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#1 |
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Anyone ever wonder what would happen if Jo Casteel's letter was mysteriously disseminated on all the college campuses that TLR operates in?
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A Curious Fellow |
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#2 |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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That exposing letter and DCP’s retaliation became so toxic that her husband took his life. So sad. So tragic. How many lives have been destroyed to perpetuate LSM’s deceitful lies!
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#3 | |
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If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave. Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable. To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels. |
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#4 | |
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Welcome. Are you willing to stick around to dialog and actually contend with and answer for what you have written here? Trapped |
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#5 | |
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None of us had access to the enormous pressures that weighed on him. We don’t know what private phone calls or correspondence added stress beyond his ability to bear. Where were all the brothers he loved? Since when does brotherly love get tossed in the trash when someone speaks for the Lord in truth? Many of the Prophets also despaired of life. What the Lord moved in them to share was far more than they could bear. One day all those who protect abusers and sinners will be exposed. “Blessed are those who suffer for righteousness sake.”
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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#6 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
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A theme touched in this letter was the notion that we only make decisions based on what we already know. We can't make choices in an ether, or reach into a vacuum and make something. We can only use the ingredients we're given to create new things. We receive something, we use it, we build something new. Lacking information, we can neither objectively consider our current situation, nor evaluate options going forward. Joanna Casteel had been raised in the local churches and was fed a constant stream of one-sided information designed to make her a thoughtless and reflexive consumer and promoter of ministry propaganda. She was repeatedly told that only Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had anything worthwhile to say, and even her own thoughts had to be checked against ministry teachings. She was denied the fundamental tools of self-governance. But onto that monolithic structure, she got exposed to the concept of ethics at University. She saw that it's unethical to ask people to make decisions while deliberately withholding relevant information. She recognized the deceptive recruiting practices of the Living Stream Ministry operatives for what they were. Their dependent relation on Witness Lee is initially hidden: "We're just Christians; we just love Jesus and are open to all Christians", is the opening gambit, until relationships are set. Then, bit by bit, the LSM gets introduced, and other sources of information are systematically discouraged, and submerged. That recognition of deceptive practices was the slenderest of threads... Jo had been mentally conditioned, including years of immersive "training" at the FTTA, not to trust her own discernment, yet as a professional she was required to exercise discernment. So, something had to change. And that requirement to observe, to note, to discern, and to report, ultimately forced the Casteel family to exit the local church. Quote:
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One of the stalwarts of the current LSM regime is seen urging young people (at the 30 minute mark, here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ww7m_5BTs )to access a wide variety of reading sources, and to make the effort and trust their capacity to figure things out for themselves. Information gives us choices, that we didn't realize were there. Here's another one: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/fe...-remarks-chan/ Quote:
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' Last edited by aron; 08-13-2023 at 06:32 AM. |
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#7 | |
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Local church is a place if you even consider leaving, you better count the costs. Just know that your decision will cost you everything and everyone you knew for decades, including your family, and in many cases own children/spouses and friends. They destroy your life first, then when you lose your mental ability to continue, they will claim that you are week/confused/depressed/weak vessel. What a fools, and disgraceful ones at that. They will even throw in demon possessed to feel better about themselves! Make my blood boil! The amount of blood local church has on its hands is plenty enough to be silent and ashamed, but NO, they are out there claiming to be God-men! |
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#8 | ||
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IN THEIR OWN WORDS! And they call this "the Lord's recovery"? Don't blame this on the Lord. If anyone is looking for a reason to get out of that place, here it is...in black and white. Read it a few times (if you can). Is this the kind of person you want to become? Is this even Christian? Is this the voice of the good shepherd who laid down his life for his sheep? Is this what you call being "recovered"? This should help you find the door, or, this should help you to avoid this place like the plague that it is. Then there's this "May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels." Wow. Spoken like a true Pharisee. Those of us who were there and left know the attitude well. I just never imagined they would say it out loud. Quote:
Nell |
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#9 | ||
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"If you do not like it here, you can leave." Quote:
And boy will I have a laugh if you respond with something akin to "I am a psychologist."
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A Curious Fellow |
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#10 |
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If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”. I understand that this isn’t a Biblical text to expound upon or something that is or was said by Biblical author. However, for those of us who have been in this movement, it hits close to home every time. The mastery and wizardry of Witness Lee to revolutionize the basic principles of application and reading of scriptures, (never mind the specific words of Jesus himself), and to punctuate and replace all tangible, meaningful things that pertain to every human need while in this world such as love, care, natural affection, friendships, relationships etc, with some life in the mystical realm as only a way of “God’s economy or God’s heart desire”, is a travesty and abomination!
