No Place Like Hell

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

The job of the canonizers was to identify and remove Greek-influenced texts from the Bible.
Did they do a perfect job? No. Ecclesiastes probably should have been discarded, along with parts of Proverbs.

At the risk of sounding a bit flippant (UntoHim flippant...say it ain't so!) what renowned, reputable seminary or school of higher learning did you hear that "The job of the canonizers was to identify and remove Greek-influenced texts from the Bible"?

So I'm guessing you subscribe to the Thomas Jefferson view of the Scriptures....simply pull out your trusty razor and scissors and cut out the parts that you don't like. Timotheist, do you realize how dangerous this sounds? Where do you get off telling us what "probably should have been discarded"? I would expect much more cautious and temperate things from you.

Yes, some of the Jews were influenced by the Greco-Roman/Hellenistic culture and society around them, but do you really think that God would chose those who were most influenced, or those who were lest influenced to produce the Scriptures? Think about that.
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[manna-man]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

At the risk of sounding a bit flippant (UntoHim flippant...say it ain't so!) what renowned, reputable seminary or school of higher learning did you hear that "The job of the canonizers was to identify and remove Greek-influenced texts from the Bible"?

So I'm guessing you subscribe to the Thomas Jefferson view of the Scriptures....simply pull out your trusty razor and scissors and cut out the parts that you don't like. Timotheist, do you realize how dangerous this sounds? Where do you get off telling us what "probably should have been discarded"? I would expect much more cautious and temperate things from you.

Yes, some of the Jews were influenced by the Greco-Roman/Hellenistic culture and society around them, but do you really think that God would chose those who were most influenced, or those who were lest influenced to produce the Scriptures? Think about that.
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Dear brother Untohim,

It could be said that the renowned schools that you refer too and prolific teachers like Darby and others had a profound effect on the steering/teaching and adding to the gospel narrative.
(Such as the word hell and the imagery it paints on/in the brain...)

Shalom

[UntoHim]

Maybe you could refresh my memory, beloved brother manna-man, but I don't believe it was Darby or any seminary professor that brought us the following imagery:

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41,42

Are you in the school of thought that says that Jesus never said anything about the "fiery furnace"? I hope not. The actual anglicized word "hell" is not as important as the reality of what the Lord Jesus warned about in Matthew 13. Whatever anglicized word you use is of little consequence compared to the reality that there will be a final judgment. And there WILL BE weeping and there WILL BE gnashing of teeth. And those who will find themselves in this place will be without excuse, for "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". This is the Gospel message that was preached by the Lord Jesus, the Scripture writing apostles and the earliest of Christian believers, teachers and scholars.

Shalom to you as well
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[manna-man]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Maybe you could refresh my memory, beloved brother manna-man, but I don't believe it was Darby or any seminary professor that brought us the following imagery:

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41,42

Are you in the school of thought that says that Jesus never said anything about the "fiery furnace"? I hope not. The actual anglicized word "hell" is not as important as the reality of what the Lord Jesus warned about in Matthew 13. Whatever anglicized word you use is of little consequence compared to the reality that there will be a final judgment. And there WILL BE weeping and there WILL BE gnashing of teeth. And those who will find themselves in this place will be without excuse, for "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". This is the Gospel message that was preached by the Lord Jesus, the Scripture writing apostles and the earliest of Christian believers, teachers and scholars.

Shalom to you as well
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Untohim,

Nobody ever claimed nor made an assertion that there will be no final judgment or that the elements of fire wouldn't be used ever.

My point from the beginning was always [Eternal Torment] this anglicized word i don't use but dismiss for the use of it does have MAJOR consequence and effect on those who use it and abuse it.

I hope that emotions don't get the best of us here and I also hope as well that we can remain open for the discussion/fellowship.

Peace

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Nobody ever claimed nor made an assertion that there will be no final judgment or that the elements of fire wouldn't be used ever.

I didn't say, nor even faintly imply that you made such an assertion. Please read my posts a little more carefully!

My point from the beginning was always [Eternal Torment] this anglicized word i don't use but dismiss for the use of it does have MAJOR consequence and effect on those who use it and abuse it.

If you don't like the way certain words/terms have been used in the English translations then may I suggest that you go get yourself a PHD in the biblical languages, get yourself appointed to a bonafide, reputable translation team and make a difference, my man!

You know what has MAJOR consequences? When people try to change the actual words/terms used by the Lord Jesus and the Scripture writing apostles. This is dangerous. It is not a light thing to change, or even water down the Holy Scriptures to make them comport with our human sentiments. As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Do you know that there are some "modern" translators/interpreters who want to change this to read "Jacob I loved, but Esau I have loved less". My friends, this is exactly what some have tried to do with this issue of "hell".

I hope that emotions don't get the best of us here and I also hope as well that we can remain open for the discussion/fellowship.

