.
To wit, it's shocking to me that in March, 2021 they continue to propagate the heresy that reading the Bible, is "dangerous and unbiblical". In fact, as we have learned the hard way, NOT reading the Bible is dangerous and unbiblical. This is even worse than the heresy of the "Processed, Four-in-One God". Both of which are Demonic and Devilish.
If the Devil, through LSM operatives, can bully you to stop reading the Bible and only read Lee/Nee (two fallen men), the Devil propagates deception of the highest (lowest) magnitude. The Devil nullifies the entire Bible and removes your liberty to hear the speaking of the Holy Spirit for yourself. Instead you rely on the Devil, through fallen men, for "revelation" which is, in fact, deception.

Indeed. My locality is having the "pursuing of Lee's collection" meetings. Some are selling Lee's collection. Members are being asked to participate in the meetings and prophesy. I haven't attended any of the meetings, for I don't want to repeat the teachings of Lee like a recorder, and if I say anything different from Lee's teaching I will be stopped. Like I said in my post, in the Bible study meetings, we were just read through Lee's remarks, and marveled at his teachings, and nothing else.

I don't think members in the Local churches have the true knowledge of the Bible. The majority rely on Lee's remarks without digesting the words.
The worse part is Lee said that we should not have opinions. The truth is that the local church is full of Lee's opinions and his opinions only.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

The worse part is Lee said that we should not have opinions. The truth is that the local church is full of Lee's opinions and his opinions only.

I agree with your views, but will comment elsewhere, as I don't want to sidetrack this thread.