Prophecy - The End Times

[Nell]

Jack Hibbs:

Things have snowballed in such a way that, frankly, I never thought I would see it this way. Global economic peril. Global border issues. Global lawlessness and global threat of terrorism...the things that the Bible has warned about is coming to pass at the exact time—across the board. We are living in the time of the signs. It’s amazing.

This movie was released in 2017. Add to this in the last 5 years:

Global pandemic.
"Global warming" cult? Hoax? The increase of natural disasters could easily be seen as the result of "Global Warming" while in blatant ignorance of the prophecies of just such events.

Keys:
*Global wars, not regional.
*The clock began to tick on May 12, 1948 when Israel became a nation again..."this generation that saw this happen, will not pass away until..."
* When you see ALL THESE THINGS take place...simultaneously, globally, with increasing frequency and intensity...LOOK UP!
* We could never validly say "He could return any time" until Israel became a nation in 1948.

Don't mess around and blow this one off!

Free on Tubi.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Keys:
*Global wars, not regional.
*The clock began to tick on May 12, 1948 when Israel became a nation again..."this generation that saw this happen, will not pass away until..."
* When you see ALL THESE THINGS take place...simultaneously, globally, with increasing frequency and intensity...LOOK UP!
l

This verse has long been quoted in the attempt to roughly date the Lord's return:

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Matt 24

This prophecy has been endlessly discussed since 1948. In 1973 I was told the end must occur by 1988 since a generation is 40 years. But perhaps it means, not the length of time of "this" generation following the inception of the restored nation of Israel. Could it mean that this is the final generation of Israel, that will never pass away or be again exiled? To date, Israel has been exiled into Egypt, then by Assyria, then by Babylon, and lastly by the Romans.

Since this section of scripture concerns the end times, tribulation, and His 2nd Coming, this prophecy may have been wrongly interpreted. Every time Israel has been exiled, they believed it could never happen to them due to their covenant with Jehovah. These covenants are guaranteed by the promises of Jehovah, yet secured as blessing based on Israel's faithfulness, or not.

The previous attacks on Israel will pale in comparison to what is prophesied in the Apocalypse. Tribulation as never before. 200 Million horsemen from the east. The Revelation Beast animated by a beast from the Abyss. Bloodshed of the wine press 200 miles long. Neither with Egypt, nor Assyria, nor Babylon, nor Antioches Epiphanees, nor Roman Titus, nor the Hitler Holocaust did Israel ever face extermination like this.

Yet the Lord promises "this generation will not pass away."

[Nell]

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?

Good question.

I think, as time progresses, all believers will be asking, “when is the rapture we were promised.” How many times have I heard, “I don’t plan to be here when things get bad”?

Then the nations will begin to mock the believers. (2 Peter 3.4)

Will the false promises by lying prophets set us up for “The Apostasy?” (2 Thess 2)

I recently studied some the beginnings of the general acceptance of Pre-Trib Rapture popularized initially by J.N.Darby. The original Brethren split began with end times differences between Darby and B. W. Newton. Newton’s teaching on the Parable of the Tares was fairly persuasive. At least to me. None of the Exclusives would agree though.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Nell

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?

We'd have to define "tribulation" first. Has that been done/attempted on this thread? There's tribulation, and then there's "The Tribulation." Is there tribulation? Of course. Is there gonna be a "The Tribulation"? A tribulation to end all tribulations? I believe so, which is really scary considering everything that has happened so far. If I believe there is a "The Tribulation," do I believe it has happened yet? No. Do I believe the believers in Christ will be "taken away" before a "The Tribulation" happens? For the most part, at the very least, yes. But the scriptures also speak of the Antichrist "overcoming the saints." If there is a pre-tribulation rapture, are these saints Christians who were left behind for some reason? Are they people who came to the faith after the rapture (if we are building on the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture). Are they "the remnant" of Israel that come to believe in Christ after the rapture? So many questions.

I guess if I wanted to make this a bit simpler, I'd say... "I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. No scriptures or scriptural arguments that I have heard or read lead me to believe that anyone will get 'left behind,' though I am not rabidly opposed to the notion. Either way, God's people are called to live by faith, and that doesn't change regardless of when the rapture occurs. However, since my understanding favors a pre-tribulation rapture, I have come to believe that the rapture has not yet happened because we have not yet come close enough to a 'The Tribulation' despite having many tribulations."

That's my $2, anyhow.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

We'd have to define "tribulation" first. Has that been done/attempted on this thread? ...
That's my $2, anyhow.

ACF,

Yes. "tribulation" has been discussed, but I don't know that a definition was needed. "Prophecy - The End Times" seemed to be clear. This is a well established topic with 353+ posts on end times prophecy.

So..."tribulation", in this context, is "the great tribulation". The prophets, Jesus himself in Matthew 24, and John in the book of Revelation discuss "the great tribulation".