Reading and seeing so many people struggling to cope with the devastating consequences and results of this ministry, especially younger generation, should be of critical importance to the current authority in place, but they just toss those people like lab rats to the side, as if the experiment on them has failed, and they aren’t very good building material to be a part of the “Bride”. This is the time you start questioning your own sanity, and asking, “God, where are You?”! Why are these men get to use such beautiful and loving name and create such a devastating group? Your answers to these questions maybe as good as mine, “they are so spiritual minded, they are no earthly good”! When the salt loses its flavor, it’s not good for any use. I suggest for the men that run this group, to spent some time in the first four gospels of New Testament, and see what and how Jesus while in this world expressed God, and what He did everyday that we have an account of in these writings. There wasn’t much mystical about it, and people loved him for it. |
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#11 | |
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But that's not what drew people, not obscurantism and word play. He healed people. He fed people. God's love for the world was on full display not in theology but in human action. That was the magnet. They endured the weird teaching because they loved him. In the local church we just got weird teaching. As if that was somehow what it was all about. Someone started a thread here once, "Not many Christians know" and quoted all the sayings from WL like this. How he was the only one who'd seen this or that, or knew this or that. Usually it was either some warmed-over 19th century Sunday School lesson, or something he made up on the fly. One time I googled "Witness Lee center of the universe" and it was amazing, what turned up. I think he must have given a message on this once, and it so wowed the crowd that he did it again, with different center! That went boffo, and he did it again! But they all contradicted each other! Didn't matter, though, as long as the crowd got a buzz.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#12 |
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I apologize if my terms seem dismissive or disrespectful. I meant 'weird' in the manner that Jesus' "you must be born again" was weird to Nicodemus. It was new, challenging, strange, and difficult to process conceptually.
The forum is called Local Church Discussions and to facilitate discussions I shouldn't be so quick with terms that seem to make good copy. That may drive away people, instead of encouraging discussion amongst different mindsets. A discussion isn't a one-sided imposition of thoughts and values, or a debate where one wins and the other says, "We were wrong". Instead, it's a mutual learning opportunity. If I want others to learn from me, I have to choose words that demonstrate openness and learning behaviour.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#13 | |
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14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder. Isn't Gnosticism also similar to the all of Lee's "too spiritual" mumbo jumbo?
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#14 | |
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One would say the recovery is not for everyone. Yet when a brother or sister does leave, a change in attitude is transparent. An aggressive attitude. |
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#15 |
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I feel that, TLFisher. They're very "patient" (i.e. passive-aggressive), but when you aren't "open to the fellowship" (i.e. willing to immediately drop the issue and get over it), then they aren't so "patient" anymore and are forced to protect "the flow of life" (i.e. put you out because you're ruining the good vibes by questioning Lee's doctrines).
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#16 | |
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Many years have I spent in the local church, under the influence of the “wise master builder”. I have developed an attitude of dismissal and almost to the point of modern day “Cancel Culture” when it comes to Christianity and others outside our group. Constantly and almost daily reminder’s in the writings of the ministry of LSM, plus countless voices of those around you, foster this culture of “who got it better than us?”. It’s only when you get out of it, it hits you like a load of bricks that there are people who actually got things to hear and consider, outside of this group. In Proverbs 11:14 says, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” My realization that the people of LC, have abandoned this basic principles, and besides LSM and their lies, there is no counsel! There is no multitude, it’s ether Witness and LSM, or else! The safety net has been removed, and replaced by a barb wired electric fence, that as soon as you come near sounds a WARNING ⚠️ “You leave this ministry, you are leaving God!”. Although members of this movement will claim that there is a multitude of men in their midst that will often offer counsel, it’s the source of all of their claims and statements that stands out like a broken nose. Michael Horton had an interesting quote, which says “Nobody goes to the Bible alone, but carries with him or her a host of influences. It is infinitely easier to distort the Word of God when we cut ourselves off from the consensus of other Christians across time and place.” There have been many posts here that document all of the things and writings, messages and talks from the blended, that precisely cut off all of the other Christians who speak today and those that came before. Why? Because it’s easier to distort, change, add and remove from Scriptures, when the people only have a single point of reference. You are correct on a lot these points you make, unfortunately the people in this movement have been trained to ignore all who speak to this issue. |
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#17 | |
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Thanks-- Nell Admin/Moderator |
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#18 | |
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Best, HERn
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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#19 | |
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Having lived through all that , why would I want to raise my children in the Local Church environment? It's not healthy. That's why when asked if my children would go to Summer School of Truth, I declined. Though they think to be well-meaning, I didn't trust them to have my children's best intentions at heart. Problems that exist in the Local Churches, those in the lead don't want change. It's been said by a late elder, "The local churches is not going to change for anybody." |
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#20 |
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Have we discussed the letter from the co-workers that was written in response to Jo Casteel's letter?
I mean... I suppose it's pretty much the same thing as the "Special Fellowship" in essence, but I just wanted to make sure it's logged here.
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A Curious Fellow |
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#21 | |
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I stopped, retreated at this message: (Malware blocked. Site URL : juk.au9a3rqmvg.com Malware URL :juk.au9a3rqmvg.com Potentially malicious activity has been blocked. However, you can still safely continue to view this site while using Browser Guard.). My (naive) question is: Was this website link posted incorrectly, or has it since been somehow hacked/compromised by an external agent?
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See my My Testimony: on how one can practice standing INDIVIDUALLY on the ground of oneness, among any group, inside or outside the “Recovery”. I shall not judge (praise or denigrate) any leadership or church group, but I can and will judge their words and their works. (Matt 7:1-2; 23:3). |
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