The Four Horses - Revelation 6

[Nell]

White Horse - Conquering Power, gospel, Christ, Antichrist…
Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
Black Horse - Famine
Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

All have been on the scene since the beginning times, but do these rise to the level of apocalyptic? If so, wouldn’t “things” be different? That is, the 5th seal on the verge, or clearly opened?

It appears to me that opening a prophetic seal would be more of a no-doubter, at least to many believers, that something apocalyptic was underway…

Almost every believer I’ve had discussion with believes that we are in the end times and base their belief on the current world situation and US politics and government overreach leading the way.

The main example floating around is the vaccine mandate as a precursor to people being either deceived or conditioned to voluntarily accept what could turn out to be the mark of the beast.

Please understand that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I just want to watch and pray, as we are told to do. And to “look up”. Also, clearly, we’re not in Kansas anymore.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

White Horse - Conquering Power, gospel, Christ, Antichrist…
Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
Black Horse - Famine
Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

Reading Rev 6.8b, which kind of summarizes all 4 horses, it says, "And authority was given to them ... to kill ..." This may indicate that the White Horse is not positive in nature, though it seems highly doubtful that it would refer to an individual called the Antichrist. Perhaps evil leaders or generals?

Many Christians, however, view the rider of the White Horse positively. It directly follows the exaltation of the Lamb of God. The rider was crowned and went forth "conquering that he might conquer."

I suppose we'll never know for sure.

Perhaps Fanny Crosby's classic hymn was influenced by or has influenced others' thoughts:

1. Conquering now and still to conquer, rideth a King in His might;
Leading the host of all the faithful into the midst of the fight;
See them with courage advancing, clad in their brilliant array,
Shouting the Name of their Leader, hear them exultingly say:

Refrain:
Not to the strong is the battle, not to the swift is the race,
Yet to the true and the faithful vict’ry is promised thro' grace.

2. Conquering now and still to conquer, who is this wonderful King?
Whence are the armies which He leadeth, while of His glory they sing?
He is our Lord and Redeemer, Savior and Monarch divine;
They are the stars that forever bright in His kingdom shall shine.

3. Conquering now and still to conquer, Jesus, Thou Ruler of all,
Thrones and their scepters all shall perish, crowns and their splendor shall fall,
Yet shall the armies Thou leadest, faithful and true to the last,
Find in Thy mansions eternal rest, when their warfare is past.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

Almost every believer I’ve had discussion with believes that we are in the end times and base their belief on the current world situation and US politics and government overreach leading the way.

The main example floating around is the vaccine mandate as a precursor to people being either deceived or conditioned to voluntarily accept what could turn out to be the mark of the beast.

Please understand that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I just want to watch and pray, as we are told to do. And to “look up”. Also, clearly, we’re not in Kansas anymore.

Nell

In all the lead up in Revelation, I don't see anything that indicates there will be precursors or conditionings. I also do not see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception).

People thought social security numbers were the mark (a number, everyone has to comply), credit cards were the mark (numbers, everyone at this point needs one to function), and cell phones (numbers, follows you wherever you go, tracks your every thoughts, etc....). Now they think it's a vaccine. But that's not the mark either, or a precursor. They are fearmongering.

The way it is described in Revelation 13-14 seems like everyone will be fully aware of what is going on and makes an informed choice. You will know if you are receiving or denying the actual mark when you get it. Having the mark involves actual worship of the beast.....not "oops I didn't know what this was".

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes things that will/must happen, but regarding none of them does He say "and this is the end". He says "...but the end is still to come". I don't think we are as in the end times as people think. Beginnings of birth pangs maybe? No idea.

Also.....I too do not claim to know or be an expert. Just trying to see what the Word says about it.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.

Totally agree with you here.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.

Snarky--

Then there's hyperopia. Farsightedness. A common vision condition in which you can see distant objects clearly, but objects nearby may be blurry.

Perhaps you didn't read my post #26 before replying.

This is a forum. We get to introduce topics and discuss our opinions freely, within the Mission Statement and Rules of the forum. You don't have to participate in any topic. If you choose to participate, it would be appreciated if you would lose the attitude, read the posts presented, and reply accordingly. Try a little courtesy and respect in your replies, whether you actually respect any of us or not.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.

I think Australia is leading the way here, locking people up who don’t have “proper vax papers.” That trend seems to be rapidly spreading.