Based on current events and Biblical prophecy, covered in the movie The Coming Convergence, do you believe we are, or could be, in the beginning stages of the great tribulation? After watching the movie, if you haven't already, do you still "lean toward" the concept of pre-tribulation rapture of the believers?

Another question, if the "great tribulation" is NOT underway (to some extent) when it does begin, what would it look like? What signs are you looking for? What signs would change your mind? The referenced movie makes a pretty clear case that (at least) the beginning of the end is underway.

If so, another question...if the great tribulation has begun, what does that do to the doctrine of "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"?

Nell

[Nell]

Inputs about the (Pre-Tribulation) Rapture
Preface: I am clear that I don’t know when the rapture will occur because I know that God can do what He plans to do. Based on what is revealed in Scripture and God’s character, I do place a high likelihood on the ekklesia being present on the earth for a significant portion of the Great Tribulation. I would prefer a pre-tribulational rapture, but I cannot see how it lines up with what the Bible says.

I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture. I believe it is important to know that God keeps things secret and that it is best for us to have readiness to respond and adapt to whatever happens. Our faith is not founded in our position about rapture. It is a lesser theological item which will become plain as future events unfold. I have found these two passages to be the most relevant as far as establishing a healthy mindset about Christ’s Second Coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:6–9 (LEB)
6 So then, we must not sleep like the rest, but must be on the alert and be self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But because we are of the day, we must be sober, by putting on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation, 9 because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Luke 21:34–36 (LEB)
34 “But take care for yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of daily life, and that day come upon you suddenly 35 like a trap. For it will come upon all who reside on the face of the whole earth. 36 But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

If I escape all of the Great Tribulation, I will rejoice along with the rest of the ekklesia. If I do not escape all of the Great Tribulation, then I will continue trusting in the Lord day by day to lead and guide me (and others I know) through this perilous time. In this case, I pray the Lord grant me excellent hearing, humble repentance and even better obedience to His voice as the best way through each day.

_____________
These inputs from Matt continue in the attached .pdf.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would prefer a pre-tribulational rapture, but I cannot see how it lines up with what the Bible says.

I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture.

If I escape all of the Great Tribulation, I will rejoice along with the rest of the ekklesia. If I do not escape all of the Great Tribulation, then I will continue trusting in the Lord day by day to lead and guide me (and others I know) through this perilous time. In this case, I pray the Lord grant me excellent hearing, humble repentance and even better obedience to His voice as the best way through each day.

I think it would be wise that all the children of God adopt this daily attitude. Unfortunately many have adopted what I would consider a somewhat cavalier attitude towards the Great Tribulation. Comments like, “I don’t plan to be here during this time,” or “we have nothing to worry about, God will rapture us all to heaven before things get bad,” are far too prevalent. It seems that many American church-goers have never faced real adversity, and may face shocking developments. I hope not.

But this is the scenario that may set us up for “The Apostasy” which Paul speaks of in 2 Thess 2. He assured the Thessalonians that the “day of the Lord” will not come until “the apostasy” comes first. Why would many “leave their stand,” the meaning of apostasy? Paul does not refer to some rebellion by worldly people, but a departure of those who once professed the faith.

Facing unexpected tribulation, while completely expecting to be delivered from it, might cause many to cave under pressure. One Bible commentary used the word “capitulation” to describe the apostasy. In other words, it seems that some, or many, will renege on their faith in exchange for temporary comfort or safety. Such could be envisioned for those who accept the mark of the Beast.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So..."tribulation", in this context, is "the great tribulation". The prophets, Jesus himself in Matthew 24, and John in the book of Revelation discuss "the great tribulation".

Based on current events and Biblical prophecy, covered in the movie The Coming Convergence, do you believe we are, or could be, in the beginning stages of the great tribulation? After watching the movie, if you haven't already, do you still "lean toward" the concept of pre-tribulation rapture of the believers?

Another question, if the "great tribulation" is NOT underway (to some extent) when it does begin, what would it look like? What signs are you looking for? What signs would change your mind? The referenced movie makes a pretty clear case that (at least) the beginning of the end is underway.

If so, another question...if the great tribulation has begun, what does that do to the doctrine of "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"?

Nell

Nell, the Bible is pretty specific about the Great Tribulation. Jesus said the G.T. will begin (Mt 24.21) after the "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, standing in the holy place." (Mt 24.15; Daniel 9.27) This will occur in the middle of the last week of years spoken of by Daniel.

The length of time of the G.T. will be 1/2 of 7 years, or 3.5 years (Dan 7.25; Rev 12.14), and is also referred to as 42 months (Rev 11.2; 13.5), and 1,260 days (Rev 11.3; 12.6)

The abomination of desolation at the Temple in Israel should correspond with the "revelation of the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction," spoken of by Paul. (2 Thess 2.3)


This time of the G.T. does not mean there will be no "tribulation," natural or supernatural calamities, or persecution prior to it.