Agreed.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Our little group is now covering Revelation 9 & 10, and yesterday a brother spoke about the wrath of God being poured out on mankind in this section of scripture. (We believers know that Jesus took the wrath of God for us, and people just need to look to Him and accept this Free Gift to escape God's wrath.) However, after experiencing many woeful calamities - clearly sent by God - in these chapters, it says men will refuse to repent!

What struck me from that was this: if people won't repent after experiencing these things, then will will it take?! That is, what more can God do? I have to say that after considering these things in this light, the "needle" moved away from universalism or annhilationism a pretty fair degree - if people are so stiff-necked after these extremely humbling things, then God will have no choice. He already has the right to kill those who sin, but in love, He poured His wrath on His Son, and now we must accept the Lamb's sacrifice.

And even the judgments in Revelation are a mercy, as I believe many will be saved as the "heat" is turned up in tribulation. But it also shows that some will harden themselves all the more. What a dangerous thing - there is a Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his angels, but scripture is clear that some people will wind up there. Lord Jesus! Some very unpleasant things must be done by God, and He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. (Ezekiel 18:23)

[SpeakersCorner]

The best argument to me against annihilationism is this: (read in the seductive, hoarse whispers of the serpent-inhabitor):

"Hey sinner man ... stop worrying about your sins. Go ahead, eat that entire pizza, smoke that cigarette, cheat on your wife, enjoy life. Because in the end, you die. Period. You just disappear like soap bubble meeting a pin. None of it matters. So eat, drink, and be merry. Because that's all there is."

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

If you don't like the way certain words/terms have been used in the English translations then may I suggest that you go get yourself a PHD in the biblical languages, get yourself appointed to a bonafide, reputable translation team and make a difference, my man!

We have two such translations that I am aware of: YLT and the NASB. There are others, but I have not studied them. They both chose to retain the names "Sheol", "Hades", and "Gehenna". The NASB has the word 'hell' in there once and only once, but it is used in place of none of these words. (that is the subject for another day).

Originally Posted by UntoHim

You know what has MAJOR consequences? When people try to change the actual words/terms used by the Lord Jesus and the Scripture writing apostles. This is dangerous. It is not a light thing to change, or even water down the Holy Scriptures to make them comport with our human sentiments. As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Do you know that there are some "modern" translators/interpreters who want to change this to read "Jacob I loved, but Esau I have loved less". My friends, this is exactly what some have tried to do with this issue of "hell".

Originally Posted by UntoHim

And who has done this? I have not. I dare say I am sticking to the real word more than you.

And BTW, I am still waiting to hear your defense, using the scriptures, that Hell is Satan's kingdom.

Good luck.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

At the risk of sounding a bit flippant (UntoHim flippant...say it ain't so!) what renowned, reputable seminary or school of higher learning did you hear that "The job of the canonizers was to identify and remove Greek-influenced texts from the Bible"?

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You may not like it, but that is exactly what they did! There was lots of junk written during the Greek period, and most of that was discounted as spurious.

The Apocryphal books are "the best of the worst", and even those we do not take as canon.

But keep in mind that the writers of the NT did not have a "canon". Jude cited Apocrypha in his opening verses. So what should we do with Jude?

In the epistle of Barnabus, he used the Phoenix as proof of the resurrection, as if the Phoenix was not a myth. Thank God that book was left out of the canon.

There are numerous examples of this, so I feel VERY justified in identifying those passages.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Timotheist, do you realize how dangerous this sounds?

UntoHim,

Your argument for a fiery Hell is well-taken but why demean the arguments of others as "Dangerous"? Timotheist is giving his view based on what seems to be a lot of study. This isn't dangerous at all.

What is dangerous, to me anyway, is the idea that we are not permitted by the guardians of truth to use our minds. Isn't that kind of your beef with the LR anyway, UntoHim ... that WL and his cohort shut up all debate?

SC

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Your argument for a fiery Hell is well-taken but why demean the arguments of others as "Dangerous"?

I'm not arguing for anything, much less a "fiery Hell". I simply quoted a verse, and this verse stands in stark contrast to some of the claims being made on this thread. Nothing more, nothing less.

Timotheist is giving his view based on what seems to be a lot of study. This isn't dangerous at all.

Witness Lee claimed the same thing for himself. Some of Lee's teachings are among the most dangerous out there. Nuff said on that for now.

What is dangerous, to me anyway, is the idea that we are not permitted by the guardians of truth to use our minds. Isn't that kind of your beef with the LR anyway, UntoHim ... that WL and his cohort shut up all debate?

Who has asked anyone not to use their minds? Please point me to the thread and post number and I'll deal with that pronto! In the meantime, don't look now, but I think you're debating right now! Just sayin....
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[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm not arguing for anything, much less a "fiery Hell" … In the meantime, don't look now, but I think you're debating right now! Just sayin....
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Concerning the “fiery Hell” comment, I read between the lines. It’s my gift.

As for the debating bit, touché. You win that point but I’ll be back. You know I will.