By your logic, all the prophetic warning signs in Revelations should be discarded as regularly occurring events. Climate change perhaps. Or just some minor anti-American sentiment.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

By your logic, all the prophetic warning signs in Revelations should be discarded as regularly occurring events. Climate change perhaps. Or just some minor anti-American sentiment.

Yes, I would argue that’s how we should view them. Revelation was written to a specific group at a specific time. John wasn’t warning the saints in 95 AD about a vaccine in 2020. Doesn’t mean the book doesn’t have lessons for us, but I’m hard pressed to think that when the USA experiences minor instability that it means the end times are now.

Witness Lee thinks that America is the last great empire that will usher in the end of the age. Lots of Christians in the recovery view that as the case, but it’s just not supported by verses and leads to idolatry. It’s not just limited to the LR, it’s a problem in the American church.

I hope this wasn’t snarky, I’m genuinely presenting an alternative view point to the idea that because America is struggling, it’s the end of the world.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Yes, I would argue that’s how we should view them. Revelation was written to a specific group at a specific time. John wasn’t warning the saints in 95 AD about a vaccine in 2020. Doesn’t mean the book doesn’t have lessons for us, but I’m hard pressed to think that when the USA experiences minor instability that it means the end times are now.

Witness Lee thinks that America is the last great empire that will usher in the end of the age. Lots of Christians in the recovery view that as the case, but it’s just not supported by verses and leads to idolatry. It’s not just limited to the LR, it’s a problem in the American church.

I hope this wasn’t snarky, I’m genuinely presenting an alternative view point to the idea that because America is struggling, it’s the end of the world.

Disregarding WL's world views (or the Blendeds,) there is a school of prophetic thought that all of Revelation was fulfilled in the 1st century. I don't happen to subscribe to that school.

I do think that the collapse of the USA is soon, and that collapse will signal the end of any freedoms which we now enjoy. I think what we are watching amounts to more than some "minor instability."

But back to the original discussion of the 1st Horseman of the Apocalypse, I admitted frankly that I am not sure what it represents.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In all the lead up in Revelation, I don't see anything that indicates there will be precursors or conditionings. I also do not see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception).

People thought social security numbers were the mark (a number, everyone has to comply), credit cards were the mark (numbers, everyone at this point needs one to function), and cell phones (numbers, follows you wherever you go, tracks your every thoughts, etc....). Now they think it's a vaccine. But that's not the mark either, or a precursor. They are fearmongering.

The way it is described in Revelation 13-14 seems like everyone will be fully aware of what is going on and makes an informed choice. You will know if you are receiving or denying the actual mark when you get it. Having the mark involves actual worship of the beast.....not "oops I didn't know what this was".

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes things that will/must happen, but regarding none of them does He say "and this is the end". He says "...but the end is still to come". I don't think we are as in the end times as people think. Beginnings of birth pangs maybe? No idea.

Also.....I too do not claim to know or be an expert. Just trying to see what the Word says about it.

Trapped

I had to laugh when I read your comment about “everybody made an informed choice.”

Recently I read the Gospel narratives about the birth of Jesus. “Everybody made an informed choice” to travel to their city of birth to register. It was an edict from the Caesar in Rome, enforced by the Roman army. Obviously all the people thought this was a great idea!

And how many at that time thought that “the time had arrived” for His first coming? 33 years later many still had no idea, and could care less, what just happened on that cross. But, no big deal, guys were dying on crosses every day. As they say, move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I had to laugh when I read your comment about “everybody made an informed choice.”

Recently I read the Gospel narratives about the birth of Jesus. “Everybody made an informed choice” to travel to their city of birth to register. It was an edict from the Caesar in Rome, enforced by the Roman army. Obviously all the people thought this was a great idea!

And how many at that time thought that “the time had arrived” for His first coming? 33 years later many still had no idea, and could care less, what just happened on that cross. But, no big deal, guys were dying on crosses every day. As they say, move along folks, nothing to see here.

I'm not sure what's funny about it.....my point is people will know it's the mark when it's the mark. It won't be a scenario of "Oh wait, darn it, that thing I just got, I thought I was signing up for a credit card, or protecting myself against a disease.....you mean to tell me that was actually the mark!?!? I had no idea! Oh no!"

And Revelation 14 shows some people will not get it. They will choose not to get it.

Informed choice doesn't mean it's not under duress. But you/we/they will know what's going on, it won't be conjecture, and will have a serious choice to make.

Trapped

[Timotheist]

… and the thread is already derailed into a different subject with people sniping at each other.

Good job

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

… and the thread is already derailed into a different subject with people sniping at each other.

Good job

Is that a snipe? I think that's a snipe! Why don't you get us back on track and avoid the snipe?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Is that a snipe? I think that's a snipe! Why don't you get us back on track and avoid the snipe?

Nell

I thought you got "sniped" when T rejected your positive identity of the 1st horse, i.e. the gospel. But you (and I) took it merely as another opinion attempting to understand prophecy about this thread topic.

I think "sniping" means that we refuse to consider alternate viewpoints, i.e. real discussion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm not sure what's funny about it.....my point is people will know it's the mark when it's the mark. It won't be a scenario of "Oh wait, darn it, that thing I just got, I thought I was signing up for a credit card, or protecting myself against a disease.....you mean to tell me that was actually the mark!?!? I had no idea! Oh no!"

And Revelation 14 shows some people will not get it. They will choose not to get it.

Informed choice doesn't mean it's not under duress. But you/we/they will know what's going on, it won't be conjecture, and will have a serious choice to make.

Trapped

I tend to differ here. The "mark" will be financial. Not having the mark will make one unable to buy or sell. The "mark of the beast" here will most assuredly be connected to internet computers. Those without the mark will be unable to buy, sell, work, move around freely, and be subject to imprisonment.

Apparently you consider that everyone makes carefully weighed decisions. That's hardly the case. I've never seen such a dishonest Press, which will promote the mark unceasingly and extol its virtues, while mocking the "anti-markers." People, including Christians, do stupid things just to go along. Many "sleep" with their hands on the remote, binging on some computer screen. I am regularly shocked at the lack of any wisdom or discernment even among Christians.

I have long felt that some of those who receive the "mark" will remove it somehow after waking from their "sleep," and many of those who initially reject the "mark," will succumb to pressures and eventually take it. Today's vax mandates are not the "mark," but surely are prepping us for it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I had to laugh when I read your comment about “everybody made an informed choice.”

Recently I read the Gospel narratives about the birth of Jesus. “Everybody made an informed choice” to travel to their city of birth to register. It was an edict from the Caesar in Rome, enforced by the Roman army. Obviously all the people thought this was a great idea!

And how many at that time thought that “the time had arrived” for His first coming? 33 years later many still had no idea, and could care less, what just happened on that cross. But, no big deal, guys were dying on crosses every day. As they say, move along folks, nothing to see here.

Ohio,

Here are some verses in Rev. 1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Those who choose to read and hear these prophetic words and keep the things written therein are blessed. That's a good thing. I'm not going to be discouraged from reading, regardless of what others' interpretations may be, for all we actually have are interpretations of the word along with the leading and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

When verses say things like "the time is at hand", a classic argument has been...yeah...that's what's been said for 2000 years. So people go to sleep. Here's another verse:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So, is it possible that these words in Revelation, and similar statements in other places, were spoken just a couple of "days" ago?

Yet another:
Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

My own understanding is just that. My own.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So, is it possible that these words in Revelation, and similar statements in other places, were spoken just a couple of "days" ago?

I think Christians mistakenly counted 2 "days" from the Lord's birth, and not from His death.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In all the lead up in Revelation, I don't see anything that indicates there will be precursors or conditionings.

Throuout the Bible there are scriptures on signs and "signs and wonders" of various types. I realize that this will not likely be acceptable to you as a comparison to your lack of "precursors or conditionings" in Revelation. However, just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there in one form or another. I believe there have been signs throuout history which are merciful warnings to us to "look up" and not be taken unaware.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

I also do not see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception).

Again, just because it's not clearly seen doesn't mean it can't happen or won't happen or is not a possibility.

People thought social security numbers were the mark (a number, everyone has to comply), credit cards were the mark (numbers, everyone at this point needs one to function), and cell phones (numbers, follows you wherever you go, tracks your every thoughts, etc....). Now they think it's a vaccine. But that's not the mark either, or a precursor. They are fearmongering.

Do you know that these items are in NO WAY a precursor to receiving the mark of the beast? Do you know for a fact that these cannot be used at some later date as the mark? Certainly we believe that SS#, credit cards, cell phones and the vaccine are not the mark, but can these items be usurped and used as the mark? Do you really know, scripturally, that a precursor to the mark of the beast or a sign is not there among us today?

There is such a thing as a "healthy fear" which is a counterpoint to what you call "fearmongering". We see in Luke 21:26 that the hearts of men fail them for fear.

The way it is described in Revelation 13-14 seems like everyone will be fully aware of what is going on and makes an informed choice. You will know if you are receiving or denying the actual mark when you get it. Having the mark involves actual worship of the beast.....not "oops I didn't know what this was".

Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
...
Rev. 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

"And he caused all ... to receive a mark..." "He" caused? Who caused? I believe this refers back to the dragon in v. 11.

If the beast "caused" all to receive a mark, that means men did not have informed consent, choosing freely and of a sound mind to receive the mark. It connotes that the beast made it happen, the beast caused all to receive a mark, without informed consent or consent of any kind.

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes things that will/must happen, but regarding none of them does He say "and this is the end". He says "...but the end is still to come". I don't think we are as in the end times as people think. Beginnings of birth pangs maybe? No idea.

Also.....I too do not claim to know or be an expert. Just trying to see what the Word says about it.

Trapped

The word has much more to say than in the Revelation. Matthew 24 and as we've seen some in Luke. Then Mark. And don't forget Daniel.

My favorite quote comes into play here "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know." Jesse Penn-Lewis

I don't know the truth of this matter, and it's not likely we can come to an accurate conclusion. When you say "I don't see anything" ... regarding some matter, that is not the time to form an opinion or reach a conclusion one way or another. My hope is that we can all remain neutral and keep on digging.

Nell

[Trapped]

Signs and wonders are different from what is, essentially, some kind of "pre-mark". These are two different things. The Bible says there will be things given as a sign. Things like fire from heaven that all can see. It does not indicate anything like.....things a lot like the mark but not actually the mark so people will be conditioned to getting the mark.

Saying "the Bible does not say xyz" is a legitimate observation.

Maybe I should have said it another way. "I don't see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception)" can also be flipped to say: "The Bible is pretty clear about first beasts and dragons and images and second beasts and the whole world following in wonder and everyone worshipping it (actual worship, not just "going along" with something) and fire from heaven as a sign that all can see, etc..." Things will be pretty crazy. Like, we ain't seen nothing yet, crazy.

Do I know that credit cards and SSN's and vax are in no way related? Well, Revelation says the mark is "the name of the beast or the number of it's name". That's it. It's the same mark (either its name or the number of its name) on everyone who complies. That doesn't line up with credit cards or SSNs or cell phone numbers. Vaccines are not taken on the forehead or on the right hand, so.......I don't know......kinda seems like not, eh? Per Ohio's point that the mark is financially related, I don't think the mark is a financial mark, unless the name of the beast is somehow financially related, but it will have an effect on what you can and can't do with your finances (buy/sell, etc).

Also, credit cards, SSNs, cell phone numbers, and even vaxxes are......not a common thing around the world. In the U.S. and wealthier countries yes, but in many other poor countries........no. Whatever it is will have to apply to all mankind.

My healthy fear is looking at what's happening, looking at what people are saying, and looking at what the Bible says will happen. If they don't match up, then it's fearmongering, because people aren't reading what the Bible says.

Regarding being "caused" to receive the mark, Revelation 13:8 indicates those who worship the beast are unbelievers......

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

.....and Revelation 14:9-12 sounds like genuine believers will not receive the mark or worship the beast (otherwise we've got genuine believers condemned to eternal destruction)....

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Those verses together are where I got that thought from. It seems like some don't worship the beast or get the mark. They choose not to.

When I say "I don't see anything", I can surely start to form an opinion or head towards a conclusion. And when I run across new information or understand old information differently, then I can adjust course. Opinions and conclusions can literally never be formed if we cannot do so until we know the truth of a matter because how can we ever be sure there is not some truth we don't know yet? We can only work with what we know at the moment.

This is all I have to say about this topic, and all I have to contribute to this thread. I'm not sure if I brought it off topic.....if so, my apologies.

Trapped

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Signs and wonders are different from what is, essentially, some kind of "pre-mark". These are two different things.

Maybe "foreshadow" is a better word.

Nell